MD/PhD chances?

[Red_Jay]

I am a senior in a top 10 school studying biomedical engineering and mechanical engineering. cGPA=sGPA=3.9. MCAT 508. Asian. I will graduate from college when I am relatively young (spent 3 years to get two engineering majors) but I'm not sure if this will help me or hold me back.

EC:
3 years of basic science research in a biomechanics lab, 3 years in a genetic lab. Definitely >1000 hrs each. At least one publication and several presentations. Great LORs from famous professors (some of which are my PIs) with stuff like "the best undergraduate researcher ever". One fellowship in neuroscience and one national fellowship (by AHA) in cardiology.
RA of my building for two years. Leader of RA of my residential college (more than 500 people) for one year.
100 hour volunteering in a hospital.
President of one club.
Working as a TA and tutor for multiple classes for two years.
I developed an applicable algorithm and corresponding software that can be used in genetic research. It is on its way to be commercialized and I will cooperate with a big genetics firm.
Semi-professional soccer referee.

I guess I'm still asking do I have any chance? I feel that my MCAT is catastrophic.

BTW I don't think I'm a stereotypical "gifted kid" with awkward social skills and stuff (Ahhh what kind of "gifted kid" would score this low on MCAT). I am great at presentation and public speaking and one of my LORs will be focusing on that.

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[Petrichor1]

I believe regardless of MCAT (hopefully near 510) you do stand some chances for the dual degree but probably reaches for mid to low tier. I would attempt to create a list that has all the schools where you fall between their 10th and 90th percentile in the MSAR and make sure that you have a mix of MD only and MD/PhD schools. I really wouldn't bet too much on the MD/PhD primarily because I have had people I know with much higher stat than yours not even gain admission...so decide if you truly want to be a doctor or a researcher to prevent that from happening to you.

 

[Red_Jay]

I believe regardless of MCAT (hopefully near 510) you do stand some chances for the dual degree but probably reaches for mid to low tier. I would attempt to create a list that has all the schools where you fall between their 10th and 90th percentile in the MSAR and make sure that you have a mix of MD only and MD/PhD schools. I really wouldn't bet too much on the MD/PhD primarily because I have had people I know with much higher stat than yours not even gain admission...so decide if you truly want to be a doctor or a researcher to prevent that from happening to you.

Thank you for your advice! I will definitely apply for both MD and MD/PhD. It seems that nearly all my ECs are research-orientated. Would this harm my MD-only chance?

 

[candbgirl]

Do you have any clinical ECs, shadowing etc?


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[Red_Jay]

Do you have any clinical ECs, shadowing etc?


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Sadly I have little shadowing experience, most of them overseas (in China, when I was in a summer volunteering program). My regular volunteering is in the telemetry nursing station and I developed a monitoring device (detail omitted since it has not been patented) that could potentially be applied in a wilder range. I don't know if this counts as clinical experience. Seems too technical.

 

[Red_Jay]

Someone please help?

 

[md-2020]

You need clinical volunteering and shadowing to be competitive for MD admissions purposes. No patient contact is a no go

 

[Red_Jay]

You need clinical volunteering and shadowing to be competitive for MD admissions purposes. No patient contact is a no go

I have around 100 hours of volunteering in the telemetry department and around 100 hours shadowing of a general surgeon (in China) and a cardiologist (here). That does not seem to be enough does it...

 

[md-2020]

I have around 100 hours of volunteering in the telemetry department and around 100 hours shadowing of a general surgeon (in China) and a cardiologist (here). That does not seem to be enough does it...

It might be, but given that you're an Asian ORM (like me!) and have an ehh MCAT (for an ORM), I'd get some more to be safe. You want to let adcoms know that you're familiar with clinical practice in the US, not just lab research (which is great btw). I don't think shadowing in China will be useful.

The good news is that it should be easy to get some more hours. Just go find some volunteering gig at your local hospital, they'll usually be okay if you shadow a bit on the side. Good luck!

 

[Red_Jay]

It might be, but given that you're an Asian ORM (like me!) and have an ehh MCAT (for an ORM), I'd get some more to be safe. You want to let adcoms know that you're familiar with clinical practice in the US, not just lab research (which is great btw). I don't think shadowing in China will be useful.

The good news is that it should be easy to get some more hours. Just go find some volunteering gig at your local hospital, they'll usually be okay if you shadow a bit on the side. Good luck!

Thank you so much! I'll definitely make up for it. BTW do you think I have any chance in MD/PhD program? I mean my MCAT is probably a deal breaker, but would my GPA, the fact that I am 2-3 years younger than average applicants (I heard they somehow prefer younger applicants since MD/PhD programs take 7-8 years to finish) and my research experience make up for it?

 

[md-2020]

Thank you so much! I'll definitely make up for it. BTW do you think I have any chance in MD/PhD program? I mean my MCAT is probably a deal breaker, but would my GPA, the fact that I am 2-3 years younger than average applicants (I heard they somehow prefer younger applicants since MD/PhD programs take 7-8 years to finish) and my research experience make up for it?

I can't say for sure, sorry. But if your research has been strong and productive (authorship), you may be somewhat competitive for lower-tier MSTPs. At least worth applying, IMHO.

 

[nonamesleft]

I mean my MCAT is probably a deal breaker, but would my GPA, the fact that I am 2-3 years younger than agverage applicants (I heard they somehow prefer younger applicants since MD/PhD programs take 7-8 years to finish) and my research experience make up for it?

MD/PhD programs don't "prefer younger". They still require the same level of maturity as the MD programs. What they do look for (IMO) is strong commitment to research, ability to handle med school course load, and good test taking skills. Your step 1 scores will be 3-5 years older than your cohort by the time you match and the average score creeps up during the time you've been in lab. Therefore, you need to be at least above average, if not 1-2 SD above average when you take the exam to still be competitive by the time you match.

 

[Penguin33]

Thank you so much! I'll definitely make up for it. BTW do you think I have any chance in MD/PhD program? I mean my MCAT is probably a deal breaker, but would my GPA, the fact that I am 2-3 years younger than average applicants (I heard they somehow prefer younger applicants since MD/PhD programs take 7-8 years to finish) and my research experience make up for it?

Are you absolutely against taking a gap year or two? I would say if you get more clinical experience and possibly retake your MCAT, you'd strengthen your application a lot and would improve your chances for MD/PhD programs. With that said, I don't think your MCAT is a necessarily a dealbreaker (I met people with lower MCATs who did very well for MSTP) and you have a very realistic shot if you have been productive research-wise, so I'd go ahead and try! If you don't end up applying MSTP, it's possible that many programs will wonder why you didn't apply for MD/PhD since your application is geared more towards research than for clinical experiences, so that's something to consider as well.

I don't think being younger is necessarily an advantage; I met mostly/a lot of applicants this past interview cycle who were all seniors out of college, but a lot of programs also interview people 2-3 years out of college. I think a lot of the "preference" is self selection-- most students who want to do MD/PhD apply earlier because they know they have a long road ahead; if someone's already been out 5 years they're less likely to choose the extra four years.

 

[Red_Jay]

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[Red_Jay]

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[nonamesleft]

If I may ask, what are my chances in MD/PhD programs in your opinion?

I think your GPA is fairly competitive, unless you're shooting for extreme top-tier. How balanced is your MCAT? There's a big difference between an 11/11/11 and a 15/10/8. While MD/PhD programs weigh the research component heavily, you do still need to convince the MD committee that you're interested in the clinic. Your research will not be able to compensate for an extreme lack of clinical experience. (although I'm not sure if you'd fall into this category of "extreme," but more clinical experience wouldn't hurt)

I have great LORs from professors at this school's MSTP committee members.

Are they the ones that extend interview invites? Would it be a conflict of interest for them to advocate for you during the adcom meetings? It seems that these professors should be able to tailor your LORs to make you an excellent candidate for your dream program?

Actually some schools prefer that since in this way I can't quit MD/PhD two years later just to save money. Is that true or am I so desperate that I start to believe nonsense...

This is a concern if you haven't shown dedication to research. However, I think your research experience shows that you enjoy it? (I don't know how the multiple labs/projects affect that judgement on dedication..)

Another path to consider would be do MD now, and then do the PhD as part of your residency program. You'd have to pay for med school, but you'd earn a resident salary during the PhD...

 

[Penguin33]

My primary reason to apply this year is that I want to maintain the age "advantage" although it may not actually be an advantage. I am taking a gap year already (I am graduating in a few weeks). Thank you for your encouragement! I feel like my dream school (a high, high reach) is the med school of my undergraduate school. It is top-notch but almost all my connections are here and some of my LORs are from famous professors here. Would med schools favor students from their own undergraduate institutions or am I just dreaming...

Oh right, you're already taking a gap year, whoops. Sorry about that! I guess what you do this year won't really be on your application though (at best it would be "updates"). I mean I understand about wanting to get started as soon as possible. I took 2 years off and then changed my mind about MSTP partly because I had already taken 2 years off, haha.

Mmm I don't know if medical schools favor students from their own undergraduate institutions. Certainly Stanford/Harvard/other top schools seemed to end up with a significant chunk of their own undergrads at revisit, but I'm sure their own students are very good too, so who knows? (I came from a liberal arts college so 0 connections to medical schools, so I have no idea). It could be advantageous in respect to LORs, but I certainly wouldn't bank on it, particularly since there are so few MD/PhD slots.

 

[eteshoe]

Unless you're 30+ yrs old, you won't be screened out for MD/PhD programs based on age (I was about 25-26 when I started). Also most dual degree programs really tend to be in the 8-10 yr range in this day and age.

 

[Red_Jay]

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[Red_Jay]

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[nonamesleft]

The reason for me to switch lab is because I came to the US after my sophomore year. Would that harm my application? I am also applying for some good PhD programs in biostatistics as a backup plan.

Wait.. are you an international applicant? That would change your chances, and not for the better, unfortunately.

Ask your letter writers for their honest opinion of your chances. They've seen the breadth of accepted/interviewed/rejected at your institution, and can give you a clearer picture than my shot in the dark about your chances. However, there's definitely voodoo/magic involved with the application process. By all accounts, I should've never made it into med school, let alone a MD/PhD program, with my stats..

 

[Red_Jay]

Wait.. are you an international applicant? That would change your chances, and not for the better, unfortunately.

Ask your letter writers for their honest opinion of your chances. They've seen the breadth of accepted/interviewed/rejected at your institution, and can give you a clearer picture than my shot in the dark about your chances. However, there's definitely voodoo/magic involved with the application process. By all accounts, I should've never made it into med school, let alone a MD/PhD program, with my stats..

I am getting the permanent residency status right now but I don't know if there's going to be enough time... Are you also an international student? I saw you mentioned your school did not take international student except for MD/PhD program and I am wondering if I could give it a shot.

 

[nonamesleft]

I am getting the permanent residency status right now but I don't know if there's going to be enough time... Are you also an international student? I saw you mentioned your school did not take international student except for MD/PhD program and I am wondering if I could give it a shot.

Depending on which states you'd like to live in, yes. Also, admissions rules changed after my year and we started accepting OOS for MD program.

 

[Red_Jay]

Depending on which states you'd like to live in, yes. Also, admissions rules changed after my year and we started accepting OOS for MD program.

Well I have to try all possible schools... Would you happen to know if your school takes international MD/PhD this year? I can't find it on the school website... Thank you so much for your advice!