More DO schools than MD schools Ranked Where Students Leave with the Most Debt

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Ho0v-man said:
This. I’m never giving an effing dime to my school. This tuition is ridiculous and I don’t have a clue where it goes. And more importantly...I don’t care. They can go ahead and keep raising it. Your alumni base acts like your marketing department for the rest of their careers and I know I’ll never recommend a school that keeps raising tuition, but can’t be bothered to even update a 10+ year old PowerPoint with multiple errors on it.
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Seriously, if they had half a brain they'd do what they could to build a loyal alumni base that actually wants to have anything to do with the school after graduation. Most DO schools as is are transparently self-serving businesses and are just a place to get a degree and never return.
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zero0 said:
Seriously, if they had half a brain they'd do what they could to build a loyal alumni base that actually wants to have anything to do with the school after graduation. Most DO schools as is are transparently self-serving businesses and are just a place to get a degree and never return.
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Any particular schools come to mind?

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twospadz said:
https://www.usnews.com/education/be...hools-where-students-leave-with-the-most-debt

What are your thoughts? And how can they expect DO students to go into primary care under these conditions. Its really unfair.
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It's simple actually - DO students are not obligated to go to primary care. Also, if they do go to primary care more than half of that will be IM. Just extending my thoughts (in case you can't put 2 and 2 together) average IM salary is $230-240k + yearly bonuses + extar shifts (that you'll have to take no matter what, especially first couple years). A $400k debt only requires you to pay off $4k monthly (I'm over exaggerating purposefully here) while your average tax free money will be about $12-14k (if not more when you add yearly bonus, btw that bonus is about 30-40k just so you know pal). And you are telling me that $8-10k of free money left after paying for debt will not be enough for you? Even for money crazy people like that - you can still take locum shifts and earn more.
All that I told you here is a common knowledge. I find it hard to believe that anyone in medschool doesn't know that.
 
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zero0 said:
DO schools are a raw deal but it's the best deal on the table for most people and still better than giving up a year of attending salary to reapply IMO

If my school thinks I'm ever donating a penny though after the tuition hikes they pulled the past few years, they're in for a surprise. Hope the extra couple thousand a year you didn't even need was worth alienating your entire alumni base. That'll pay off in the long run :thumbup::thumbup:
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if the prevailing attitude on this forum is to be taken at face value, then it was unlikely that any of you are going to be donating any amount of money no matter what the tuition is anyways.

Does anyone really think that LECOM people are going to be donating to their alma mater at appreciably higher rates than midwestern people? To the tune of perhaps 160k, then tuition differential over four years between the two schools?

It is a raw deal, I agree, but threatening to not donate as an alumni isn't a very powerful threat.
 
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twospadz said:
https://www.usnews.com/education/be...hools-where-students-leave-with-the-most-debt

What are your thoughts? And how can they expect DO students to go into primary care under these conditions. Its really unfair.
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Nobody hates the proliferation of the Stateside Caribbean schools more than me but we REALLY need to stop pretending that primary care physicians live in holes in the ground outside monasteries.

Live like a resident for your first 3 years as an attending. Pay off the debt!


If you cannot make a $3000 loan payment every month bringing in 230K per year the problem is with your spending!
 
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Midwestern AZCOM, at 65000. Not on list
 
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mdh2 said:
Nobody hates the proliferation of the Stateside Caribbean schools more than me but we REALLY need to stop pretending that primary care physicians live in holes in the ground outside monasteries.

Live like a resident for your first 3 years as an attending. Pay off the debt!


If you cannot make a $3000 loan payment every month bringing in 230K per year the problem is with your spending!
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LOL factssss.

FWIW, I've seen FM jobs with $150,000 loan repayment for only 3 years of service in rural places. I've contacted the actual companies via email and have seen the contracts that outlines the statements.

SDN likes to sensationalize everything.
 
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Most DO schools are private schools. Private schools charge more than public schools. Makes sense DO schools are generally more expensive. Yes, there's some ridiculous ones that price gouge, but most people are failing to use common sense when thinking about this.

shadowlightfox said:
Aren't 3 out of those 4 you listed primary care level?
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Only psych is really considered primary care. Some people think EM is but most don't. Don't equate competitiveness with primary Vs specialty, they're very different things even if they have a lot of overlap.
 
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I will never understand why CCOM is considered a "top DO school." It's curriculum is archaic, their match list is very 'meh' year after year, and their tuition is through the roof.
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
I will never understand why CCOM is considered a "top DO school." It's curriculum is archaic, their match list is very 'meh' year after year, and their tuition is through the roof.
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Can we please stop ranking DO schools? While I am not embarrassed by my degree, any attempt to make it "prestigious" "Top" "The Harvard of..." is sad.

As our...err....esteemed president once said it is "tough to watch"
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
I will never understand why CCOM is considered a "top DO school." It's curriculum is archaic, their match list is very 'meh' year after year, and their tuition is through the roof.
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Probably only CCOM students call it "top DO school." My Walmart DO medical education is serving me well enough
 
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UnoMas said:
Probably only CCOM students call it "top DO school." My Walmart DO medical education is serving me well enough
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I don’t mean to brag, but my DO school is basically Target tier so I’m like kinda a big deal.
 
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mdh2 said:
"


Can we please stop ranking DO schools? While I am not embarrassed by my degree, any attempt to make it "prestigious" "Top" "The Harvard of..." is sad.

As our...err....esteemed president once said it is "tough to watch"
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No one is making it a prestige thing. No DO school has prestige. However, it’s idiotic to believe that there aren’t DO schools that offer more resources to their students that make them better than others. My point is CCOM is not one of those schools even though they get touted as such frequently.
 
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CCOM is the only trash DO that brags about its rosy trash status while a majority of their students still go into primary care. ROFL

I'm glad that I'm not one of those obnoxious d-bags going into PCP with 500K in debt. That number will probably balloon into $700K after residency.

But, CCOM, baby!

What's CCOM again?
 
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LOL

"DO" and "top-tier" in the same sentence?

GTFOH.

Unless it's Harvard or John Hopkins MD ....... please don't ever mention ANY DO school in terms of tiers.

That's like being proud of getting 7th in the special olympics when the six people ahead of you got suspended for doping and you automatically get the gold medal.

Many people need to be real and honest here.

Match lists do not mean ****. "Tiers" for DOs do not mean ****.

Many of us are here cause we didn't get into MD programs and didn't want to go to the hell hole that is Caribbean and were fine with the gamble of being placed into primary care fields.

The DO schools know this. Hence, they know they can charge whatever they want because what are we gonna say? Sorry... your school is too expensive... I'm gonna wait to apply to a cheaper program next year and put my life on hold another year? Sorry...

LOL

We were/are just happy to be apart of the race and be here studying medicine and knew we were gonna have to pay for it.

I'm paying my school pretty much ONLY for a USMLE ID token to redeem and to have access to their rotation contracts and get my diploma and move the **** on.

I can't wait to wash my hands of any ties or relations from my program.
 
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QueenJames said:
LOL

"DO" and "top-tier" in the same sentence?

GTFOH.

Unless it's Harvard or John Hopkins MD ....... please don't ever mention ANY DO school in terms of tiers.

That's like being proud of getting 7th in the special olympics when the six people ahead of you got suspended for doping and you automatically get the gold medal.

Many people need to be real and honest here.

Match lists do not mean ****. "Tiers" for DOs do not mean ****.

Many of us are here cause we didn't get into MD programs and didn't want to go to the hell hole that is Caribbean and were fine with the gamble of being placed into primary care fields.

The DO schools know this. Hence, they know they can charge whatever they want because what are we gonna say? Sorry... your school is too expensive... I'm gonna wait to apply to a cheaper program next year and put my life on hold another year? Sorry...

LOL

We were/are just happy to be apart of the race and be here studying medicine and knew we were gonna have to pay for it.

I'm paying my school pretty much ONLY for a USMLE ID token to redeem and to have access to their rotation contracts and get my diploma and move the **** on.

I can't wait to wash my hands of any ties or relations from my program.
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While I don't hate my program, I agree. Can't hide from reality. Very few choose DO over MD. Plenty of different reasons for why that could have happened. I think ranking almost any school regardless of MD or DO is ridiculous though. The reality truly lies with getting people (a large chunk at least) to shed their insecurity about why they're DO. At the end of the day you still get to practice medicine...

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Stagg737 said:
Only psych is really considered primary care. Some people think EM is but most don't. Don't equate competitiveness with primary Vs specialty, they're very different things even if they have a lot of overlap.
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I wasn't equating competitiveness with primary care. My logic was that primary care was generally equated to specialties where you consistently saw the same people repeatedly over time. Then again, EM doesn't qualify for that either, so I should've said 2...

Either way, google already clarified for me what specialties are primary care level.
 
shadowlightfox said:
Does that make all the recently closed schools the Toys R Us of DO schools?
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????

Can you clarify?

The only medical schools to close in the past 30-40 years were SJB (accreditation issues, which led to a temporary closure, if that); Oral Roberts, Hahnemann and Medical College of PA [both of which merged to form Drexel]. The only DO school in living memory to close whas the Irvine school, which became UCI
 
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Goro said:
????

Can you clarify?

The only medical schools to close in the past 30-40 years were SJB (accreditation issues, which led to a temporary closure, if that); Oral Roberts, Hahnemann and Medical College of PA [both of which merged to form Drexel]. The only DO school in living memory to close whas the Irvine school, which became UCI
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Sigh I really gotta do a better job clarifying when I'm just joking.

I never referenced any specific schools. I was merely continuing the joke, regardless of how accurate my statement might've been (or not in this case).
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
No one is making it a prestige thing. No DO school has prestige. However, it’s idiotic to believe that there aren’t DO schools that offer more resources to their students that make them better than others. My point is CCOM is not one of those schools even though they get touted as such frequently.
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What are these resources you are speaking of?
 
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UnoMas said:
What are these resources you are speaking of?
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How about true home residency programs that openly favor students from said school? How about research opportunities that lead to actual publications in major medical and field specific journals? Schools that provide significant discounts to board resources like UWorld, USMLE-Rx, Sketchy, etc, and that have all of this and still have reasonable tuition. Schools with faculty in almost every specialty that act as mentors for students interested in said specialty. How about schools that encourage their students to take USMLE? In the last year alone my school has medical student publications in journals such as: Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery (#1 ortho journal), JAMA (big JAMA), JAMA Derm, JAMA Oto, British Journal of Anaesthesia, and that is literally barely scratching the surface of the research output. My school is not the only one that has access to good research, but a lot of DO schools don't.

Not all DO schools are created equal. Yes in the match a DO is a DO, but some schools can make building a high quality residency application easier on their students and anyone who believes otherwise hasn't seen the crapfest that exists at some DO schools.

You had better believe that someone who wants ortho and goes to MSU where they have ortho residencies, ortho faculty, and access to ortho research will have a much better time building an ortho app than someone at CUSOM or even KCU. It has nothing to do with "prestige."
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
How about true home residency programs that openly favor students from said school? How about research opportunities that lead to actual publications in major medical and field specific journals? Schools that provide significant discounts to board resources like UWorld, USMLE-Rx, Sketchy, etc, and that have all of this and still have reasonable tuition. Schools with faculty in almost every specialty that act as mentors for students interested in said specialty. How about schools that encourage their students to take USMLE? In the last year alone my school has medical student publications in journals such as: Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery (#1 ortho journal), JAMA (big JAMA), JAMA Derm, JAMA Oto, British Journal of Anaesthesia, and that is literally barely scratching the surface of the research output. My school is not the only one that has access to good research, but a lot of DO schools don't.

Not all DO schools are created equal. Yes in the match a DO is a DO, but some schools can make building a high quality residency application easier on their students and anyone who believes otherwise hasn't seen the crapfest that exists at some DO schools.

You had better believe that someone who wants ortho and goes to MSU where they have ortho residencies, ortho faculty, and access to ortho research will have a much better time building an ortho app than someone at CUSOM or even KCU. It has nothing to do with "prestige."
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KCU's dean can beat up your school's dean. That's what we have going on here.

In all seriousness, people should go to a school that is AT THE VERY LEAST in a location where there are lots of research programs nearby, if not at the school itself. That to me makes something like CCOM and NYIT-COM more attractive than KCU. The "@kcumb.edu" email seems to be on a spam list at the few nearby hospitals and MD schools, judging from what my classmates experienced this past summer.
 
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sab3156 said:
KCU's dean can beat up your school's dean. That's what we have going on here.

In all seriousness, people should go to a school that is AT THE VERY LEAST in a location where there are lots of research programs nearby, if not at the school itself. That to me makes something like CCOM and NYIT-COM more attractive than KCU. The "@kcumb.edu" email seems to be on a spam list at the few nearby hospitals and MD schools, judging from what my classmates experienced this past summer.
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You can't expect to be taken seriously when you have the word k CUM b for your domain.
 
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Stagg737 said:
Most DO schools are private schools. Private schools charge more than public schools. Makes sense DO schools are generally more expensive. Yes, there's some ridiculous ones that price gouge, but most people are failing to use common sense when thinking about this.



Only psych is really considered primary care. Some people think EM is but most don't. Don't equate competitiveness with primary Vs specialty, they're very different things even if they have a lot of overlap.
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Who exactly considers psychiatry primary care?
 
GUH said:
Who exactly considers psychiatry primary care?
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If geriatrics, peds, and ob/gyn are all considered primary care, I fail to see how psych is not considered primary care.
 
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Stagg737 said:
Most individuals I've talked to consider it PC. I actually don't think I've talked to anyone who said it doesn't fall into the PC fields...
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Psychiatrist and OB-GYN's don't consider themselves primary care. Just ask them and they will tell you. Neither do ER Physicians, but many schools pretend they are primary as well because 'a lot of people use the ER for primary care.' If your school gets a monetary incentive to produce primary care physicians (as I suspect mine does) then the definition of primary care will widen and widen.
 
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BorntobeDO? said:
Psychiatrist and OB-GYN's don't consider themselves primary care. Just ask them and they will tell you. Neither do ER Physicians, but many schools pretend they are primary as well because 'a lot of people use the ER for primary care.' If your school gets a monetary incentive to produce primary care physicians (as I suspect mine does) then the definition of primary care will widen and widen.
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I'm a psychiatrist and I consider myself to be primary care. So do most of my colleagues. So does the federal government when it comes to loan forgiveness. As far as I'm concerned the last point is the only one that matters (same goes for OB/Gyn).
 
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Stagg737 said:
I'm a psychiatrist and I consider myself to be primary care. So do most of my colleagues. So does the federal government when it comes to loan forgiveness. As far as I'm concerned the last point is the only one that matters (same goes for OB/Gyn).
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Fair enough. Will you still consider yourself primary when your loans are gone tho?
 
Stagg737 said:
Yup. I honestly don't really care though, as it bears absolutely no weight as to how I'll be practicing.
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I think I got ya...
19-pumpkin-spice-xanax-funny-meme.jpg
 
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zero0 said:
DO schools are a raw deal but it's the best deal on the table for most people and still better than giving up a year of attending salary to reapply IMO

If my school thinks I'm ever donating a penny though after the tuition hikes they pulled the past few years, they're in for a surprise. Hope the extra couple thousand a year you didn't even need was worth alienating your entire alumni base. That'll pay off in the long run :thumbup::thumbup:
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Same for mine, buddy. I looked up my school's endowment and its pathetic compared to how long the school has been around--40 years. With how many relatively economically successful people that have come from the school for the last 40 years, it is hilariously low. I know the admin are working hard to try to increase it, but they are far too thick to understand that when you shaft someone every day of their life for four years economically, mentally, and emotionally maybe they don't want to give you their money. It's really humorous, actually. And in my case, it goes past just the DO disadvantage--the school literally functions as the most inefficient bureaucratic entity I have ever witnessed. In short--no they will not ever see a dime from me that I'm not forced to hand over to their inefficient and careless organization.
 
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I'm attending a DO program and paying under 40,000 in tuition. I should be coming out in less debt then most of my friends attending allopathic programs. I also don't feel limited to primary care simply because I attend an osteopathic program. True limitations come after taking you get your USMLE grade.
 
driven4 said:
True limitations come after taking you get your USMLE grade.
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In part, yes. However, you will have far more limitations than your MD counterpart, and that is a fact no matter what your USMLE scores and research credentials look like. I do not understand what you are trying to add to the discussion by making vague statements like this, to be honest.
 
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driven4 said:
I'm attending a DO program and paying under 40,000 in tuition. I should be coming out in less debt then most of my friends attending allopathic programs. I also don't feel limited to primary care simply because I attend an osteopathic program. True limitations come after taking you get your USMLE grade.
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Sadly, there are programs that will refuse to take you even with perfect USMLE score.

Accept that some hills will be insurmountable, others will be steeper than others. Networking helps.
 
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Goro said:
Sadly, there are programs that will refuse to take you even with perfect USMLE score.

Accept that some hills will be insurmountable, others will be steeper than others. Networking helps.
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I was told at an interview said that about 80% of residency directors are ready to accept COMLEX after the merger. How accurate is this claim? Do you foresee a percentage of spots being allocated to DOs specifically so they can be compared to each other as opposed to being compared with MDs? Otherwise, the alternative scenario just seems like an apples vs oranges comparison.

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PickleRickelus said:
I was told at an interview said that about 80% of residency directors are ready to accept COMLEX after the merger. How accurate is this claim? Do you foresee a percentage of spots being allocated to DOs specifically so they can be compared to each other as opposed to being compared with MDs? Otherwise, the alternative scenario just seems like an apples vs oranges comparison.

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LOL just LOL

Is today opposite day?
 
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PickleRickelus said:
I was told at an interview said that about 80% of residency directors are ready to accept COMLEX after the merger. How accurate is this claim? Do you foresee a percentage of spots being allocated to DOs specifically so they can be compared to each other as opposed to being compared with MDs? Otherwise, the alternative scenario just seems like an apples vs oranges comparison.

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This is a new one. I cannot Envision any scenario where specific slots would be reserved for DOs. There's no way that the AOA has that much power or savvy to pull off something like that.
 
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PickleRickelus said:
80% of residency directors are ready to accept COMLEX
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"accept COMLEX" simply means they won't screen you out for not having a USMLE score, that in no way means they will ever actually consider you for their program with only COMLEX.

PickleRickelus said:
percentage of spots being allocated to DOs specifically so they can be compared to each other as opposed to being compared with MDs?
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LOL. No. Get ready to compete with MD students, and that is how it should be quite frankly.
 
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