Ophtho is one of my top choices going into med school. What would you say is the most important thing for obtaining an ophtho residency? It seems like some schools are very into recruiting from top med schools. And other people seemed to have problems matching with very high board scores. As I choose a medical school, should I consider reputation heavily or should I just worry about my board score more. (as of now I'm looking at enrolling at Case Western, but I'm still thinking about Mt Sinai or Ohio State).
med school rep vs. board scores. whats more important?
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Hi exmike,
Welcome to the ophthalmology forums!
I think reputation of the medical school matters most if you graduate from a top 10 program. Otherwise, it won't matter much unless you end up at a bottom tier program.
The board scores are most important for the selection of interviews; however, the interviews become the deciding factor during the ranking meeting.
Good luck!
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I would also add that the strength of the ophtho department at your med school matters as well. Ideally, you'd want to go to a top tier med school with a top notch ophtho department (i.e. Hopkins, Harvard, Duke, Wash U, Penn, UCLA, UCSF, Michigan, Emory, etc).
But if you're looking at more mid-tier med schools, I think having a strong ophtho dept can help you application. You'll get letters faculty who are better known in the field, you'll be able to get advice from residents who successfully placed at a top program, etc.
There are a number of middle tier med schools with world class ophtho programs -- Bascom Palmer (U Miami), U Iowa, Wills (Thomas Jefferson), Doheny (USC), etc.
I'll bet that if you look at the ophtho residency placement for students coming out of these med schools, it is superior to students from comparable quality med schools with weaker ophtho depts.
But if you're looking at more mid-tier med schools, I think having a strong ophtho dept can help you application. You'll get letters faculty who are better known in the field, you'll be able to get advice from residents who successfully placed at a top program, etc.
There are a number of middle tier med schools with world class ophtho programs -- Bascom Palmer (U Miami), U Iowa, Wills (Thomas Jefferson), Doheny (USC), etc.
I'll bet that if you look at the ophtho residency placement for students coming out of these med schools, it is superior to students from comparable quality med schools with weaker ophtho depts.
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Your responses make me smile Icewoman.
coming from a mediocre to bottom tier medical school, i think that the name/rank/reputation of your medical school is very important for getting interviews. they'd much rather take a risk on somebody from hopkins or harvard than some no-name place. i believe that i could have gotten better interviews if i went to a better medical school with all other things being equal.
however, once at the interview, i think the reputation becomes less important and then things like board scores, letters, etc. become the focus.
just my op.
however, once at the interview, i think the reputation becomes less important and then things like board scores, letters, etc. become the focus.
just my op.
Thanks for the responses, Yes, i know cleveland isnt the greatest city on earth. It seems the consensus is that at the level of schools I am looking at currently (below top 20), it really wont make much of a difference where I go, and I should just go where I feel most comfortable or has a good ophto program?
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Honestly, I am of the opinion that med school rep matters only when other things are equal. Why do I think so? Because I am from one of those top 10 med schools (and now doing research at a top 10 ophtho place), yet still didn't match cause of my board scores. I think boards are most important, cause I am of the opinion that 1) they use them for screening purposes, and 2) if you have bad scores they STILL look at them after you have interviewed and they are going over apps for the rank lists. Bottom line I'm a ******* for not realizing how important the boards were and also not realizing that standardized tests weren't my forte, and now I can't undo that... All this stuff I'm going through just cause of one (ok, two) tests
Oh, and I interviewed just fine, I have gotten positive feedback on that from a couple PDs after the match results came out. One of them said I couldn't have done any better at the interview (yet I didn't match...). This is a case-in-counterpoint to the theory that once at the interview, the rest of your stuff is unimportant. Take it as you will...
Oh, and I interviewed just fine, I have gotten positive feedback on that from a couple PDs after the match results came out. One of them said I couldn't have done any better at the interview (yet I didn't match...). This is a case-in-counterpoint to the theory that once at the interview, the rest of your stuff is unimportant. Take it as you will...
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Rice,
I'm sorry you didn't match.
[EDITED] - (Sorry Rice, I didn't realize you already discussed your stats...)
At Iowa, I've been told that board scores aren't posted on the applications during the ranking meeting; thus, ranking is greatly dependent on your interview and what's in your application minus the board scores. The board scores are used for the initial screening and selection of interviews.
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I want to emphasize one more thing. If you go to a top 10 school, don't do well on the boards, and do not have outstanding credentials & LORs, then you may not match.
I've heard about several people from top 10 medical schools that did not match this year.
I've heard about several people from top 10 medical schools that did not match this year.
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I agree completely with Andrew... Although going to a top med school is helpful, it is only one of many factors considered by the residency selection committees and is probably one of the less important factors.
I know 2 people from a top 5 med school that failed to match in ophtho in the same year even though both had good credentials and had done ophtho research. On the other hand, there are many individuals this year from middle or lower tier med schools that matched at elite programs (look at the match lists for Wilmer, Bascom Palmer, etc)
The bottom line is that you should focus on your own record (grades, boards, research, publications, ophtho rotation, letters, interviews, etc) and not worry so much about where you or other candidates went to med school.
I know 2 people from a top 5 med school that failed to match in ophtho in the same year even though both had good credentials and had done ophtho research. On the other hand, there are many individuals this year from middle or lower tier med schools that matched at elite programs (look at the match lists for Wilmer, Bascom Palmer, etc)
The bottom line is that you should focus on your own record (grades, boards, research, publications, ophtho rotation, letters, interviews, etc) and not worry so much about where you or other candidates went to med school.
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Glad you asked exmike, I was wondering the same thing. Optho is also one of my top choices. I was looking at the match list for Case and my state school and 2 matched at Optho at Case while 4 matched at Stony Brook.
Case's Optho matched at: GWU, University Hospitals
Stony Brook: New York Eye and Ear Infirmary, Mount Sinai, UChicago - IL, and Drexel.
Something to think about, especially when it's Case's 55k vs my state school's high 20ish K. Hmmmmm.
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Reputation is important if you want to INTERVIEW at the top 10 programs. I am from a young medical school without a reputation, and was turned down for several interviews I would have liked.
Your class rank and board scores are important if you want to actually MATCH into ophtho.
For instance, my brother went to a top tier med school, graduated in the middle of his class with average board scores and could not match into Urology (which isn't exactly the same as ophtho, but a decent comparison).
I went to an average med school, and will graduate at the top of my class, with board scores >250 and a couple of ophtho research projects under my belt - and I matched at my first choice.
So----- the key is ------ don't suck while you're in med school, and you will match (maybe even at your first choice program).
Stark
Your class rank and board scores are important if you want to actually MATCH into ophtho.
For instance, my brother went to a top tier med school, graduated in the middle of his class with average board scores and could not match into Urology (which isn't exactly the same as ophtho, but a decent comparison).
I went to an average med school, and will graduate at the top of my class, with board scores >250 and a couple of ophtho research projects under my belt - and I matched at my first choice.
So----- the key is ------ don't suck while you're in med school, and you will match (maybe even at your first choice program).
Stark
School probably helps to some degree.
Harvard's ophtho matches in 2003 were at :
wilmer, ucsf, emory, bascom, USC , and MEEI.
Perhaps they were all absolute superstars in terms of grades and scores, but who knows?
Not sure about this year, but i suspect it wasn't too different.
Harvard's ophtho matches in 2003 were at :
wilmer, ucsf, emory, bascom, USC , and MEEI.
Perhaps they were all absolute superstars in terms of grades and scores, but who knows?
Not sure about this year, but i suspect it wasn't too different.
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However, Johns Hopkins match was the following:
Wilmer x 2, Wash U x 2, Wayne State, UNMATCHED
J
JR
In my personal experience with the interview trail your school plays a huge difference. I don't imagine that 2 Harvard's who matched at UCLA this year and 3 who matched at Doheny were much more spectacular than the rest of us ( no disrespect intended; I met most of these guys and they are good people ).
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I couldn't agree more Icewoman. My med school was filled with geniuses and cutthroats, which made it very hard for a midwestern boy like me to keep up. Obviously, it is much more difficult to get honors and AOA at a top-10 place compared to a state U. (Edit: ok it was this way my my school; Given that not all places are tough to get good grades). I am actually sad that I did not go to a state school (I got accepted to U Cincinnati and Ohio State); instead I got all caught up in the rankings. I got real burned out in med school, which is probably why my grades aren't that great (not horrible, but not great). I'm sure if I went to a state public school, it would have been much easier to compete and do well. (Edit: that's what it feels like to me, anyway...this is not a rip on state schools, and I'm not being elitist, i'm going by averages). But I didn't have a crystal ball that would tell me I was applying to ophtho and what kind of school was better for me. I think I'm gonna give ophtho one more shot, but I'm seriously just considering going to medicine now....at least they seem to like me.
J
JR
Maybe in some instances you are correct, rice. But certainly not in all. m At my "crappy state school", which does not beleive in grade inflation, only the top 10% get honors and there is no high pass. On the other hand, the "big name school" across town does not even have an honors system (so they are all great as far as the residencies are concerned!) ; another school nearby gives out honors like candy, up to 35% in each class. So, to summarize, I am sorry you did not match, but your logic here is wrong.
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Perhaps it is easier to achieve a high class rank and AOA at a "state school;" however, being at a "state school" does not make it easier to score well on boards. In fact, if your assumption is that "state schools" are somehow inadequate with respect to training medical students, then it should be more difficult to score well on boards if you trained at a "state school." That may be why board scores seem to be the key to obtaining interviews at many programs.
J
JR
Don't forget that there are many factors that affect the choice of medical school- family, tuition, etc. I feel that my medical education was not compromised one bit at a state school, and, on the other hand, I am near my family, my med school loan is less that most have for just undergrad, and I am going to the top ophtho program.
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Very true. In-state tuition at a state school is peanuts. And proximity to family is definitely important, especially if you have kids. The take-home message is that each of us have our own hierarchy of factors that must be considered when making med school/residency decisions.
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Originally posted by Icewoman
But don't you have a connection with the chairman at Wilmer?
For a trollish type, you're fairly astute.
Where did you end up matching? Also, stop claiming you're from U. Penn b/c your IP address tells me otherwise!
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I don't know if you are responding to me, but actually I feel that many state schools provide better training and supervision compared to what I got (a lot of times ranking is based on reputation, research, and # of big-wigs, not necessarily on teaching quality). Also, some of the state schools teach towards the boards (I heard about one school where the tests consisted of board-style questions). My school did not, and I think that's a reason that I had to study extra. Anyway, I understand that opinions tend not to be generalizable and there are plenty of exceptions. It's nice to get different points of view.
J
JR
It's good to be the moderator, Andrew ? 
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Two things about grades here...
1) They're too subjective. A student can be a ***** but be enthusiastic and an overall bum-kisser and get honors, while the quieter types get crappy evals because of the perceived "lack of interest." I got that all the time.
2) Honors are not equal between schools. At my school, it's ridiculously hard to get honors. Case in point...On peds, my average eval was a 4.5 (out of 5), and I scored 85th percentile on the shelf. Sounded like a sure honors...nope, high pass for me. On medicine, my average eval was a 4.0 (out of 5) and I scored 77th percentile on the shelf...my grade Pass.
1) They're too subjective. A student can be a ***** but be enthusiastic and an overall bum-kisser and get honors, while the quieter types get crappy evals because of the perceived "lack of interest." I got that all the time.
2) Honors are not equal between schools. At my school, it's ridiculously hard to get honors. Case in point...On peds, my average eval was a 4.5 (out of 5), and I scored 85th percentile on the shelf. Sounded like a sure honors...nope, high pass for me. On medicine, my average eval was a 4.0 (out of 5) and I scored 77th percentile on the shelf...my grade Pass.
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True.
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Your comment ignores differences in curriculum between different schools. Many of the top tier medical schools pride themselves on NOT teaching to the board exams. Their curriculums focus on whatever they think is important rather than what is emphasized on the boards. In contrast, many of the middle or lower-tier med schools at which I interviewed advertised that many of their classes were geared toward preparing for the board exams and had board review courses. In addition, most of the top med schools are research-driven institutions, and students are typically expected to invest more of their time pursuing research activities (which certainly doesn't help with the boards).
Students from top schools probably do have higher average boards scores than students from other schools, but their is a lot of variability and I think the higher average scores are more a factor of students being better test-takers and highly motivated.
In addition, Step 1 scores (which are the primary scores used by residency selection committees) only reflect the basic science curriculum. In my opinion, the clinical training that a med school provides is MUCH more important. Residency programs base much of their evaluation of an applicant's school on the performance of past residents at their institution who came from that school.
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I feel a good medical school (state or otherwise) can teach to the boards (they're still the standard of measure, right or wrong), foster research, and provide excellent clinical training. I feel this way about my own (state) school.
As far as your point about the importance of clinical training, I couldn't agree more. However, if a residency program never accepts an applicant from a non-top tier school, how will they know about that school's clinical preparation?
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Your absolutely right... I think that is the real down-side of going to a lower tier med school. If no one from your school has ever gone to that program and none of the faculty there have ever worked at med students from your school, then it is definitely a gamble for them because they don't really know what they're getting.
Programs like known quantities. If they've taken 5 people from Harvard or Hopkins in the past and they've all performed really well, then strong candidates from those schools will be viewed favorably. However, they may have had people from those same schools that didn't perform well at the program, and that may work against future applicants from those schools, so it goes both ways.
The unknown school disadvantage can be overcome (look at the match lists for many of the strong programs) with a really strong application that provides evidence of what a good resident you'll be through grades, boards, letters, clinical performance, etc, but it's always a gamble for the program.
Programs like known quantities. If they've taken 5 people from Harvard or Hopkins in the past and they've all performed really well, then strong candidates from those schools will be viewed favorably. However, they may have had people from those same schools that didn't perform well at the program, and that may work against future applicants from those schools, so it goes both ways.
The unknown school disadvantage can be overcome (look at the match lists for many of the strong programs) with a really strong application that provides evidence of what a good resident you'll be through grades, boards, letters, clinical performance, etc, but it's always a gamble for the program.
Honors is all about shelf grades. Everybody gets at least 4/5 on their evals. I think that a standard deviation in clinical scores at my school was seriously like a 1% difference or something ridiculous like that.
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I agree medical school quality and Ophthalmology program ranking are more important than board scores. Residency applications for small specialties are about who you know. I definitely believe my medical school has been a disadvantage in this process.
I agree. I would have gladly taken a 10-15 point drop in my board scores in exchange for attending a top 20 med school. Just look at their match lists. Their worst applicants usually match at better programs than the top students at average to below-average med schools.
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It depends on whether you want to match to a top 10 ophtho program.. if you are going to be happy with a chance at a top 10 but really aiming for something a little more middle tier, then I think your school doesn't change things. It HELPS to be from harvard, etc, but I doubt that being from a smaller school will be the deciding factor. Although I don't know the specifics like grades and board scores, in the last 2 years our school matched 5 and 7 people in ophtho (someone at GWU, Emory, UAB, Arizona, don't remember the rest off the top of my head). No one was left unmatched. I go to NEOUCOM, and I highly doubt that anyone here has heard of it, yet it doesn't seem to stop anyone.
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I have. Where I did my residency gets a lot of NEOUCOM people going through, either as applicants or as residents (and one of the current retina fellows at Doheny is from there).
I agree with JR that there are many factors to consider when one chooses a med school, and it's not a good idea to assume that just because someone is at a mid-tier school that they are an inferior student.
That sort of arrogance can really get people burned. We've had a few applicants come through in past years from "top" medical schools who clearly felt that our program was beneath them, but they came to interview as a safety (one applicant even flat out told us we were one of his safeties). That's a quick way to get yourself knocked down the list, and a few of them have ended up not matching at all.
IME, medical school ranking may be a tie-breaker, but it's definitely not a make-or-break issue. Of course, when you have so many closely clustered applicants, that little tie-breaker can become significant, especially at the top programs.
Board scores mean significantly more. Honors mean more if you're being compared to others from your school. As mentioned above, honors criteria vary widely from school to school. The only time they're really helpful is if you have a few students from one school, and some of them get honors, and others don't.
As someone mentioned above (I don't remember who), who writes your LOR's mentions. Most people skip to the name on the letterhead first, and then skim the actual letter. If I know the person writing the letter, that means more. If I know them well, I'll sometimes call them and get the real scoop. We get some people where the LOR is clearly a form, because we'll get multiple letters from the same attending, and they are word-for-word identical. That doesn't inspire confidence in the effort put into the letters, or how much we can get out of them. This is one area where the big-name med schools give an advantage over the mid-tier schools. They'll have more recognizable names. That just means that if you're at a mid-tier, you have to work harder somewhere else on the app to make up for it.
I think the biggest problem with my medical school was that they don't have a true ophthalmology department, just some ophthalmologists affiliated with the hospital. I got lucky when I was there, because a relatively big-name glaucoma guy was the dean of the medschool for the 4 years I was a student. That helped, and I made it to one of my top choices despite being from a mid-tier med school.
Dave
I agree with this statement. I thought I had a strong application, with AOA, all honors in third year, a board score in the 240s, some ophtho research, a second-author publication, a well known ophtho writing me a very strong LOR etc etc....to me, everything seemed to be in place. Yet I've only gotten three invites, and I've been rejected at places I considered "safeties," in a broad sense of the term. This process has been very humbling and disappointing. I really think the only thing my application is missing is a top-10 med school name. I go to a pretty good med school (you've all heard of it) with a somewhat mediocre ophtho dept, where only a few students a yr go into ophtho, and usually match at the home program. I think this is what's preventing my application from being considered at the top-tier programs, since my grades and board scores are on par with theirs. It's distressing to me that even though I worked my a** off during med school to be AOA and at the top of my class, I'm very likely to still only match at my home program, simply because of the rep of my school.
When I applied I had virtually identical credentials. In the end, you'll do fine in the match. But I understand your frustrations. Provided you applied to at least 30 programs, I'd be surprised if you didn't end up with >10 interviews when all is said and done.
Honestly, I am of the opinion that med school rep matters only when other things are equal. Why do I think so? Because I am from one of those top 10 med schools (and now doing research at a top 10 ophtho place), yet still didn't match cause of my board scores. I think boards are most important, cause I am of the opinion that 1) they use them for screening purposes, and 2) if you have bad scores they STILL look at them after you have interviewed and they are going over apps for the rank lists. Bottom line I'm a ******* for not realizing how important the boards were and also not realizing that standardized tests weren't my forte, and now I can't undo that... All this stuff I'm going through just cause of one (ok, two) tests
Oh, and I interviewed just fine, I have gotten positive feedback on that from a couple PDs after the match results came out. One of them said I couldn't have done any better at the interview (yet I didn't match...). This is a case-in-counterpoint to the theory that once at the interview, the rest of your stuff is unimportant. Take it as you will...
How many interviews did you go to? I'm so VERY sorry to hear you didn't match!
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How many interviews did you go to? I'm so VERY sorry to hear you didn't match!
This thread beings back some bad memories... That year I went to 7 interviews. I heard that I was very close to matching at one of them. I just don't think it was meant to be for me. So anyway I started thinking about procedural medicine subspecialties, and I'm finishing up a medicine residency this year and already matched in a competitive fellowship. I got almost 4x the number of interviews for my fellowship than I did for ophtho. My credentials are the same... I sometimes think what could have been if I matched in ophtho, you know? All I know is that life is unpredictable and it usually doesn't play out the way you originally intended.
