MSIII rotations

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BrooklynDO

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Can anyone give me any advice as to whether to do an outside pmr elective in the ny area?
Basically the in house elective is at NUMC and the local "choices" include nyu, kessler, einstein's program.
thanks for any advice you may have.
(Drvlad, any ideas on the situation, since you are apparently an upperclassman of mine?)

Also, how much if at all would an omm fellowship help for pmr
thanks
~Brooklyn,
"the more you know , the less you understand" ~TAo te Ching

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BrooklynDO,

Thus far, I finished a PM&R elective at JFK Johnson Rehab in Edison, NJ. I loved this rotation and it confirmed that I want to go into PM&R. I spent 2 weeks at the Brain Trauma Unit. The program has an excellent TBI model system. I learned a lot from Dr. Malone, DO at the BTU. The rest of time was outpatient clinic, Prosthetics and Orthotics, wheelchair, pain management. This is an excellent student rotation. JFK has the nicest people and I felt at home at this hospital. It definitely has no inferiority complex to Kessler. It is a solid residency program. 100% board pass rate. The program director, Sarah Cuccurulo, has just written the board review book for PM&R. The residents have landed prestigious fellowships in fields like pain management. They really get you to enjoy your PM&R experience.

Currently, I am at NYU Rusk Institute. Contrary to common opinions about this program, I actually like this rotation. You definitely work harder, especially at PGY2 level. Rusk is a huge rehab hospital (about 170 beds) and unfortunately you do overnight calls as a resident by yourself. It does get better after PGY2. There is a high volume of patients at both Rusk and Bellevue. As a student, I do inpatient morning rounds at Rusk and outpatient clinic at Bellevue, as well as Cardiac Rehab and MDA. I think Bellevue is where the real patients are at (e.g. the underserved, uninsured, etc.). Working mainly with the attending, Dr. Moroz, is awesome. He is a very personable guy and really knows his stuff. He does an awesome every Wednesday morning with physical exam rounds. Today, we did a hands-on musculoskeletal examination of the knee. There is a lot of NYCOM alumni that you feel very welcome. Dr. Thistle, the program director, is a pleasant guy to talk with. I look forward to have my interview with him at the end of the rotation. Honestly, the facilities at Rusk look old compared many PM&R programs. Everybody is very nice despite having a busy work environment.

I heard that Mt. Sinai is okay but little overrated. SCI is very good over there. The Manhattan programs tend to be longer work hours compared to out-of-state programs. St. Vincent's is a tiny program that is narrow in that they gear resident's toward outpatient musculoskeletal. I've met students in my NYU PM&R rotation that have rotated at Einstein-Montefiore. The workload is the same as most NYC PM&R program. The program is not that bad. You may like the Montefiore program as long as you like living in the Bronx. Cornell-Columbia seems to be an up and coming program that will soon be the best in NYC besides Kessler. Overall, the NYC (New York) programs are okay but probably ranks lower than programs in Philly, NJ, and Chicago.

This is very important, most of the NYC programs tend to take residents who have done a medical student rotation at that hospital. Pick very carefully where you imagine going. NYU definitely overwhelmingly favor students who have rotated there. I would avoid NUMC or any LI PM&R program. The programs there are weak and unstable.

I'm sure that an OMM fellowship may be nice to have for PM&R. Eventually, I also want to do sports medicine (with maybe TBI or pain management also) and use my OMM skills in practice. PM&R is maybe the only specialty where OMM fellows match well (2 of them landed Spaulding). However, the OMM fellowship is not necessary. As someone who is not a fellow, I have already received 7 interviews (4 out-state, 3 in NY). Thus, I wouldn't worry about the fellowship.

PM me if you have more questions.
 
Originally posted by BrooklynDO
Can anyone give me any advice as to whether to do an outside pmr elective in the ny area?
Basically the in house elective is at NUMC and the local "choices" include nyu, kessler, einstein's program.
thanks for any advice you may have.
(Drvlad, any ideas on the situation, since you are apparently an upperclassman of mine?)

Also, how much if at all would an omm fellowship help for pmr
thanks
~Brooklyn,
"the more you know , the less you understand" ~TAo te Ching

Of the four listed above, I would definitely rotate at Kessler. NUMC (I assume that's Nassau?) would probably be my last choice. I think drvlad2004 provided some great insight to the other NY programs, but I think he was generous when he said that Mt. Sinai was a little overrated.
 
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Originally posted by Stinky Tofu
Of the four listed above, I would definitely rotate at Kessler. NUMC (I assume that's Nassau?) would probably be my last choice. I think drvlad2004 provided some great insight to the other NY programs, but I think he was generous when he said that Mt. Sinai was a little overrated.

Okay! Mt. Sinai is very overrated :D. Also, again there have been talks that NUMC may shut down (In reality, since it's a county hospital it cannot) or reduce the number of residency positions. I hated my 3rd year rotations at NUMC because the hospital is a huge mess.
 
I wanted to ask you more questions about NUMC... I am considering my rotations there for clinical campus. Why was your experience so bad? I got a good impression to day when I interviewed. I loved the DME there. Tell me more. Bronte (aka Laura from North Campus of the Big Red)
 
Hey Vlad- I actually now just read your post. It's spring break and I am catching up on all these lectures- thus spring work. Well I decided to do my rotations at NUMC though your email has alarmed me a bit. I'll be doing FP at Wilson Memorial so I am excited about that. I have recently gotten interested in PM&R. Congrats on your match. I'm sure we'll be seeing more of each other. Ciao for now
 
Yes! Another medical student who has seen the light. NUMC financial troubles are completely related to the county's mishandling of the budget year after year. I think it is mostly disorganization of IM department that makes the hospital look bad. Despite the financial troubles of NUMC, the PM&R department has always been solid, especially due to Dr. Lyn Weiss (EMG specialist) running the show. You can see that by the happiness of the residents over there. Their niche is in outpatient msk rehab, which many programs have been working to improve. There are 13 residents in the program (5,5,3) and they feel well prepared once they're done. Although I didn't get one of my top 5 choices, I am glad that ranked NUMC above NYU at the last minute. After rotating at NYU, I saw over displeased the residents and some attendings were with their program.

After the match, I have been a major slacker.

Study hard!
 
Hey Drvlad, good to hear from you! It's been a while since I've seen you post. I guess you must also have post-match-senioritis.

I really appreciated all your input on this forum thus far.

Anyways, will you be going to Nassau? Is Nassau the same as NUMC the same as LIJ???

Please pardon my ignorance. I'm confused.
:(
 
Axm397,


Sorry for being so silent post-match. I was a little disappointed by my match result. However, after talking to many people who either did not match or matched into one of their lower choices on their ranklist, then I realized how competitive the match was this year. Now, I am simply glad that I matched. I will be going to Nassau. Nassau is the same as NUMC. LIJ is a different program. I heard so many bad things about LIJ in the past that I didn't bother applying there. The only thing that I worry about NUMC is not with PM&R program itself but financial instability of this county hospital. NUMC has been a well-respected program in the NYC area, especially having Dr. Weiss on staff. The good part is that I don't have to move to far from home.:D

Out of NYCOM, 19 of us matched into PM&R this year. About 30 students from NYCOM applied for PM&R. Dr. Weiss told me that 35 NYCOM students applied to her program. Out of us who matched, 2 are going to Cornell-Columbia, 3 to Mt. Sinai, 3 to NYU, 1 @ Einstein-Montefiore, 3 @ NUMC (Nassau), 3 @ LIJ, 1 @ Boston U., 2 @ Stony Brook, and 1 @ Sinai-Baltimore. I can't think of any other school (DO or MD) that had more students match into PM&R this year.

I was on hiatus and but now I am back to always help provide quality feedback on this awesome forum. Senioitis has been getting to me also.:laugh:

To future applicants:

The cat is out of the bag. Don't overlook any program this coming year. Programs that were never highly considered actually became very competitive to get into. Programs like JFK and Thomas Jefferson pretty much got all their top choices on their ranklist. For the first time, JFK looked at grades, board scores, and research (despite not being much of a research program) when ranking applicants. Even some program directors have said that they, themselves, probably wouldn't have matched if they applied this year. Take into careful consideration where you decide to do your electives.
 
FUTURE APPLICANTS:

Go to an Allopathic Medical School if you want to go to the top PMR residencies.
 
TripleH,

Why in the world would you recommend that someone go to an allopathic school. 1/2 of the people who matched at RIC and UofM were DO's dude. (and there are 125 allo schools compared to 20 osteo) DO's are BETTER prepared for PMR than MD's. Just suck it up and face it. Any DO can take USMLE step I if things get more competitive and PD's want it. So, quick posting idiotic garbage man. It's bad style, it's bad. Quit.

NF
 
Instead of DO bashing or MD bashing, why not share something useful with the group? I think drvlad's comment about not overlooking any program, emphasis on research, etc. is helpful to future applicants. Telling people to go to an allopathic school or that DOs are better prepared than MDs really doesn't help anyone.

Two of the greatest things about this forum (PM&R-SDN) is that most posts are useful and there's very little negativity compared to other forums. Let's keep it that way.:love:

I think bashing DOs vs MDs vs FMGs vs IMGs shows prejudice and insecurity on the part of the basher. Most ppl who participate on this forum are either already in a medical school (be it allopathic, osteopthic, or foreign) or have alyready graduated from medical school. Not too many of us have the luxury of switching into a different type of medical school to solidify our residency applications.

Anyways, drvlad, it's nice to hear from you. It must be nice to go to a med school where PM&R is such a big thing. I was one of two students to go into PM&R and we were the first in 15 years from our school. Please continue to contribute - I really enjoyed your posts and found them to be very informative.
 
Originally posted by TripleH
FUTURE APPLICANTS:

Go to an Allopathic Medical School if you want to go to the top PMR residencies.

This is a typical and ignorant statement that we usually get on the SDN forums. I guess that the program director of RIC (who is a DO) will agree with you. Many DOs have done very well in this field and have had, historically, a lot to contribute to rising popularity and awareness of PM&R. Knock this crap off about this allopathic vs. osteopathic BS! Maybe if your statement has to do with allopathic ortho, derm, or ENT, then it may make sense. I expect comments like that from a premed student. DOs still did very well in the match. From a DO's extensive training in anatomy, OMM, and musculoskeletal medicine, these are reasons why PM&R is a natural fit for osteopaths. Personally, I have no regrets in choosing a DO school. It is one of the main reasons why PM&R appealed to me.

Axm397,

Thank you. I am happy to see so many classmates decide to choose PM&R, hopefully not for just the lifestyle reasons. A PM&R club just started at NYCOM and it appears that we will have much more future physiatrists in the near future. I will definitely continue to contribute. I am just excited about my future in becoming a physiatrist.
 
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whine whine +pity+

What I say is true! Go ahead and keep thinking otherwise.

whine whine +pity+

How many DOs are at RIC, Spaulding, U Wash, San Antonio, Kessler, tec.? Not many
 
Hey Vlad, good to hear from you! Happy to hear that you matched, you're right; it was a pretty tough match this year for PM&R. And good God you guys churned out a lot of applicants!

The PGY2 class of 2005 at UMich are 50% DOs, the current PGY2s are 33% DOs, as are the PGY3s, and 50% of the PGY4s.

http://www.med.umich.edu/pmr/edu/resrostr.htm

Very DO friendly!

Couldn't resist responding to the troll, will stop feeding him now! :laugh:

2005 PGY2 UMich PM&R
 
I actually will be a MD but - I will be going to RIC where the PD is a DO. There were several excellent DO resident there when I interviewed. I also rotated at Kessler, and met some great DOs there too. Throughout the interview process, I met many excellent DO students with great qualifications. I'm familiar with some of the students from NYCOM, PCOM, Nova, and Kirksville from rotations, interviews, etc. Osteopathic schools are just like allopathic schools - there are geniuses and idiots in every class.

At this point, and hopefully, it will always be so - the QUALITY programs in PM&R care more about the personality, motivation, energy, and other qualifications of the applicants than the two letters behind their names.

I used to think that osteopathic schools were inferior to allopathic schools.(mostly during my pre-med years and the first two years of med school.) However, once I started 3rd year and started rotating with many DO students who were just as or even better prepared than me, I quickly realized that there really isn't much of a difference except for the OMT part.

Anyways, enough feeding of the trolls. :laugh:
 
Originally posted by Finally M3
Hey Vlad, good to hear from you! Happy to hear that you matched, you're right; it was a pretty tough match this year for PM&R. And good God you guys churned out a lot of applicants!

It is good to hear from you too, Finally M3. Wow, I didn't realize how long I was MIA. I'm on my final rotation and I have been totally slacking off. It feels so good to be on cruise control until internship starts. I can't wait until PGY2.

It sounds like we may have a cedricw (cedricw2)-type person on this PM&R forum. I guess for someone inquiring about the stats to get into Spaulding, one is desperate to get into PM&R and has to resort to childish tactics. Too much unnecessary smack-talking. I interviewed at UTHSCSA and about 1/3 of their residents are DOs, including one of the chiefs. Kessler takes at least 2 DOs per year (out of 6-10 residents). Plenty of DOs at RIC (close to 50%). Jefferson has 5 DOs (mostly from PCOM) out of 8 incoming residents who matched this year. Not bad for a field of medicine that has only 20 osteopathic schools. You will running into plenty DOs who are also faculty members at QUALITY programs and you better watch what you say if you ever interview at those places. We are all here to work together.

Now it's my turn to stop feeding the trolls!:rolleyes:
 
Sorry to disappoint you but I will be at RIC in 2005
 
And if you keep up that attitude, Triple H, the PD may not renew you for 2006. I am going to tell you something Triple H, if your style of medicine reflects your words in this post, you are going to be in major trouble. Why make enemies when you can make friends. Why bash when you can empower. I hope by the time you get to RIC in 2005, you reflect on what your role really is in medicine, and how important your MD AND DO colleagues will be, not only to your success at RIC, but your success in medicine and life. Straighten up your act friend.

Normalforce
 
Well my not yet a third year self is gonna have to put in my two cents from personal exp, such as it is:
as for spaulding, off the top of my head I can think of two students from nycom who went to spaulding residency.
how many schools can say the same, md, do, or foriegn?
and also while shadowing a PMR attending who runs a fellowship in nyc, I was speaking to an MD fellow who was a former Kessler resident who said verbatim "If i knew about PM&R when i was applying to medical school i would have gone to a DO school"
also, i believe last years chief resident at kesseler was a DO.
one more thing about spaulding...I saw several DO attendings on their staff at the program... so of course DO's are an inferior breed
I gotta go study for comlex now ...
 
This is a disscussion forum and I'm just speaking my peace. This is what I believe and I'm not PERSONALLY attacking anybody. If you disagree with what I say, than so be it. This what I know and this is what I believe.

If you come from a highly rank allopathic school you will have less troubles getting into a PMR residency. Regardless of USMLE scores.

Don't shoot the messenger.
 
This is a disscussion forum and I'm just speaking my peace. This is what I believe and I'm not PERSONALLY attacking anybody. If you disagree with what I say, than so be it. This what I know and this is what I believe.

If you come from a highly rank allopathic school you will have less troubles getting into a PMR residency. Regardless of USMLE scores. :cool:

Don't shoot the messenger.
:clap:
 
You know Triple H, you're right - you're not attacking anyone personally AND you are entitled to your opinions. It's good to know you will be at RIC so I have three years to change your mind :D

I have met three other RIC-to-be residents on the SDN forum and they are all pleasant and fun people with very diverse backgrounds. I am sure you had great qualifications to get into RIC. I trust Dr. Sliwa's judgement of character. I think you will find though, if you spend time with many of the current RIC residents, that they are all very different. Some of them were indeed AOAs at high ranking allopathic medical schools. But many, including myself, probably did not have the highest board scores or grades compared to other people in the applicant pool. From what I hear, RIC and other PM&R programs choose their residents based heavily on personality and ability to get along with others. As you know, PM&R involves lots of team meetings, and working with therapists, nurses, etc. AND RIC has a very tight-knit group of residents. I know I chose to rank RIC #1 because of the atmosphere, the residents, and the superior training.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make by insisting that MDs are superior to DOs. I honestly believe that PM&R is different. Maybe I am still very idealistic. I don't know. I do agree with you that if you are the #1 student at Harvard Med with multiple publications in the PM&R journals and LORs from the top ppl in the field, you will have no issues getting into any of the PM&R programs in this country. However, from talking to various PDs across the nation, many of them said that they would rather have a friendly personable student from a foreign medical school than an arrogant and insecure student from Harvard med. Besides, how many patients ever ask their physicians where they went to medical school?

Anyways, I do look forward to meeting you next year. I like people who have their own opinions and can share without getting emotional and insulting. (that would separate you from cedricw.) :p I think you and I can have lots of stimulating discussions.
 
I will be at RIC starting in 2005 as well. I'm really suprised at some of the comments posted here about DOs. I'm at an allopathic school but have worked with some osteopathic students and residents. An osteopathic education may offer some advantages over allopathic education for those entering PM&R. By placing more emphasis on functional neuro and musculoskeletal anatomy, some DOs start thinking about these things earlier and many have a little headstart over allopaths.

I'm planning to pursue a career in musculoskeletal medicine and/or pain management and feel like 3 things are really important to be able to help patients with musculoskeletal or chronic pain issues. Time and experience will tell if it really is.

1) You need a very solid grasp of musculoskeletal anatomy. How many residents or even physicians do you think really have this? I think every one in this field should know what each peripheral and cranial nerve innervates, all muscular attachments, etc. Also, learning skeletal and connective tissue anatomy/variations, etc can't hurt.

2) Really, really good physical exam skills. Most physicians are able to adequately examine joints. How many physicians do you think can adequately examine the scalene muscles in a patient with neck pain? If you can't diagnose it, how can you treat it? More meds?

3) An open mind. It's not that uncommon that a physician places the blame on a patient in which/she cannot figure out what is going on. it must be 'in his head' or 'he's faking it'. Is it possible that if the physician had better physical exam skills and was better-trained in anatomy and biomechanics, some of these patients would no longer have 'psychogenic' issues?

Personally, I'm very happy to hear that several DOs will be in my class at RIC.

MSK
 
TripleH said:
whine whine +pity+

What I say is true! Go ahead and keep thinking otherwise.

whine whine +pity+

How many DOs are at RIC, Spaulding, U Wash, San Antonio, Kessler, tec.? Not many


You have to be joking! This is PM&R not ortho buddy...Its not even anesthesiology....try and validate your ego some other way.

If one attends a highly ranked allopathic school then would he will have an easier time matching than a middle/low tier/state allopathic school as well? Maybe if he didn't screw up his boards and got decent letters like the rest of the strong apps. Either way applicants are independent people with individual efforts and motivations, not institutional dependent clones, be it from SGU AZCOM or Harvard. But I'm stating the obvious. At least I thought it was obvious. I dig on DO slamming. It provides that masochistic touch which I long for in all aspects of my life.

Keep getting used to the idea that you will be working under, with, and above DO's at RIC and throughout your career. Stings a little? It shouldn't.
 
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