"Medical Science" Masters Programs: A Review

[isoquin]

I've had a lot of people IM me lately regarding BU's Master's of Medical Science program. This, much like many other similar programs at institutions across the nation, has quite a few misconceptions about it that I'd like to go over here.

First and foremost: These programs are not automatic acceptances to medical schools. Many bleary eyed students fall into the belief/hope/prayer that getting into one of these programs is like getting in the back door of medical school, and that they get students out of first year classes if/when they eventually get to medical school. This isn't the case. It's more accurately described as a side door, which simply leads you back outside near the front door, so you have to apply to medical school just like everyone else.

Many applicants of BU ask me: "Don't they say that 80% get into med school from here?". That's actually not true. What they actually say (much like the key phrases of other schools) is purposely misleading, and should be carefully analyzed: '80% of the students who successfully complete the program and wish to be doctors get into medical school.' The fact is, not everyone completes the program. Some find that their grades aren't that great, and decide to leave the program instead of sinking further mountains of money into it. Others complete the program to get the Masters (which many consider a joke compared to any other masters degree) and realize their grades haven't dramatically improved enough to apply. Others find, after taking some first year med school classes, that medicine isn't right for them. Of those who do apply, some go to DO schools (not that there's anything wrong with that, but most of us are aiming for MD), some go to the Caribbean, and some become physicians' assistants. Some also go on to do other things which get them into med school, but the program will "take credit" for it anyway. The number of matriculants who get into a standard United States MD program because of this program is closer to 1 in 4. Clearly this number will differ from school to school, but the take-home lesson is that each school has some saying which is statistically misleading.

The 'why' of this leads me to the next point which students looking towards these programs tend to overlook: support. Most of these programs are simply money-making devices for the institution. Just about every major medical association sees the need for more doctors in America today. These schools have no problem creating these programs to sit you in the same classroom as medical students and take the same classes as them, but they'll stutter in surprise if you suggest they simply increase the med class size (after all, that's essentially what's happening when an extra 100 grad students are squeezed in with med students anyway). Simply put: they make more money if they tack on an extra year or two to your medical education. With that in mind, you should expect to be the less loved sibling compared to the med student sitting beside you. None of your tuition money will return to support you or offer any helpful services past the absolute bare minimum. There is no ranking for these types of programs, and thus the schools have no problem neglecting them. Some programs will only let you see the classes through live video feeds. Don't expect clubs or organizations. Don't expect student representation. Don't expect many professors to know your name.

With all that being said, it's not impossible to attain a medical career with these programs. While these aren't automatic acceptances, they are second chances for many of us. If you feel you can focus and dedicate your time to the classes, do well in these programs, and come through with a solid GPA, then this will help you reach your goal.

Keep in mind though, that this part of your education is designed to increase your GPA and/or MCAT. Many med schools don't care where you get the grade, just as long as you don't negatively influence the all-precious GPA average and thus their ranking. Medical Masters programs will throw you into difficult med school courses. Matching the med student average of 3.3 won't get you into med school, despite the fact that it will clearly show you have what it takes (crazy, no?). In fact, it's not uncommon for the masters student average to be higher then the med student average due to motivation: we simply have something to prove. In the end, it's not enough to show you are as good as a med student to get into med school - you must be better. For the lazy, this is certainly a let down. For those of us who seek out a higher standard and wish to be overly competant doctors, we openly accept the challenge.

I hope this mini-review gives you a better perspective on the field of graduate medical studies and your road to medical school. Please feel free to PM me here or respond with questions, the ever-entertaining trolling, or stories of your own.

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[halekulani]

So..
Is this a review of BU MAMS, specifically?
If your professors don't know you and resources aren't available to MAMS students, would you recommend that somebody go there? Is there any benefit OTHER than being able to take a class with a med student?

 

[isoquin]

This is just a general review. I have specific experience at BU, and did some decent homework with other similar programs from around the East Coast.

Each of them are really just designed to make money. Some are better then others (Drexel's live video feed classes, for example, are very sad...), but the bottom line is always the same: money. That was the message. It wasn't anti-BU, it was against these types of programs in general.

Keep in mind that straight post-bac work get included in your undergrad GPA, so some people find *that* avenue, instead of grad work, a better direction. I just wanted to wave off some of the misconceptions people have about these types of programs.

 

[cheezer]

This is just a general review. I have specific experience at BU, and did some decent homework with other similar programs from around the East Coast.

Each of them are really just designed to make money. Some are better then others (Drexel's live video feed classes, for example, are very sad...), but the bottom line is always the same: money. That was the message. It wasn't anti-BU, it was against these types of programs in general.

Keep in mind that straight post-bac work get included in your undergrad GPA, so some people find *that* avenue, instead of grad work, a better direction. I just wanted to wave off some of the misconceptions people have about these types of programs.

did it work out for you?

what were the fates of your other classmates

 

[rpm]

What were some of the other programs you looked at? And why did you pick BU over them?

 

[isoquin]

Fates of other classmates varied. My group of friends did well in the program I believe, but you can expect that type of group-bias: the people who all study hard together are more likely going to similarly succeed. Not everyone made it, but unlike my group of friends, I didn't hear much from those people. In other words, they kinda just fizzled away in my mind.

It's sad to think that BU is one of the better programs out there. I remember the director of Harvard Extension School told me not to go there specifically, even though I got in. He stated I was overqualified and it would be a waste of my time. However, for those who have salvagable undergrad GPAs, a straight post-bac program like Harvard Extension School might be what's needed. I remember rejecting Drexel because they were very pushy, and I didn't like the idea of video classes. I came from a very small liberal arts school, and so this idea was even worse then dragging myself out to Boston. BU's reputation pulled me in, but the actual facilities and student treatment were an unexpected surprise. Don't get me wrong, the profs themselves were great, but that's about it. For those of you thinking that's all you really need (as I had before), you're wrong.

 

[rpm]

The reason I want to look into SMP's is b/c doing a post-bacc won't help my gpa much since I have a lot of credits and even getting all A's won't really increase my gpa much. I think an SMP would be the best route to take.

As for the programs, I looked at BU, Tufts, Drexel, UMDNJ, and Mt. Sinai. I'm leaning towards BU, UMDNJ, or Mt. Sinai. BU seems to be a well-established program and I have heard a number of positive reviews. I don't have much stats on the UMDNJ program but since I'm a NJ resident, the cost won't be much. The Mt. Sinai program is relatively new but I have heard great things about it. It is very research intensive and they only take in a small number of people each year and you take classes with PhD and MD/PhD students. However, I don't have much stats on that program either as to what % get in to med school and the types of school they go to. If you have further info on UMDNJ or Mt. Sinai, that would be helpful.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Not to hijack this thread but I have found very similar things as isoquin did at the SMP-like program I did through VCU. I figure this is essentially a universal experience for people who do SMPs or SMP-like programs.

The VCU program was no doubt is a money maker for the school and people go in expecting that just cause they got in they will get into medical school. No doubt the administration plays it up to draw more people in while the reality is nowhere near what they promise. Furthermore, almost 1/3 of those who matriculated, never finished the program b/c they either withdrew or didn't maintain high enough grades to be allowed to finish.

With all of those negatives said, this program was perfect for someone like me who had something to prove. It would have taken me close to 3-4 years of post-bac work to improve my GPA to the point where I could be competitive yet it only took me 1 year through the VCU program. I feel (especially since I got in) that for those w/ low GPAs that there is nothing better than these programs. So with the bad, there is also a lot of good that can come out of these programs

 

[Nasrudin]

Not to hijack this thread but I have found very similar things as isoquin did at the SMP-like program I did through VCU. I figure this is essentially a universal experience for people who do SMPs or SMP-like programs.

The VCU program was no doubt is a money maker for the school and people go in expecting that just cause they got in they will get into medical school. No doubt the administration plays it up to draw more people in while the reality is nowhere near what they promise. Furthermore, almost 1/3 of those who matriculated, never finished the program b/c they either withdrew or didn't maintain high enough grades to be allowed to finish.

With all of those negatives said, this program was perfect for someone like me who had something to prove. It would have taken me close to 3-4 years of post-bac work to improve my GPA to the point where I could be competitive yet it only took me 1 year through the VCU program. I feel (especially since I got in) that for those w/ low GPAs that there is nothing better than these programs. So with the bad, there is also a lot of good that can come out of these programs

This is precisely the problem in my mind--trying to decide how to weigh the costs and benefits given more debatable need for one. With so many people not getting in or vice versa combined with the nebulous, secret and arcane methodologies of adcoms these speculative knaves have us jumping at crumbs while the bathe and lounge about in togas munching grapes........ok I need to step away from the sdn......

 

[postbacker]

Not to hijack this thread but I have found very similar things as isoquin did at the SMP-like program I did through VCU. I figure this is essentially a universal experience for people who do SMPs or SMP-like programs.

The VCU program was no doubt is a money maker for the school and people go in expecting that just cause they got in they will get into medical school. No doubt the administration plays it up to draw more people in while the reality is nowhere near what they promise. Furthermore, almost 1/3 of those who matriculated, never finished the program b/c they either withdrew or didn't maintain high enough grades to be allowed to finish.

With all of those negatives said, this program was perfect for someone like me who had something to prove. It would have taken me close to 3-4 years of post-bac work to improve my GPA to the point where I could be competitive yet it only took me 1 year through the VCU program. I feel (especially since I got in) that for those w/ low GPAs that there is nothing better than these programs. So with the bad, there is also a lot of good that can come out of these programs

The bolded statement above reflects the "dirty little secret" of UG based post bac programs, too - not sure of the exact numbers nationwide, but I assume that it is higher at some schools and lower at others - the attrition/flunk out rate is something that the post bac programs do not openly discuss...caveat emptor.

And some of the post bac programs advertising "linkages" are quite misleading in how available this is to the students (usually only the very top students get to take advantage of the linkages)...again, caveat emptor.

 

[Go Lance!]

I agree with the above posts. In my experience at BU there were many students who either dropped from the program (for various reasons) or who made such mediocre/terrible grades that they probably won't get into medical school. FYI...there were people who straight up failed courses.
This is a last chance at medical school admissions. If you take it seriously and study enough to get great grades, then it should pay off. Too many students think that they will just skate through the program and breeze into medical school. Not the case.
All of my friends, however, did really well and there is no doubt that we will all be admitted somewhere. On the other hand, none of us would have a chance without the opportunity to attend BU. I, for one, am very grateful for this type of opportunity to prove that I can be successful in medical school, and have a realistic shot at medical school admissions.
Take it seriously as your last shot for medical school, get at least a 3.7, and it will pay off. Otherwise you've just wasted $50k on a useless masters degree.

 

[TheGalvaniFrog]

I agree with the general sentiments of the OP: be cautious of jumping into a SMP, it leaves you in significant debt with no guarantee of success.

However, if you have a GPA hovering around the low 3.xx and already rejected from the first round of applying and still is dedicatd to getting a MD in mainland US, I see few other options than doing a SMP.

This is what Dr Meyers of Georgetown SMP said about the matriculation and rentention rates here:

These kinds of statistics can be manipulated a thousand ways, so we
calculate these things in a simple and straightforward manner.

Of every 100 students who ENTER the SMP, 90 to 95 successfully finish.

Of every 100 students who ENTER the SMP, 50 to 60 go to US medical
schools THE VERY NEXT YEAR. This calculation includes students who
drop out or fail out of the SMP at any point, a significant number who
don't even apply to medical school, aren't recommended by us, and a
couple who go to DO school.

Of every 100 students who ENTER the SMP, 80 to 85 go to medical school
eventually. This calculation includes students who drop out or fail
out of the SMP at any point, a significant number who don't even apply
to medical school, aren't recommended by us, a few who go to DO
school, and a couple who go to offshore schools.

Of every 100 students who ENTER the SMP, 100 students' fates depends
on their own individual performance, motivation, and dedication to
their goals.

Best wishes,

Dr. Adam Myers

 

[ssquared]

The reason I want to look into SMP's is b/c doing a post-bacc won't help my gpa much since I have a lot of credits and even getting all A's won't really increase my gpa much. I think an SMP would be the best route to take.

I just calculated how many undergrad credits of 4.0 it would take to get my GPA up to a 3.5. It would take 50 credits. 50! My GPA is a 3.3 (which isn't horrifically low, but not great either) but with the number of credits I have it would take forever to raise it. Hence, I'm going to an SMP.

I am aware that many SMP students do get poor grades, and that's not something that is advertised. I visited Drexel recently and they had the SMP students' course averages posted, and I was surprised by the number of B's, C's, and straight up F's. I have no idea what you do if you fail a medical school course, because it certainly means that medical school is not in your future.

 

[halekulani]

BU's reputation pulled me in, but the actual facilities and student treatment were an unexpected surprise. Don't get me wrong, the profs themselves were great, but that's about it. For those of you thinking that's all you really need (as I had before), you're wrong.

Could you elaborate?
Poor facilities? Campus isn't nice? What's wrong?

Student treatment - Professors standing you up? Med students giving you a hard time? Poor advising? What's wrong?

What did BU not offer that you would have liked?

 

[Go Lance!]

My experience at BU was great for the most part. The facilities are fine, not very glamorous. The professors are great. The only people who were a little hard to take were the support staff, in the entire school not just GMS. You just learn to deal with it.

 

[rich4k]

SDNers seem to refer to BUs "reputation." How much is that worth? I got into Tufts MBS and BU. Tufts is aiming for a class size of 30 with every student getting a faculty mentor. I'd MUCH rather have this small class size than the "100 grad students crammed into med school classes" as a previous poster said. But Tufts doesn't put you in a class with med students, they simply have professors teach the same class to the MBS students.

I think I'd be happier at Tufts, but the main goal is getting into med school. Do you think BU is better? A few of you seem to have specific experiences at BU...

 

[Remiller]

New or not, they'll take a portion of people that outperform the med students. Same goes for Drexel and the other linkage programs out there. They all require more work than any SMP student is used to.

PS I'm going to Tufts.

 

[isoquin]

Could you elaborate?
Poor facilities? Campus isn't nice? What's wrong?

Student treatment - Professors standing you up? Med students giving you a hard time? Poor advising? What's wrong?

What did BU not offer that you would have liked?

Poor facilities. The labs are in disarray, and I would never find them suitable for sterile technique. The nice areas are generally departments with money (Alzhemiers disease center, for example). The fact is, any institution must ballance their goals between making money, and producing a great education experience. Generally, the great experience comes as a result of the company investing their money back into the students to provide better facilities, equipment, comforts, etc. BU is almost entirely focused on making money, ESPECIALLY in its masters program.

The profs are the same as med school profs, so they are really on top of their knowledge. They are kind, approachable, and generally willing to help. As Lance said, it's everyone else that's a problem. The bureaucracy is tremendous. This, combined with a high level of incompetance is bound to frustrate every single student without fail. For example, if you send an e-mail to Susan Wilcox, the director of the division of graduate medical sciences, and she doesn't want to be bothered, she will claim she didn't receive it in the first place. I reached this conclusion from this same thing happening to almost all of my friends, sometimes several times in a row. However, if you CC another division head (the advice from the wonderful receptionists there), she can be held accountable and will change her story. The excuses are old and reused.

Med students are generally nice during the times you come in contact with them (which won't be often).

Advisors really vary. I know one person's advisor was brand new (so wasn't too familiar with the program), and then left after a year, leaving her with no one. Technically they get defaulted to a division dean as their advisor, but they are generally too busy for casual conversation. Oh what I've heard, Dr. Davies is an awesome advisor. She's also open to orphaned or immigrant advisees.

I hear many Tufts profs are coming to BU, but I don't know why. Honestly though, if I could pick between a program of 100+ per class, or 30, I'd have gone with the 30. It doesn't matter that the program is new. It's not like the profs needs to learn how to teach med courses - they've been doing that for years already. If Tufts is anything like BU, it's just giving the first year or two of med school to more students: effectively increasing the in-class size (and money) without increasing the med school class size. Newness probably won't play a factor in the program past scheduling changes for profs.

 

[halekulani]

thanks so much for your input.

 

[BethinWA]

OK, so from reading the OP, it seems that a medical science masters program is, basically, a waste of time unless you are having trouble getting into med school, right? Some of my friends were looking into this option. I'll pass the info on to them.

 

[halekulani]

OK, so from reading the OP, it seems that a medical science masters program is, basically, a waste of time unless you are having trouble getting into med school, right? Some of my friends were looking into this option. I'll pass the info on to them.

well it becomes more of a risk if you can get into med school without it. they're generally pretty difficult.

 

[sendwich]

Oh what I've heard, Dr. Davies is an awesome advisor. She's also open to orphaned or immigrant advisees.

very very true.


Isoquin, you really know your stuff.

 

[Maxprime]

FWIW, I was annoyed with BU's inability to return emails. The one reply I did get (in response to 3 quick questions I typed out) was "try calling us". Thanks, big help.

I spoke with the Bioimaging faculty and found them extremely curteous, helpful, and excited about the program. That being said, I went to their info session interested in MAMS and didn't even attend their session - just wasn't impressed. YMMV - none of this is to say it's a terrible program, just giving my experience.

 

[ddimples]

Wooow, this is really interesting stuff about BU MAMS. I was offered a spot in BU MAMS and also PCOM's post bac program. I've been heavily debating between the two programs for weeks now and need to finalize my decision. From reading all of these posts, it sounds like PCOM is the best program for me. Correct me if I'm wrong though. PCOM is definitely cheaper than BU and guarantees me an interview into their DO program, though I'm not guaranteed a seat. But getting an interview is already half the battle with applications.

Please let me know if you think I should change my mind and go to BU over PCOM.

 

[PlAnEjaNe]

Wooow, this is really interesting stuff about BU MAMS. I was offered a spot in BU MAMS and also PCOM's post bac program. I've been heavily debating between the two programs for weeks now and need to finalize my decision. From reading all of these posts, it sounds like PCOM is the best program for me. Correct me if I'm wrong though. PCOM is definitely cheaper than BU and guarantees me an interview into their DO program, though I'm not guaranteed a seat. But getting an interview is already half the battle with applications.

Please let me know if you think I should change my mind and go to BU over PCOM.

ddimples,

I have seen several of your posts about deciding between PCOM and BU, no one can really make that decision for you, only you can make that decision. I will say that the reason I turned down BU for UMDNJs program was because 1) I didn't like the fact that there were 100 students in the program, to me, that felt a little too much like undergrad and for a graduate program I wanted more individualized attention.
2) Cost. BU is waaaay more expensive than UMDNJ, plus, BU is essentially a 2 year program which means almost 100k in loans BEFORE starting med school...UMDNJ is a one year program and I will only be 40k in debt BEFORE starting medschool.
3) I feel that my chances are stronger at an osteopathic school rather than an allopathic school so if I can get to know the students and faculty at UMDNJ then I have a stronger chance of attending that school. At BU you are guaranteed an interview if you have a 3.5 but you are competing with 100 other students for a few GMS seats in the med school class.

If I were you I would ask yourself how strong of an applicant are you to allo/osteo schools without the smp, then ask yourself what the smp at BU will do to your app and what the smp at PCOM will do to your app (both in the academics as well as in the connections you can make as a student in either program). The decision is yours, there is no wrong program...both of those programs will help you get into medical school as long as you do well in them. The question is which program do you see yourself doing the best in?? And therein lies your answer.

-PlAnEjaNe

 

[ddimples]

ddimples,

I have seen several of your posts about deciding between PCOM and BU, no one can really make that decision for you, only you can make that decision. I will say that the reason I turned down BU for UMDNJs program was because 1) I didn't like the fact that there were 100 students in the program, to me, that felt a little too much like undergrad and for a graduate program I wanted more individualized attention.
2) Cost. BU is waaaay more expensive than UMDNJ, plus, BU is essentially a 2 year program which means almost 100k in loans BEFORE starting med school...UMDNJ is a one year program and I will only be 40k in debt BEFORE starting medschool.
3) I feel that my chances are stronger at an osteopathic school rather than an allopathic school so if I can get to know the students and faculty at UMDNJ then I have a stronger chance of attending that school. At BU you are guaranteed an interview if you have a 3.5 but you are competing with 100 other students for a few GMS seats in the med school class.

If I were you I would ask yourself how strong of an applicant are you to allo/osteo schools without the smp, then ask yourself what the smp at BU will do to your app and what the smp at PCOM will do to your app (both in the academics as well as in the connections you can make as a student in either program). The decision is yours, there is no wrong program...both of those programs will help you get into medical school as long as you do well in them. The question is which program do you see yourself doing the best in?? And therein lies your answer.

-PlAnEjaNe

Thanks for the advice! My apologies for my posts. I've just been so frustrated with having to make this decision. But luckily, I think I've finally figured it out =)

I didn't know they'd guarantee you an interview at BU if you have a 3.5? I've called them about that and they've made it perfectly clear that they don't favor GMS students over other applicants into their MD program and therefore do not guarantee GMS students anything. But regardless, you are correct, BU is waaaay expensive.

Best of luck to you at UMDNJ! I've heard great things about that program! I also have a friend who graduated from there a couple years ago and she's doing really well =)

 

[sendwich]

Thanks for the advice! My apologies for my posts. I've just been so frustrated with having to make this decision. But luckily, I think I've finally figured it out =)

I didn't know they'd guarantee you an interview at BU if you have a 3.5? I've called them about that and they've made it perfectly clear that they don't favor GMS students over other applicants into their MD program and therefore do not guarantee GMS students anything. But regardless, you are correct, BU is waaaay expensive.

Best of luck to you at UMDNJ! I've heard great things about that program! I also have a friend who graduated from there a couple years ago and she's doing really well =)

that's true, but if you have a 3.7+ and apply early, you have a great chance of getting in (even greater, since 30 GMS seats out of 100-200 kids (multiple classes) is still 15% at the least....but you have to also realize not every does well in the program, which only ups your chances if you do really well.)

my mistake this year wasn't not doing well. i think if i got my secondary app in a bit earlier (and the mishap w/ failing M1's didng happen this year), I would have gotten in my now. But that's only what I think


you can also finish the program in a year, if you don't have to study for the MCAT and do library thesis-->not pay $100K. you're right, though, BU is expensive.

 

[Mark84]

Well, from what I have read, you won't pay 100k if you do the BU program in two years. All the classes you have to complete are finished generally by mid June. The other two required semesters are for either a lab research thesis, or a library thesis, which I believe is like 2gs a semester equating to an extra 4 grand, not another 34gs worth of tuition.

 

[ephman90]

Alright, let me set the record straight...GMS is kind of a messed up little deal, but at the same time it is rad because it's all about can you walk the walk. It's almost like med school survivor: boston. I graduted in the summer of 2004 and started med school at Creighton in Omaha, NE 2 weeks later. Look at me now, an all knowing M4. GMS is all about what you put into it. I almost pooped myself the first week I was there b/c everyone is talking about how they invented a new MRI machine and their dad is the chief of medicine at harvard. But I was like, it's time to put up or shut up. For the first 6 weeks of biochem (your first big med school class ) I closed down the library every night and even then I felt like I didn't know enough. I did really well saw the dream becoming a reality and was like, "go for it." I met some awesome friends, all of us got into med school, all of us worked our ass off and we still keep in touch and reminisce about the lost year of our lives in Boston. But if you want something done in that program, you got to make it happen. The profs are awesome and they will chat with you about anything, but you have to make the first move. Also, although most people while you are there consider it a worthless masters, no one on the outside knows this. I want to go into orthopedics so on a whim I wrote my thesis on spinal fusion surgery under one of the ortho guys there. I was english major in college so a library thesis was right up my alley. He liked it a lot and thought I did a good job and he told me if I ever needed help down the road I should contact him. Lo and behold 3 years later, I realize it might not be a bad idea to get a rec letter from this guy who worked with me. I contacted him half expecting him not to remember me, but he did and said he thinks it is awesome that I want to do ortho and he would be happy to help. also, I have done some research for some ortho docs in town and when I told them about my thesis they wanted to read it. They too came away impressed. So the point I want to get across to anyone sitting there thinking about whether or not they can do it is dig down deep and make it happen. GMS has a lot to offer but you gotta be proactive about it. My friends and I made several hats with a large money symbol on it and we wore it all the time towards the end because in reality that's really all you are there: a giant walking money symbol. But in my opinion, it was money well spent. I take step 2 in 8 days and I am currently procrastinating, wish me luck. PM me if you have any questions...

 

[bds03]

My friends and I made several hats with a large money symbol on it and we wore it all the time towards the end because in reality that's really all you are there: a giant walking money symbol.

haha