Median first year pay

[bronx43]

You think? Ortho/neuro spine/derm etc all did quite well 15 years ago. Unless we go to a non-fee for service system in the feature, think these specialties will continue to be on top. Hardly think that peds, FP, psych etc will somehow be the top money-makers, particularly as mid-levels gain more autonomy

I'm not necessarily saying the pyramid will invert. It's a bit too late in the night to go off on a tangent about my macroeconomic and financial outlook for the medium and long term, but I honestly don't see the status quo persisting into the mid 2020s. People can put their time, effort, money, hopes, dreams, etc into whatever they want to, but I think there's essentially zero chance the next 25 years will be like the last 25. The infinite growth paradigm that has allowed for what we have now is dying if not already dead.

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[TUGM]

It's okay to have varying interests. Personally, I liked most specialties of medicine. But you should do something you enjoy, as a general principle in life. Even with 300K debt, making 180-250K/year, you can pay off your debts fairly quickly if you're smart about it. People sometimes act like they have the intention of writing a 300K check as soon as they are an attending. Yeah, maybe you'll have to hold off on the bright red Ferrari for a few years.

 

[TUGM]

Or you can buy a used one.

 

[nephro007]

Accurate figures for nephrology!

 

[Rads312]

Accurate figures for nephrology!

and why did you resurrect a 2 year old threaD?

 

[nephro007]

and why did you resurrect a 2 year old threaD?

edit

 

[tco]

Accurate figures for nephrology!

Accurate for Rads too!!!

 

[anonperson]

I know this thread got bumped recently but I will add that the starting salaries listed for OB GYN and Urology are pretty accurate.

I think people also over estimate their value when they are fresh out of residency/fellowship which is the reason for these starting salaries.

 

[Naijaba]

tl;dr - The UC system is useful as a lower-bound on radiology salaries since it's academic and in a highly-desirable location. Starting salaries are < $200,000, but increase to ~$390,000 while still an assistant professor.

Full post:

It's crazy that starting salaries are such a mystery. The only definitive source I've found is from the University of California system: https://ucannualwage.ucop.edu/wage/

Pick a school, let's say UCLA: http://radiology.ucla.edu/our-faculty
I went ahead and wrote a Python script to grab all of the faculty's salaries. Here they are:

Research scientists / Early assistant professors:
$41,580
$44,116
$63,960
$67,315
$101,713
$117,412
$118,963
$144,496
$154,903
$201,789
$229,771
$230,321

Associate professors:
$290,339
$342,093
$353,941
$357,934 [assistant professor]
$360,636
$361,708 [assistant professor]
$361,798 [assistant professor]
$372,237
$379,645 [assistant professor]
$382,737 [assistant professor]
$385,271 [assistant professor]
$390,793
$390,905 [assistant professor]
$391,268 [assistant professor]
$391,511 [assistant professor]

Professors:
$393,706
$393,755 [assistant professor]
$394,061
$400,899
$403,650 [assistant professor]
$403,684 [associate professor]
$407,222 [assistant professor]
$408,892
$409,850 [associate professor]
$414,429
$416,236 [assistant professor]
$418,433
$424,519
$425,012
$427,236
$431,867
$431,871
$434,691
$436,027
$436,350 [associate professor]
$444,604 [assistant professor]
$459,002 [department vice chair]
$465,543 [section chief]
$468,828 [department vice chair]
$469,826 [section chief]
$469,928 [vice chair]
$480,311 [assistant professor]
$487,228 [associate medical director]
$495,293
$502,091 [executive vice chair]
$508,807 [section chief]
$519,013 [vice chair]
$701,298 [chair]

 

[IRorBustguy]

tl;dr - The UC system is useful as a lower-bound on radiology salaries since it's academic and in a highly-desirable location. Starting salaries are < $200,000, but increase to ~$390,000 while still an assistant professor.

Full post:

It's crazy that starting salaries are such a mystery. The only definitive source I've found is from the University of California system: https://ucannualwage.ucop.edu/wage/

Pick a school, let's say UCLA: http://radiology.ucla.edu/our-faculty
I went ahead and wrote a Python script to grab all of the faculty's salaries. Here they are:

Research scientists / Early assistant professors:
$41,580
$44,116
$63,960
$67,315
$101,713
$117,412
$118,963
$144,496
$154,903
$201,789
$229,771
$230,321

Associate professors:
$290,339
$342,093
$353,941
$357,934 [assistant professor]
$360,636
$361,708 [assistant professor]
$361,798 [assistant professor]
$372,237
$379,645 [assistant professor]
$382,737 [assistant professor]
$385,271 [assistant professor]
$390,793
$390,905 [assistant professor]
$391,268 [assistant professor]
$391,511 [assistant professor]

Professors:
$393,706
$393,755 [assistant professor]
$394,061
$400,899
$403,650 [assistant professor]
$403,684 [associate professor]
$407,222 [assistant professor]
$408,892
$409,850 [associate professor]
$414,429
$416,236 [assistant professor]
$418,433
$424,519
$425,012
$427,236
$431,867
$431,871
$434,691
$436,027
$436,350 [associate professor]
$444,604 [assistant professor]
$459,002 [department vice chair]
$465,543 [section chief]
$468,828 [department vice chair]
$469,826 [section chief]
$469,928 [vice chair]
$480,311 [assistant professor]
$487,228 [associate medical director]
$495,293
$502,091 [executive vice chair]
$508,807 [section chief]
$519,013 [vice chair]
$701,298 [chair]

Did you add "other pay" ? Their base pay is low but the other pay is significant.

 

[PersonOfInterest]

Did you add "other pay" ? Their base pay is low but the other pay is significant.

This appears to be the gross pay (regular pay + other pay).
*Nice python skillz Naijaba

 

[RadsFTW123]

tl;dr - The UC system is useful as a lower-bound on radiology salaries since it's academic and in a highly-desirable location. Starting salaries are < $200,000, but increase to ~$390,000 while still an assistant professor.

Full post:

It's crazy that starting salaries are such a mystery. The only definitive source I've found is from the University of California system: https://ucannualwage.ucop.edu/wage/

Pick a school, let's say UCLA: http://radiology.ucla.edu/our-faculty
I went ahead and wrote a Python script to grab all of the faculty's salaries. Here they are:

Research scientists / Early assistant professors:
$41,580
$44,116
$63,960
$67,315
$101,713
$117,412
$118,963
$144,496
$154,903
$201,789
$229,771
$230,321

Associate professors:
$290,339
$342,093
$353,941
$357,934 [assistant professor]
$360,636
$361,708 [assistant professor]
$361,798 [assistant professor]
$372,237
$379,645 [assistant professor]
$382,737 [assistant professor]
$385,271 [assistant professor]
$390,793
$390,905 [assistant professor]
$391,268 [assistant professor]
$391,511 [assistant professor]

Professors:
$393,706
$393,755 [assistant professor]
$394,061
$400,899
$403,650 [assistant professor]
$403,684 [associate professor]
$407,222 [assistant professor]
$408,892
$409,850 [associate professor]
$414,429
$416,236 [assistant professor]
$418,433
$424,519
$425,012
$427,236
$431,867
$431,871
$434,691
$436,027
$436,350 [associate professor]
$444,604 [assistant professor]
$459,002 [department vice chair]
$465,543 [section chief]
$468,828 [department vice chair]
$469,826 [section chief]
$469,928 [vice chair]
$480,311 [assistant professor]
$487,228 [associate medical director]
$495,293
$502,091 [executive vice chair]
$508,807 [section chief]
$519,013 [vice chair]
$701,298 [chair]

As usual, Naijabba is wrong (but this time, I wish he was right!). In a perfect market, yes, UCLA would represent the "floor" of physician salaries. However, California is known for bloated, above-market pay for public employees, and its physicians are no exception. Many recent threads on AuntMinnie have discussed UCLA, and mention that people at UCLA often make MUCH more than many PP people in LA (or Southern Cal). UCLA just passes the buck to the taxpayer, and they can just pay as much as they can get authorized for. For example, I live in a not that saturated, much more physician-friendly state that California, and the academic people here don't even do close to as well as UCLA, and many of the big PP groups pay worse than UCLA.

 

[Naijaba]

As usual, Naijabba is wrong (but this time, I wish he was right!). In a perfect market, yes, UCLA would represent the "floor" of physician salaries. However, California is known for bloated, above-market pay for public employees, and its physicians are no exception. Many recent threads on AuntMinnie have discussed UCLA, and mention that people at UCLA often make MUCH more than many PP people in LA (or Southern Cal). UCLA just passes the buck to the taxpayer, and they can just pay as much as they can get authorized for. For example, I live in a not that saturated, much more physician-friendly state that California, and the academic people here don't even do close to as well as UCLA, and many of the big PP groups pay worse than UCLA.

I'm not sure what you mean by usually wrong . The results are similar for UCI and UCSD, and I image they are the same for the other UCs. I can't speak to your experience or AuntMinnie, but I imagine a sub $200K starting salary is correct and an expected revenue of $350,000 mid-career is also correct.

 

[deleted564680]

I'm not sure what you mean by usually wrong . The results are similar for UCI and UCSD, and I image they are the same for the other UCs. I can't speak to your experience or AuntMinnie, but I imagine a sub $200K starting salary is correct and an expected revenue of $350,000K mid-career is also correct.

Sounds terrible, especially for the cost of living.

 

[Rads312]

Sounds terrible, especially for the cost of living.

Yeah, it is 1 but that's California. Being a specialist is being middle class there.

That being said - a mentor once told me, out of the following three, you have to choose two:

1) location
2) work hours
3) salary

- you can almost never have all 3. If you can, you're lucky.

 

[deleted564680]

I'll take 2 and 3 and fly to 1 on my 12 weeks of vacation.

 

[medgator]

Yeah, it is 1 but that's California. Being a specialist is being middle class there.

That being said - a mentor once told me, out of the following three, you have to choose two:

1) location
2) work hours
3) salary

- you can almost never have all 3. If you can, you're lucky.

The people who don't want to practice in cali or the northeast can actually achieve all three

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

I'll take 2 and 3 and fly to 1 on my 12 weeks of vacation.

Kind of agree. If you're working, you're in a building anyway. Reading room looks the same in San Diego as it does in Cheyenne.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Getting paid half the salary while living in an area where costs of living is twice the national average is unjustifiable.

 

[scootad.]

Yet people do it all the time. Moms want to raise their kids close to grandma and grandpa. And often that's in the big metro areas.

 

[deleted564680]

Yet people do it all the time. Moms want to raise their kids close to grandma and grandpa. And often that's in the big metro areas.

This is the reason for sure.

 

[Rads312]

It's not for everyone , but I think the ideal spots are mid sized cities in a good vicinity to large ones - you get the reasonable cost of living and a decent amount of culture , and can drive to the bigger city on a weekend.

In the Midwest, Milwaukee, indianapolis, Columbus..all decent places to live within a few hours of Chicago.

Heck, if you're crazy about California , there are good paying gigs in Sacramento and modesto.

 

[Rads312]

You guys wouldn't believe how some of my attendings lived in San Francisco -

Some of them were making a solid 450-500k, but that money went nowhere. Living in a 1.5 million dollar townhouse and sending the kids to private school, they were totally broke...but were willing to do it to live in the Bay Area. No thanks.

 

[deleted564680]

You guys wouldn't believe how some of my attendings lived in San Francisco -

Some of them were making a solid 450-500k, but that money went nowhere. Living in a 1.5 million dollar townhouse and sending the kids to private school, they were totally broke...but were willing to do it to live in the Bay Area. No thanks.

Gross.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Gross.

Sad that vanity and hedonistic materialism/status will drive pretty smart people into poor financial decisions.

 

[OrangeJuice1111]

Sad that vanity and hedonistic materialism/status will drive pretty smart people into poor financial decisions.

I don't think living in the city of your choosing for whatever personal reasons you have is vain or a product of hedonistic materialism.

 

[futureradres12345]

I don't get why it bothers some people so much that a lot of folks like living in California. It is a totally rational decision for people who don't place much value on material things. If you do not care about a big house or a fancy car, then SF, LA, and SD are all incredible places to live. You get to live in a beautiful city, often with great weather year-round, surrounded by the most brilliant and talented people from all over the world. There is a reason that the best and brightest from many cities and towns across the country flock to California. It's fine to say it doesn't suit your preferences, but it seems strange to argue that these people are all delusional or stupid.

 

[deleted564680]

I don't get why it bothers some people so much that a lot of folks like living in California. It is a totally rational decision for people who don't place much value on material things. If you do not care about a big house or a fancy car, then SF, LA, and SD are all incredible places to live. You get to live in a beautiful city, often with great weather year-round, surrounded by the most brilliant and talented people from all over the world. There is a reason that the best and brightest from many cities and towns across the country flock to California. It's fine to say it doesn't suit your preferences, but it seems strange to argue that these people are all delusional or stupid.

I think a lot of it is projection of political beliefs and the polarization of the beliefs held in California vs. other places in the US.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

I don't get why it bothers some people so much that a lot of folks like living in California. It is a totally rational decision for people who don't place much value on material things. If you do not care about a big house or a fancy car, then SF, LA, and SD are all incredible places to live. You get to live in a beautiful city, often with great weather year-round, surrounded by the most brilliant and talented people from all over the world. There is a reason that the best and brightest from many cities and towns across the country flock to California. It's fine to say it doesn't suit your preferences, but it seems strange to argue that these people are all delusional or stupid.

I didn't mean to imply anyone was stupid or delusional.

Regarding people flocking to Cali.: definitely happens, but no more than the flocking back to other cities after one has had his/her fill of all the glory the west coast has to offer.

 

[meister]

Based on the job market I would say California draws in quite a bit more than it drives away.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Based on the job market I would say California draws in quite a bit more than it drives away.

Indeed, as the world's 7th largest economy, there is little doubt it will draw more to its market than the rest of the states.

 

[deleted564680]

Based on the job market I would say California draws in quite a bit more than it drives away.

Actually no. California had a net migration out of the state from 2005 to 2015.

 

[meister]

Actually no. California had a net migration out of the state from 2005 to 2015.

Source? Wikipedia shows continual population increases.

 

[River Rat]

There's no right answer here, don't understand all the hate on people who value the location where they live, as if they're out of their minds? I get that quality of life matters a lot to some people (and it is okay if it does!), and that the dollar does not go nearly as far (understatement of the century) in cities like SF, LA or NYC vs other parts of America, but it's a personal preference to feel compelled to live in those cities and trust me, people know what they are giving up when they live there. Yet they do it anyways. As someone who has lived all over in all sorts of different places (rural to mega-metropolitan, foreign and domestic,) I know my personal preferences, what I value, and what I'd be sacrificing to make things work to be there. Regardless, since personal desires and the reasons that make people happy are so unique, I don't think it's reasonable to think that people whose values are different from your own have some fundamental character flaw.

 

[deleted564680]

Source? Wikipedia shows continual population increases.

Population growth is different than migration.

 

[meister]

Why don't you make your point? Or would you rather avoid trying to argue that California drives away more physicians than it attracts?

 

[qwerty89]

Actually no. California had a net migration out of the state from 2005 to 2015.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2013/03/03/the_reverse-joads_of_california_303209.html

"Over the past two decades, a net 3.4 million people have moved out of California for other states. But contrary to conservative lore, there has been no millionaires' march to Texas or other states with no income tax. In fact, since 2005 California has experienced a net in-migration of households earning more than $200,000, according to the U.S. Census's American Community Survey.

As it happens, most of California's outward-bound migrants are low- to middle-income, with relatively little education: those typically employed in agriculture, construction, manufacturing, hospitality and to some extent natural-resource extraction. Their median household income is about $40,000"”two-thirds of the statewide median"”and about 95% earn less than $80,000."

Makes sense. If you are low income you will not live in the cushy gated communities of palo alto or la jolla. You will live in the ghetto. On the other hand if they move to Houston, Milwaukee, etc they can have a decent life with a good home with good public schools. If you are high income after a certain point the intangibles start to matter more. Sure a big house is nice but it doesn't really matter. You can still have a great life in orange county or LA or SD with the beautiful weather and, more importantly, the culture.

I can't wait to finish residency and hopefully go back for fellowship and get a job. I would be ecstatic if I could get a Kaiser job in a a good socal location. I know by midwestern standards thats a **** job but I'll take it with my beaches, weather, and my people. You know, a place with schools where the kids don't get made fun of for being asian and different.

 

[qwerty89]

Also public sector jobs in California are amazing. You can make $275K a year as a psychiatrist for 40 hr/week. No weekends, No nights, no call. Heck many rads private practices don't even give you that option. Not to mention the defined benefit pension plan. It used to be 3% a year for every year worked and can retire at 60 (now 2% and 62). That meant you could finish psych residency at age 30 work 33 years and get 99% of your final salary for life without doing ****. Not to mention that the allotted vacation, which sucks initially, builds up and carries over from year to year. People literally have months and months of accumulated vacation.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2013/03/03/the_reverse-joads_of_california_303209.html

"Over the past two decades, a net 3.4 million people have moved out of California for other states. But contrary to conservative lore, there has been no millionaires' march to Texas or other states with no income tax. In fact, since 2005 California has experienced a net in-migration of households earning more than $200,000, according to the U.S. Census's American Community Survey.

As it happens, most of California's outward-bound migrants are low- to middle-income, with relatively little education: those typically employed in agriculture, construction, manufacturing, hospitality and to some extent natural-resource extraction. Their median household income is about $40,000"”two-thirds of the statewide median"”and about 95% earn less than $80,000."

Makes sense. If you are low income you will not live in the cushy gated communities of palo alto or la jolla. You will live in the ghetto. On the other hand if they move to Houston, Milwaukee, etc they can have a decent life with a good home with good public schools. If you are high income after a certain point the intangibles start to matter more. Sure a big house is nice but it doesn't really matter. You can still have a great life in orange county or LA or SD with the beautiful weather and, more importantly, the culture.

I can't wait to finish residency and hopefully go back for fellowship and get a job. I would be ecstatic if I could get a Kaiser job in a a good socal location. I know by midwestern standards thats a **** job but I'll take it with my beaches, weather, and my people. You know, a place with schools where the kids don't get made fun of for being asian and different.

Define "ghetto," as I'd like to know if I currently live in one.

 

[qwerty89]

Define "ghetto," as I'd like to know if I currently live in one.

Inland Empire (i.e. Riverside/San Bernadino), Bakersfield, Modesto, Fresno, Barstow. If you live there and can't afford someplace better in CA then you are probably better off moving to a different state with a cheaper COL.

 

[deleted564680]

Migration: http://www.sacbee.com/site-services/databases/article32679753.html

I wasn't talking about doctors or 200k+ earners. Just in general.

 

[anonperson]

Sad that vanity and hedonistic materialism/status will drive pretty smart people into poor financial decisions.

If you think that materialism is driving that decision, I can guarantee thats not a major reason and really didn't make sense.

Weather is a huge factor. Having done residency and medical school in the midwest/rural east coast, you couldn't pay me enough to deal with blizzards, scraping ice off my windshield. Not having to deal with freezing weather is a blessing.

As a minority,I know full well that there are certain parts of this country where it would be tough to raise a family and be fully welcomed by the community. Even though I was born and raised here. That issue just doesnt pop up in Southern California/Northern California for example. I'm not saving there's perfect racial harmony or anything but it is generally a more welcoming area.

Don't underestimate family ties. I turned down some pretty good job offers to be in a certain region for the above reasons and to be within 30 minutes to my parents and siblings.

My starting salary is about $140,000 less than one of my counterparts in the same specialty who is going to a more rural area.

At the end of the day, the dollars are not worth it if I can't be happy with the location and that is a huge factor. Money comes and goes and I'll be relatively comfortable. I won't be living like a baller but if I wanted to do that, I should have done dermpath or spine.

It is interesting to see the varying factors people choose when picking a job.

 

[jorts42]

Us Asians aren't exactly welcomed in fly over country where all those high salaries are

 

[bashwell]

Us Asians aren't exactly welcomed in fly over country where all those high salaries are

Hmmm which parts of "fly over country" (not the nicest way to put it!) are we talking about? I've had Asian friends come with me to a couple of states in the Midwest, for example, but they've told me they've felt welcome, and not racially discriminated against. I recommend you come and check out the Midwest!

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Inland Empire (i.e. Riverside/San Bernadino), Bakersfield, Modesto, Fresno, Barstow. If you live there and can't afford someplace better in CA then you are probably better off moving to a different state with a cheaper COL.

Us Asians aren't exactly welcomed in fly over country where all those high salaries are

I'm having some trouble telling if you are serious or not, but this might be the first time I've heard someone say something to that effect.

Do Asians really feel unwelcome in the midwest?

 

[Naijaba]

Inland Empire (i.e. Riverside/San Bernadino), Bakersfield, Modesto, Fresno, Barstow. If you live there and can't afford someplace better in CA then you are probably better off moving to a different state with a cheaper COL.

I grew up in the IE (in San Bernardino no less) and turned out alright, but I know what you mean. San Bernardino was the 2nd poorest county in the US (next to Detroit). The LA Times did a gritty piece on San Bernardino:

http://graphics.latimes.com/san-bernardino/

Essentially, San Bernardino's history was plagued by two major closures: Kaiser Steel shutdown and went to China (incidentally, Kaiser Permanente was created for the steel mill workers) and Norton Air Force Base closed down. These were two consecutive closures that gutted the income of the area.

At one point you could find an abandoned San Bernardino house on Zillow for $25K.

 

[jorts42]

Not specific to the midwest but rural areas of the country in general. Im sorry if i offended anyone but i stand by what i said. Maybe "fly over" isn't the best term. i used to live in one of these areas and had multiple racial slurs thrown in my direction. it doesnt mean most people arent welcoming but i was referring to raising children. children have no filter and will easily ridicule us

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Not specific to the midwest but rural areas of the country in general. Im sorry if i offended anyone but i stand by what i said. Maybe "fly over" isn't the best term. i used to live in one of these areas and had multiple racial slurs thrown in my direction. it doesnt mean most people arent welcoming but i was referring to raising children. children have no filter and will easily ridicule us

Well I'm sorry that happened to you. That's not cool no matter where you live.

 

[jorts42]

I shouldn't have refered to rural areas as fly over. Maybe things have changed since I lived there.

Anyways is it true that the physician shortage is so substantial that the first year attending pay and vacation is that much higher than the saturated "desirable" areas?

 

[bashwell]

Not specific to the midwest but rural areas of the country in general. Im sorry if i offended anyone but i stand by what i said. Maybe "fly over" isn't the best term. i used to live in one of these areas and had multiple racial slurs thrown in my direction. it doesnt mean most people arent welcoming but i was referring to raising children. children have no filter and will easily ridicule us

To be honest, kids can be mean anywhere. If it's not race, they'll pick on you for all sorts of other things like your weight, clothes, name, hair, physical awkwardness, etc. I've been picked on including racial slurs for being Irish for example.