Medical School In India

[iPremed]

Hey!

I was thinking of different options for medical school.

I am a sophomore at a top 35 university. I recently posted my grades on another thread named "losing hope" for anyone who wants to know them.

I am an Indian and have lived in the US from the age of 6. I was born in India though and am an Indian citizen but a US permanent resident.

If I study medicine abroad in India, it would be 5 years. (no undergrad necessary....I will have done 2 years of undergrad here in the US though). This would result in attaining an MBBS and then you can go on to do 2 more years to get an MD.

Language and culture wouldn't be a problem for me. I would probably be one of the oldest students for that graduating class however since I would be 20 at the time. Most of the entering students would be 17 - 18.

I don't know how this would work though since I have already studied 1.5 years of undergrad here and it will be 2 yrs by the time I start med school. Do any of you know people who have done this? Did they think it was worth it?

Would I have to take board exams to get in even though I have graduated from an AMerican high school and am attending college?

How easy is it to find a residency if I plan on practicing in the US? I don't know how this would be perceived since I have done all of my schooling in the US so far. Would it look bad if I went to India just for med school?

Also, since I am not an American citizen, would I be considered like an international student for residency if I graduate from medical school in a foreign country?

Do any of you know how exams compare to those in the US for med school?

Would this be worth doing?

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[BlondeDocteur]

If you want to live and practice in the United States, you should seek to train in the US. Stick it out and apply in the US. If you don't get in, you could go to India as a second choice.

Your chance of obtaining a residency position (any residency position) is much, much higher if you graduate from a US medical school, be it MD or DO. You would also have all medical specialties open to you, which is not the case for Indian grads.

As a permanent resident with a primary US residence, US names on your college and high schools transcripts, etc you will not be perceived as a foreign national but rather as an American who had to go overseas for school.

 

[nsap102]

Sounds like you're justifying going to Indian. But I agree with BlondeDocteur on this one.

Being an AMG, will open up so many doors for you. Being an IMG, on the other hand, will limit your options and cause you a lot of headache in the long run.

Residency program will give preference to American MD > DO > Foreign MD. I don't see this changing in the near future.

 

[medsRus]

Residency program will give preference to American MD > DO > Foreign MD.

Well, there are some foreign schools that would be considered before DO's including those in Israel, Australia, and Ireland/UK.

 

[Nick Name]

AMG is always the best way, surest way. You make contacts, you do rotations in American hospitals and know how thy do things there etc.

This week I interviewed at a place, and the person interviewing with me was US citizen, did med school at some school in the Punjab region. They had alot of interviews in California in medicine, and prelim surgery in New York. They really wanted to do surgery, did not get any categorical offers. They wanted to be in California (where they were from) but only got surgery residency offers n New York (and I also think Pennsylvania, but I may be remembering wrong). It had taken them a couple of years since graduation to get to the interview point - passing USMLE etc. They said if they had to do it over again they would have tried to go US med school - but they had family in India and some other things that drew them there. But they were doing it

 

[medsRus]

MedsRus,Based on my experience, I would say you are wrong in saying that foreign graduates would be considered before DO's. DO's not only have their own residencies but further have been considered before any FMG whether they are from Israel, Australia, UK, India, etc. It's just the way it is and no matter how much you push your pro-FMG agenda it's not changing in the near future.

I concede to your argument on DOs having more preference based on one and only one point you made: DOs would be considered first and last for osteopathic residencies, that's because they don't permit others from applying. So, they have the edge on AMGs too then...

Get real for a second, there is no hidden "pro-FMG agenda," just stating the facts. My previous posts have included statistical evidence from NRMP that other posters including moderators have either neglected or erronylously applied.

However, for allopathic residencies, there are several programs directors that have made it very clear (just look at resident lists) that they rather accept IMGs from respectable foreign schools (i.e. Israel, Australia, UK) than DOs, period. Moreover, a few have told me this personally. So, I would like to hear from programs directors on this issue. That's all that matters.

 

[Law2Doc]

Would I have to take board exams to get in even though I have graduated from an AMerican high school and am attending college?

Agree with those on this thread who have said that if you want to practice in the US, then you want to attend med school in the US. Your odds are simply better. The percentage of non-US grads who match is about 40%. Those non-US programs with US residencies tend to do a bit better than 40%, meaning that programs that are totally not in the US tend to do worse. So it's bad odds, period, coming from a foreign country.

As for boards -- you misunderstand the point. These are licensing exams. You don't get to bypass them by being a US college grad. Everyone who wants to be a practicing licensed US doctor, US or foreign, has to take and pass the step exams. As a foreign grad, you'd generally have to complete the step 2 exams earlier in the match application process, but everyone has to take them. You may have a harder time with the step exams not being educated under a system where testing tries to simulate that kind of question,

 

[iPremed]

thank you for all of your advice!

I will probably just end up trying to improve my GPA and attending a med school in the US

LawtoDoc, just to clarify, when I said board exams..i meant the indian ones to get accepted to a medical school (the ones generally taken in 12th grade there)

 

[Sarcoidosis]

I would exhaust options of getting into a US school. If that is not possible then decide about which foreign schools to go.

India is a very good option and they have NRI seats at some of the top schools which have affiliations with US hospitals similar to Carribean schools. Secondly the cost and convenience of attending these schools is much better than of US schools or Carribean schools. The quality of education is equal if not better as almost 40% of faculty at many of the Carribean schools are from India.

The other thing you can do is go to Indian school now, before completing your undergrad at US and start medical schooling early. This decision has to be an insightful one... if you know the type of student you are... and know that getting into a US school is not going to happen then decide to go now and save time and money.

Because it is not uncommon for foreign grads to loose sometime after graduation before they match into a residency, and you don't want to loose time before and after medical school if you can avoid it by going to an Indian med school that doesn't require undergrad.

 

[DocDrex1]

If you go foreign, I would first look into UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Israel. I think most physicians understand that the training at these places is superb. I'm sure Indian training (depending on the university) is excellent, but that doesn't mean program directors will acknowledge this. Also, in most of these countries, you'll be able to work there with a great standard of living. This is good in case you don't match to the specialty you want in the US.

Having said that, I think USMLE scores are the most important factor.

 

[medsRus]

If you go foreign, I would first look into UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Israel. I think most physicians understand that the training at these places is superb. I'm sure Indian training (depending on the university) is excellent, but that doesn't mean program directors will acknowledge this. Also, in most of these countries, you'll be able to work there with a great standard of living. This is good in case you don't match to the specialty you want in the US.

Having said that, I think USMLE scores are the most important factor.

In 100% agreement...

 

[JeffLebowski]

I would exhaust options of getting into a US school. If that is not possible then decide about which foreign schools to go.

India is a very good option and they have NRI seats at some of the top schools which have affiliations with US hospitals similar to Carribean schools. Secondly the cost and convenience of attending these schools is much better than of US schools or Carribean schools. The quality of education is equal if not better as almost 40% of faculty at many of the Carribean schools are from India.

The other thing you can do is go to Indian school now, before completing your undergrad at US and start medical schooling early. This decision has to be an insightful one... if you know the type of student you are... and know that getting into a US school is not going to happen then decide to go now and save time and money.

Because it is not uncommon for foreign grads to loose sometime after graduation before they match into a residency, and you don't want to loose time before and after medical school if you can avoid it by going to an Indian med school that doesn't require undergrad.

It's a little scary that people are taking advantage of ways around the U.S. medical school admission standards and on top of that, decide they don't want to "waste the extra time" it takes to satisfy those criteria in the U.S....to be a doctor in the U.S.

 

[Squiggy]

It's a little scary that people are taking advantage of ways around the U.S. medical school admission standards and on top of that, decide they don't want to "waste the extra time" it takes to satisfy those criteria in the U.S....to be a doctor in the U.S.

This is a really annoying backdoor into the US residency system. I knew asian people who once they started doing terribly in college went med schools in India and China. In my opinion it's the fobbiest move ever and many of those people I would never trust as my doctor. It's really scary as some of them are now in bottom bucket FM, IM, and psych residencies but it's a relief that they'll never be able to land jobs where I live.

What's nice is that USIMGs that go to third world schools often do crappy on their boards and have dismal match rates. If a US citizen can't get into a US med school, they should go to the UK, Ireland, Oz, or the Big 4 in the Carribbean where they are taught to modern standards and are on the better side of that 50% match statistic.

Luckily, MD schools are increasing enrollment over the next few years and DO schools will continue to expand, crowding out IMGs and closing this backdoor. This will give more opportunities to borderline students and take away opportunities from the crappy FOBs. I think Americans who choose to go abroad without even earning a bachelors, especially those who go now, are risking being destroyed in their future match. Without their undergrad degree, they have 0 marketable skills and are going to be humped w/no ability to repay their debt.

All in all however, this is just one crappy loophole in the US healthcare system which is full of crappy loopholes. We don't bother to expand our medical school seats when many more residencies are available, forcing often capable students to study abroad. Unlike all other countries, we don't provide any protectionism for USIMGs to give them a significant advantage against IMGs. It's pretty ridiculous because by taking in IMGs, PDs contribute to the brain drain in other countries by taking someone who probably already has a job in their country, while subjecting a capable American to financial ruin and wasting the knowledge they've acquired.

Well that concludes my rant for tonight. If I was a PD I would probably rank applicants in this order: USMD>USDO>USIMGs from UK/Ire/Oz>SGU>ROSS>Saba>AUC>USIMGs from everywhere else>IMGs. US-taxpayer funded residencies for Americans first.

 

[dragonfly99]

ipremed,
I'd recommend staying in the US and finishing your undergraduate degree. If you can go to a US school, it would make it easier on you - much easier- in terms of getting a residency. I wouldn't give up home as you're only a sophomore in college. Just try not taking too many credits/classes at once and use the academic help and advising systems available. You don't have to have an A in every single class. The most important thing is to be consistent and don't do really bad - avoid C's, etc. I'm sure there are a lot of good medical schools in India but they aren't training you for the US system specifically, and besides this I think it will get harder in coming years for Indian grads to get a residency here in the USA. You might not know this, but a lot of the US schools (MD and DO med schools) are expanding their class sizes right now, and new medical schools have been opening up. At the same time, residency sizes are not necessarily getting larger. So there won't be as many extra residency spots open for foreign graduates in a few years...there will likely still be some, but there won't be as many.

Importantly, because you are a US permanent resident, if you go to school abroad a lot of the US residencies will see you as someone who tried to take the easy way, dodge getting in to a US school, and just ran away to school in India. It might be unfair in a way, but that's what will happen to you. So I'd stay stick it out where you are. There is some risk involved in going for med school in India...it would suck majorly to go there and then not be able to get a residency here in the US. Also, what you don't realize is that as a premed you don't really know what kind of doctor you want to be. You might think you want to be in family practice or psychiatry (easy to get a residency in) but then you get in medical school and find out you love anesthesiology (not very easy to get in as a foreign graduate). Then you are hosed...so don't do that to yourself right now.

 

[Blade28]

I'd also recommend trying to get into a US school. It's going to be much harder to match into a US residency if you're coming from abroad (and you'd be considered an IMG).

From your previous thread, I calculated your cumulative GPA to be around 3.2 right now. That's not terrible - you have 2 more years' worth of grades to pull it up. But you have to really improve in your later courses, and you have to rock the MCAT.

Best of luck.

 

[Domperidon]

If I was a PD I would probably rank applicants in this order: USMD>USDO>USIMGs from UK/Ire/Oz>SGU>ROSS>Saba>AUC>USIMGs from everywhere else>IMGs. US-taxpayer funded residencies for Americans first.

Not going to happen...remember that US citizens going abroad to study are always seen as inferior to Non-US individuals who trained in their country of origin and for whatever reason want to come here.

 

[Waiting4Ganong]

Just wanted to add a bit of reality here. The plan of "If a US citizen can't get into a US med school, they should go to the UK" is a fairy tale. By law places for non-EU students are limited making admissions standards for international students at real UK medicals schools often at, or above, the level required to get a place in a US Medical school program.

There have however been a number of fake, pay-to-play, offshore medical schools renting out an office in cities in the UK and claiming to be "UK Medical Schools" - these cater solely to international, largely north American, customers. Only the idle rich and the terminally deluded would consider those places adequate training for the practice of medicine.

A list of the real UK medical schools can be found on the GMC (national medical board) website:
http://www.gmc-uk.org/education/undergraduate/awarding_bodies.asp


At the end of the day if you can't get a medical training in your own country you should think long and hard if medicine is for you. There are so many other routes to becoming a provider clinical care available to US citizens (PA-C, CRNP, etc etc) that have less demanding entry requirements, a similar job description to many primary care jobs, similar pay and conditions, equal contact with and impact on patient care. All that is missing is the title "doctor MD" (and if that is enough to chase to a rented office in a foreign country to find a back door into the medical system then I'd question if you have the psychological make-up to get through residency intact anyway).

To the US pre-medical student considering their options I'd say:

1) Do everything you can to get in a US MD medical school. The work it takes is a fraction of that you'll have to do in medical school and residency anyway. Includes Post-bacc, research years, grad school. Apply EVERYWHERE.

2) Consider DO schools in the US. I've met some EXCELLENT doctors who have a DO degree. The admission standards are easier and give people the second chance if a US Allopathic medical school is not an option due to substandard academic performance in undergraduate/MCATs.

3) If MD or DO schools aren't realistic options - ask yourself some hard questions. If you can't get into any medical school in your own country due to your low academic standards what makes you think that have the academic ability it takes to be a doctor anyway?

Trends are important here. If you can't get in because you have a 3.0 and it is all Bs you probably aren't being realistic about medicine as a career. If you have a 3.0 and it is from Cs in your first years and then all As in your final two years when you stopped being lazy/addressed your personal issues etc. then you might have more of a case that you have the ability to practice safely as a doctor.

While academic ability, intelligence and hard work are just some of the traits you need to become a good physician undergraduate education represents a a very low bar and you'll face much harder challenges in medical school/residency/practice.

A wise person once told me that a MCAT score in the very high 20s is a good self-check that you may have what it takes academically in the next stage.
MCAT has no relationship to clinical practice but is simply a test that a reasonably intelligent person can score highly (~30) on by putting in the right amount of work. If you can't do this how do you think you are going to do on the USMLEs?

Only for that small number of people with true reversible circumstances that prevented undergraduate academic performance deserving of admission to a USMD or DO school (eg: abusive spouse now divorced, personal health issue now treated, late bloomer now excelling) who have tried option 1 (postbacc, research, gradschool) and still can't get in - then, and only then, would I'd feel okay about suggesting an overseas school. Australia, Ireland and Israel have excellent medical education systems and take (at a price much higher than the natives pay!) international students. For the offshore schools the only positive thing I've heard is that Ross and St Georges, by report, have the potential to produce some good doctors.


In summary then, for the US student I'd say:

US MD > US DO > Australia, Ireland and Israel > Ross and St Georges > consider different healthcare career path.


Btw I agreed 100% with the statement below - I'm amazed people try to convince themselves otherwise:

>Not going to happen...remember that US citizens going abroad to study are always seen as inferior to Non-US individuals who trained in their country of origin and for whatever reason want to come here.


My experience has been residency selection goes for US MD > FMG with right to US greencard/citizenship who graduated from school in home country > FMG without US visa who graduates from school in home country with PhD or exceptional ability > US DO > US citizen graduating from Australia, Ireland, Israel, Ross or St Georges > The rest.