MD ---> Investment Banking???

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finallydoc2b

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Just wondering if anyone has any idea if this happens? I am 8 months away from graduating from a Ross University (a carribean med school) and would like to go into IB. Should I go back to undergrad at U of Michigan and study finance? I am leaning towards that but am wondering if a Goldman Sachs or Lehman will hire a 34 yr old Medical Doctor as an rookie analyst???

ANY HELP would be great!
Thank you!

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I know a guy who looked into and found that while you will most likely have a good chance landing a job it will be as an analyst (bottom of the totem pole). I would recommmend speaking with someone from the industry because it is as tough if not tougher than many residencies in terms of work hours and graciousness.
 
CAn you put me into contact with this person you know? I have so many questions. I am not afraid of 100hr work weeks. I look forward to it! I just want to love what I do, and medicine is not it. I did not do so great in undergrad (completed ~90 credit hours) but still managed to get into Ross and have since been the #1-2 student in my class as well as scoring in the 99th percentile on Step 1. Should I go back to undergrad and just start a BBA/finance from scratch? I will if this is what it takes. I am 29 now, will top tier IBs hire a 34 yo doctor?

Any help is GREATLY appreciated!
 
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Why don't you try doing an MBA?
 
I second that, an undergrad degree is a waste of of your time go for the MBA preferably at a top school with a focus on finance (Wharton, Stern, Chicago or Sloan). You'll look much more qualified, save two years (and two years worth of tuition), make more useful contacts, have more recruiting opportunities, come out with a better salary offer, and have greater ability to focus on health care related finance (assuming that is your interest.) Plus for someone finishing Med School the GMAT's should be a piece of cake.
 
Just wondering if anyone has any idea if this happens? I am 8 months away from graduating from a Ross University (a carribean med school) and would like to go into IB. Should I go back to undergrad at U of Michigan and study finance? I am leaning towards that but am wondering if a Goldman Sachs or Lehman will hire a 34 yr old Medical Doctor as an rookie analyst???

ANY HELP would be great!
Thank you!

If you don't mind me asking, why banking? What is the motivating force compelling you to switch to a new route. I only ask because it will be asked of you many times over. Know, and practice your answer now.

Sorry, the term I-Banking or IB makes me cringe.
 
If you don't mind me asking, why banking? What is the motivating force compelling you to switch to a new route. I only ask because it will be asked of you many times over. Know, and practice your answer now.

Sorry, the term I-Banking or IB makes me cringe.

He can always say he's realized he wants to make lot of money. That's what IB is about, and most, if not all, of i-bankers are very honest about it.

Why does the term make you cringe?
 
He can always say he's realized he wants to make lot of money. That's what IB is about, and most, if not all, of i-bankers are very honest about it.

Why does the term make you cringe?

Making money is fine, I'm all for it. The only problem with your post is that investment banking is not just about making lots of money. Also, just saying you want to be an investment banker is somewhat generic (something the OP said). Do you want to want to work in debt or equity sales, fixed income sale, equity research, fixed income research, mergers and acquisitions, sales and trading, or does the life of an investment banking just sounds cool to you because they make money.

I'm comfortable with money. Hey, the more the better, but unlike you, I actually know what the path and journey is like and not I'm not just associating investment banking to money.

Why does the term i-bank and ibanking make me cringe? Simply because I never hear it, except from laypeople. I would venture to bet if you called a Goldman Sach associate an I-banker, he/she would immediately form a negative opinion of you and your character (just an assumption now) and realize you're obviously not in his clique.
So I cringe, because while currently trying to break into the industry (and not having much success, mind you) after once being a pre-med, when I hear all my pre-med friends say ibanking, I somewhat laugh (and cringe) because only outside of banking do people actually use that term.
It's like going to Virginia Tech's campus and yelling "Go VaTech". No one there says VaTech. Heck, they despise ESPN for coining the damn word.

So, I'll stop my rambling. I don't mean to derail the thread. Continue on, please
 
How do you know you got 99 percentile on step 1? Its not published anymore.
 
Making money is fine, I'm all for it. The only problem with your post is that investment banking is not just about making lots of money. Also, just saying you want to be an investment banker is somewhat generic (something the OP said). Do you want to want to work in debt or equity sales, fixed income sale, equity research, fixed income research, mergers and acquisitions, sales and trading, or does the life of an investment banking just sounds cool to you because they make money.

I'm comfortable with money. Hey, the more the better, but unlike you, I actually know what the path and journey is like and not I'm not just associating investment banking to money.

Why does the term i-bank and ibanking make me cringe? Simply because I never hear it, except from laypeople. I would venture to bet if you called a Goldman Sach associate an I-banker, he/she would immediately form a negative opinion of you and your character (just an assumption now) and realize you're obviously not in his clique.
So I cringe, because while currently trying to break into the industry (and not having much success, mind you) after once being a pre-med, when I hear all my pre-med friends say ibanking, I somewhat laugh (and cringe) because only outside of banking do people actually use that term.
It's like going to Virginia Tech's campus and yelling "Go VaTech". No one there says VaTech. Heck, they despise ESPN for coining the damn word.

So, I'll stop my rambling. I don't mean to derail the thread. Continue on, please

We're on the same page. Totally agree with you about the term.
 
It's just called banking, although like Iceman said, there're different divisions and industry focus. You probably should go for the Health Care division. Typically, entry level analysts (who are bachelor degreed) and associates (masters degreed or promoted analysts) start off as generalists and after they acquire the skills will be assigned to an industry or work group. As generalists, that means you likely will float between industries depending on what your function is (sales & trading, etc) just depending on deal flow. The work's feast or famine. If you're not on a deal, you'll get laid off.

Money's good. Job sucks. And after a while, you become a slave to the money. Lots of paperwork... the scut's worse than in medicine. Except that paperwork, sitting behind a computer, going to meetings, and getting on a plane is all that you do. You won't make a difference in anyone's life and don't really contribute to society. And the people you work with reflect that. Asides from the money, the job sounds more sexy than it really is. It's a geographically very limiting job, basically you gotta be in NYC. And in NYC, everyone's a "banker" and so it's not like you're gonna impress anyone at the bar. And if you're not a bar type, you're seriously excluded from the young professional circule... and if you're married, you won't see your spouse anyways. There's no ACGME, so there's no such thing as 80 hour work week. People average 120 and brag about "all-nighters". It's so stupid because from 9-5 pm, you basically just sit on your butt until your boss gets out of meetings to start assigning you work to do. You basically start doing work at 6 pm and if you're lucky you're out by 11 pm. During crunch time, you do "all-nighters" which include waiting for the Copy Center to xerox your books. And that's assuming they don't criticize the font and punctuation on your books. It's so ridiculous, but "bankers" pride themselves on their powerpoint slides and how professional they look. So don't get mad if they make you do it all over after you've spent hours working on it.

Anyways, if you're into that, you really should try for a big company that has a training machinery already in place given that you have zero background. You really should apply for an internship position. I don't know if you should go for an analyst position or associate's position. My personal pride would prevent me after getting an MD from going for an analyst position, but that's just me. Most analysts are in their early 20's. No family. Hungry for promotion. Willing to sacrifice everything for that year end performance bonus/promotion which means putting up with a lot of crap and cutting a lot of throat. Think about it like interns of old or lawyers fresh out of law school. The firm benefits from this type of behavior. Like lawyers, lots of cocaine and alcohol.

The good news is misery loves company, so when you go to "happy hour" at 11 pm (which is when happy hour is for bankers) you'll be around a lot people who sympathize with your misery. Good news is that you have an MD, which is an edge on paper. Bad news is you've got a lot of ground to cover and you're going to have to compensate for your shortcomings with hard work.

If you really really really want to do this, then go get an MBA which most people think is a waste of time anyways if you read the literature, but may be useful in your case because and MBA is really for career changers. The only problem is that most people who go for an MBA are those who have worked out of undergrad and economically benefits from the bump in pay when they go for an MBA. MD's make a lot of money anyways, so the change in pay from an MD to an MBA is less and so your ROI (return on investment) will be less.

Hopefully, I've been able to talk you out of it.

If you really want my opinion, you should go for a psychiatry residency. Then do all-cash, self-pay work catered to bankers in NYC. They sure need it.
 
How do you know you got 99 percentile on step 1? Its not published anymore.

And?...

Smart will get you hired. Unlike medicine, Wall Street and business in general don't value smart. Smart people don't get promoted. Everyone wants a smart person to work *for* them.
 
And?...

Smart will get you hired. Unlike medicine, Wall Street and business in general don't value smart. Smart people don't get promoted. Everyone wants a smart person to work *for* them.

I'm not concerned with what happens in business or medicine. I just think people who don't know the difference between a two digit score and a percentile shouldn't go around claiming they have 99th percentile on the USMLE.
 
It's just called banking, although like Iceman said, there're different divisions and industry focus. You probably should go for the Health Care division. Typically, entry level analysts (who are bachelor degreed) and associates (masters degreed or promoted analysts) start off as generalists and after they acquire the skills will be assigned to an industry or work group. As generalists, that means you likely will float between industries depending on what your function is (sales & trading, etc) just depending on deal flow. The work's feast or famine. If you're not on a deal, you'll get laid off.

Money's good. Job sucks. And after a while, you become a slave to the money. Lots of paperwork... the scut's worse than in medicine. Except that paperwork, sitting behind a computer, going to meetings, and getting on a plane is all that you do. You won't make a difference in anyone's life and don't really contribute to society. And the people you work with reflect that. Asides from the money, the job sounds more sexy than it really is. It's a geographically very limiting job, basically you gotta be in NYC. And in NYC, everyone's a "banker" and so it's not like you're gonna impress anyone at the bar. And if you're not a bar type, you're seriously excluded from the young professional circule... and if you're married, you won't see your spouse anyways. There's no ACGME, so there's no such thing as 80 hour work week. People average 120 and brag about "all-nighters". It's so stupid because from 9-5 pm, you basically just sit on your butt until your boss gets out of meetings to start assigning you work to do. You basically start doing work at 6 pm and if you're lucky you're out by 11 pm. During crunch time, you do "all-nighters" which include waiting for the Copy Center to xerox your books. And that's assuming they don't criticize the font and punctuation on your books. It's so ridiculous, but "bankers" pride themselves on their powerpoint slides and how professional they look. So don't get mad if they make you do it all over after you've spent hours working on it.

Anyways, if you're into that, you really should try for a big company that has a training machinery already in place given that you have zero background. You really should apply for an internship position. I don't know if you should go for an analyst position or associate's position. My personal pride would prevent me after getting an MD from going for an analyst position, but that's just me. Most analysts are in their early 20's. No family. Hungry for promotion. Willing to sacrifice everything for that year end performance bonus/promotion which means putting up with a lot of crap and cutting a lot of throat. Think about it like interns of old or lawyers fresh out of law school. The firm benefits from this type of behavior. Like lawyers, lots of cocaine and alcohol.

The good news is misery loves company, so when you go to "happy hour" at 11 pm (which is when happy hour is for bankers) you'll be around a lot people who sympathize with your misery. Good news is that you have an MD, which is an edge on paper. Bad news is you've got a lot of ground to cover and you're going to have to compensate for your shortcomings with hard work.

If you really really really want to do this, then go get an MBA which most people think is a waste of time anyways if you read the literature, but may be useful in your case because and MBA is really for career changers. The only problem is that most people who go for an MBA are those who have worked out of undergrad and economically benefits from the bump in pay when they go for an MBA. MD's make a lot of money anyways, so the change in pay from an MD to an MBA is less and so your ROI (return on investment) will be less.

Hopefully, I've been able to talk you out of it.

If you really want my opinion, you should go for a psychiatry residency. Then do all-cash, self-pay work catered to bankers in NYC. They sure need it.

This is good. I usually don't have the time or the effort to go into such details.

One point of note though, your desciption of banking life is that of a junior banker (analyst and first years of associate). It does get a little more interesting than that. Some of us actually like doing valuations, sitting in meetings and running excel macros. Then again, I am a bit masochistic.
 
Some of us actually like doing valuations, sitting in meetings and running excel macros. Then again, I am a bit masochistic.

IceMan-

Did I read correctly that you are trying to break into Investment Banking? ...Why?

I was an investment banking analyst for a few years before med school in NYC. It was the best of times and the worst of times (I'm in a Dickensian mood, it being Christmas Eve and all). Lowbudget hits some of the bad points, but doing deals is a lot of fun, even if you are just a junior team member. (Unlike medicine) investment banking is almost a complete meritocracy, some of the financial modeling can be challenging and creative, and large banks are an interesting place to view the world (as are large hospitals). In terms of senior bankers, in my opinion their technical skills wain and they become combination salesmen/financial strategists to CEOs/salesmen. Kind of cool if that's your thing (it wasn't mine), but of course it's lonely up there at the top.

To the OP, no offense, but the bulge bracket will not even look at your application, coming from an offshore med school with no business experience. You're too old to start as an analyst. Your only hope is to go for an MBA as others have said, but the likelyhood of you getting into a top program (a pre-req for banking) is slim. And if you can't get into a top MBA program, it's not worth the time or money (IMHO).

But this is America, land of opportunity! If medicine isn't your thing, 29 is not too late to start on a business career, you'll just have to be creative. I would suggest trying for entry-level jobs (yes, you may be competing with 22-year-olds) in some of the healthcare-related Fortune 500 companies (pharma, insurance, biotech) or trying to sneak into a small healthcare consultancy (again, you might have to start at the bottom). If you dig valuation and industry-wide financial analysis, you might be able to land an entry-level business development job (a sweet gig if you ask me). If you do well, you'll rise up quickly, and in a few years you may be able to transition into something more investment-banking-like (private equity, VC, equity analyst) in your early thirties.

A few last points:
1) The best excel modelers are second year analysts (that's right, 23 year olds).
2) Associates as a breed are useless unless they're direct promotes. IceMan, I wish you luck none-the-less if it is an associate-level job you seek.
3) Investment bankers usually just call themselves "bankers". It's kind of minimalist, implying that all other bankers (especially the commercial type) don't even deserve the title. Arrogant and cocky. I kind of like it.
 
IceMan-

Did I read correctly that you are trying to break into Investment Banking? ...Why?

Now that I get to work on some of the property acquisition here at work, I actually find that I enjoy the acquisition process and the negotiation that takes place. The only problem is that I'm seeing the legal side of the acquisitions and I would love to get involved in the financial and modeling side of the due diligence. If that means I have to slave over pitch books for the next few years before I start working on live deals, then so be it. (I could go into other reasons after reasons, but after spending my christmas break trying to perfect my Why MBA pitch, I really think I have already written my whys, ad-nausuem.)

I've spoke with a few junior bankers at firms, and the consensus is that a post-analyst associate is the best associate to work for, either the direct hire or MBA grad. A associate that hasn't gone through the analyst fire is a toss-up but all hope is not lost if the firm has an excellent training program and the associate can pick up the work. I know that as clueless as I might be on that first few weeks, I know it will not last too long. Heck, I was clueless when I first joined this company, and look at me now. Plus, I majored in Economics and a little finance, so a bankers work is not exactly unknown to me. It's just that I never thought I would want to enter the field. So when I should have been interviewing for internship spots, I was shadowing doctors. Now, it almost seemed like the door is closing fast, and I'm trying to keep it open.

Like I said though, I haven't had too much success. I realize that the most direct and practical way to enter the field is to earn a MBA from a reputable school. So far, that quest is not as successful as I would like. So, all this is just wishing thinking if I don't gain admission somewhere.
 
I'll chime in....

I've been working in the finance industry since undergrad (3 years) and am doing my post-bacc part time at night. I'll spare the details of why I am making the swtich, but for this person pretty much summed it up (more or less):

Money's good. Job sucks. And after a while, you become a slave to the money. Lots of paperwork... the scut's worse than in medicine. Except that paperwork, sitting behind a computer, going to meetings, and getting on a plane is all that you do. You won't make a difference in anyone's life and don't really contribute to society. And the people you work with reflect that. Asides from the money, the job sounds more sexy than it really is. It's a geographically very limiting job, basically you gotta be in NYC. And in NYC, everyone's a "banker" and so it's not like you're gonna impress anyone at the bar. And if you're not a bar type, you're seriously excluded from the young professional circule... and if you're married, you won't see your spouse anyways. There's no ACGME, so there's no such thing as 80 hour work week. People average 120 and brag about "all-nighters". It's so stupid because from 9-5 pm, you basically just sit on your butt until your boss gets out of meetings to start assigning you work to do. You basically start doing work at 6 pm and if you're lucky you're out by 11 pm. During crunch time, you do "all-nighters" which include waiting for the Copy Center to xerox your books. And that's assuming they don't criticize the font and punctuation on your books. It's so ridiculous, but "bankers" pride themselves on their powerpoint slides and how professional they look. So don't get mad if they make you do it all over after you've spent hours working on it.

and I am not the lone finhead in my post-bacc; there is another analyst and a trader in the program with me.

Finance is great to know, but to really make it in the industry, you need to do two things:

1 - Have the absolute most insane network in place, and
2 - Work 24/7 - this is not a joke

and at the end of the day, you didn't really do anything besides receive a paycheck (at least it's a good one); you didn't contribute to society (hence why I and two finheads are switching).

It's doable; I've met a couple of docs in finance, however, they were on the buy side covering health sectors. I'm sure sell side hires MDs, albeit I never met one. It's an uphill battle. You are old for an analyst role (most are 22 year olds), however, with persistence you should be okay.

Some of us actually like doing valuations, sitting in meetings and running excel macros. Then again, I am a bit masochistic.

I don't mind Excel, but meetings? You've got to be f-ing me...
 
Pavo - liked your comments. We have a couple of other ex-financial people in my med school class. Good luck with those premed classes. Must be tough making it out of the office on time, eh? Just to volunteer at a local hospital on Friday nights was tough for me. I used to duck into the visitor bathroom at 9pm (this is on Friday night, mind you) to reply to a few emails on my blackberry.

I'm sure sell side hires MDs, albeit I never met one. It's an uphill battle. You are old for an analyst role (most are 22 year olds), however, with persistence you should be okay.

There were 3 MDs in the healthcare group that I met at my firm. None of them completed a residency. One had an MBA, one had a JD. The one with just the MD had started as an analyst (at 26!). They had all gone to brand-name med schools too, not off-shore ones. To make it into the bulge bracket with an MD you need to be a baller.
 
Pavo - liked your comments. We have a couple of other ex-financial people in my med school class. Good luck with those premed classes. Must be tough making it out of the office on time, eh? Just to volunteer at a local hospital on Friday nights was tough for me. I used to duck into the visitor bathroom at 9pm (this is on Friday night, mind you) to reply to a few emails on my blackberry.

Thanks. The coursework isn't fluff, so it's tough with my current schedule. I've switched to development after my analyst stint, which affords me some flexibility - I don't travel much nowadays, and I can attend classes at night. My boss supports me and allows me to leave early on the days of class so long as I manage the projects and meet deadlines. Still, it isn't easy. I'm applying to B-School this year as well (part time), and I'm midway through my CFA exams so I don't just want to quit those (firm will pay for CFA exams and MBA).

But it's great having another analyst and a trader in my courses - we've bonded in the truest sense of the word fraternity (not the modern, drunken version). The trader was at Goldman for a decade and already has his MBA, but for him, well, he's done chasing dollars; the analyst was at Warburg (UBS) and he's no different - as cheesy as it sounds, he wants to come home at the end of day with the thoughts and feelings of actually making a difference. Flying through Excel, shooting out e-mails, and reviewing pitchbooks is cool in your early 20s, but after a couple of years, it gets very old (at least for us it did). I see the career track that I am on, and honestly, I am not too happy about it. Sure, it will pay well and I am set for life (comfortable), but am I really happy? For me, healthcare is the route that I'd like to take for the long haul.

Ugh. Volunteering. That is still being worked on. I volunteer with a couple of organizations, but I need to work on healthcare related volunteer work. I'll be spending my vacation this year overseas at a childrens hospital doing some international work, and I plan to start local volunteer work on the weekends later in the year. Quitting my job would be the easiest solution, but I'm not going to lie, they pay me well and take care of me, so I don't want to cut that off. Keep everything on good terms, and I can work under contract while in medical school (we have a few people who quit to back to school full time and they work part time under contract). Somewhere in all of this, I need to make a little more time for sleep and finding my better half. Not enough hours in a day.

To make it into the bulge bracket with an MD you need to be a baller.

Agreed. You might be able to get into a boutique with an MD, but still, many boutiques and middle market banks will recruit from lower 1st tier undergad/MBA programs over an MD. Get the grades i med school and network like a madman.
 
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