more scutwork/abuse in Community or University res program?

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maxvanderbilt

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hi guys!
Do you think that there is more scutwork/abuse in community or in university residency program?
Is there a residency program in US that is really dedicated to Education and to training of new doctors or the residents are always 100% treated primary like cheap labor/slaves with only the "collateral" effect of learning?

Thanks a lot for your opinions!

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I just want to collect some information about the residency programs around US. This is a forum and this is its aim.
There is not any offense or second meaning for anybody.

I am truly curious to know more about the American residency system, and I hope this forum can help me.
 
I just want to collect some information about the residency programs around US. This is a forum and this is its aim.
There is not any offense or second meaning for anybody.

I am truly curious to know more about the American residency system, and I hope this forum can help me.
Start with telling us what specialty you're talking about. So we can move it to the appropriate forum.
 
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any specialty...just generally speaking is there anybody with an very good experience during the residency?
 
Just because it isn't academic, doesn't mean it isn't learning. As an intern, if I didn't have a bunch of scutwork, I wouldn't learn how to be more efficient, how to write an adequate note, and how to read on patients quickly. I think all residencies have some balance for different people. I want to have time to read on my patients but want a good balance of volume so I see the pathology. Other residents may hate to read and want shear volume, and some still may learn best by reading with less volume. There are residencies out there for everyone. You are asking if these two end of the spectrum examples are the only two options. No.
 
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any specialty...just generally speaking is there anybody with an very good experience during the residency?
Yes, lots of people have a very good experience in residency.

But that's like asking if anybody likes pepperoni pizza. You'll get an answer, but it's not interesting or relevant to...well...anything.
 
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hi guys!
Do you think that there is more scutwork/abuse in community or in university residency program?
Is there a residency program in US that is really dedicated to Education and to training of new doctors or the residents are always 100% treated primary like cheap labor/slaves with only the "collateral" effect of learning?

Thanks a lot for your opinions!

So this is a loaded question: It's like asking "Do you think a Chevy will outrun a Ford in the quarter mile?" ---

Rather than look at it from a community/university program point of view, let's look at the 2 items in question -- scutwork and abuse ---

Scutwork: There is scutwork in every program, period. And how much of it there is depends on your perception -- my younger peers weren't used to having to work at all and anything that required them to actually do something was considered scutwork. My view of scutwork was that while it sucked, it was a) a rite of passage and b) a chance to become so good at things that I could do them in my sleep. also recognize the amount of scutwork you get will be based on a) the residency program itself - either community or university, depending on the training philosophy of the program b) whether or not you've managed to piss off the senior residents/chief c) whether you're making a nuisance of yourself d) whether or not you've brought donuts and coffee for the team e) whether or not you're learning the lessons they're trying to teach. I can tell you that I had one intern who didn't get the hint when I "counseled" them about getting their notes done before rounds so we could pre-round, thought their defecation wasn't odiferous and that they were better than they were -- but they had an outgoing personality and were always cracking jokes, etc. with the attendings who were amused --- they got a rather liberal helping of scutwork to tone them down and make them see the light since I used every opportunity to correct them -- never got the hint and wound up with a poor review from me. don't put yourself in that position and you'll get the standard amount of scut and move on.

Abuse: Same as scutwork -- there are abusive programs out there from both sides -- but there are also good programs who do not abuse residents/interns --- and there are residents/interns that attract abuse --- and there are residents/interns who think someone telling them what to do is abuse -- all depends on you...look for the programs that do not fill year after year and you'll find the one's with something wrong.

So, you asked for my opinion -- there it is...
 
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Dear friends, thank you for the replies.
I like the division of the post in "scutwork" and "abuse" made by @JustPlainBill and his answer is very informative...thank you!

I think that all comes down to the central management...it is the chairman/PD who decide how much is the ratio between md/nurse/pct/med stud and patients based on certain calculations, it is their job to do that, after-all.
In the unfortunate situation where this ratio is not well calculated, aka there are tons of patients and only very few providers/resources, there it is the most natural way to start the scutwork/abuse.
The already trained providers with a iron contract, like attending/nurses/pct would not work more than what their contract say....so who are you gonna call??the residents!!:DD
The chief resident will dump all the work on the juniors then.

So, just to summarize:
Bad management-->incredible high workload-->trained provider protected by their contract-->scutwork/workload on residents-->chief abuse juniors

What do you think about this schematizing of events?
 
Dear friends, thank you for the replies.
I like the division of the post in "scutwork" and "abuse" made by @JustPlainBill and his answer is very informative...thank you!

I think that all comes down to the central management...it is the chairman/PD who decide how much is the ratio between md/nurse/pct/med stud and patients based on certain calculations, it is their job to do that, after-all.
In the unfortunate situation where this ratio is not well calculated, aka there are tons of patients and only very few providers/resources, there it is the most natural way to start the scutwork/abuse.
The already trained providers with a iron contract, like attending/nurses/pct would not work more than what their contract say....so who are you gonna call??the residents!!:DD
The chief resident will dump all the work on the juniors then.

So, just to summarize:
Bad management-->incredible high workload-->trained provider protected by their contract-->scutwork/workload on residents-->chief abuse juniors

What do you think about this schematizing of events?
I am currently somewhat busy and will respond more later. Based on your response, it is apparent that you have no clue about the residency training system. You are woefully misinformed based upon your response.
 
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There is a reason the PGY-1 year is usually referred to as the "intern year" or an "internship." Note that it is a word and a concept that is somewhat common in a number of other fields.

The point of the internship in the past - and one can argue to a more limited extent today - is not about education, it is about training. In years past, the goal of this year was to be able to do a H&P quickly and efficiently, to figure out how to write prescriptions, to learn to handle the most rote tasks of the profession, and to be able to function without sleep, while ill, while .... (oh well). A number of changes have diluted and changed this a bit, but it is wrong to expect he PGY-1 year to provide a great deal of education. The goal of the year is to learn to be able to act and talk like a physician, and once that foundation is laid - and it cannot be acquired outside of a lot of "scutwork" - then, and only then, is it possible to really start learning.

An analogy can be made to military aviation: First pilots have to be able to fly the plane. And once they are able to fly the plane without thinking, then - and only then - is it possible to start worrying about the advanced stuff. If you are still worrying about how to do the H&P, or how to write the prescription, you can't be focusing on the important advanced stuff.

So worrying about education and learning in the PGY-1 year is asking the wrong question. That is what the rest of residency is for. (And since it is very rare today to see a physician with only an "internship" actually practicing medicine, that concern has even less validity.)
 
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Dear friends, thank you for the replies.
I like the division of the post in "scutwork" and "abuse" made by @JustPlainBill and his answer is very informative...thank you!

I think that all comes down to the central management...it is the chairman/PD who decide how much is the ratio between md/nurse/pct/med stud and patients based on certain calculations, it is their job to do that, after-all.
In the unfortunate situation where this ratio is not well calculated, aka there are tons of patients and only very few providers/resources, there it is the most natural way to start the scutwork/abuse.
The already trained providers with a iron contract, like attending/nurses/pct would not work more than what their contract say....so who are you gonna call??the residents!!:DD
The chief resident will dump all the work on the juniors then.

So, just to summarize:
Bad management-->incredible high workload-->trained provider protected by their contract-->scutwork/workload on residents-->chief abuse juniors

What do you think about this schematizing of events?


So, to begin with, you need to understand that most hospitals that have a residency training program, whether opposed or not, have a concept of "good teaching cases" for their inpatient work. So your comment about "The already trained providers have an iron contract..." is invalid. Attending physicians who are not associated with a residency training program but work at the hospital/clinic in question have their own patient panel and do not see residency patients unless it's a rare exception. Get that straight first. Patient cases that are good to teach residents everything from standard presentations of usual complaints to odd presentations of usual complaints to the occasional zebra that requires you to think about what you need to do to rule out a multitude of usual complaints to get to the real problem to cases where the disposition is going to be complex to arrange to just plain "it's your turn to take the next unassigned" will occur. It is called training for a reason.

Residency is usually it's own little separate world even in opposed programs at large teaching hospitals.

1) The PD generally sets the tone for the residency, is more of a figurehead, has very little to do with the actual day to day operation of the residency.
2) Most things are run by committee
3) ACGME plays a large part in expectations and requirements
4) Scutwork is a fact of life and intern year is about learning how to manage it.
5) Everyone gets scutwork
6) Dickheads who don't work and play well with others usually get dumped on as with anything in life
7) Whiners generally get dumped on also
8) You are tasked with a relatively low volume of patients to start with but it seems overwhelming because you don't know what you're doing. it's a world of difference being a med student and having an academic knowledge of what to do vs. having a human being that you're about to give a medication to your first time. Just wait until you get to replete potassium in an elderly patient with cardiac issues or start a patient on insulin as an intern.
9) You're really not that overwhelmed, just inexperienced.
10) The Chief and your seniors tend to get pissed at you for doing stupid stuff that interrupts their sleep.
11) No one knows anything straight out of medical school and trying to understand it is like trying to under riding a bicycle -- but the bicycle is on fire and you're on fire because you're in hell.
12) You are training to be a physician and that takes time -- if you're worried now about something as miniscule as scutwork, you should probably leave the profession and go sell cars or something.
13) You are generally seeing patients with government insurance -- which means they are either over age 65 or younger than that with major medical problems -- they're going to have rather long lists of issues, be non-adherent and you're their last hope. so you will need to see a higher volume -- that's why residency programs are run by medicare/Medicaid so that they can get their patients seen because their reimbursement is about $0.30 on the dollar.
14) Scutwork bites for everyone, get to work and get it done.
 
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Dear Friends, Thank you for your answers.
I respect your point of views, but I truly believe that yours is not the truth, it is just what you wrongly rationalized about your personal experience.
Residency is an educational experience, as a resident, from first to last day of contract, you are there to learn.
Your duties are very different from the attendings' ones.

The difference between first and other years of training is based only on old bad habits and it is not written in any contract, and it should be demonized and cancelled, not justified as you guys are saying.

The amount of workload should be calculated ONLY based on the attendings' workforce, not on the residents. The residents are there to learn from others, not to do work instead of them. AKA, if the workload is too much for the residents, the chairman should simply hire a new attending, not put everything on the residents'shoulder, who most of the times cannot say anything against it out of fear to be fired.

Please fight for your rights and do not justify everything. Be a man, be respected, follow your dreams and do not be afraid of fight for your rights, always!
In summary what needs to be done:
- EDUCATION from first to last day
- good balances workload for everyone, no one excluded, doctor and patients happy
 
Dear Friends, Thank you for your answers.
I respect your point of views, but I truly believe that yours is not the truth, it is just what you wrongly rationalized about your personal experience.
Residency is an educational experience, as a resident, from first to last day of contract, you are there to learn.
Your duties are very different from the attendings' ones.

The difference between first and other years of training is based only on old bad habits and it is not written in any contract, and it should be demonized and cancelled, not justified as you guys are saying.

The amount of workload should be calculated ONLY based on the attendings' workforce, not on the residents. The residents are there to learn from others, not to do work instead of them. AKA, if the workload is too much for the residents, the chairman should simply hire a new attending, not put everything on the residents'shoulder, who most of the times cannot say anything against it out of fear to be fired.

Please fight for your rights and do not justify everything. Be a man, be respected, follow your dreams and do not be afraid of fight for your rights, always!
In summary what needs to be done:
- EDUCATION from first to last day
- good balances workload for everyone, no one excluded, doctor and patients happy
Sorry we don't build bridges for trolls.
 
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Dear Friends, Thank you for your answers.
I respect your point of views, but I truly believe that yours is not the truth, it is just what you wrongly rationalized about your personal experience.
Residency is an educational experience, as a resident, from first to last day of contract, you are there to learn.
Your duties are very different from the attendings' ones.

The difference between first and other years of training is based only on old bad habits and it is not written in any contract, and it should be demonized and cancelled, not justified as you guys are saying.

The amount of workload should be calculated ONLY based on the attendings' workforce, not on the residents. The residents are there to learn from others, not to do work instead of them. AKA, if the workload is too much for the residents, the chairman should simply hire a new attending, not put everything on the residents'shoulder, who most of the times cannot say anything against it out of fear to be fired.

Please fight for your rights and do not justify everything. Be a man, be respected, follow your dreams and do not be afraid of fight for your rights, always!
In summary what needs to be done:
- EDUCATION from first to last day
- good balances workload for everyone, no one excluded, doctor and patients happy

Do you really have the audacity to ask an attending to use his time to type up a well-explained realistic response about his own experiences, who tells you that he went through the training and process and has come to appreciate it as an invaluable learning experience, and then you tell him that he's incorrect?
 
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Do you really have the audacity to ask an attending to use his time to type up a well-explained realistic response about his own experiences, who tells you that he went through the training and process and has come to appreciate it as an invaluable learning experience, and then you tell him that he's incorrect?
Seriously...what am I reading here?

I'm not sure why people ask for advice and personal experiences and then argue when someone tells them about their experience.
 
Seriously...what am I reading here?

I'm not sure why people ask for advice and personal experiences and then argue when someone tells them about their experience.

"Your personal experience didn't fit the narrative that I was expecting you to fit neatly into! Ergo, you must be incorrect!"
 
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