Medical Council review of Ireland Schools

[eastofnorth]

How many of you have read the Medical Council of Ireland's last review of Ireland's medical schools? It was published in 2003 and can be found here:

http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/education/schools.asp?NCID=35

or, more specifically, as a pdf here:

http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/_fileupload/downloads/Report_to_Public_2003.pdf

There are two major topics I am interested in. One, the use of international students as money-makers for the colleges and how this impacts the demographics, diversity, and morale of each class (in both good and bad ways). Two, the changes in curriculum (6 year to 5 year, BA/BS requirements, etc.).

I would love to hear from existing students how the demographics of their school affects them. In particular, I heard that Trinity has mostly women?

Also, I've read a little on the boards so far about the curriculum changes. Can anyone say more about it? In particular, I heard Trinity and Cork utilize problem-based learning, whereas RCSI is more lecture-based. Please correct me!

The report also says facilities vary for each school, but doesn't point out which are better than others, which are more focused on ______ over _____. Anyone care to share? =) Any great professors that overcome shoddy facilities?

I appreciate all the help that members of this forum have given. Before posting here, I spent time reading through everything. I've learned a lot - both from current students and new ones, Irish and International. I'm grateful that a community like this exists, and I hope to participate more as I explore my options!

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[LavenderLoraine]

How many of you have read the Medical Council of Ireland's last review of Ireland's medical schools? It was published in 2003 and can be found here:

http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/education/schools.asp?NCID=35

or, more specifically, as a pdf here:

http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/_fileupload/downloads/Report_to_Public_2003.pdf

There are two major topics I am interested in. One, the use of international students as money-makers for the colleges and how this impacts the demographics, diversity, and morale of each class (in both good and bad ways). Two, the changes in curriculum (6 year to 5 year, BA/BS requirements, etc.).

I would love to hear from existing students how the demographics of their school affects them. In particular, I heard that Trinity has mostly women?

Also, I've read a little on the boards so far about the curriculum changes. Can anyone say more about it? In particular, I heard Trinity and Cork utilize problem-based learning, whereas RCSI is more lecture-based. Please correct me!

The report also says facilities vary for each school, but doesn't point out which are better than others, which are more focused on ______ over _____. Anyone care to share? =) Any great professors that overcome shoddy facilities?

I appreciate all the help that members of this forum have given. Before posting here, I spent time reading through everything. I've learned a lot - both from current students and new ones, Irish and International. I'm grateful that a community like this exists, and I hope to participate more as I explore my options!

I'm afraid I can't offer much based on my own personal experience with RCSI since I haven't even begun yet. But while I was there last week, I was given last year's class schedule. For 1st med, the schedule shows case-based tutorials in groups (their version of PBL I imagine) on Monday for 2.5 hours, Tuesday for 3 hours, and Thursday for a total of 2 hours. Now I know this year's schedule is being altered from last year's so I expect this will change. In addition, I don't know if the PBL time is more or less relative to UCD, UCC, or Trinity.

As far as facilities go, I would say you can tell the main building where Admissions and Student Affairs is housed at RCSI was built in the 70s. It just has that look to it. They are making efforts to spruce it up a bit with paint, new lecture seats, etc. The lobby looks nice. Walking back toward the labs and cafeteria area, basement, etc. you can definitely tell that the building is older. I haven't seen the facilities at the other schools so can't really make a comparison.

 

[leorl]

I have looked at the file, but that was awhile ago so I can't remember much. The curriculum changes are happening but it's too soon at the moment to say how it's affecting the students and learning. In concept, things like introducing patient communication earlier is good (in the new 5 yr curriculum), but the practice of that has yet to be seen. Changes are just starting...the 5 year program is being started I think in Trinity this year, and it's meant to be nation-wide in 2007, although it might not move as quickly. The notion is that they will gradually shift medicine to being a post-graduate degree (like it is in the US), and allow more people who have previous science degrees to enter medicine (at the moment if you're Irish, only 2-3 or so "mature students" will be accepted into the direct entrant class). I don't know how this affects admissions from the US for people who do not have science degrees and are currently matriculating into the 6-yr. programs. A shift to 5 vs 6 yr. programs is also being done to make medical education run more efficiently, without so much time-wasting and shuffling around.

The rumor is that the schools were forced to change to this system and a more PBL oriented program in order to remain accredited, although I don't know the truth to this or the reasons why, but it happened very quickly. As such, it seems all schools are going through changes, and we can't look either ahead of us or behind us to see a consistent pattern of anything because each year has had something different done to it. They are still playing around to find the best combinations and find what works and what doesn't. The first year PBL was introduced (the year below me, ha!) at Trinity, it was a disaster...as teachers weren't accustomed to this new system and it's hard coordinating subject systems at first. But they learned what they needed to, and it seems they are improving in finding a balance. Will keep you updated as to how things are progressing.

Needless to say, this can be a source of frustration. But all programs do need to keep changing to keep up with improvements in the medical field as a whole, so unfortunately at this time period, we get to be guinea pigs. Eventually, they will get something constant set up. And when they get everything worked out and PBL more integrated, I can see this working out very well. But I don't see this happening in the near future. I do not think this affects the quality of education though, and I don't see any completely disastrous effects. But it does create frustration for the students sometimes since we don't exactly know what is planned or why or how this affects us. My class is one of the first to be affected (although we didn't have PBL, the curriculum change brought timing changes that meant we lost a month of elective time...I still don't understand it) and it caused war. But ended up ok in the end, you just have to make sure that you as students do not just sit back and take things, but if there is something that causes concern, to question it as a class. Things have sometimes not been brought out in the open because people just don't ask the right things or know what to ask. But my class is very proactive so that helps. It turns out when things are brought to air instead of bottled in with rumors festering that the answer is much more reasonable and doable than you think.

 

[leorl]

Sorry for the long posts.

Regarding facilities...it depends what you look for. I think RCSI would have the "newest" most modern facilities, as that's what RCSI's (tuition, heh) money does. Trinity has good facilities in the teaching hospitals...both hospitals have had recent renovations in the hospital teaching centers. The facilities on campus are a bit old, but I think that adds to the charm. The wooden floor and tiered ampitheater makes you think you're walking straight into a 1920s black and white movie, but it's cool! All schools would probably have up-to-date computer labs and things. Trinity and UCD would have very large library resources...I know Trinity at least is a holding library, which means copies of all books (I don't quite know what they mean by that, it's not possible to have all western books in the world) is accessible. I don't really know that much about the others, but UCC wouldn't be shabby. None of the schools would have dire facilities, and I don't think it matters much...the learning is through books/teachers. (well, labs too but who ever really pays attention in lab)

 

[leorl]

Last post for right now. Yes, international students fund 73% of Irish medical education. This is one of the reason why international acceptances are quite high (50% roughly of each class). Whether you agree with this is a moot point. Irish students do not pay fees, it's government subsidized. So schools are dependent on foreign money, especially at this time when the government is decreasing money allotted to the universities. So they capitalize on the fact that we want to come and are willing to pay because it may be slightly cheaper than US private colleges, but it's more fees than they get from their own Irish students.

Trinity med students do seem to be more female (I think it's like 60-40), but the Irish students don't interview. It's based on the number of points they get on their leaving cert. So if women at the moment are doing better on the leaving cert than men...can't argue with that .

 

[dr strangelove]

Trinity med students do seem to be more female (I think it's like 60-40), but the Irish students don't interview. It's based on the number of points they get on their leaving cert. So if women at the moment are doing better on the leaving cert than men...can't argue with that .

Nope, you can't. My brother was one of the lucky guys to get into TCD via the LC this year (590 points - bloody ridiculous!), so it's not as if I can say it's unfair that girls are doing better.

But here's a question, and hopefully the ladies on the board don't take it the wrong way, but is the sexual imbalance in medical schools a mistake? When women graduate, most (there are some exceptions) plan to have a family and therefore will only work part-time. The fact is that the Irish healthcare system is already short-handed - take a look around an Irish hospital, especially the country ones and you'll see a large amount of doctors from the Asian subcontinent and Africa. This is because 1) we're not training enough of our own doctors and 2) I think 20% of Irish doctors leave upon graduation, because postgrad training in Ireland isn't very good. If the number of women getting accepted continues to increase, don't you think it will further exacerbate the existing shortage in healthcare in Ireland? Anyway, I wouldn't want to be there when the entire system comes crashing down!

Here in the UK they seem to have recognised the shifting demographic in medicine, and have increased the number of medical school places accordingly to deal with the greater number of part-time doctors in the future. So, more women are getting in because they get better results still, but due to the increased places there are also more men.

The entire Irish system's screwed though when you consider some of our science graduates can get into the top medical schools in the UK and we're not even eligible to apply for some of the schools in our country.

 

[eastofnorth]

Needless to say, this can be a source of frustration. But all programs do need to keep changing to keep up with improvements in the medical field as a whole, so unfortunately at this time period, we get to be guinea pigs. Eventually, they will get something constant set up. And when they get everything worked out and PBL more integrated, I can see this working out very well. But I don't see this happening in the near future. I do not think this affects the quality of education though, and I don't see any completely disastrous effects. But it does create frustration for the students sometimes since we don't exactly know what is planned or why or how this affects us.

Thank you so much for such a thorough post, Leorl -- I'm really grateful for your participation on the boards. Please do keep me updated. I've been involved in department organization and curriculum development at my previous schools, and I've seen how keenly morale of the staff and students is affected by institutional changes and money stresses.

This is why I have no personal complaints about recruiting international students. I love to see good academics that are well-funded and well-matriculated by highly motivated people!

Because of the limits on admissions for "mature students," are the majority of students between 18 and 25? How does this affect the social life of incoming international students who may be older? I know I get along with people of all ages, but I've read some blogs which express dismay at the age differences. But perhaps that's just because 18 year old males look quite different from 25 yr old males...

I apologize if some of my own questions seem ignorant or insensitive -- I've only just started researching into Irish healthcare, including Irish medical schools. Because of this, I have no answer for your questions, Dr Strangelove, but I look forward to seeing everyone else's response.

 

[leorl]

northeast, The majority of the Irish are 18, yes. The North americans will obviously start at 22, some may be older (even in 30's or 40's). This doesn't really affect anyone socially. A 25 y.o. likes to party just as much as an 18 y.o. In class, they do respect our greater experience whether it be in academic work or life experiences. And likewise, it's refreshing to see people who may be encountering material for the first time. So in helping them understand things (tutoring or just throwing in explanations now and again), you are helping yourself by reinforcing what you know. If you have a social class with lots of people that love having fun, age doesn't matter at all . I think it has more to do with class dynamics than the ages of people. My class gets along really well and you never really think of someone as older when they're at the same stage of their careers as you are...everyone's a novice going into clinicals (unless you've been like a dentist or something before)..and those who aren't help get the others up to speed.

Dr. Strangelove, I don't consider women entering the workforce as a hindrance. Sure, some will be family-minded and and choose more "lifestyle" careers, but there will always be women who are "career-driven" and go for the careers that aren't so forgiving either (surgery). I actually observed a rather robustly pregant registrar still in the OT performing surgery, so obviously she didn't really think of relaxing a bit! I don't think that the ratio of women is so high that they will overrun the medical profession, there will always be men keen to enter fields that may not be lifestyle friendly. Sure, it's even observable now with all fields of surgery - they're male dominated already. Women just recently started to "break in," and more are entering. So...fear not. And to be honest, the only doctors who can really work part-time...are higher ranking doctors. So if they don't want to work so much, there will be someone else who will...whether male or female.

I think the Irish do need to take in more Irish who will stay. Somehow make staying attractive. The reason a lot of Irish go abroad for fellowships is because it will hasten their progression to consultant level or at least sp reg. level. Ireland needs to create more openings for consultants or higher level doctors...basically needs to expand their health professional force, in order to shorten the length of residency/being stuck at registar level. In otherworlds, the whole health sector needs a lot more money. It's a conundrum at the university level. You need 50% of the class to be international in order to continue education operations and make a little profit maybe for supplies and equipment. But at least 80% of those internationals will eventually leave, along with Irish who want experiences abroad. So it's a trick that Ireland...and actually all of Europe has to work on to attract nationals ...and even very good internationals to come or want to stay. Something needs to be done in Europe to decrease the brain drain.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Hey all

are there other irish schools besides those the Atlantic Bridge programs represents?

 

[ockhamsRzr]

Hey all

are there other irish schools besides those the Atlantic Bridge programs represents?

Yes, there's UC Galway. That's the only other. I emailed them but no one ever got mack to me...

Ockham

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

I guess one of the things im wondering about is acceptance rates

How many people typically apply to the ABP and what percentage gets in? It seems Irish schools take more than and UK from North America. It is hard to plan your life around something you dont know is going to happen.

 

[Sage880]

Yes, there's UC Galway. That's the only other. I emailed them but no one ever got mack to me...

Ockham

Apply to them directly through their website. I did it a couple years ago - wasn't too much hassle.

Galway is a beautiful school. The fact that their program is small was part of my decision not to go there but in retrospect, it doesn't matter and they have a great campus/school. No complaints about Cork though!

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Apply to them directly through their website. I did it a couple years ago - wasn't too much hassle.

Galway is a beautiful school. The fact that their program is small was part of my decision not to go there but in retrospect, it doesn't matter and they have a great campus/school. No complaints about Cork though!

Hey

Well i have already submitted my app through ABP for UCC, UCD, Trinity and Royal College. I have an email sent to Galway to see how i can apply to them.

 

[leorl]

It used to be ABP said the rate was 1 out of 10 applicants. I think now it's 1 out of every 14 applicants...they'll tell you if you ask. It might be a good venture to check NUIG out. I've met some NUIG medics (Irish, not American) and they seem quite happy there. NUIG is a beautiful school but Galway could be too small for people who like busier places.

 

[bulletproof]

It used to be ABP said the rate was 1 out of 10 applicants. I think now it's 1 out of every 14 applicants...they'll tell you if you ask. It might be a good venture to check NUIG out. I've met some NUIG medics (Irish, not American) and they seem quite happy there. NUIG is a beautiful school but Galway could be too small for people who like busier places.

not that i have anything too much of value to add except that in contrast to all of you I am an Irish student studying medicine in the US. Well...technically I ended up going to Ross in the Caribbean, but back now starting rotations. I just venture on here now and again when I get homesick. Getting into Irish med. as an Irish student is a nightmare. Eight years ago when I applied there I had a 525 out of 600, which i believe at the time was 99th percentile of all test takers for the leaving cert. I was talking to my brother who informed me that this year NURSING required point in the 500's such was the demand to get into it. The system is crazy...particularly when, as has been noted, the Irish system could well do with more homegrown Docs. I don't get to get back as often as I would like but thus is medicine. BTW Galway is smaller, but one hell of a town...i enjoyed many good nights there. Ah well...to all currently in ireland or heading there, enjoy it. If anyone has any questions regarding all things Irish feel free to pm me, although Leorl seems to keep you all well up to date. She prolly knows more about the country than I do at this stage. anyway, enough nostalgic rambling for me....back to step prep...five weeks baby. Good luck.

 

[dr strangelove]

not that i have anything too much of value to add except that in contrast to all of you I am an Irish student studying medicine in the US. Well...technically I ended up going to Ross in the Caribbean, but back now starting rotations.

Wow, you had to go pretty far afield to get the medical degree bulletproof! Are there any other Irish out there with you? I got into the 4 year SGU course myself, but my parents weren't willing to pay the fees so it was off to Glasgow for a free education courtesy of the British taxpayer instead!

 

[leorl]

I think this is part of why they're doing the curriculum change. Accepting only people with a 590 leaving cert score is like US med schools only accepting people who got a 40+. Or maybe even higher like 42. And the only reason it's like that is because of the demand for studying medicine. Someone scoring that high does not mean they'll make better doctors than someone who got like a 560 (isn't that where the cutoff used to be?!) With no interviews, no personal statements, nothing. So with a system that can allow people to get a science degree first and have to go through interviews, it offers more opportunity. They really need to find some way to open more spots for the Irish (even if it means not making 50% of a class international), which essentially means finding a way to get more money and focus on decreasing brain drain.

 

[leorl]

And the people who get in are like...bred from The Institute! Heh.

 

[bulletproof]

Wow, you had to go pretty far afield to get the medical degree bulletproof! Are there any other Irish out there with you? I got into the 4 year SGU course myself, but my parents weren't willing to pay the fees so it was off to Glasgow for a free education courtesy of the British taxpayer instead!

yeah...its been one hell of a ride. I had the american citizenship, and was working in the states when leaving cert results came out so, just decided to stay and pursue med. here....did undergrad in chicago...partied a little too hard and GPA suffered ( yada yada )...went to Ross. Never even looked into british med or applying to Ireland as a US citizen willing to pay ( ironically probably would have got accepted.) I had not discovered SDN back in my undergrad days. If I had Britain/Ireland look like great paths. Nevertheless I have truly enjoyed the experience....chicago...dominica...barbados..st. lucia...guadaloupe...miami...chicago. And I get to go home every once in a while. So....glasgow eh? very nice...what year are you in? Are you familiar with the process of working in Ireland with a non-Irish diploma? I imagine it would be easier given that you are getting yours from within the EU. I would just like to keep my options open with regard to returning there some day, although I like the states and have family here..so. I have to hand it to you..getting the education on the taxpayer is always a bonus
I will have ~ $180,000 in loans Lets hope that anesthesia/pain mngmt reimbursements stay high over the next 20-30 years,as that is most likely where I am headed. In answer to your original question...we had an Irish prof. Dr. Aidan Curran...phD in physio...nice guy, and I met a Dublin fella who was part of a turtle conservation effort on the rock....great craic, if two beers short of a six pack. No other Irish students though. Good luck with the studies in glasgow.

 

[bulletproof]

I think this is part of why they're doing the curriculum change. Accepting only people with a 590 leaving cert score is like US med schools only accepting people who got a 40+. Or maybe even higher like 42. And the only reason it's like that is because of the demand for studying medicine. Someone scoring that high does not mean they'll make better doctors than someone who got like a 560 (isn't that where the cutoff used to be?!) With no interviews, no personal statements, nothing. So with a system that can allow people to get a science degree first and have to go through interviews, it offers more opportunity. They really need to find some way to open more spots for the Irish (even if it means not making 50% of a class international), which essentially means finding a way to get more money and focus on decreasing brain drain.

I agree....the system is truly ridiculous, and is long overdue for an overhaul. When a person who gets 6 A2s ( 540 ) can't get into a program there is something wrong with the system. I only hope that the interviewing system works to minimize bias and favoritism ( nepotism ). Ireland used to be notorious for that kind of thing. Hopefully things have changed. And yeah having completed the basic science component of a medical degree I can attest it is not so much the intellectual challenge as it is the capacity to memorize large volumes of data...in which regard anything over a 400-450 points wise would be sufficient. But you are right...it is all about demand, and the limited number of seats. A girl from my hometown is repeating her leaving cert this year because she only got 2 A1s and 4 A2s. What a failure? Now if only the examiner had thought her four page essay on "social/political topic x" had been more informed. Its enough to drive one to drink. I can empathise with her...when I got my result back at the age of 18...I felt like a loser....law and German at trinity...I don't think so. Had I been thinking straight I would have taken the spot at trinity, and then gone to Ross, and would be graduating this year with a med. diploma on top of the law degree. Oh well..two roads diverged in a yellow wood.

 

[dr strangelove]

what year are you in? Are you familiar with the process of working in Ireland with a non-Irish diploma? I imagine it would be easier given that you are getting yours from within the EU. I would just like to keep my options open with regard to returning there some day, although I like the states and have family here..so. I have to hand it to you..getting the education on the taxpayer is always a bonus
I will have ~ $180,000 in loans Lets hope that anesthesia/pain mngmt reimbursements stay high over the next 20-30 years,as that is most likely where I am headed. In answer to your original question...we had an Irish prof. Dr. Aidan Curran...phD in physio...nice guy, and I met a Dublin fella who was part of a turtle conservation effort on the rock....great craic, if two beers short of a six pack. No other Irish students though. Good luck with the studies in glasgow.

I'm going into 2nd year. No problem with returning to work in Ireland, but why would I want to go back to a country that wouldn't train me as a doctor? At least, that's the way I feel at the moment. Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world now and we're expected to believe that it can't afford to educate its own citizens as doctors to match the demand from the population? Give me a break... It's probably because the government finds it cheaper to recruit Asian and African doctors rather than train Irish people. A lot of things would have to change in Ireland for me to want to go back.

In contrast to this, the Brits are paying £40,000/year (total - £200,000) to educate me as a doctor. Pretty decent of them. I feel a bit more morally obliged to remain in the UK, for a while at least, and give something back.

I agree....the system is truly ridiculous, and is long overdue for an overhaul. When a person who gets 6 A2s ( 540 ) can't get into a program there is something wrong with the system. I only hope that the interviewing system works to minimize bias and favoritism ( nepotism ). Ireland used to be notorious for that kind of thing. Hopefully things have changed. And yeah having completed the basic science component of a medical degree I can attest it is not so much the intellectual challenge as it is the capacity to memorize large volumes of data...in which regard anything over a 400-450 points wise would be sufficient.

Agreed. Medicine (at least the 1st year) is not very hard. With a science degree, it becomes a farce, stuck in classes you could lecture. The frustrating thing is I remember how difficult 1st science was: I had to get outside help for physics, and the only way I got honours in maths was by memorizing the theorems! Reduced echelon matrices still bring me out in a cold sweat. You work so hard to get into medicine, and then you discover that it's easier than science all along. It's a huge disappointment, and the main reason I did not enjoy my 1st year academically. A fortnight of study after a hard year of partying got me a B. I felt no sense of acheivement. The sad thing is that they're people who fail every year. If I had got in 4 years ago, I wouldn't be getting a B in 2 weeks, but I sure as hell wouldn't have failed the year!

400 points is definitely enough for someone to be good enough to study medicine if they work hard. My brother was telling me the other night that they actually let Arab students into RCSI on 425 points, so you're right on the ball! So much for the LC being fair and transparent though!

 

[leorl]

I'm going into 2nd year. No problem with returning to work in Ireland, but why would I want to go back to a country that wouldn't train me as a doctor? At least, that's the way I feel at the moment. Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world now and we're expected to believe that it can't afford to educate its own citizens as doctors to match the demand from the population? Give me a break... It's probably because the government finds it cheaper to recruit Asian and African doctors rather than train Irish people. A lot of things would have to change in Ireland for me to want to go back.

You're right, a lot of things do have to change. But I don't think Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world, especially after the fall in the economy. One of the most expensive, yes...but they're quite good at throwing money down the drain. There are cutbacks everywhere, from university funding and staffing to shortages in health care (i.e. whole AE departments having to shut down). I don't think it costs the government any less to recruit/employ foreign doctors over irish ones...there's no tax breaks or to my knowledge, discrimination in pay. What the hospitals WOULD have to do is sponsor the work visa, so essentially would be paying out money, not receiving money. And in terms of education, they rely on foreign student money. Yes it's cheaper for them because they're setting up governmental exchanges where they probably earn some money and make profits. But show me an Irish person willing to pay at least 24,000 euro in fees. Or even 8,000 in fees.

Foreign students aren't taking Irish places. It's always been a 50% allocation, and that has never changed. There should be more Irish places, and there should be more funding for Irish med education. But foreign students don't, and never have, taken spots away from the Irish which is something some Irish students have a hard time understanding. Education is also a business and departments do have to plan accordingly in order to stay afloat. In some respects, you could say they are buying their way into medicine, and it doesn't seem quite fair. But in other places in the world, buying your degree is commonplace and so for them, isn't a big deal - but this would get into the argument of "elitism" in education. Still, it doesn't change the fact that a specific number of places were allocated for those willing to pay, and it does not encroach on the number of places allotted to Irish students.

 

[dr strangelove]

You're right, a lot of things do have to change. But I don't think Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world, especially after the fall in the economy. One of the most expensive, yes...but they're quite good at throwing money down the drain. There are cutbacks everywhere, from university funding and staffing to shortages in health care (i.e. whole AE departments having to shut down). I don't think it costs the government any less to recruit/employ foreign doctors over irish ones...there's no tax breaks or to my knowledge, discrimination in pay. What the hospitals WOULD have to do is sponsor the work visa, so essentially would be paying out money, not receiving money. And in terms of education, they rely on foreign student money. Yes it's cheaper for them because they're setting up governmental exchanges where they probably earn some money and make profits.

I think only Luxembourg in the EU is better off. There's no doubt that Ireland has surpassed that the UK anyway, yet the UK can still afford to pay for me, a non-UK citizen to be educated as a doctor. I won't argue with you about them being good at throwing money down the drain. There is an awful lot of waste... But still not enough to explain the discrepancies.

I agree with you with regard to foreign doctors in that there is no discrimination in pay or tax breaks so they won't save there, but my point is the government is saving huge money on education! The UK government will pay £200,000 to train me, while the Irish government will pay £32,000 to educate an Irish student. Don't tell me you don't think it's ridiculous and they could easily pay more?

But show me an Irish person willing to pay at least 24,000 euro in fees. Or even 8,000 in fees.

There was a guy up in Donegal who was willing to and that actually took it to court - "of discrimination on grounds of nationality". His family was quite well off and he's arguing that he should be allowed the same entry requirements as foreign students if he paid the same amount of money as them. Arbitration expected within the next 2-3 months. On one hand, it's hard to deny the logic of this. He's paying for his education. But can you imagine the scandal this would create in Ireland if rich Irish students could pay to get easier entry requirements?

I'd be willing to pay 8 grand myself, and my parents would probably have paid 24 grand to get me in had it been an option. And my results in the LC were nowhere near as low as 425 points.

Foreign students aren't taking Irish places. It's always been a 50% allocation, and that has never changed. There should be more Irish places, and there should be more funding for Irish med education. But foreign students don't, and never have, taken spots away from the Irish which is something some Irish students have a hard time understanding. Education is also a business and departments do have to plan accordingly in order to stay afloat. In some respects, you could say they are buying their way into medicine, and it doesn't seem quite fair. But in other places in the world, buying your degree is commonplace and so for them, isn't a big deal - but this would get into the argument of "elitism" in education. Still, it doesn't change the fact that a specific number of places were allocated for those willing to pay, and it does not encroach on the number of places allotted to Irish students.

50%? The Irish Times said this year it was over 60%. I'm not saying they're taking Irish places though. I know those places were never Irish to begin with, but the fact is that those places could be educating Irish people in a country that is desperately short on doctors. The government should be making those places available to Irish people by putting the money into the education system. Seriously, is there any other country in the EU where the number of places for domestic students is fixed, and its at the university's discretion as to how many foreign students they take in? It's almost the complete opposite in the UK! The only thing I have a hard time understanding is why there's such chronic underinvestment in Irish medical schools.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

dr S


How is it the UK goverment is paying for your medical education? Is this something avaliable for everyone? Or just EU ppl?

 

[leorl]

I had a nice reply all typed out, but SDN lost it on me. Essentially Dr. S, I said that I completely agree with you.

 

[bulletproof]

I think only Luxembourg in the EU is better off. There's no doubt that Ireland has surpassed that the UK anyway, yet the UK can still afford to pay for me, a non-UK citizen to be educated as a doctor. I won't argue with you about them being good at throwing money down the drain. There is an awful lot of waste... But still not enough to explain the discrepancies.

I agree with you with regard to foreign doctors in that there is no discrimination in pay or tax breaks so they won't save there, but my point is the government is saving huge money on education! The UK government will pay £200,000 to train me, while the Irish government will pay £32,000 to educate an Irish student. Don't tell me you don't think it's ridiculous and they could easily pay more?


There was a guy up in Donegal who was willing to and that actually took it to court - "of discrimination on grounds of nationality". His family was quite well off and he's arguing that he should be allowed the same entry requirements as foreign students if he paid the same amount of money as them. Arbitration expected within the next 2-3 months. On one hand, it's hard to deny the logic of this. He's paying for his education. But can you imagine the scandal this would create in Ireland if rich Irish students could pay to get easier entry requirements?

I'd be willing to pay 8 grand myself, and my parents would probably have paid 24 grand to get me in had it been an option. And my results in the LC were nowhere near as low as 425 points.



50%? The Irish Times said this year it was over 60%. I'm not saying they're taking Irish places though. I know those places were never Irish to begin with, but the fact is that those places could be educating Irish people in a country that is desperately short on doctors. The government should be making those places available to Irish people by putting the money into the education system. Seriously, is there any other country in the EU where the number of places for domestic students is fixed, and its at the university's discretion as to how many foreign students they take in? It's almost the complete opposite in the UK! The only thing I have a hard time understanding is why there's such chronic underinvestment in Irish medical schools.

Basically I agree with the sentiment expressed in your past two pasts, including the "why would I return to a country that would not train me?" line of reasoning. I am just about to take my first licensing exam and am intent on completing residency and fellowship in the states, after which I will work here. I guess I am just keeping my options open. IF I ever were to work there I can guarantee you It would be as a consultant/lecturer, or not at all. The market is too good in the states for me to be "accepted" into the Irish system at a lower position ( this of course is contingent on me actually finishing med school + residency + fellowship + not having a stroke in the meantime.)



The state of " education of Irish doctors" is a shambles. You hit the nail on the head. We have so many excellent candidates who would make great docs, and they are fleeing to england, scotland, US, west Indies
, etc. to get their education.The system which ignores them ultimately does not deserve their services. You are to be commended on your steadfastness, and desire to repay the country that is educating you with your service. In any event, just to make my stance clear, My beef is not with all the foreign students going there to get an education ( good luck to you all). One day, when some politicians mother is lying on a gurnee, and the doc taking the H & P can't understand her because they're fresh off the plan from the middle east ( wherever), maybe then the headlines will read " national disgrace: government to increase slots for Irish students in medicine". Just calling it the way I see it. Good luck in 2nd med Dr. S.

 

[medgirl20]

Seen as the government have a cap on the no of places available for Irish medical students, 305 places for Irish and EU students together and approx 515 places for foreign students we are always going to be short of Irish docs.

We're not all Institute bred Leorl!! Though many people in my class were suprised when i told them I never set foot inside the Institute or any other grind school and I went to my local mixed free school.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

This is an excellent conversation and very informative.

Dr S has been very helpful to me in explaing some of the entry points for US/Can students to the UK med schools. I assume that only EU redisents are eligible for the free med school in the UK (makes sense) but im very interested in elarning about my options in the UK as well.

Do any of you know which schools may be more open to Canadian/American students? Which take more or look highly on experience (im 31 and an RN). I am applying to the ABP program as well as Galway but i would also like to apply to UK schools. My understanding from Dr S is that you can apply to 4 in a given application year. Also that the UK schools do not take many internationals in general.

Any other advice?

 

[saphenous]

Mike, if u feel limited with the 4 choices i would personally avoid edinburgh, cambridge, oxford,and imperial. Oxbridge requires the bmat and edinburgh i think requires at least a 30 on the mcat. hope this helps.


Cheers, Saph

 

[saphenous]

also, the 5 year programs seem slightly less competitive than the 4 yr ones.
hope this helps.


Cheers, Saph

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Hey

thanks saph!

Im not going to be top 10% but ill be realitively competitive. If i dont have to take them MCAT then WOOHOO for me. I actually like the idea of the 5 year programs and from what ive heard they are less stressful and spread out a bit. That would be cool.

anyone else have other UK school ideas so i can shorten the list?

 

[Sage880]

I agree....the system is truly ridiculous, and is long overdue for an overhaul. When a person who gets 6 A2s ( 540 ) can't get into a program there is something wrong with the system.

I agree. I can't believe the cut off was 590 for this year! That's such a crazy score. I helped an Irish student with his leaving cert and I did a university degree in math as a pre med and a lot of the maths stuff he was studying for the leaving cert was 1st or 2nd year university stuff in North America.

Hats off to any Irish student who got that score - they really are brilliant. But I really hope they do make the Irish program post degree and have interviews for it. A lot of my Irish class already regrets going into medicine just because they had the points. Also IMHO, 23 is too young to be a doctor. Not for everyone but for most. From what I've seen, I think starting out so young is actually sometimes damaging to a young doctor's career.

 

[Sage880]

50%? The Irish Times said this year it was over 60%. I'm not saying they're taking Irish places though. I know those places were never Irish to begin with, but the fact is that those places could be educating Irish people in a country that is desperately short on doctors.

I might be a little ignorant of the subject, but my understand was UCC increased foreign spots from 25% to 50% last year due to the fact that Irish students don't pay any fees and that we foreign students pay so much. From that, I kind of think that Ireland is shooting itself in the foot since not even 100% of the Irish students stay in Ireland. Rumours are that Intern spots for foreigners are expecting to go up every year. Hopefully this is true because I'm a Canadian and love Ireland and am seriously considering staying here.

 

[Gunny]

590 points (out of 600, right?) is absolutely nuts! I have cousins in medschool over there, so try an keep an interest. Does anyone know what kinda percentile 590 points translates to? How about US GPA?

 

[dr strangelove]

Oxbridge requires the bmat and edinburgh i think requires at least a 30 on the mcat. hope this helps.


Cheers, Saph

Hi Saph,

I disagree with you on Oxford. I didn't have to sit the BMAT when I applied there; they had their own entrance exam which as I mentioned above, was one of the easiest exams I ever sat in my life. I think you're confusing Oxford grad school with the undergraduate entry requirements.

I advised Mike on applying to Edinburgh, but after reading your reply, you're right Saph. Mike, it's probably a waste of time to apply to Edinburgh. I forgot that it was very graduate unfriendly - they prefer school-leavers. Bad call on my part.

 

[aussiedoc]

Hi all,

Just wanted to say my two cents. It appears that this is a problem across many countries, Australia included.

I am an Australian whom is heading to Ireland to recive medical training, and i know of 6 others as well, despite there being a massive shortage of doctors in Australia.

Ironically i also know of 2 irish students who commenced medical studies in Australia this year. Go figure.

Its my observation that universities and colleges world wide are needing the "International Student" who is a full fee paying student to allow these uni's to survive. Think about it, both me and the irish student leave their respective countries to pay 50,000 a year. If we were to remain and study in our own country it would cost a fraction of the price.

I've now determined after writing countless letters to politicans, univeristy deans and medical councils that noone really cares. Im just going to get my degree, learn my surgical training and hope none of those above people become my patients because im sure going to have a "conflict of interest" if i ever see them on my operating table.

 

[dr strangelove]

dr S


How is it the UK goverment is paying for your medical education? Is this something avaliable for everyone? Or just EU ppl?

Hi Mike, it's just EU. Well, not all of it (see below). Under EU law, it's discrimination not to have the same standards for all EU citizens, so all EU students who apply to British universities have to have the same standards applied to them when it comes to admissions and payment of fees.

The exception to this is England, Wales & NI. Due to the fact that they're within a country as opposed to being independent countries, Scottish universities have a loophole to charge these students fees! I don't think they've started to do it yet, but they're going to. You now have to pay tuition fees in England, and the Scottish are afraid that there is going to be a human wave of fee refugees coming to study in Scotland to escape it.

Good luck in 2nd med Dr. S.

Cheers, bulletproof. Go raibh mile maith agat. Good luck to you too.

590 points (out of 600, right?) is absolutely nuts! I have cousins in medschool over there, so try an keep an interest. Does anyone know what kinda percentile 590 points translates to? How about US GPA?

I don't know, but I can tell you that I got the same as bulletproof, which put me in the top 2% in the country. I'd say we're talking less than 0.5% though.

590 points is the extreme example of TCD though. If you're willing to go to NUIG, you can get in on 570 points. Still extremely difficult though.

Its my observation that universities and colleges world wide are needing the "International Student" who is a full fee paying student to allow these uni's to survive. Think about it, both me and the irish student leave their respective countries to pay 50,000 a year. If we were to remain and study in our own country it would cost a fraction of the price.

There's a lot of truth in that - I had no idea that Irish student were travelling as far afield as Australia to study! That's extreme. I thought I was making a sacrifice travelling to Scotland to study! But when I see how some Irish have gone to the ends of the earth and are paying a lot of money to get the education they want, it doesn't seem so bad for me.

Considering the enmity some of my countrymen have for the UK; I'm only posting this because it's an anonymous message board - I think the UK is a truly wonderful country in their generosity when it comes to education. You wouldn't catch me saying that in my local back home (A sort of ooh, ahh, up the 'RA place) - I'd say that they're trying to make up for 700 years of oppression!

 

[dr strangelove]

I actually like the idea of the 5 year programs and from what ive heard they are less stressful and spread out a bit. That would be cool.

Sorry for yet another post, but I only saw this now. Mike, there's a difference between a course being less stressful and being bored out of your mind with the mind-numbing simplicity of it. I urge you to consider a graduate course and not sell yourself short. In many ways I regret not postponing med school for a year, doing an MSc, and then applying for a graduate course. I was just so damn eager to start though.

If you do decide to take the 5 year courses though, I hope you're proactive! Might I suggest rowing? I found its the only sport where the time spent training is sufficient enough to make up for all those hours of doing nothing.

 

[endosmoke]

Sorry for yet another post, but I only saw this now. Mike, there's a difference between a course being less stressful and being bored out of your mind with the mind-numbing simplicity of it. I urge you to consider a graduate course and not sell yourself short. In many ways I regret not postponing med school for a year, doing an MSc, and then applying for a graduate course. I was just so damn eager to start though.

If you do decide to take the 5 year courses though, I hope you're proactive! Might I suggest rowing? I found its the only sport where the time spent training is sufficient enough to make up for all those hours of doing nothing.

well just cause its 5 years doesn't mean its boring or you have so much time. Some people may find 5 yeras still stressful. I personally like it as it gives me 1 extra year to do like 1 more clerkship etc. Also if you really find that you have too much time u can do a MBA program on the side, which I am hihgly considering.

on a second note, and a totally different topic, does anyone know the website or where to get an irish "social insurance number" i heard that I can get an EU passport after having this for 4-5 years and having some work experience for x number of months.... want to clear this rumor up as it would be very very nice to have an EU passport.

Thanks

PS: WHERE ARE WE MEETING FOR OUR GET TOGETHER, LEORL ORGANIZE THIS!!!!

 

[Badkarma25]

hey there,

getting the irish pps number (SIN or SSN number) is pretty easy. do a web search for social welfare offices in your area....i know in dublin it goes by postcode, so if you're living on belfied campus in D4 you have to go to a particular social welfare office in the city center right near the quays. anyway once you find out which office you have ot go to, you need to bring your passport, some sort of letter saying you're enroled in good standing etc (you might NOT need this but i just bring one everywehre because most places like this are jerks and require it), a bill with your address on it, and that' sit. fill out some forms and get the number in less than a week.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Sorry for yet another post, but I only saw this now. Mike, there's a difference between a course being less stressful and being bored out of your mind with the mind-numbing simplicity of it. I urge you to consider a graduate course and not sell yourself short. In many ways I regret not postponing med school for a year, doing an MSc, and then applying for a graduate course. I was just so damn eager to start though.

If you do decide to take the 5 year courses though, I hope you're proactive! Might I suggest rowing? I found its the only sport where the time spent training is sufficient enough to make up for all those hours of doing nothing.

heheh

That amazes me. The people here in the USA and my home country Canada are stressed on a daily basis and cant do anything but med school for 4 years straight. I know a few who ended relationships for it. Truly, im not interested in that sortof thing. Im married (no kiddies) and my wife is also an RN. So she will do a travel assignment in the UK or Ireland where ever we end up. This will provide free housing and living cost money. So i plan to work as an RN as well while going to med school. My backround is all ER, Trauma and ICU and from what I hear, they value the training we get in Canada.

In anycase, a 5 year program where i can continue publishing, research and work plus have time for my wife and to travel would be much better for me than a 4 year balls to the wall "hate my life" program

 

[bulletproof]

Considering the enmity some of my countrymen have for the UK; I'm only posting this because it's an anonymous message board - I think the UK is a truly wonderful country in their generosity when it comes to education. You wouldn't catch me saying that in my local back home (A sort of ooh, ahh, up the 'RA place) - I'd say that they're trying to make up for 700 years of oppression! [/QUOTE]

You orange Bast**d! Go neirigh an bothar leat. "come out ye' black and tans, come out and ....." Funny some of the most militant republicans ( the Irish kind) I have encountered have been in chicago. Some of these guys born and raised in the US get drunk and cry for poor little catholic Ireland. I guess I can appreciate the sentiment but Its kind of funny when you find out many of them were never even in Ireland. But I digress. By the way I think Aussiedoc has it right...they are making too much money off of the internationals. Oh well....I will have that MD in 1 year and 8 months god willing. Good luck to all heading to Europe. Take care.

 

[leorl]

If you do decide to take the 5 year courses though, I hope you're proactive! Might I suggest rowing? I found its the only sport where the time spent training is sufficient enough to make up for all those hours of doing nothing.

LOL Funny you should say that! As I'm a rower and have spent 20+ hours per week for the last few years training. (I wouldn't recommend it for studying though heh). Continuing rowing training at the level I wanted is actually one of the reasons I chose to study here. But anyway, don't think that because the information is spread out over 5 years instead of 4 will give you that much more free time. Yes, there is a little less cramming to be done...but the information still needs to be learned. And there is a crapload of it.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

LOL Funny you should say that! As I'm a rower and have spent 20+ hours per week for the last few years training. (I wouldn't recommend it for studying though heh). Continuing rowing training at the level I wanted is actually one of the reasons I chose to study here. But anyway, don't think that because the information is spread out over 5 years instead of 4 will give you that much more free time. Yes, there is a little less cramming to be done...but the information still needs to be learned. And there is a crapload of it.

Oh yes, i realize the volume of info. However, slamming it into a 4 year program (really only 2 in school) dosent encourage learning so much as it encourages "memorization" for the the test and then prompt ejection

I just enjoy the idea of being able to persue my dream and work/live at the same time

 

[Sage880]

Oh yes, i realize the volume of info. However, slamming it into a 4 year program (really only 2 in school) dosent encourage learning so much as it encourages "memorization" for the the test and then prompt ejection

I just enjoy the idea of being able to persue my dream and work/live at the same time

One of the things I like (liked - don't know how the program is changing now) about the 5 year program is how we had a full year of anatomy and dissection. Did an elective over the summer and I couldn't believe how many minutia anatomy facts kept coming up in cases and questions. As far as me compared to the other north american students, I was behind in H&P skills but quickly caught up, WAY behind in pharm, but way ahead in anatomy. Pharm and anatomy questions were what every doc kept pimping us with the most.

 

[saphenous]

Dr.S,
I was talking about the bmat entance exam for the 5 year programs at oxbridge, guess u were applying for the 4 yr.


Cheers,
Saph

 

[leorl]

One of the things I like (liked - don't know how the program is changing now) about the 5 year program is how we had a full year of anatomy and dissection. Did an elective over the summer and I couldn't believe how many minutia anatomy facts kept coming up in cases and questions. As far as me compared to the other north american students, I was behind in H&P skills but quickly caught up, WAY behind in pharm, but way ahead in anatomy. Pharm and anatomy questions were what every doc kept pimping us with the most.

What year are you? You're just starting clinical years, aren't you? Usually for those going over to do electives are "upper year" students and generally our H&P skills would be "better" than theirs because it's really emphasized in our clinical training. We're usually equal at pharm, but north americans like using trade names, which would differ from the names we use here. What usually catches us at first is getting used to SOAP notes and procedural things

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

One of the things that EU & Canadian med grads seem to be much better at is clinical judgements and skills. This has everything to do with the medico-legal atmosphere in the USA. There is such a reliance on testing and diagnostics here that clinical skills are meaningless. Lawyers dictate the "standard of care", whereas in EU and Canada, physicians are expected to use clinical judgement, not a million dollar workup.

Its and interesting difference