Msw and Assessments trainings

[Danagirl]

I have already seen a couple different threads that have broken the myth that a LCSW can’t do assessments provided they have training. There’s this idea LCSW can only do “certain trainings” but legally I see no evidence that LCSW is limited provided they have the training. This is even mentioned on another thread where someone’s contacted the state board of California Social workers.

As someone who spent much post BA time in formal trainings in another field I am transitioning out of I know there’s generally no shortage of classes if you need a respected high quality training on a professional subject.

**Does anyone have reccomendations for classes or schools that have a strong assessment training for MSW? Or what to look for in listed assessment classes? If in California all the better but I am open to other states as long as they are accredited.***

*Also, Please no PHD’s coming in just to go on and on about how you are the only ones who could or should do assessments. Because truly for every good Psychologist there’s still a dozen of bad ones who got the same apa training but are just simply subpar students and workers. The reality is a specific degree and even school does not guarantee quality care and we should all be continuously learning anyway. Doctorates are not financially worth it for everyone.

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[futureapppsy2]

I don't think anyone here is going to tell you do something that an MSW program doesn't train you to do--and MSW programs don't train you to do psych assessment. True assessment is difficult and honed over lots of supervised training, along with a good knowledge of psychometrics and differential diagnosis. MSW programs simply don't have the time or coursework to train you in that.

 

[Danagirl]

I don't think anyone here is going to tell you do something that an MSW program doesn't train you to do--and MSW programs don't train you to do psych assessment.MSW programs simply don't have the time or coursework to train you in that.

that’s not true some colleges have already been posted as having classes SPECIFICALLY for training MSW to do assessments. But I do realize the limits and personal interests of people on this forum to refuse to recognize those.

 

[R. Matey]

that’s not true some colleges have already been posted as having classes SPECIFICALLY for training MSW to do assessments. But I do realize the limits and personal interests of people on this forum to refuse to recognize those.

It's not a bias. Assessment takes years to learn how to do well. Just because someone offers a class that tours a master's student through CTT and explains some typical tests that psychologists use does not make those students qualified to conduct psychological testing. In my opinion, if you don't know how to construct a valid and reliable test from scratch, you have no business trying to interpret them. That's not even getting into the content areas of some tests, which also might take years to be able to understand. Can master's students use symptom measures? Sure--so long they understand the criteria. But cognitive and personality measures are a whole different ball game.

 

[futureapppsy2]

It's not a bias. Assessment takes years to learn how to do well. Just because someone offers a class that tours a master's student through CTT and explains some typical tests that psychologists use does not make those students qualified to conduct psychological testing. In my opinion, if you don't know how to construct a valid and reliable test from scratch, you have no business trying to interpret them. That's not even getting into the content areas of some tests, which also might take years to be able to understand. Can master's students use symptom measures? Sure--so long they understand the criteria. But cognitive and personality measures are a whole different ball game.

Seconding this. I’ve taught masters-level assessment classes. They are decent for teaching masters-level clinicians how to read assessment reports that they get for clients and interpret basic symptom screening measures, but they don’t teach you nearly enough to be a competent assessor.

 

[counselor2b]

As a masters level therapist myself, I also have interest in “assessment”, however, I know my limitations. In my grad program I took 2 assessment courses, however, this in no way prepared me to be able to interpret the results of advanced assessments or tests or know which tests to choose. I certainly feel like I am well prepared to consume the information and generally understand it, but I recognize it is out of my lane. Just because you may be able to “legally” do something does not mean it is necessarily a great idea. My state does allow masters level therapists essentially full reign to offer psychometric testing independently if able to demonstrate competence through supervised hours and specific coursework while under the supervision of a licensed psychologist. However, once those hurdles are complete, I would still be significantly limited. Insurance is not likely going to reimburse me, if any of my reports went to court, I imagine the opposing side would likely try to discredit me for not having the appropriate training. I suppose you could open up shop on your own and do cash, but why would someone want to work with us when they can work with someone else that checks all the boxes. Now if we are talking about general mood screeners, getting a thorough history, suicide assessment, these are fairly common for us masters level folks and can be done competently as long as you are trained.

However, we really have no business treading on turf that falls outside of our wheelhouse. If you want to practice like a psychoIogist you really should complete the requisite training. I fear that this is the type of practice only creates further divide between our professions. As masters level therapists, we need to showcase what makes us unique and separates us from all other mental health providers. Different does not make us less than.

Another way to look at it. Just because my family practice physician has an unrestricted medical license and completed a surgical elective does not mean I will be going to them for brain surgery. Just because they can does not mean they should.

Best of luck in whatever you do. Obviously you can choose to pursue this training and practice however you wish. Just be aware of the possible consequences and risks you could place yourself and your patients in.

 

[erg923]

*Also, Please no PHD’s coming in just to go on and on about how you are the only ones who could or should do assessments. Because truly for every good Psychologist there’s still a dozen of bad ones who got the same apa training but are just simply subpar students and workers. The reality is a specific degree and even school does not guarantee quality care and we should all be continuously learning anyway.

This a ridiculous request. No one ever learned anything by telling the people who already do the thing they want to do (for like a 100 years now) essentially "zip it, cause you guys don't know what the F you are talking about." What a dumb thing to say.

 

[Danagirl]

This a ridiculous request. No one ever learned anything by telling the people who already do the thing they want to do (for like a 100 years now) essentially "zip it, cause you guys don't know what the F you are talking about." What a dumb thing to say.

Your opinion because that is not in conjunction to what I am asking about for LCSW’s. I’ve seen many PhD focused people already speak untruths on other threads in regards to LCSW not to help anyone but for turf protection and assumptions. No one ever learned from people hell bent on keeping you in a box either. Hence I am asking on a sub forum for non-psychologist licenses how they handle this or what they know as practitioners with these specific trainings and licenses. Yet you come in with no information or contribution or example of experience. So you can keep your “dumb” to yourself too.

 

[Danagirl]

As a masters level therapist myself, I also have interest in “assessment”, however, I know my limitations. In my grad program I took 2 assessment courses, however, this in no way prepared me to be able to interpret the results of advanced assessments or tests or know which tests to choose. I certainly feel like I am well prepared to consume the information and generally understand it, but I recognize it is out of my lane. Just because you may be able to “legally” do something does not mean it is necessarily a great idea. My state does allow masters level therapists essentially full reign to offer psychometric testing independently if able to demonstrate competence through supervised hours and specific coursework while under the supervision of a licensed psychologist. However, once those hurdles are complete, I would still be significantly limited. Insurance is not likely going to reimburse me, if any of my reports went to court, I imagine the opposing side would likely try to discredit me for not having the appropriate training. I suppose you could open up shop on your own and do cash, but why would someone want to work with us when they can work with someone else that checks all the boxes. Now if we are talking about general mood screeners, getting a thorough history, suicide assessment, these are fairly common for us masters level folks and can be done competently as long as you are trained.

However, we really have no business treading on turf that falls outside of our wheelhouse. If you want to practice like a psychoIogist you really should complete the requisite training. I fear that this is the type of practice only creates further divide between our professions. As masters level therapists, we need to showcase what makes us unique and separates us from all other mental health providers. Different does not make us less than.

Another way to look at it. Just because my family practice physician has an unrestricted medical license and completed a surgical elective does not mean I will be going to them for brain surgery. Just because they can does not mean they should.

Best of luck in whatever you do. Obviously you can choose to pursue this training and practice however you wish. Just be aware of the possible consequences and risks you could place yourself and your patients in.

thank you this was insighful. I plan to contact Medicare and get some more thorough information as some of their paperwork did cover LCSW ability to: “furnish services to diagnose and treat mental illness” but that is vague @75% of physician fee schedule.

In terms of the other assessments you mentioned: “Now if we are talking about general mood screeners, getting a thorough history, suicide assessment, these are fairly common for us masters level folks and can be done competently as long as you are trained.”
In your experience do Medicare and other insurance cover these for LCSW license where you are? The state laws do have a large effect because I see on another medicare document In some states even psychologist can’t do assessments of two codes but in others they can same with LCSW. In California, psychiatrists must be used for tests many other states hire psychologists for to qualify for Medicare reimbursement. I am still researching to see if this is state law related or just Medicare medical choice. And also researching what other insurances are saying. Here I see about one psychologist job one for every 5-7 MFT/ LCSW. Half the psychology jobs are also open to mft/LCSW so if the state or state insurance board are putting restrictions on higher level reimbursement this is something I plan to take in consideration in terms of which university program to choose masters license track vs PhD. PhD is twice the debt with less than half the opportunities outside of starting your own private practice. And having your own business is like setting yourself up well in the jungle.

 

[R. Matey]

I’ve seen many PhD focused people already speak untruths on other threads in regards to LCSW not to help anyone but for turf protection and assumptions.

This just doesn't even make sense. What lies are we telling you? You're getting feedback from people who have taught master's level students how to interpret assessments that this doesn't make them qualified to conduct psychological testing as an independent evaluator. I've taken six graduate credits in cognitive and behavioral neuroscience and I know that I'm not qualified to prescribe psychiatric medication and conduct neuropsychological assessments independently without more training and supervision. Exposure does not equal automatic competence.

Like @counselor2b I had no trouble saying what I did or did not know when I was practicing at the master's level. I am an LPC and I understand how the limitations can be frustrating. I practiced independently for several years before I decided I wanted more for my career, which is why I went for a Ph.D. Back then, I gave screeners all of the time in my clinical practice to track outcomes, which you are absolutely free to do. I'd say if someone wants to do cognitive, educational, neuropsychological, or personality assessment, the path to get there is a Ph.D./Psy.D. I don't know why this is hard.

state laws do have a large effect because I see on another medicare document In some states even psychologist can’t do assessments of two codes but in others they can same with LCSW.

States codify these kind of rules to save themselves money. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this is an acceptable practice. Laws represent the lowest level of what's ethical to do. It's legal to get blindly drunk alone, for a 50 year old to marry an 18 year old, and to gamble away your 401k. It doesn't mean that it should be done.

 

[counselor2b]

thank you this was insighful. I plan to contact Medicare and get some more thorough information as some of their paperwork did cover LCSW ability to: “furnish services to diagnose and treat mental illness” but that is vague @75% of physician fee schedule.

In terms of the other assessments you mentioned: “Now if we are talking about general mood screeners, getting a thorough history, suicide assessment, these are fairly common for us masters level folks and can be done competently as long as you are trained.”
In your experience do Medicare and other insurance cover these for LCSW license where you are? The state laws do have a large effect because I see on another medicare document In some states even psychologist can’t do assessments of two codes but in others they can same with LCSW. In California, psychiatrists must be used for tests many other states hire psychologists for to qualify for Medicare reimbursement. I am still researching to see if this is state law related or just Medicare medical choice. And also researching what other insurances are saying. Here I see about one psychologist job one for every 5-7 MFT/ LCSW. Half the psychology jobs are also open to mft/LCSW so if the state or state insurance board are putting restrictions on higher level reimbursement this is something I plan to take in consideration in terms of which university program to choose masters license track vs PhD. PhD is twice the debt with less than half the opportunities outside of starting your own private practice. And having your own business is like setting yourself up well in the jungle.

To be honest, I am Not entirely sure, but I have not really seen anyone try to bill for the types of assessments or screeners I am talking about. I will often use a BAI BDI/PHQ-9 or PCL-5 as tools during my initial session and at subsequent reviews more so as another metric to show progress in symptom reduction, for the patient to see. In my current role, we do not bill insurance so I am somewhat removed on the current practices. When I was completing my internship at a private practice I did not see my supervisor or any of the other therapists billing for that, and I am not sure that they could. Perhaps someone more enlightened than myself could answer. However, I do know that LCSWs generally have a leg up on other mid level providers As they can bill Medicare whereas I am unable to under an LPC license.

If you live in CA I imagine the job propspects are probably not as great whether you are a psychologist or LCSW. From everything I hear it is a saturated market. The more reputable PhD programs should not cost you anything. Most have a tuition waiver and a stipend. However, the for profit programs in California are likely going to cost an exhorbitant amount of money and generally do not have as great of reputations.

Also, any job that is hiring for a psychologist or LCSW/LPC/LMFT likely does not understand the difference in professions and their scopes, which to me would be a red flag.

 

[deleted343839]

In your experience do Medicare and other insurance cover these for LCSW license where you are?

Are you talking about billing for administering symptom questionnaires to supplement your initial interview? No one pays for that above and beyond the reimbursement for the initial diagnostic encounter. Medicare will pay for an annual depression screening but (1) the reimbursement is tiny and (2) this is for the primary care setting.

There are more complicated assessment batteries and protocols (e.g., of developmental disorders, cognitive disorders, etc.) for which a psychologist can receive reimbursement for testing and test interpretation specifically. But those are out of the scope of practice for a social worker.

PhD is twice the debt with less than half the opportunities

I don't think you understand as much about the profession as you claim. It is in fact quite common to graduate from a PhD program with little or no debt, excluding those who attend for-profit schools (many of which have a marginal reputation). There is nothing wrong with direct service jobs that are open to PhDs or LCSWs, but they are not highly competitive positions for psychologists because they tend to be low-paying as clinical jobs go. Teaching, specialty practice, research, and faculty-level jobs typically require a doctoral degree.

 

[WisNeuro]

Twice the debt? Tell that to the more than a third of clinical psych PhD grads who have a doctorate with 0 debt. Talk about "untruths." I'm just waiting for the OP to link clinical psych to QAnon at this point.

 

[Danagirl]

I actually meant psyD*. Many of the PhDs are funded, whether it’s realistic to live on the stipend for the PhD is another story.

 

[Danagirl]

Twice the debt? Tell that to the more than a third of clinical psych PhD grads who have a doctorate with 0 debt. Talk about "untruths." I'm just waiting for the OP to link clinical psych to QAnon at this point.

the fact that you even bring up something like Qanon into this conversation says more about you than me...

 

[WisNeuro]

the fact that you even bring up something like Qanon into this conversation says more about you than me...

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Mod Note: Let's try to steer it back to the original topic of the thread, all. Thanks.

 

[foreverbull]

As said by others, symptoms screeners are not the type of assessments that get a separate assessment code, per my understanding; they’re just going to be coded as your regular psychotherapy session (90837, etc.) unless it’s an initial intake/evaluation, which has its own code.

I am also someone who obtained a master’s before a doctorate and my “assessment” training was one class in which the types of assessments were introduced, not practiced or used. Some master’s programs will offer more depth, but as I tend to say in here, confidence does not equal competence. Many of my PhD colleagues and I had extensive assessment training but do not offer assessments due to recognizing that we’re a bit rusty at this point and would need to pay for consultation/supervision to further ensure competent assessment practice. Part of what doctoral programs train folks to do is to stay in our lanes and be aware of what we don’t know and need further training to do. My master’s program did quite the opposite: it trained us to think we could do anything and treat anyone based on some supportive therapy techniques that we learned—they barely mentioned the whole competence issue in ethics. It was like night and day.

It’s a red flag to me if a 2-year training program doesn’t adequately train students to recognize their own limitations, while a 5-7 year program with extensive training provides a more cautious training approach. To be fair, this is anecdotal, but reflects some of what I see amongst colleagues with different training levels.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yet you come in with no information or contribution or example of experience. So you can keep your “dumb” to yourself too.

Many of us hire mid-level clinicians and have taught in MS programs, which are both related. What you are asking about is not within the scope of MSW programs. /Guy who has helped write state-level educational requirements codifying scope of practice.

 

[PikminOC]

Psychologists can now prescribe in a few states. You can learn psych testing

 

[faelivren]

as a master's level clinical (LMSW), the only 'assessments' I feel well trained to do are psychosocial assessments. I really agree that master's level training lacks rigor and supervision required for proficiency in most areas, and is more of a 'generalist' /broad based degree. completely different skill set. Not that is not helpful (I feel especially well trained in social policy, policy analysis) but in terms of other clinical work, I recognize that I would need additional training as an MSW is the beginning. That doesn't mean I don't have the potential or capacity to become highly skilled but potential and actual skill are not the same.