MS vs. OTD?

[Whistle Pig]

Curious ... anyone(s) have perspective on why an OT program would decide to offer one vs. the other?

Please note, I'm NOT asking why one might choose one vs. the other.

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[FutureOT2013]

Probably to get that extra tuition. The powers that may be are considering making OT an entry level doctorate the way PT's are now, like when OT went to a mandatory entry level Masters back on 2007. I think it's kind of pointless, because its an extra year of school, not sure if its research or classes, and in the job market it doesn't give you any sort of pay increase or edge, I supposed if you want the quickest way to earn the title of Doctor then this would be it. If or when it does go to a mandatory doctorate to start practicing, those of us already working with our Masters will be grandfathered in anyways.

 

[Whistle Pig]

Probably to get that extra tuition. ... If or when it does go to a mandatory doctorate to start practicing, those of us already working with our Masters will be grandfathered in anyways.

You have some interesting perspectives, if a bit cynical. Yours could have some validity, but ... it seems like your first and last points fly in the face of each other. In any case, I'd not count on any "grandfathering" of MS degree holders being granted honorary DOTs. You grossly underestimate the academic's view and value of letters.

Far more likely, weekend and on-line programs like WVU, VCU will crop up en masse to accommodate validation and foster credibility. And perhaps, as you note, collect significant additonal tuition revenue.

 

[FutureOT2013]

You have some interesting perspectives, if a bit cynical. Yours could have some validity, but ... it seems like your first and last points fly in the face of each other. In any case, I'd not count on any "grandfathering" of MS degree holders being granted honorary DOTs. You grossly underestimate the academic's view and value of letters.

Far more likely, weekend and on-line programs like WVU, VCU will crop up en masse to accommodate validation and foster credibility. And perhaps, as you note, collect significant additonal tuition revenue.

I think you probably misunderstood my post . By grandfathering in, I don't mean granting DOT's to practicing Masters students. I meant that if they ever go to entry level doctorate to begin practicing, those already practicing with Masters degrees would still be allowed to practice with their Masters and not be required to go earn a doctorate, since they became OTR's before they upped the educational requirement. The same way those OTR's who earned Bachelors degrees years ago can still practice now without having to go get a Masters, they were already OTR's when they upped the requirement in 2007. Many of the OTR's I shadowed and volunteered for held Bachelors on OT and have no intent to earn a Masters.

 

[lizzo76]

Right now I think the OTD, as a first professional degree, is pointless and unnecessary. There are only 5 accredited entry-level OTD programs, so obviously employers don't expect it... and if you think about it, most OTs who would be in the position to hire new grads would likely only have bachelors degrees themselves. I doubt they'd put much weight on a "doctoral" degree.

 

[FutureOT2013]

This was something that interested me when I first looked into OT, a doctorate in itself is something to be really proud of and can lead to a career in academics if that's what you want to do. After speaking with several OT's, both practicing and in academics, and the requirements being what they are now, if an OT did want to earn a doctorate after passing the NBCOT it wouldn't necessarily have to be an OTD or a Ph. D. in Occupational Science or Rehab Science. I've met several OT's who earned Ph.D.s in education, clinical psychology, human science, early childhood special education, and various other research subjects that somehow related to the type of OT they were in and helped them in leadership roles whether it be at a hospital, school, or other type of setting. I'll definitely keep this in mind as I go through my OT program the next few years.

 

[lizzo76]

This was something that interested me when I first looked into OT, a doctorate in itself is something to be really proud of and can lead to a career in academics if that's what you want to do. After speaking with several OT's, both practicing and in academics, and the requirements being what they are now, if an OT did want to earn a doctorate after passing the NBCOT it wouldn't necessarily have to be an OTD or a Ph. D. in Occupational Science or Rehab Science. I've met several OT's who earned Ph.D.s in education, clinical psychology, human science, early childhood special education, and various other research subjects that somehow related to the type of OT they were in and helped them in leadership roles whether it be at a hospital, school, or other type of setting. I'll definitely keep this in mind as I go through my OT program the next few years.

But there's a difference between OTD as an entry-level degree, in place of the MS, and doing a post-professional doctorate (PhD or OTD) and especially a PhD in another different but related field. There's nothing wrong with going and getting a significant amount more training or research experience. But it's actually a little ridiculous to call the entry-level OTD degree a "doctorate." I think I would actually shy away from claiming that I have a doctorate, just as I would not claim that if I got a DPT. Just because a program is a little longer and has some small research component doesn't mean it's on par with a PhD. I think we're talking two different things here... why would a program offer the OTD degree INSTEAD OF the MS... not why would an OT ever want to get a doctorate.

Just to add, though, I would be interested in talking to the OT who takes the 5-7 years to get a Clinical Psychology PhD (significantly harder to get into than med school, with some programs accepting 2% of applicants) who continues working as an OT. That seems like a strange career step.

 

[FutureOT2013]

But there's a difference between OTD as an entry-level degree, in place of the MS, and doing a post-professional doctorate (PhD or OTD) and especially a PhD in another different but related field. There's nothing wrong with going and getting a significant amount more training or research experience. But it's actually a little ridiculous to call the entry-level OTD degree a "doctorate." I think I would actually shy away from claiming that I have a doctorate, just as I would not claim that if I got a DPT. Just because a program is a little longer and has some small research component doesn't mean it's on par with a PhD. I think we're talking two different things here... why would a program offer the OTD degree INSTEAD OF the MS... not why would an OT ever want to get a doctorate.

Just to add, though, I would be interested in talking to the OT who takes the 5-7 years to get a Clinical Psychology PhD (significantly harder to get into than med school, with some programs accepting 2% of applicants) who continues working as an OT. That seems like a strange career step.

Regardless of how you or I feel about OTD's, DPT's, and PhDs, they are still doctorates technically. I for one would not want to be called by the title Doctor by holding an OTD. I just mentioned it tangentially as an observation after I looked into how an OTD would give an OT an advantage, which it currently does not. As to why a program would offer an OTD? Maybe when OT goes to entry level doctorate someday they can lay claim to being the oldest OTD programs in America, but if they have the resources and the will, I guess they just did it to make their programs more appealing, or simply because they could.

As for the Clinical Psychology career route? No idea, I come from a life sciences background. But her name is Professor Glugoski and she's part of the faculty at SJSU, if you ever wanted to look her up. Her clinical experience is in Geriatrics and mental health.

 

[lizzo76]

Regardless of how you or I feel about OTD's, DPT's, and PhDs, they are still doctorates technically. I for one would not want to be called by the title Doctor by holding an OTD. I just mentioned it tangentially as an observation after I looked into how an OTD would give an OT an advantage, which it currently does not. As to why a program would offer an OTD? Maybe when OT goes to entry level doctorate someday they can lay claim to being the oldest OTD programs in America, but if they have the resources and the will, I guess they just did it to make their programs more appealing, or simply because they could.

As for the Clinical Psychology career route? No idea, I come from a life sciences background. But her name is Professor Glugoski and she's part of the faculty at SJSU, if you ever wanted to look her up. Her clinical experience is in Geriatrics and mental health.

That's very interesting and it makes more sense since she is a professor who happens to teach in an OT department, rather than being a practicing OT. She has a BS in OT and a PhD in Clinical Psychology and seems to be more involved in psych than OT. I was thinking she went on to get a PhD in Clinical Psychology but did nothing with it and practiced as an OT, merely using the psych knowledge to inform her work.

In any case, I think an OTD is more accurately referred to as a professional degree. Although a JD is technically a doctorate, people don't refer to lawyers with the first professional degree as holding doctorates. It's really no different from another professional three-year masters degree like the MBA. A doctorate implies heavy research, which does not take place in an entry-level OTD program (or a Juris Doctor program.) Even if an entry-level OTD is technically a doctorate, it does not represent the level of work other doctorates represent.

 

[FutureOT2013]

Same can be said of Dentists, Pharmacists, and Chiropractors. I agree, OTD's are not on the same level as a Ph.D. As I said before, I think they are pointless right now, they give no advantages or salary increases currently and I don't know of any OTD's on any of the faculty of OT schools in the Bay Area at least. At USC, it seemed like several of the OTD's went on to teach lower level OT courses in the 5 year program part time at USC, and that was about it. The OTD is another year of tuition to borrow, while the Ph.D. in Occupational Science is paid for WITH an annual 30k stipend but is 4-5 years long. If I had to choose, I'd be fine with the M.S. strictly for practicing OT.

 

[superCOTA]

Occupational Science Doctoral Students wont be practicing OT as much as doing research to validate the concept of occupation as a therapeutic tool, and advancing the field. To say you want to do that before you have sat and evaluated a few hundred patients and evaluated their life situation... and wanted to research this and formulate ideas to advance the profession... would be very ambitious.

Those w/ a PhD in OT are interested in research like an occupational science major but may go into education, as this will be a requirement for professors of OT in the near future, as well as those who currently teach master's courses. Again, experience comes with this role more than a great GPA.

Then theres the DSc and the DOT .. yadda yadda ... OT's dont need this right out of school as much as earning a lot of clinical experience..

Doctorate programs usually have a SPECIALIZATION in one field or another within the domain of OT that they wish to take to the next level. (as opposed to the DPT which is just more theory, management, and not specific because their students are green) .. how can you specialize in peds, or teaching, or TBI rehab if you haven't been doing it for a decade or two? you can't, and if you apply to one right after you get your masters you are doing yourself a disservice- you could want to change your field but if you already took the DOT it's a waste of time and cash. To argue that you truly know your clinical preferences, as well as strengths and weaknesses... to such a point that those who never worked w/ patients know where they want to be in 10 years would be a neat trick...you will change, and so will the world around you... so wait it out.

 

[Whistle Pig]

Interesting discussion,POVs. An anecdote on terminology. While many refer to and prefer to be referred to as "Docter" from the Ph.D. set, either out of ignorance or arrogance, or perhaps both, it is inappropriate to address John Doe, who holds a Ph.D., as "Dr. Doe," be it orally or in writing. It is "Dear Mr. Doe." Generally the addressing of "Dr." is reserved for medical practitioners and researchers.

A second note. Suggesting or implying that a doctoral level career ... either with a Ph.D., Ed.D., D.Sci., or OTD ... is either inappropriate and/or unavailable to a new person in the field is misleading. Of course there are research opportunities available to new practitioners who have not handled a few hundred cases. That would be like saying an accounting or law professor could not teach and research being absent audit or litigation experience. In fact many in both areas are neither certified nor bar-approved.

It might be contended such allegations merely reflect the immaturity of the profession and/or the ignorance of aspirants.

As for the"grandfathering", thanks for expanding on your meaning of that terminology. Agreed, it'll be like bachelor degree holding practitioners are considered @ present. Allowed to practice with licensure current.

Lastly ... WHERE is the move to OTD even novice professionals (vs. BS, now MS) coming from? The profs and academic programs? Their institutions? Insurers? Employers (clinics, hospitals, schools, practices, etc.?) The professional association(s)? Patients?

 

[exrx]

Lastly ... WHERE is the move to OTD even novice professionals (vs. BS, now MS) coming from? The profs and academic programs? Their institutions? Insurers? Employers (clinics, hospitals, schools, practices, etc.?) The professional association(s)? Patients?

Although there are a scant amount of programs, there doesn't seem to be much of a push for the OTD currently. However, it is definitely not insurers, reimbursement is not tied to level of education. Healthcare usually follows trends. If education trends towards an OTD for entry into the profession, I would say it usually would be from the agenda of universities, AOTA, or both. Look at APTA, they want all providers to be "doctors" of physical therapy. They feel it increases scope and direct access.

In any event, I don't see how a few more units makes someone a significantly better practitioner. Additionally, the increased costs may not be worth it to the prospective student. Some feel it is a good move while others scoff at the idea.

 

[Whistle Pig]

I can't help but wonder if a whole bunch here are not wishfully hoping the OTD is not "the future" and thus the almost refusal to address the issue and rather opine about why it'll never fly.

 

[superCOTA]

A second note. Suggesting or implying that a doctoral level career ... either with a Ph.D., Ed.D., D.Sci., or OTD ... is either inappropriate and/or unavailable to a new person in the field is misleading. Of course there are research opportunities available to new practitioners who have not handled a few hundred cases. That would be like saying an accounting or law professor could not teach and research being absent audit or litigation experience. In fact many in both areas are neither certified nor bar-approved.

So hire the lawyer with no experience to teach or defend you, sounds smart.
Same thing for accountant.



Over at BU, who employ OT's leaders ...

http://www.otd-degree.com/admissions/requirements.asp
A minimum of 2 years of clinical practice as an occupational therapist, at least one of which must be in the area of specialization in which the student intends to focus for the doctoral project. The program involves several practicum courses that are designed to support immediate application of didactic courses to practice contexts. Therefore, students must be employed at least part-time in a health, rehabilitation, or human services field at the time of matriculation.


So what's your area of specialization when you haven't worked long enough to specialize, much less learn the ropes.

 

[Whistle Pig]

So hire the lawyer with no experience to teach or defend you, sounds smart.
Same thing for accountant.

Obviously, someones do. Add teachers, docs, nurses, engineers, policepersons, and on and on and on ... Thank God!

 

[superCOTA]

They are proficient to start work at the entry level, which is more than competent. And whistle I'm interested in knowing how your admission process is going... Your vocab level is clearly beyond average with grammar to boot, and my interest in your interest here is peaked. PM SENT.

But this is one of those 'top 5' topics that is beaten like a dead horse... So when someone creates yet another thread on this issue, please send them this way so that they learn the context that OT's doctorate is made.

As I finish up my final semsester, I am taking OT Manager. I was lent a copy of the text, albeit from 1990. It's a much smaller book for the seniors in all of America's bachelor OT programs, before the Masters was necessary. And now, I take it as a graduate course.... Soooo much better this way
And no the schools won't complain should we bite and try to keep up w/ the neighbors ...

 

[FutureOT2013]

http://www.aota.org/Students/FAQDegrees.aspx

 

[Penguinita]

I honestly have not read most of the posts here since I'm at work w/ some down time but wanted to give my 2 cents.

I would LOVE to go for my OTD. Why? Well I love research and finding out new ways or more efficient ways to practice. My BA was in Sociology and the most interesting part of my major was conducting research and analyzing it. I'm so happy that I'll get to do some research during my MS, though it won't be in the same level as an OTD program.

I also hope to teach at the Community College where I first started out and having a doctorate helps immensely.

 

[Whistle Pig]

http://www.aota.org/Students/FAQDegrees.aspx

Thanks for the link. A simple explanation ....

 

[Cierra]

I am interested in an OTD degree because I am interested in research and teaching.

 

[Whistle Pig]

Like dentists, attorneys, PTs, nurses, and more, because of growing call for delineation, articulation, legitimization, and professionalism the future of OT lies in the land of academe,and the drift from BS to MS (which is already a fate accomplise) to OTD is inevitable, unstoppable. Just a function of time.

 

[superCOTA]

It's interesting that OT's interest in the doctorate became peaked after PT got it ..

While learning more is always nice, I can say first hand, that fluff was thrown in to the mix with these extra diplomae... it can all best be described as BUREAUCRACY

Here's another angle. Therapists are required to have continuing education classes completed... currently, audits are few and far between.
So, 10 years out, wether you received a BS, MS, OTD, Congressional Medal of Honor, none of it will matter... it's going to be what you did with it for 10 years. And OT is about doing. Some people will have 10 years of 1 year of experience, others will have taken the continuing ed, and have grown with increasingly more difficult positions.


Certifications, credentials, or other declarations of competency not learned/ earned in school program leading to a typical degree:
NDT certification.
RESNA and Assistive Tech credentials.
BCN certification.
Ergonomic certification.
CHT certification- splinting, neuro implications, gunshot wounds.
CLVT provision.
Burn unit.
Driver training specialist.
AAMPS certification.
BCABA would help with autism as much as a SI certification
Pediatric cert from AOTA.
Reiki
Lymphodema Massage
Hippotherapy
Shoulder reahb ... spend years on that and you won't have it all down.

Don't stay too long in school youre wasting time.


And whistle, what are your academic plans for this coming september? I think some school already sees an awful lot of you...