med and bizness musings

[konverse]

hey everyone
how's it going?
let me preface this by saying that i've done a lot of thinking about life direction, possible career paths, levels of success etc.
i'm a canadian. have a degree in physiotherapy. worked in private practice for two years. now i've been accepted to a private american medical school and will most likely be going.

my thoughts on this subject are:
i have nurtured the concept of medicine for many years. everything i have done, all what i have aspired for has been to be a doctor. it's something that is almost built into me now. it's what i feel i know or soon will. so i should be super elated to soon be studying medicine. and i am.
but not really. it's almost bittersweet.

i think what's happened over the past two years, with earning good money, buying a condo, taking an accounting course, contributing to RRSPs (IRA?), investing in stocks etc and generally hanging around business oriented people is that i am developing a strong interest for...
business. and money.

why is a doctor equated with success? i'm having difficulty reconciling this issue as i see others making it super big for themselves, making huge money in the business industry or in finance, yet at the same time being completely generous, humble and down to earth people, contributing to society in their own way AND having a ton of fun doing it.

can you become rich being a doctor? yes, but not immediately. i'm 25, do i want to wait till i'm 40 to be making huge coin? hell no.
plus being in debt, and then you get paid next to nothing in residency. yes you will be doctor and that is MOST DEFINITELY a source of genuine pride, but i don't know, the concept doesn't grab me like it used to.

why is my life taking so long to get going? i think it's because i don't have a clear clear focus and that is also a source of frustration for me.

so what are my options.

i know i want to study medicine because that is what i know, what my aptitude is and what i have tailored my skill sets to be. but i know i <people in general> can do other things as well and be good at it. i want to make a filthy amount of money <in a very grounded manner> in the least amount of time possible. i want to make it big like crazy guns blazing BIG.
y'all won't know what hit you.

i think that simply by me attending a private school in the united states is one way for me to connect med and bizness. i also think that the healthcare industry in the US as a business is HUGE. so i need to figure out a way to tap into this but i don't have much insight.

the long and traditional way of becoming a doctor, residency, then making money and then going into business ventures i know for sure ain't for me. i just need to figure out how to put ideas into action, which i'm sure i will have a better idea once the ball is rolling. but...

thanks for reading and your thoughts are appreciated!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Law2Doc]

i want to make a filthy amount of money <in a very grounded manner> in the least amount of time possible. i want to make it big like crazy guns blazing BIG.

Only do medicine if you want to practice medicine. If you want to make filthy amounts of money, then medicine is probably not the best road, because it takes many years before you earn much, requires more hours than most fields, and while folks are generally very comfortable on physician's salaries, and not as much at the mercy of economic downturns as some other fields, they are really not generally what I would call "filthy rich", at least not any more. The fastest routes to big money tend to be fraught with the highest risk, but that sounds like what you are shooting for. Go into I-banking/money management and if you can do well (a big if), you can make more in year end bonuses than several years of most folks salaries, in less time than it will take to get through med school. It's more of a gamble than the slow and steady approach most premeds are taking. But if you need to make it big, that is going to be a better direction.

 

[konverse]

Only do medicine if you want to practice medicine. If you want to make filthy amounts of money, then medicine is probably not the best road, because it takes many years before you earn much, requires more hours than most fields, and while folks are generally very comfortable on physician's salaries, and not as much at the mercy of economic downturns as some other fields, they are really not generally what I would call "filthy rich", at least not any more. The fastest routes to big money tend to be fraught with the highest risk, but that sounds like what you are shooting for. Go into I-banking/money management and if you can do well (a big if), you can make more in year end bonuses than several years of most folks salaries, in less time than it will take to get through med school. It's more of a gamble than the slow and steady approach most premeds are taking. But if you need to make it big, that is going to be a better direction.

negative.
i see where you are coming from but realistically it doesn't make sense. <the guns blazing bit was more for shock factor ). I-banking etc is not where the bulk of my skill-set lies. i want to be a doctor, as that is something i have worked towards for many years and the thought of practicing still excites me. BUT.
i'm not fooling myself into thinking that a doctor can make it big financially immediately or soon after graduating.
so my question to you all is:
given my desire to study med and be a doctor, coupled with my recently developed and tangible business interests, how can i approach the next four years of my education to connect these two tangents.
i know this is not going to happen overnight. i'm old enough to have figured that bit out. but the way i think about things definitely influences where i'll end up.

 

[Shredder]

key to amassing huge wealth is hoarding capital and equity. forget about wages, they will never get you there. and doctors are ultimately wage earners. so youll somehow have to break out of the mold, the medical glass ceiling. you might be able to get away with skipping residency and heading straight for business, with an md and mba in hand especially from a quality school. there are threads on it, give them a look if you can locate them. what kind of fortune is your target? different strategies for different levels of opulence

im 21, dont listen too closely

 

[Law2Doc]

forget about wages, they will never get you there. and doctors are ultimately wage earners.
...

im 21, dont listen too closely

I'm a lot older than 21, and I totally agree with Shredder's above point. Probably should be made a sticky and stuck on a bunch of these boards to dissuade those folks who are expecting to be gazillionaires on a doctor's salary. If you need to be more than comfortable, you need to make your money elsewhere. Or marry rich. Or play the lottery.

 

[CTSballer11]

I'm a lot older than 21, and I totally agree with Shredder's above point. Probably should be made a sticky and stuck on a bunch of these boards to dissuade those folks who are expecting to be gazillionaires on a doctor's salary. If you need to be more than comfortable, you need to make your money elsewhere. Or marry rich. Or play the lottery.

I guess the idea of making mass amounts of wealth in medicine is unreasonable, but I think if you could hit 500k a yr, which some docs do, then you will be wealthy. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Shredder]

through medicine you can reach the order of 10 million (wealth, not income) but not 100M. humans just cannot work beyond a certain capacity without having others work for them, directly or indirectly. wealthy is subject to different standards, so theres not really a correct or incorrect

getting loaded does take initial financing though, and a docs salary is good for that. otherwise one may have to do lots of pleading with relatives and hesitant investors--also you may not get more than one shot, and after that youll be finished and living meagerly. so doc is a good bet, a comfort guarantee. its rare to hear of debt ridden and cash strapped docs. also income is heavily taxed, so 500k gross amounts to substantially less net. whereas with investments there are loopholes and shelters to utilize

 

[disque71]

where are you located shredder? btw, clear your pm box.

 

[Law2Doc]

I guess the idea of making mass amounts of wealth in medicine is unreasonable, but I think if you could hit 500k a yr, which some docs do, then you will be wealthy. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If afraid you are kind of wrong -- You are looking at older docs, who got in and established before these days of HMOs and reimbursements, i.e. back in the "golden age" of medicine. Most physicians who are being minted these days top out at well below the amount you indicated. Still comfortable, but really not as rich as you suggest. Talk to folks less than 5 years out of residency and you will get more realistic prospects as to current trends in income in medicine. Do your homework if this aspect of the profession is important to you.

(I'm sure anecdotally you can still find someone who earns that in one of the uber competitive fields, but for each one, there will be hundreds who max out much lower).

 

[Shredder]

where are you located shredder? btw, clear your pm box.

ah, my angel status just ran out, thats why it suddenly changed to full. cleared...and i need that angel status symbol back too

oh + im in austin

 

[CTSballer11]

If afraid you are kind of wrong -- You are looking at older docs, who got in and established before these days of HMOs and reimbursements, i.e. back in the "golden age" of medicine. Most physicians who are being minted these days top out at well below the amount you indicated. Still comfortable, but really not as rich as you suggest. Talk to folks less than 5 years out of residency and you will get more realistic prospects as to current trends in income in medicine. Do your homework if this aspect of the profession is important to you.

(I'm sure anecdotally you can still find someone who earns that in one of the uber competitive fields, but for each one, there will be hundreds who max out much lower).

True, I may have went a little high with the 500K, but making around 300K you will be living pretty well, assuming you save and invest your money.

 

[CatsandCradles]

hey everyone
how's it going?
let me preface this by saying that i've done a lot of thinking about life direction, possible career paths, levels of success etc.
i'm a canadian. have a degree in physiotherapy. worked in private practice for two years. now i've been accepted to a private american medical school and will most likely be going.

my thoughts on this subject are:
i have nurtured the concept of medicine for many years. everything i have done, all what i have aspired for has been to be a doctor. it's something that is almost built into me now. it's what i feel i know or soon will. so i should be super elated to soon be studying medicine. and i am.
but not really. it's almost bittersweet.

i think what's happened over the past two years, with earning good money, buying a condo, taking an accounting course, contributing to RRSPs (IRA?), investing in stocks etc and generally hanging around business oriented people is that i am developing a strong interest for...
business. and money.

why is a doctor equated with success? i'm having difficulty reconciling this issue as i see others making it super big for themselves, making huge money in the business industry or in finance, yet at the same time being completely generous, humble and down to earth people, contributing to society in their own way AND having a ton of fun doing it.

can you become rich being a doctor? yes, but not immediately. i'm 25, do i want to wait till i'm 40 to be making huge coin? hell no.
plus being in debt, and then you get paid next to nothing in residency. yes you will be doctor and that is MOST DEFINITELY a source of genuine pride, but i don't know, the concept doesn't grab me like it used to.

why is my life taking so long to get going? i think it's because i don't have a clear clear focus and that is also a source of frustration for me.

so what are my options.

i know i want to study medicine because that is what i know, what my aptitude is and what i have tailored my skill sets to be. but i know i <people in general> can do other things as well and be good at it. i want to make a filthy amount of money <in a very grounded manner> in the least amount of time possible. i want to make it big like crazy guns blazing BIG.
y'all won't know what hit you.

i think that simply by me attending a private school in the united states is one way for me to connect med and bizness. i also think that the healthcare industry in the US as a business is HUGE. so i need to figure out a way to tap into this but i don't have much insight.

the long and traditional way of becoming a doctor, residency, then making money and then going into business ventures i know for sure ain't for me. i just need to figure out how to put ideas into action, which i'm sure i will have a better idea once the ball is rolling. but...

thanks for reading and your thoughts are appreciated!

I don't think physicians are going to be making a "filthy amount of money" as some people may think. The good old days are gone. There are still some physicians who are making close to $500,000, but they are in private practice groups and often in specialty fields. Often these groups are located in the well to do areas of "suburbia" so to speak.

Just remember this acronmy ROADs = radiology, opthamalogy,
anesthesiologist, dermatology. (Sorry about the spelling errors)

But for the rest of us grunts, we won't be making $500,000. We won't be rich, but we will certaintly be well to do.

For those of us who are not in the ROADs specialties, here is what I have to say: Most people work for money. And that is respectable. However if you want to aquire more money - then make money work for you.

Being the average physician won't make you rich - but you have the ability to become fairly rich if you invest carefully.

These are the three secrets to investment:

1) Stocks
2) Land
3) Gold

Now Land and Gold are too complicated for me to talk about. So I will talk about stocks.

What are some really big companies out there? IBM, Toyota ADR, GM, Ford, Catapillar, General Electric, and Boeing.

But does this mean we should invest in these? Maybe. Maybe not. IBM is at like $78 a share and Toyota ADR close to $97. These are too expensive for the average joe physician to buy. Sure you might be able to buy 100 shares, but that's it - just 100 shares.

So how about GM and Ford. Hey they're at $21 and $8 respectively. The average physician can aquire what?

$100,000 / $8 = 12,500 shares of Ford.

But do you really want 12,500 shares of Ford. Hell no. Look at what's happening to Detroit's big three. It's a very difficult situation. A lot of layoffs and labor problems. What of GM? Rick Wagnor has got a lot of work to do before I would consider GM safe to invest in.

Catapillar, GE, and Boeing are good companies. But the price is still a little bit out of reach for us average joe physicians.

What do we do then?

There are some really big pharmacutical companies like Merk, Glaxo-Smith Kline, Pfizer, Bristol Myers Squib, and of course J&J.

Now you have to look at many factors before investing in a company. Is the P/E too high? Is it at a 52 week high? What was the company's quaterly income.

And here is the secret key: dividens

Take Bristol Myers Sqibb for example. Let's assume the share price is $24.00.

$100,000 / $24.00 = 4,160+ shares of BMY.

The dividens for BMY is at a nice 3.9%.

So:

24 x .039 = .936

.935 x 4160 shares of BMY = $3,893.00 yearly interest.

But the average physician says, "$3,893 a year? That's not too much considering the amount of money I placed to invest in BMY"

To this I say, true. But the share price can go up. What if Savonvi Adventis takes over BMY? The share price will go up.

Example is pace-maker and stent producing Guidant being taken over. Johnson & Johnson thought they had a deal with Guidant. But then Abbot Labs came around and stole it from J&J nose.

So back to the average joe physician. What must he do. Most likey he will have to place down more than $100,000 investment into BMY. And this is going to get problematic for him. He could decide to not invest in BMY, and go with the microchip maker, INTEL which just fell to a 52 week low: $18.00.

Intel doesn't pay to hot of a dividen - but the share price might go up.

But what if our joe physician gets bold and invest $400,000 into BMY:

That is 16,660 shares x .936 = $15,600 yearly interest.

Ok $15,600 is getting us somewhere. Considering the average family income in America is about $38,000 I think $15,600 is quite a bit of money that your money generated. If your one of those people who loves donating to charaties, this is the way to go.

What if joe physician doesn't have $400,000 and just $100,000? Let's explore the Intel path.

$100,000 / $18 = 5,500 shares of Intel.

Let's say Intel's sales of the Pentium 5 processor is a big hit. And let's say AMD, Intel's chief competitor, screws up and has lower sales than expected. Those share of Intel could go up to $2 to $20 in a few months.

So 5,500 shares x $20 = $110,000

You have just made $10,000. And if the share price goes up a little further (which is very feasable) to about $26 then you make $43,000 in a space of several months.

But let's say the share price drops! To $16 a share. Well, our joe physician has just lost $13,000

So take your pick. Do you want to invest in a high dividens company that is solid, but won't grow or see to much price increase the share price (like BMY)

Or does the joe physician want to take a greater risk and invest in a more volitile company? (like Intel)

The choice is yours. Becareful - I've had big losses because of stupidity before.

In short, make money work for you and not you work for it.

Good luck.

 

[Shredder]

goodness thats long, but making money work for you is right on the mark. tons of options besides stocks: options (ha), futures, currencies, real estate, bonds, mutual funds...a whole gamut but it takes plenty of financial savvy to avoid botching it all. and thats just investing, theres always straight up entrepreneurship

 

[disque71]

I think stocks are an awful investment for any of us who read the boards and even physicians. The people who really make money on the stock market are the ones who are ridiculously wealthy and are essentially not gambling on stock prices(i.e. Martha Stewart is not an isolated incident), but rather controlling market shares.

There are plenty of other good investing opportunities that do not involve some form of pseudo gambling with your hard earned money. If I had 100K I would definitely steer clear of stocks that bring back a maximum of 15% for a 100K risk? Why? Be more creative and find other avenues to direct income potentials of around 20%. That is unless, you are making millions, and then I may consider stocks.

 

[CatsandCradles]

goodness thats long, but making money work for you is right on the mark. tons of options besides stocks: options (ha), futures, currencies, real estate, bonds, mutual funds...a whole gamut but it takes plenty of financial savvy to avoid botching it all. and thats just investing, theres always straight up entrepreneurship

Remember Guidant? It was started by an orthopedpic surgeon. Imagine how well to do he is now that Abbot has bought his company

 

[Law2Doc]

I think stocks are an awful investment for any of us who read the boards and even physicians. The people who really make money on the stock market are the ones who are ridiculously wealthy and are essentially not gambling on stock prices(i.e. Martha Stewart is not an isolated incident), but rather controlling market shares.

There are plenty of other good investing opportunities that do not involve some form of pseudo gambling with your hard earned money. If I had 100K I would definitely steer clear of stocks that bring back a maximum of 15% for a 100K risk? Why? Be more creative and find other avenues to direct income potentials of around 20%. That is unless, you are making millions, and then I may consider stocks.

A diversified portfolio of varying risked equity (stocks) and debt (bonds) instruments is not an unreasonable investment for anyone. But the return is only about 6-7% per year over time for this relatively safe investment. Not that many folks would call it gambling unless you are just picking a small number of risky stocks and putting all your money in them -- which smart people hardly ever do (without inside info). If you want more of a hands off approach you can get almost the same return with a mutual fund that will pick the stocks/bonds for you. Perfectly reasonable investment, and advisable for retirement reasons (IRA, 401K etc). But you won't get rich off it any time soon. Most other forms of investment, particularly those that could make you the 20% return you describe, require far more hands-on time, and frankly you just wont have a lot of that as a physician.

 

[ASDIC]

Mutual funds are the biggest scam today in American Business...

The owners of the mutual funds dont give a rat's ass about the stocks in their mutual funds...if you look at the returns of mutual funds they probably average in the single digits...plus some of them can only be vested when u retire and some of them have fees.

Mutual funds are for the lazy investor who doesnt wanna do market research on his/her own to make more money

 

[Shredder]

mutual funds are the best bet for uninformed investors and 401k type of things. some do have fees and loads but many dont. index funds and ETFs are gaining in popularity i believe though. next bull market = commodities! good thread

 

[Law2Doc]

if you look at the returns of mutual funds they probably average in the single digits...

Shocking. The rate of return on equities over time is only in the single digits (6-7%), whether you do it by mutual funds or buy all blue chips or buy the index. That's pretty common knowledge. Doesn't make it a scam. You cannot do much better than this in the market without taking much more significant risks.
While I sort of agree with the comment that mutual funds are for the lazy investor, I would recharacterize it as the investor who is busy with other things -- eg. his full time profession. You cannot do the kind of research necessary to make a big profit in stocks unless you devote an enormous amount of time or have superior connections. Reading the WSJ won't do it. A mutual fund is just a form of hiring someone to do the homework for you.

 

[Shredder]

Shocking. The rate of return on equities over time is only in the single digits (6-7%), whether you do it by mutual funds or buy all blue chips or buy the index. That's pretty common knowledge. Doesn't make it a scam. You cannot do much better than this in the market without taking much more significant risks.
While I sort of agree with the comment that mutual funds are for the lazy investor, I would recharacterize it as the investor who is busy with other things -- eg. his full time profession. You cannot do the kind of research necessary to make a big profit in stocks unless you devote an enormous amount of time or have superior connections. Reading the WSJ won't do it. A mutual fund is just a form of hiring someone to do the homework for you.

 

[etf]

i consider myself a pretty sophisticated investor, but i still send a set amount of money every month to be invested into the fidelity contrafund - will danoff is the man, and has a 10 year annualized return of a little under 12%...so mutual funds are def. not a scam, nor are they only for "passive" investors...

 

[Shredder]

are you an exchange traded fund?

 

[etf]

lol, yup - AMEX: EEM

 

[etf]

hahaha...just after i mentioned it yesterday, today fidelity announced that they are closing the contrafund to new investors as of april 28...better get in while you can...

 

[Shredder]

if only i had the capital we could talk investing on this board every day. i wish i could finish med school faster...after i even start it that is. i have to close my etrade account--blasted account inactivity fees, $40 a quarter, they must think im rich

 

[Law2Doc]

if only i had the capital we could talk investing on this board every day.

It doesn't take any capital to "talk investing".

 

[Shredder]

i agree but theres little use in getting heavily involved in it in principle, when you cannot do the same in practice. like yr 1 and 2 of med school vs 3 and 4. plus talking investing w/o money to put to use is only good for educational purposes. with money there might be some tangible benefit...$!

 

[DrBowtie]

i agree but theres little use in getting heavily involved in it in principle, when you cannot do the same in practice. like yr 1 and 2 of med school vs 3 and 4. plus talking investing w/o money to put to use is only good for educational purposes. with money there might be some tangible benefit...$!

We can have an SDN stock market challenge!

 

[Shredder]

ive been thinking about doing a good one of those. are there some online? any that have a more replete portfolio than just stocks?

 

[etf]

sure...just go to yahoo finance (or something similar), make a fake portfolio, and invest in anything from t-bills to rapeseed futures...

 

[Shredder]

That sounds pretty cool, I'll check it out. Still, the incentive is not there to really get into it. It's easy to make frivolous investments with no real risk at hand. Soybeans! and oh those ETFs. also currencies, Soros like

 

[OccptlMed]

Wow this link went wild and off to investing. I guess it makes sense given how it started...Konverse wants to be a doctor - or at least use his skill sets and current training and aptitude - And he want to be very rich.

I can understand this - as Id like to do so myself - and I think all the advice leaning towards investing is wise.

I believe you can get rich on almost any salary - the question is how much of your income are you able to and willing to Save and Invest. Read the book 'rich dad poor dad' The premise is save all your money (above basic food and shelter and health needs) and invest it All - diversified of course - until you can live off, and reinvest the interest and returns. This is the basis of getting rich under the american system.

However, this usually takes time - depending on your strictness and salary and life's curve balls - but generally, if you want that german sports car Now, thats $XX,xxx less you have for investing.....so discipline is the key, see?

Also dont forget, people, ....cant buy me love.....but you could probably rent something that seems like it
good luck and more importantly - good health.....

 

[Shredder]

Also dont forget, people, ....cant buy me love.....but you could probably rent something that seems like it

 

[etf]

Kiyosaki is trash - don't waste your time reading it. It's easy to get rich - live below your means, or develop means that you can't live above...

 

[CTSballer11]

 

[Shredder]

all strategies for getting rich have at their root: delaying consumption today for greater consumption tomorrow

i should have posted all of trumps trophies to highlight the renting aspect