Minorities apply to twice as many residency programs

[chronicidal]

anyone that says check your privilege is unquestionably a douche. everyone has varying degrees of "privilege" so that stupid campaign is just a spotlight to detract away from the real factors at play. there are privileges URMs have that white kids don't, vice versa.

You're right. I won't suggest it. But to get back to the original post, what ARE the real factors at play?

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[PL198]

Care to elaborate on some of these privileges which are so widely enjoyed by our large URM population?
Like being viewed as getting into medical school on the strength of their academic merits perhaps?

yeah there's never been any scholarships specifically for URM, man if only something like that existed. it would also be nice if they had scholarships for genders labeled as being oppressed systematically. if only that existed

 

[Apoplexy__]

When controlling for MCAT, blacks, Hispanics, and Asians all do worse on Step 1 than whites. Sources: http://1.usa.gov/13uHQMp http://bit.ly/1rfY1Z2 http://bit.ly/1x9jkLu

Would it be appropriate here to suggest checking one's privilege?

I'm going to say this as objectively as possible:

If a test question were made that asked what the most likely cause of this disparity was, I think we would all answer "admission of weaker candidates in the minority pool" over "white privilege."

The question of whether there is a racial bias in getting into med school in the first place is a different story...but Step 1 performance seems like quite the stretch.

 

[Lawgiver]

You think people should use SDN to post about every advantage or disadvantage that every ethnic group has in life...

EVERY? No. That would crowd out all the other important topics and make SDN useless with regards to its main mission. Obviously.

 

[gapyearguppy]

I'm going to say this as objectively as possible:

If a test question were made that asked what the most likely cause of this disparity was, I think we would all answer "admission of weaker candidates in the minority pool" over "white privilege."

The question of whether there is a racial bias in getting into med school in the first place is a different story...but Step 1 performance seems like quite the stretch.

But it's not that simple either, because Asians are also included in the pool, and on average are not "weaker" candidates, stat-wise.

I do think this topic is beyond most of us without extensive research, to be honest.

 

[deleted647155]

Asians are typically defined as non-underrepresented minorities (NURM), where the "non" modifies "underrepresented" rather than "minority". Insofar as whites comprise the majority, Asians are a minority. There was a letter in JAMA this year that mentioned how grouping Asians with whites in workforce analyses is not really appropriate and sweeps under the rug the problems that Asians might face in particular in ascending the ladder of academic medicine. Source: http://bit.ly/1l2lRTG

omg, yes, i wish this was broadcast more widely. do you know how largely encompassing the word Asian is? And I would not say that Asians are overrepresented in medicine--WHITES are OVERREPRESENTED in America, in general. Sure, if Asians and Blacks and Latinos had the same political power in our medical system and culture as whites do, THEN CALL IT OVERREPRESENTATION.

the labels that minorities are associated with--who created them? y'all white folk.

also Asian = lots and lots and lots of peoples from lots of countries--overgeneralizing and dismissing so many people as just "Asian" is ignorant and perpetuates racial stereotypes

 

[Dave89]

WHITES are OVERREPRESENTED in America, in general.

Whites founded and built America. Whites are responsible for almost all of the discoveries and inventions that underlie modern medicine. Whites have selflessly (and stupidly) given non-Whites advantages over their own kith and kin.

Take your whining elsewhere.

Sure, if Asians and Blacks and Latinos had the same political power in our medical system and culture as whites do, THEN CALL IT OVERREPRESENTATION.

Ooooh, ALL CAPS! I'm impressed!

the labels that minorities are associated with--who created them? y'all white folk.

A particularly stupid remark.

 

[PL198]

lol screw white people. they're awful, get rid of them all

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

lol screw white people. they're awful, get rid of them all

Yes, you see the solution to racism is ethnic cleansing of the offending race. It's all very logical.

 

[Chipster.]

omg, yes, i wish this was broadcast more widely. do you know how largely encompassing the word Asian is? And I would not say that Asians are overrepresented in medicine--WHITES are OVERREPRESENTED in America, in general. Sure, if Asians and Blacks and Latinos had the same political power in our medical system and culture as whites do, THEN CALL IT OVERREPRESENTATION.

the labels that minorities are associated with--who created them? y'all white folk.

also Asian = lots and lots and lots of peoples from lots of countries--overgeneralizing and dismissing so many people as just "Asian" is ignorant and perpetuates racial stereotypes

Dude I'm liberal and even I think this is some of the dumbest **** I've read in a long time.

 

[PL198]

Dude I'm liberal and even I think this is some of the dumbest **** I've read in a long time.

you're racist then

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

omg, yes, i wish this was broadcast more widely. do you know how largely encompassing the word Asian is? And I would not say that Asians are overrepresented in medicine--WHITES are OVERREPRESENTED in America, in general. Sure, if Asians and Blacks and Latinos had the same political power in our medical system and culture as whites do, THEN CALL IT OVERREPRESENTATION.

the labels that minorities are associated with--who created them? y'all white folk.

also Asian = lots and lots and lots of peoples from lots of countries--overgeneralizing and dismissing so many people as just "Asian" is ignorant and perpetuates racial stereotypes

How did you get into medical school? I expect this level of idiocy in pre-allo but this is puzzling.

 

[PL198]

How did you get into medical school? I expect this level of stupid in pre-allo but this is puzzling.

URM baby

 

[GunnerBMS]

URM baby

Are you normally this racist when you talk to people in person? Jeez, lay off the Haterade.

 

[jakeislove]

How did you get into medical school? I expect this level of idiocy in pre-allo but this is puzzling.

I don't find the comments surprising at all.

 

[KnuxNole]

I will never understand why people start threads about race on this site. It always just ends up being super uncomfortable. If people here get rowdy over what percentage of FM docs are working in ERs then why the frick would this lead to a productive conversation.

Wait why would people get rowdy over what percent of FM docs work in the ED...?

 

[colbgw02]

omg, yes, i wish this was broadcast more widely. do you know how largely encompassing the word Asian is? And I would not say that Asians are overrepresented in medicine--WHITES are OVERREPRESENTED in America, in general. Sure, if Asians and Blacks and Latinos had the same political power in our medical system and culture as whites do, THEN CALL IT OVERREPRESENTATION.

the labels that minorities are associated with--who created them? y'all white folk.

also Asian = lots and lots and lots of peoples from lots of countries--overgeneralizing and dismissing so many people as just "Asian" is ignorant and perpetuates racial stereotypes

Complains about lumping all Asians together..lumps all "white" people together. Makes sense; I saw Angus McGregor and Kerem Ataman sharing a whisky and some baklava at the local hookah pub just last week.

I'm pretty sympathetic to URMs in medicine and think a lot of posts here are off the rails, but you took the discussion to a You Tube comments section level.

 

[Mad Jack]

When controlling for MCAT, blacks, Hispanics, and Asians all do worse on Step 1 than whites. Sources: http://1.usa.gov/13uHQMp http://bit.ly/1rfY1Z2 http://bit.ly/1x9jkLu

Would it be appropriate here to suggest checking one's privilege?

How is doing better on a standardized exam despite all else but race being equal "privilege?" The writers of the questions aren't a bunch of white dudes. The test doesn't gauge the validity of answers based on the color of your skin.

Asians outscore whites on the MCAT on average, I don't see you saying they should check their privilege in that regard lol.

 

[RJGOP]

Yes, you see the solution to racism is ethnic cleansing of the offending race. Tis all very logical.

What's even more logical is how only whites can be racist. Wait isn't that racists too? No, remember, only whites are racist.

 

[Mad Jack]

omg, yes, i wish this was broadcast more widely. do you know how largely encompassing the word Asian is? And I would not say that Asians are overrepresented in medicine--WHITES are OVERREPRESENTED in America, in general. Sure, if Asians and Blacks and Latinos had the same political power in our medical system and culture as whites do, THEN CALL IT OVERREPRESENTATION.

the labels that minorities are associated with--who created them? y'all white folk.

also Asian = lots and lots and lots of peoples from lots of countries--overgeneralizing and dismissing so many people as just "Asian" is ignorant and perpetuates racial stereotypes

All white people get dismissed as "just white" despite the large number of different cultural and religious traditions we have, past and present. People often forget that many of our "white" grandparents and great grandparents weren't considered equal to other "whites" even a century ago. Jews, Italians, the Irish, and those descending from the many countries in Eastern Europe weren't exactly welcomed by the rest of the country until the 50s and 60s. Most of them still maintain small ethnic communities that are a mix of 1st-3rd gen (and sometimes even farther on) immigrants and their businesses, relics of a time when they were restricted from owning businesses that would compete with the WASP types downtown.

By just lumping us all together as "y'all white folks... perpetuating Asian stereotypes" you're guilty of the very sort of ignorance you are speaking out against.

 

[Shikima]

omg, yes, i wish this was broadcast more widely. do you know how largely encompassing the word Asian is? And I would not say that Asians are overrepresented in medicine--WHITES are OVERREPRESENTED in America, in general. Sure, if Asians and Blacks and Latinos had the same political power in our medical system and culture as whites do, THEN CALL IT OVERREPRESENTATION.

the labels that minorities are associated with--who created them? y'all white folk.

also Asian = lots and lots and lots of peoples from lots of countries--overgeneralizing and dismissing so many people as just "Asian" is ignorant and perpetuates racial stereotypes

Trololololol?

 

[PL198]

What's even more logical is how only whites can be racist. Wait isn't that racists too? No, remember, only whites are racist.

white people are the only inherently evil, prejudicial and malicious race of people known to the world. they get what they deserve.

 

[RJGOP]

Trololololol?

I don't think he's trolling. He either just that brainwashed or he just doesn't know what he's saying.

 

[RJGOP]

white people are the only inherently evil, prejudicial and malicious race of people known to the world. they get what they deserve.

Yup. That's all you hear today. On the news, on the streets, from your professors. We're just breeding more and more anti-white sympathizes by the hour.

 

[Espadaleader]

1: White people created race and racial labels. So, don't blame non-Whites for that.

2: White people founded medicine in the U.S. on the backs of slaves. There was rampant experimentation during chattel slavery.

3: White people founded America. I mean that's true but White people practically enslaved or discriminated against every person in America to do so including other White people (Jews, Catholics, Irish), Chinese, Japanese (WWII), Blacks (goes without saying) etc.

It's funny how quickly people forget history. Watch how somebody Will post and get upset. Don't even start with the guilt. Nobody is pointing fingers this is just facts. It's crazy how from the creation of this country until the 1970's my people couldn't even go to most medical schools... I digress.

 

[Dave89]

I don't think he's trolling. He either just that brainwashed or he just doesn't know what he's saying.

Not brainwashed, and (s)he knows exactly what (s)he's saying.

Making European-American people feel guilty is very profitable for those who are not in that category.

 

[PL198]

1: White people created race and racial labels. So, don't blame non-Whites for that.

2: White people founded medicine in the U.S. on the backs of slaves. There was rampant experimentation during chattel slavery.

3: White people founded America. I mean that's true but White people practically enslaved or discriminated against every person in America to do so including other White people (Jews, Catholics, Irish), Chinese, Japanese (WWII), Blacks (goes without saying) etc.

Tis funny how quickly people forget history. Watch how somebody Will post and get upset. Don't even start with the guilt. Nobody is pointing fingers this is just facts. Tis crazy how from the creation of this country until the 1970's my people couldn't even go to most medical schools... I digress.

yeah just 100 % facts.

 

[touchpause13]

I can't even

 

[Psai]

This thread is awful

 

[Dave89]

1: White people created race and racial labels. So, don't blame non-Whites for that.

Race is biological. In a sense, you are correct. Whites discovered the science of genetics; organized kingdoms, phyla, classes; invented vaccines; etc.

2: White people founded medicine in the U.S. on the backs of slaves. There was rampant experimentation during chattel slavery.

Another idiotic statement. Do you have any idea how many medical discoveries and inventions originated in Europe?

Provide proof for your assertion that there was "rampant experimentation during chattel slavery." Next, dazzle us with your brilliant exposition on just how much of modern medicine was gleaned from slavery.

3: White people founded America. I mean that's true but White people practically enslaved or discriminated against every person in America to do so including other White people

White people discriminated against other White people - so... I guess that we Whites are victims!

(Jews, Catholics, Irish), Chinese, Japanese (WWII), Blacks (goes without saying) etc.

That's because America was intended to be a European nation. This was and is not a radical concept.

 

[Espadaleader]

Wow.

 

[touchpause13]

Don't pay any mind to the white nationalist

 

[colbgw02]

 

[Espadaleader]

Race was developed on pseudoscience, Whites developed modern genetics but also horrors like Eugenics, medical devices like the speculum were invented from slave experimentation; I don't have the time to do a literature review but remember Blacks were not even legally considered persons back then... Wow, America was intended to be an European country so it's okay to treat Blacks, Latinos, Asians, Natives like crap. Wow

 

[Espadaleader]

Lmao!!!! Man, ppl are wildin

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Don't pay any mind to the white nationalist

Nor to the guilt ridden apologist for the perpetual victims.

 

[Dave89]

Race was developed on pseudoscience,

Exactly! Sickle cell trait, hypercholesterolemia, propensity toward the development of DM, varying musculoskeletal builds... all pseudoscience!

Whites developed modern genetics but also horrors like Eugenics,

Many people practice eugenics, even if they do not admit it. Prefer a more intelligent partner or spouse? That's eugenics. Female looking to marry a tall man? Eugenics.

And so on and so forth.

medical devices like the speculum were invented from slave experimentation;

Oops: "Vaginal and anal specula were used by the ancient Greeks and Romans..." - original source

 

[touchpause13]

Nor to the guilt ridden apologist for the perpetual victims.

Dave is a white nationalist. Ask him yourself.

 

[Mad Jack]

This thread just got so toxic I have to stop contributing. There's probably a wide range of reasons for the disparity in application numbers that would be very difficult to quantify. Asians might be going after more competitive specialties, on average, or might be more willing to spend more on apps to avert potential match failure. Whites might be more likely to cluster applications closer to home or more careless about the whole process. URMs might have weaker apps due to lower average admission standards, or they might be filing out more apps because they don't trust the system to treat them fairly and thus want to hedge their bets.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

This thread just got so toxic I have to stop contributing.

Probably the right move.

 

[Mad Jack]

Exactly! Sickle cell trait, hypercholesterolemia, propensity toward the development of DM, varying musculoskeletal builds... all pseudoscience!



Many people practice eugenics, even if they do not admit it. Prefer a more intelligent partner or spouse? That's eugenics. Female looking to marry a tall man? Eugenics.

And so on and so forth.



Oops: "Vaginal and anal specula were used by the ancient Greeks and Romans..." - source

Genetic clusters do not a new race make. By that sort of pseudoscience, the Amish and Ashkenazi Jews are entirely different races because they have certain genes that have become prevalent in their subpopulations.

 

[Dave89]

Genetic clusters do not a new race make. By that sort of pseudoscience, the Amish and Ashkenazi Jews are entirely different races because they have certain genes that have become prevalent in their subpopulations.

Of course, like many things, it is a question of degree.

 

[Mad Jack]

Of course, like many things, Tis a question of degree.

And the degree that science has drawn for species to be distinct is an inability to interbreed. "Race" is a sociological construct, not a scientific one. Now could we get back to the topic at hand? What race is or isn't doesn't matter for this discussion. What matters is why it is affecting residency applications.

 

[Dave89]

And the degree that science has drawn for species to be distinct is an inability to interbreed. "Race" is a sociological construct, not a scientific one. Now could we get back to the topic at hand? What race is or isn't doesn't matter for this discussion. What matters is why Tis affecting residency applications.

I think that DrBowtie nailed it in post #25.

 

[chronicidal]

This thread just got so toxic I have to stop contributing. There's probably a wide range of reasons for the disparity in application numbers that would be very difficult to quantify. Asians might be going after more competitive specialties, on average, or might be more willing to spend more on apps to avert potential match failure. Whites might be more likely to cluster applications closer to home or more careless about the whole process. URMs might have weaker apps due to lower average admission standards, or they might be filing out more apps because they don't trust the system to treat them fairly and thus want to hedge their bets.

Interesting hypotheses. All of which could be addressed if only the NRMP collected race data. I wonder why they don't.

 

[Mad Jack]

Interesting hypotheses. All of which could be addressed if only the NRMP collected race data. I wonder why they don't.

It would take a whole lot more than just race data. You'd have to have a short questionnaire as well, with 1-5 rated questions like:

How confident do you feel that you will match successfully?

How important is location to you?

Are you confident that your application process will be fair and unbiased?

Do you feel like your medical education has been negatively impacted by your race, gender, sexuality, or ethnicity?

Do you feel like you applied to more programs than might be necessary to maximize your chances of acceptance?

...etc.

Combine these things with race, gender, ethnicity, and sexuality data and you could probably learn a lot about why people match the way they do. But we'll probably never see a survey like this, as the current match appears to work very well, so there's not a whole lot of incentive to slice and dice data to improve it.

 

[touchpause13]

It would take a whole lot more than just race data. You'd have to have a short questionnaire as well, with 1-5 rated questions like:

How confident do you feel that you will match successfully?

How important is location to you?

Are you confident that your application process will be fair and unbiased?

Do you feel like your medical education has been negatively impacted by your race, gender, sexuality, or ethnicity?

Do you feel like you applied to more programs than might be necessary to maximize your chances of acceptance?

...etc.

Combine these things with race, gender, ethnicity, and sexuality data and you could probably learn a lot about why people match the way they do. But we'll probably never see a survey like this, as the current match appears to work very well, so there's not a whole lot of incentive to slice and dice data to improve it.

That would be really interesting to see

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Why can't we all agree that caucasians are genetically superior than other races?

 

[GunnerBMS]

Why can't we all agree that caucasians are genetically superior than other races?

Because this ain't Nazi Germany

 

[Lawgiver]

Exactly! Sickle cell trait, hypercholesterolemia, propensity toward the development of DM, varying musculoskeletal builds... all pseudoscience!



Many people practice eugenics, even if they do not admit it. Prefer a more intelligent partner or spouse? That's eugenics. Female looking to marry a tall man? Eugenics.

And so on and so forth.



Oops: "Vaginal and anal specula were used by the ancient Greeks and Romans..." - original source

haha your view of Eugenics gets a big F. In case you are actually serious....There is a difference between mate selection and the situation where government forcibly isolates, then proceeds to forcibly sterilize, then selectively kills and then finally commit genocide of the feeble minded, all in the name of Eugenics.