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Whatever you do, make sure you chase the money. Happiness will follow.
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Whatever you do, make sure you chase the money. Happiness will follow.
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I found this on SDN and wanted to post it on this thread as well:
The post below is from a recent graduate from Med School.
Monday, March 23, 2015
NOT A DOCTOR, JUST AN M.D.
In what is presented as a success, the 2015 Match, where medical students become doctors and find out if they will be accepted for residency, is over. It’s over and I am one of the 1,093 U.S. students that was rejected by every place that I interviewed. This year I packed up my family and we traveled across the U.S. in an annual cross-country pilgrimage to interview at residency programs. We couldn’t afford to fly. My husband, my infant son and I drove in a 15 year old station wagon, breaking our change jars to sleep in roach motels so that I would have a chance to give them a better life. It was an exhausting journey followed by an anxious month-long wait to find out where we would be living for the next three years. Instead of a better life, the National Resident Matching Program, Oregon Health and Sciences University and the American Medical Association have left us on the curb with over $400,000 dollars in debt and no way to pay it back. A doctor without a residency is unable to practice anywhere and although I hold the title, this is the end of the line for me. I labored and sacrificed ten years for a change in my life and I feel like a part of me has died.
Link:
http://notadoctorjustamd.blogspot.c...howComment=1427172072515#c3535627127933567282
Not to hijack the thread, but this strongly suggests that the med students will keep coming to anesthesia residency no matter how bad the job market for docs gets. The bad job market of the 90s gave way to the good job market of the 2000's because the med students stayed away from anesthesia because they had other residency options.
I used to work for a big famous computer company. I came in with a new crop of grads. I later heard a lot of older guys (50+ years old) got laid off around the same time. I hope this was just a coincidence.He'll do great ... IF he can stay employed continuously until retirement.
CS is a young person's career.
Staying current is a huge issue, far more so than medicine. Recessions hit that industry very hard. Age discrimination can be lethal if you need to make a late career move or are past 50 when coming out of a recession.
It wasn't. New grads are cheaper. It's exactly what my academic place does: keeps decreasing your salary until you get fed up and leave, then hire some recent grad who is happy with ANY attending-level salary, ideally one that needs a green card, needs to be in the area, or has other limitations.I used to work for a big famous computer company. I came in with a new crop of grads. I later heard a lot of older guys (50+ years old) got laid off around the same time. I hope this was just a coincidence.
It wasn't. New grads are cheaper. It's exactly what my academic place does: keeps decreasing your salary until you get fed up and leave, then hire some recent grad who is happy with ANY attending-level salary, ideally one that needs a green card, needs to be in the area, or has other limitations.
One of my former teachers left a couple years ago. He is a great anesthesiologist (the kind that can do anything except for the cardiac room, from sick peds and high-risk OB to regional and liver transplant) and very well-liked, and still he described how difficult it was to find a good job mid-career. He was actually passed on for a job because they chose one of our recent grads instead.
http://thescurlockscene.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-match-soap-reality-of-being-img.html
Josh graduated from SGU but did not match; he scrambled and was lucky to find a preliminary spot. Josh is now a Categorical Surgical Resident. Things are getting very, very tough for IMGs:
- There were approximately 900 positions in the SOAP. There were over 1100 AMG's unmatched and over 8000 IMG's unmatched trying to obtain these spots.
- Josh got ZERO phone calls or emails the entire week. NOT. EVEN. ONE.
- It is our belief that international graduates, regardless of citizenship were filtered out from the start, that Josh's application was not even looked at all week.
QED: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/u...t-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html?_r=0I used to work for a big famous computer company. I came in with a new crop of grads. I later heard a lot of older guys (50+ years old) got laid off around the same time. I hope this was just a coincidence.
This is what we too are doing, whenever we teach midlevels.While families rode the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train and searched for Nemo on clamobiles in the theme parks, these workers monitored computers in industrial buildings nearby, making sure millions of Walt Disney World ticket sales, store purchases and hotel reservations went through without a hitch. Some were performing so well that they thought they had been called in for bonuses.
Instead, about 250 Disney employees were told in late October that they would be laid off. Many of their jobs were transferred to immigrants on temporary visas for highly skilled technical workers, who were brought in by an outsourcing firm based in India. Over the next three months, some Disney employees were required to train their replacements to do the jobs they had lost.
Ouch, 50% chance of matching into anything! 2-3% chance of gen surgery!http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/04/residency-chances-offshore-medical-school-graduates.html
The residency chances of offshore medical school graduates
I’m graduating in May and will have 450k debt burden including undergrad (85k). A lot of that is accumulated interest but nonetheless, 450k is what I’ll start paying down when July 1 hits. Going into anesthesia so from the current market I anticipate earning in the 350-400k range. In my opinion, I’m still glad I went to medical school because I really enjoy it. But that may change once I realize what it means to actually pay down 450k in loans.I wanted to bump this thread and ask whether most of you think that a $400,000 med school education is still worth the price of admission to becoming a primary care physician or psychiatrist.
I'm curious as to whether the ever increasing cost of a med school education
Will at some point become a deterrent.
I'm seeing some out of state schools charge closed to $65,000 for tuition plus other costs combined with cost of living. The total is close to $100k per year.
If a student gets accepted and borrows $400k what will he/she owe after med school and residency since interest accumulated day 1.
Honestly, I do not think med school is worth $400k unless your income post residency exceeds $400k per year. That level of income is quickly dwindling to a few highly competitive specialties.
I think the average student has no clue what it means to borrow that much money or how he/she will pay it back. When one is pursuing a dream (more like a fantasy for 50 percent of the class) economics goes out the window.
I think my entire med school education (allopathic) cost around $100k (all in). I lived pretty decently as well and had money to go on interviews and take vacations to Europe.
These days only the URM, military and ex military using the Gi bill are getting a good deal. The average ORM is screwed unless he/she gets into NYU.
The story of an orthodontist making 6 figures with $1 million in student-loan debt shows why doctors and lawyers are no longer the richest people you know
Two observations: 1. With AMGs not being able to obtain a spot in residency, why are ANY IMGs matching? It should follow that the AMGs would automatically be given slots over all IMGs since the system of American medicine is a continuum from med school to residency, and without residency many states do not allow physicians to practice medicine. IMGs are not part of the American medical training system until they reach residency or do some other pathway.
Two observations: 1. With AMGs not being able to obtain a spot in residency, why are ANY IMGs matching? It should follow that the AMGs would automatically be given slots over all IMGs since the system of American medicine is a continuum from med school to residency, and without residency many states do not allow physicians to practice medicine. IMGs are not part of the American medical training system until they reach residency or do some other pathway.
2. There is a significant amount of unscrupulous and illegal financial behavior in medicine with doctors looking for kickbacks, playing games with billing codes, becoming a pill mill, billing intentionally out of network for some services but not all with an insurer, and self referring to their labs/imaging units/PT/etc. Is it possible the $180k/year income doctor with a $350k medical school debt plus mortgage and other living expenses is being driven towards these behaviors because of the medical school expense?
Same question can be asked why international students are granted admission in to public undergrads (or even private). Isn't undergrad a 'continuum' from high school? Or why any non-US citizen is given a job in the USA (pick your country). Isn't this a 'continuum' from school training as well? The answer is residency/employers are looking for 'the best'. How someone defines 'the best' is more complex.
Residency programs are funded at least in part, by the federal government. One would think the federal government that is partially funding medical education of medical students and residents would require preferential support of AMGs to the exclusion of IMGs until all residency slots are filled by AMGs. If there are any slots left over, then give them to the IMGs..... Just my opinion....
Residency programs are funded at least in part, by the federal government. One would think the federal government that is partially funding medical education of medical students and residents would require preferential support of AMGs to the exclusion of IMGs until all residency slots are filled by AMGs. If there are any slots left over, then give them to the IMGs..... Just my opinion....
Are there a lot of AMGs going unmatched? Are there programs that are preferentially selecting IMGs over AMGs? My understanding was that AMGs are given much higher regard when it comes to the match unless there was a particularly outstanding IMG or a particularly poor AMG candidate. I could be wrong because I’ve never really been interested enough to look at the data.
Just want to give an updated news to all the oldies out there that Psych has skyrocketed in competitiveness and applicant numbers in the past 2 years. Words on the street are that it's not hard to operate an office taking only cash and make about 400-450K a year while working only about 50 hrs a week. These rumors have been confirmed by multiple colleagues who are rotating with Psych residents right now. I'm not going into Psych, but the hatred for that field is unjustified at this moment.
Top 10 Specialties – By Demand and By Income
Two factors which many med students take into account when choosing a specialty are the demand which exists for that particular specialty and the associated compensation, which varies widely from one specialty to another. According to Becker’s Hospital Review, the top in-demand specialty areas (and their associated incomes) are as follows:
1. Family Physician ($198,000)
2. Internal Medicine Physician ($207,000)
3. Psychiatrist ($226,000)
4. Hospitalist ($232,000)
5. Nurse Practitioner ($107,000)
6. Obstetrician-Gynecologist ($276,000)
7. Orthopedic surgeon ($497,000)
8. Emergency room physician ($345,000)
9. Pediatrician ($195,000)
10. General surgeon ($339,000)
Popular Specialty Areas – and What Med Students Should Know About Them