Melbourne or Sydney University???

[alexb1373]

I am from England and have undergrad offers from both Sydney and Melbourne university. I am hoping for any advice from people who know these cities and unis better than me...which would be the better to live and study in? Also I visited both recently and Melbourne appeared to attract more "artsy" type students whereas Sydney seemed perhaps more sportsy, however I may be complete wrong obviously. Can anyone tell me about the reputations of these unis within Australia, even if they are pretty generalised. Thanks a lot, Alex

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[Ezekiel20]

I am from England and have undergrad offers from both Sydney and Melbourne university. I am hoping for any advice from people who know these cities and unis better than me...which would be the better to live and study in? Also I visited both recently and Melbourne appeared to attract more "artsy" type students whereas Sydney seemed perhaps more sportsy, however I may be complete wrong obviously. Can anyone tell me about the reputations of these unis within Australia, even if they are pretty generalised. Thanks a lot, Alex

What exactly do you mean by an undergrad offer from Sydney? Sydney Uni has a 4-year, post-graduate entry medicine programme (which is still technically an 'undergraduate' course).

Are you saying you have offers in undergraduate courses other than medicine from both unis? I'm asking this because this is not the time of the year when offers to medical programmes are made, but for other courses you can start in the July semester.

In terms of reputation, Melbourne Uni consistently comes ahead of Sydney Uni in various rankings, but this may be partly due to the fact that Melbourne Uni has a number of Nobel prize laureates that Sydney doesn't. However, Sydney Uni gets more federal research funding than any other Australian uni by far.

Having said that, the quality of medical education isn't always related to the schools' strength in research. Some of my best lecturers from my undergraduate course (medical science) have been Masters degree holders not involved in research, rather than PhD holders who do research and are only teaching because it's in their contract.

Regarding the two cities, the consensus is that Melbourne is the more 'cultured' city, but is also called the 'sporting capital' of Australia. Sydney, on the other hand, doesn't really have any distinct 'vibe'.. It is crowded wherever you go, people can be quite rude (but then again I used to live in New Zealand where people are a lot nicer), and housing prices esp near the city is crazy.

The other thing is that, since you're from England, you will love the Sydney weather, compared to the cold and wet Melbourne.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Starting in 2010 Melbourne will no longer be admitting students into their 6-year MBBS program, instead they will be changing to a 4-year graduate entry MD program!

New 4-year graduate-entry MD (Melbourne) program.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Also their Vet program which is already accredited in the US and Canada will be changing to a 4-year grad entry DVM.

And their Dental program will become a 4-year grad-entry DDS.

 

[Ezekiel20]

Starting in 2010 Melbourne will no longer be admitting students into their 6-year MBBS program, instead they will be changing to a 4-year graduate entry MD program!

New 4-year graduate-entry MD (Melbourne) program.

I'm a bit puzzled after having read the website.

So they're phasing out their 6-year undergraduate and 4.5-year postgrad entry medicine programmes, to be replaced by 4-year grad-entry medicine programmes like those offered at USyd, UQ, UWA, Flinders etc.

But are they awarding the degree of MBBS or MD?

MD is a higher doctorate degree in Australia, conferred upon completion of a research/thesis in the field of medicine/surgery.

Based on this, you would think that they're awarding the MBBS, but the website says:

2009 final intake for graduates in the MBBS
2010 no intake
2011 first intake into the new doctoral degree in Medicine and Surgery

A 'doctoral' degree? I'm confused.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

So they're phasing out their 6-year undergraduate and 4.5-year postgrad entry medicine programmes, to be replaced by 4-year grad-entry medicine programmes like those offered at USyd, UQ, UWA, Flinders etc. .

Yes, that is correct.

But are they awarding the degree of MBBS or MD?

MD is a higher doctorate degree in Australia, conferred upon completion of a research/thesis in the field of medicine/surgery.

They are going to stop offering MBBS and start offering an MD as of 2011 as their entry level medical degree just like in the US and Canada.

The MD has traditionally been a higher doctorate granted in Australia. But ever since the UK joined the EU in 2001... the UK has been becoming more like the European schools and will begin to take on more eastern european doctors and dentists and promote more exchanges within Europe.

Australian programs have been becoming more like North American schools. With the aim that in about 10 years time Australia will have similar reciprical licensure agreement with the US and Canada like it used to have with the UK.

The old MD that was granted as a higher research doctorate for medicine might possibly be replaced with either a (PhD, DM, or DMSc.)

example: DMSc, MD

Also, I don't know if you've noticed.. but postgraduate programs in Australia (ie. RACS: SET) are also becoming more streamlined with earlier entry into specialty training programs tailored for graduate-entry students similar to the US and Canadian systems.


Here are some other programs that are changing to the North American grad-entry model:

New 4-year DDS program (Melbourne is planning on having CODA (the US/Can dental accreditation org) coming out to accredit the new program sometime between now and 2010).

New 3-year JD program

Also.. Melbourne's vet program (which is already accredited in the US and Canada) will be changing from the current 5-year BVSc course to a 4-year DVM degree. (North American accreditation will be retained).

Btw: Sydney's graduate-entry dental program is also looking start the US/Canadian accreditation process next year with the aim to obtain North American accreditation by 2011.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

I remember when Sydney first introduced the graduate entry dentistry program, they couldn't go with DDS (doctor of dental surgery) because of a severe opposition from the University. Hence they went with BDent (bachelor of dentistry) and couldn't even use the previous BDS because the surgeons were up against the ideas of the dentists doing 'surgery'. Let's see what Melbourne dental school ends up with - another BDent or a DDS? The website was specific that at this time the degree name was not finalized.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I remember when Sydney first introduced the graduate entry dentistry program, they couldn't go with DDS (doctor of dental surgery) because of a severe opposition from the University. Hence they went with BDent (bachelor of dentistry) and couldn't even use the previous BDS because the surgeons were up against the ideas of the dentists doing 'surgery'. Let's see what Melbourne dental school ends up with - another BDent or a DDS? The website was specific that at this time the degree name was not finalized.

Melbourne said that it hasn't been finalised, however they have confirmed that it will definitly be a "Doctorate". They are tossing up between DDS or DMD. Sydney is now considering changing their BDent as well. Will update you when we know more.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

Okay then. It's funny how Australia and NZ is trying to give it's dental graduates a title of "doctor" in their degrees. I am guessing that they will most likely go with:

Doctorate of Dentistry (DDent)

I know how fussy those medicos can be! I wonder if Griffiths is also considering changing their degree too?

In a few years, there will be a whole lot of different "kind" of dental degrees from Australia...

BDS, for old Sydney grads
BDent, for the new Sydney grads
BDSc, for the old Melbourne grads
DDS, DMD, or DDent(?), possibly for the new Melbourne grads
BOH GradDipDent, for the Griffith grads
BDSc, for UWA grads
BDSc, for UQ grads
BDS, for SA grads
BDS, for those Otago grads!!
DClinDent for those specializing
MDS or MDSc for those older guys with specialization...
DDSc, for those who did research and got a doctorate in dental science!!
Thank goodness they stopped giving out the LDS!!!

It's going to be interesting to watch!

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

Okay then. It's funny how Australia and NZ is trying to give it's dental graduates a title of "doctor" in their degrees. I am guessing that they will most likely go with:

Doctorate of Dentistry (DDent)

I know how fussy those medicos can be! I wonder if Griffiths is also considering changing their degree too?

In a few years, there will be a whole lot of different "kind" of dental degrees from Australia...

BDS, for old Sydney grads
BDent, for the new Sydney grads
BDSc, for the old Melbourne grads
DDS, DMD, or DDent(?), possibly for the new Melbourne grads
BOH GradDipDent, for the Griffith grads
BDSc, for UWA grads
BDSc, for UQ grads
BDS, for SA grads
BDS, for those Otago grads!!
DClinDent for those specializing
MDS or MDSc for those older guys with specialization...
DDSc, for those who did research and got a doctorate in dental science!!
Thank goodness they stopped giving out the LDS!!!

It's going to be interesting to watch!

Yeah.. Australia (and nz for that matter) are in a funny transitional period at the moment. We can't work in the UK anymore and are having to deal with the fact that we aren't part of the EU. The system as a whole here is going towards the US and Canadian model, yet of course the Australians and Kiwi's don't want to be known as copying the North Americans.. so of course they have to do it a slightly differently. But everyone trying to do it differently has just caused a too much confusion.

Soo.. finally Melbourne and Sydney have finally bitten the bullet and accepted the job of setting the standard for the rest of the country as a 4 year graduate entry DDS/DMD. Adelaide is wanting to go this way soon as well. So, I'm sure that once the bigger name Unis are 4 year Doctorates (also with possible accreditation in north america). Then I doubt when given a choice someone would prefer to go to a lesser known university for a "certificate", or some other form of a Bachelors when they could apply to Syd, Melb, Adel and get a more recognised degree.

The other universities will end up having to change as well I'm sure if they want to stay competative.

 

[BlueToothHunter]

I personally would have preferred if everyone in Australia followed what Griffiths was handing out!

BOH GradDipDent (Griffiths)

Look at how many letters you will be getting!

 

[driedcaribou]

Melbourne said that it hasn't been finalised, however they have confirmed that it will definitly be a "Doctorate". They are tossing up between DDS or DMD. Sydney is now considering changing their BDent as well. Will update you when we know more.

That's crazy. They probably think the MD in North America is a doctorate when it's only an undergraduate degree.

What they're doing is bowing down to North American pressure.... it cheapens the meaning of MD.

Oh well!

Degrees seem to be getting more and more meaningless these days. All I want is the public to trust me in cutting them open and putting them back together again!

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I personally would have preferred if everyone in Australia followed what Griffiths was handing out!

BOH GradDipDent (Griffiths)

Look at how many letters you will be getting!

ha.. riight. BOH (Bachelor of Oral Health) is the degree you recieve after completion of Dental hygiene school in Australia and New Zealand and is equal the the BS (Hygiene) in the US and Canada.

I think the Dental programs at Melb and Syd feel that Griffith is cheapening the profession by making education in dentistry reduced to the level of a Bachelor of Dental Hygiene with a post grad diploma in "dentistry". Just because the program is 5 years in length doesn't mean that the quality is the same as the solid 5-year BDS programs at say UWA or Otago! The first 3 years of the hygiene course are not taught at the same level as the first 3 years of the BDS courses.

Sydney changed a few years ago to the 4-year grad entry route and modeled their program after Harvard and UBC, and by 2010 Melbourne will also be restructuring to a 4-year grad entry program (and maybe Adelaide soon as well) all of which culminate in a dental degree, not just a certificate or diploma.

I know USC has/had a program where they accepted their BS (Hygiene) students into their DDS dental program with a 1-year advance standing.. But the Griffith program isn't quite the same as USC's program.

At the moment... the Griffith program has yet to even graduate anyone from their dental program, and even if they did.. the final years of their program actually not even accredited yet.

I suppose only time will tell what will happen.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

That's crazy. They probably think the MD in North America is a doctorate when it's only an undergraduate degree.

This will be no different.

A "professional doctorate", the MD and DDS (Melb) degrees will represent completion of the undergraduated medical and dental program.

Same goes for the Vet = DVM (Melb) and the Law = JD (Melb) degrees.

 

[Hollycozza]

I am from England and have undergrad offers from both Sydney and Melbourne university. I am hoping for any advice from people who know these cities and unis better than me...which would be the better to live and study in? Also I visited both recently and Melbourne appeared to attract more "artsy" type students whereas Sydney seemed perhaps more sportsy, however I may be complete wrong obviously. Can anyone tell me about the reputations of these unis within Australia, even if they are pretty generalised. Thanks a lot, Alex

Melbourne is more Artsy AND more Sportsy!

Sydney is more flashy!

But I love them both

(I'm from Melb but @ uni in Syd)

 

[BlueToothHunter]

Melbourne is more Artsy AND more Sportsy!

Sydney is more flashy!

But I love them both

(I'm from Melb but @ uni in Syd)

Melbourne reminded me of NZ too much! It was COLD!

 

[driedcaribou]

This will be no different.

A "professional doctorate", the MD and DDS (Melb) degrees will represent completion of the undergraduated medical and dental program.

Same goes for the Vet = DVM (Melb) and the Law = JD (Melb) degrees.

Ah.. I misread their website.

Thanks.

 

[Squizzy]

Notice how the resident Melbourne SDNers root for Melbourne - big surprise.

Born and bred Sydney-sider here and I admire Melbourne. I wouldn't leave the vibrant lifestyle of Sydney for Melbourne in a heartbeat though – nevertheless, Melbourne certainly has a certain understated charm.

As for the quality of medical education, the *only* thing that Sydney really lacks is actual dissections in anatomy and yes this is absolutely necessary imho for being a well-rounded doctor. I'm not sure whether Melbourne University has retained that.

 

[Squizzy]

Just wondering who are these actual USyd students, especially driedcaribou who is also in 3rd year.

 

[JCYL]

Notice how the resident Melbourne SDNers root for Melbourne - big surprise.

Born and bred Sydney-sider here and I admire Melbourne. I wouldn't leave the vibrant lifestyle of Sydney for Melbourne in a heartbeat though – nevertheless, Melbourne certainly has a certain understated charm.

As for the quality of medical education, the *only* thing that Sydney really lacks is actual dissections in anatomy and yes this is absolutely necessary imho for being a well-rounded doctor. I'm not sure whether Melbourne University has retained that.

We still do dissections for each body system, but the ratio of students to cadavers is like 10:1; in my opinion it's too crowded.

 

[Ezekiel20]

Notice how the resident Melbourne SDNers root for Melbourne - big surprise.

Born and bred Sydney-sider here and I admire Melbourne. I wouldn't leave the vibrant lifestyle of Sydney for Melbourne in a heartbeat though – nevertheless, Melbourne certainly has a certain understated charm.

As for the quality of medical education, the *only* thing that Sydney really lacks is actual dissections in anatomy and yes this is absolutely necessary imho for being a well-rounded doctor. I'm not sure whether Melbourne University has retained that.

Dissections are over-rated in my opinion. Back in undergrad, I spent 3-4 hours each week for a semester dissecting a head/neck cadaver, but all I got out of it is that there is a lot of fat in the human body.

I learnt much more from studying prosections and reading course notes, textbooks and atlases.

What really reinforced my understanding of anatomy in undergrad is the endless spot-tests we had. It's been a while since I've revised gross anatomy properly, but I still remember the '6 lateral rotators of the hip joint', major muscles and their nerve supplies, courses of important vessels etc, because I had to learn it over and over again for exams.

In the GMP, anatomy is taught but not reinforced (ie assessed) enough. The few spot tests we had in the GMP didn't count, and not too many people cared. Despite the claim that we are graduate-entry students and supposed to be able to organise our own learning, nothing makes students learn better & faster than the prospect of sitting an exam on the topic.

 

[Winged Scapula]

While examining prosections, books, atlases and the like is probably fine for most specialties, for those interested in surgery they lose a valuable tool: seeing anatomy in situ and learning the relationships.

Flinders did a terrible job with anatomy teaching - not because the instructors weren't knowledgeable but because they presented it as if it really wasn't important (not the anatomists and pathologists, but the rest of the administration) to being a good doctor - as long as you memorized some of the basic organs and structures, you would be right. So I memorized names of structures but really feel that, in the operating room, I was at a deficit for not knowing how things normally lie in relationship to each other - knowledge that is best gained by doing in vivo dissections yourself.

 

[driedcaribou]

Just wondering who are these actual USyd students, especially driedcaribou who is also in 3rd year.

I'm in 4th year mate!

 

[driedcaribou]

Dissections are over-rated in my opinion. Back in undergrad, I spent 3-4 hours each week for a semester dissecting a head/neck cadaver, but all I got out of it is that there is a lot of fat in the human body.

I don't disagree that dissections are generally over-rated but I think that if you dissected the same specimens now with the clinical knowledge you have now, you would view dissections differently. I think it's great you had the experience dissecting and it will serve you well.

The majority of people do not need to do dissections - but the mere motor skill and familiarity with the orientation of anatomical structures in the body is important for aspiring surgeons.

More spot tests are definitely a way to go but there is more to anatomy than just identifying organs.