McKinsey

[Discontent]

So I am a practicing surgical subspecialist earning over $375,000 per year, but I hate my job, which I started just one year ago. I don't even want to wake up in the morning. I hold a master's in health care managment as well. I am strongly considering a career change and am looking at McKinsey. How hard would it be for me to get a job with McKinsey?

I would also be interested to hearing people's thoughts on what working there is like, what kind of compensation I can expect, what kind of lifestyle I will have, travel etc. My thought is that I could put in a few years there and then perhaps move in to something else as most McKinsey folks seem to. I am concerned about the likely drop in income though.

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[McKMD]

So I am a practicing surgical subspecialist earning over $375,000 per year, but I hate my job, which I started just one year ago. I don't even want to wake up in the morning. I hold a master's in health care managment as well. I am strongly considering a career change and am looking at McKinsey. How hard would it be for me to get a job with McKinsey?

I would also be interested to hearing people's thoughts on what working there is like, what kind of compensation I can expect, what kind of lifestyle I will have, travel etc. My thought is that I could put in a few years there and then perhaps move in to something else as most McKinsey folks seem to. I am concerned about the likely drop in income though.

Happy to talk about McKinsey and consulting in general. I made the transition after medical school, so the economics looked very different for me than they will for you, but I can speak pretty broadly about it.

Getting a job with McKinsey is difficult - the offer rate is very low, the amount of preparation for consulting interviews is high and the skills needed to succeed in consulting are vastly different than in medicine.

That being said, here's what you can expect if you do get a job:

1. A challenging environment with a peer group of physicians who have made the transition from medicine to business. The contacts you develop will be useful for transitioning to whatever you want to do in the future.

2. A serious pay cut at first that may work itself out over a few years. Starting associates make in the $140-170k range total compensation, with annual increases of 20%-40% depending on performance. It would take 3-4 years with good performance to make what you currently do now ($375k). That said, there's a lot of compensation that doesn't come in your structural salary, but rather benefits (e.g., a ridiculously generous 401k, the best possible health plan). Partnership (about six years out), though, starts in the high six figures and seven to eight figure salaries are common among partners and directors.

3. More importantly, you will have plenty of opportunities to leave the company for greener pastures ($). Spending 2 years at a top consultancy will open up doors in finance (PE, VC, hedge funds) and far better salaries. Most docs I know who have left the company went to finance.

4. Lifestyle is what you make it. A lot of people don't want to travel and therefore typically do not (depending on office and the type of work you want to do). If you're not averse to it, you could travel a lot - I've worked all around Europe (mostly in the UK, France, Germany) and the US out of choice. I typically worked 60-65 hours a week when I started, but no weekends.

Feel free to drop me a PM if you have any further questions.

 

[brianjurvick200]

So I am a practicing surgical subspecialist earning over $375,000 per year, but I hate my job, which I started just one year ago. I don't even want to wake up in the morning. I hold a master's in health care managment as well. I am strongly considering a career change and am looking at McKinsey. How hard would it be for me to get a job with McKinsey?

I would also be interested to hearing people's thoughts on what working there is like, what kind of compensation I can expect, what kind of lifestyle I will have, travel etc. My thought is that I could put in a few years there and then perhaps move in to something else as most McKinsey folks seem to. I am concerned about the likely drop in income though.

Not sure what Mck the other poster worked for, but let me give you the low-down on the Mck I worked for:

- First, don't count on making partner. You have a better chance of winning some state lotteries.
- Second, don't count on even being around for more than 2 years. There's a very strict up or out policy, and if/when there's an economic slowdown, that policy even gets more strict.
- 65 hours/week is the norm, but there will definitely be weeks of 80-90. It comes in waves. And yes, there will be weekends.
- I have never met a consultant who didn't regularly travel at mck (except maybe NJ office). And the travel is horrible. After the first 2 weeks, the novelty quickly wears off -- airport lines, delays, cancellations, hotels, etc. If you hate getting up now, wait until you have to get up every monday at 6:00am to stand in security lines for hours and catch a flight.
- so after all this, you probably won't be around for more than 2-3 years, at which point you'll have to find something else to do. It's not like PE firms and all the great jobs are just banging down your door. Even for ex-mck, consultants are a dime a dozen.

Good luck! I personally would never do it again.

 

[old_boy]

Happy to talk about McKinsey and consulting in general. I made the transition after medical school, so the economics looked very different for me than they will for you, but I can speak pretty broadly about it.

McKMD-

Thanks for sharing your candid thoughts on McKinsey. I'm curious - what are the demographics of the incoming MDs? Specifically, what % have done a residency vs. no residency and how old are they generally if they are starting alongside the newly minted MBAs? There's obviously a big difference between a 26-yr old right out of med school with no work experience and a mid-30s fellowship trained physician. Does McKinsey hire both for entry-level jobs?

 

[McKMD]

McKMD-

Thanks for sharing your candid thoughts on McKinsey. I'm curious - what are the demographics of the incoming MDs? Specifically, what % have done a residency vs. no residency and how old are they generally if they are starting alongside the newly minted MBAs? There's obviously a big difference between a 26-yr old right out of med school with no work experience and a mid-30s fellowship trained physician. Does McKinsey hire both for entry-level jobs?

Sure - Overall, I believe physicians are about 25% non-trained and 75% trained (i.e., one year of internship all the way to many years of academic practice).

When you start at the Firm, regardless of your degree of medical training, you start as an Associate. As far as the consulting firm is concerned, medical training does not imbue you with magical consulting skills, so everyone starts at the beginning. This can be tough for physicians who have been in medical practice, but the learning curve is steep for all docs (and probably more so for trained physicians, who often have to unlearn behaviors encouraged by the medical hierarchy).

That said, degree of training can have an impact on your exit options - it's easier to get certain jobs in business if you are trained.

"- so after all this, you probably won't be around for more than 2-3 years, at which point you'll have to find something else to do. It's not like PE firms and all the great jobs are just banging down your door. Even for ex-mck, consultants are a dime a dozen"

I would be interested to know if you're an MD. There aren't many MDs with McKinsey behind their name and I feel the brand value is significant if you are one. The last 5 MDs that I know who left the Firm for finance took associate to principle jobs with well known VC firms and hedge funds. There's an interesting profile in the NYT from late 2006 of a former McKinsey MD who went to ML (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/27/business/27richer.html). While Dr. Glassman isn't common amongst ex-McK consultants, he's a very real example of what MDs can do by doing a "business residency." None of these consulting firms will make you a success, but they are great at helping docs make the transition.

 

[beetlerum]

So I am a practicing surgical subspecialist earning over $375,000 per year, but I hate my job, which I started just one year ago. I don't even want to wake up in the morning. I hold a master's in health care managment as well. I am strongly considering a career change and am looking at McKinsey. How hard would it be for me to get a job with McKinsey?

I would also be interested to hearing people's thoughts on what working there is like, what kind of compensation I can expect, what kind of lifestyle I will have, travel etc. My thought is that I could put in a few years there and then perhaps move in to something else as most McKinsey folks seem to. I am concerned about the likely drop in income though.

Just out of curiosity, why are you fixated on McK? It's obviously really prestigious, but there are lots of other strategy consulting firms that offer great opps. I never know what to think when someone says they want to career change to a specific prestigious company. What would you think if someone wanted to switch from engineering to "Johns Hopkins neurosurgeon?"

 

[Pavo]

I don't even want to wake up in the morning

I like to sleep in as well.

My thought is that I could put in a few years there and then perhaps move in to something else as most McKinsey folks seem to

Okay, this happens everywhere you go. Turnover is high at all big business firms, be it consulting, finance, accouting, law, etc. Name it.

My question for you is...what do YOU want to do and WHY? Please explain the why to me. And elaborate on this as well:

why are you fixated on McK?

 

[Discontent]

Well to answer Pavo's question. I am interested in the move because:

-Insurance companies and hospitals are making money, hand over fist on the blood, sweat and tears of doctor's, while we work harder and harder for less reimbursement, face growing administrative hurdles from insurance companies and hospitals and face rising malpractice premiums
-The fact is, I think most physicians would agree that the way they practice medicine is not at all as they envisioned it when they signed up for medical school.
-I don't derive satisfaction from this type of work anymore.
-I am interested in affecting changes in health care at a larger level, nationally or internationally rather than one person at a time. I believe with a background in health care management and real clinical experience that I would offer a unique skill set to a managment consulting company.
-I want to be more challenged on a daily basis, I want to interact with intelligent people and have meaningul discussions rather than listening to people complain endlessly all day.
-I feel that my intellectual potential has not been fulfilled nor will it ever be in my current job and I am not interested in medical research.
-McKinsey is a great company that would teach me a lot about business and help make the transition out of clinical medicine, while also opening a lot of doors in the future.
-McKinsey also appears to be the most interested in hiring experienced clinicians.

 

[Pavo]

Discontent -

I think you're arguments are solid; you can really spin those well in an interview. I think this is the key though:

The fact is, I think most physicians would agree that the way they practice medicine is not at all as they envisioned it when they signed up for medical school.

I'm doing my post-bacc now at night, and I feel very sad for many of my peers. Some of them simply think that they are going to be doing some exciting, incredible work and receive celebrity status as a doctor. I don't think they know the half of being a doctor. I can't say that I fully know everything, but I've done my due diligence before signing up for my post-bacc, and I'm continuing to research further.

I think consulting is very similar in this respect (as well as other professions), and I fell for it coming out of undergrad. My first gig was a consulting firm, and I was wined and dined during the interview process. They flew me out to headquarters, I was picked up in a limo, and I was placed into a luxury suite. My God! I've made it! And I'm fresh out of college!

I was so thrilled to be flying all around the States, staying at first class hotels, meeting with business leaders from many different firms, etc. About one year in I was very disgruntled, and I saw the light - think 'Monkey Business' with a consulting spin. The flights, fancy hotels, free meals, everything, is just part of the compensation for a job that involves massive hours, ridiculous egos, and the privilage to be institutionally raped.

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to switch careers, and particularly, to get into consulting. Just make sure you do your due diligence before really considering it. Total compensation, lifestyle, the politics involved, and the sub-plethora of exit ops. should all factor into your consideration. It's not a bleak field by any means, but it isn't all rosy either. I think that you're on the right track though.

Best of luck.

 

[Glentui]

Hi,

I worked for The Boston Consulting Group for five years, and I agree with what the other posters have said. Your reasons for wanting to change are all good, and will go down well in your letter of application.

Three things:

First, firms like BCG and McK have a very tough admissions process. We were looking for people who could think a certain way - "structured thinking", "creative thinking", call it what you like - and if you don't display that, you won't make it in. Preparing assiduously for the case interview with books from publishers like Wetfeet can help. Practise, practise. No one will cut you any slack because you have a medical background.

Additionally - and for what it's worth - I was in the healthcare practice group at BCG, and opinions were divided about MDs. Their overall performance profile is not better than that of, say, chemistry PhDs (to name a specialty well-represented among my colleagues). Some partners say that medical school is about memorisation, not analysis, and say that MDs need to be trained to think analytically. (Note that any top strategy company will train you to think in a particular way in any case.)

Thirdly, if I had seen you in recruitment, I would have hammered you on your willingness to take direction. I interviewed an ex-Army guy in his 30s once and went over his willingness to take direction from a 26-yr old project leader (In the end, he convinced me, and I recommended him further.) But this will be a concern at interview.

Finally, may I give you some tactical advice? Don't start off interiewing with McK. You can improve your interview scores immensely with practice. Interview for jobs with strategy firms you don't want to work for until you start getting offers. Then go to McK - or to us

Regards,
Jana

 

[parto123]

Hi,

I worked for The Boston Consulting Group for five years, and I agree with what the other posters have said. Your reasons for wanting to change are all good, and will go down well in your letter of application.

Three things:

First, firms like BCG and McK have a very tough admissions process. We were looking for people who could think a certain way - "structured thinking", "creative thinking", call it what you like - and if you don't display that, you won't make it in. Preparing assiduously for the case interview with books from publishers like Wetfeet can help. Practise, practise. No one will cut you any slack because you have a medical background.

Additionally - and for what it's worth - I was in the healthcare practice group at BCG, and opinions were divided about MDs. Their overall performance profile is not better than that of, say, chemistry PhDs (to name a specialty well-represented among my colleagues). Some partners say that medical school is about memorisation, not analysis, and say that MDs need to be trained to think analytically. (Note that any top strategy company will train you to think in a particular way in any case.)

Thirdly, if I had seen you in recruitment, I would have hammered you on your willingness to take direction. I interviewed an ex-Army guy in his 30s once and went over his willingness to take direction from a 26-yr old project leader (In the end, he convinced me, and I recommended him further.) But this will be a concern at interview.

Finally, may I give you some tactical advice? Don't start off interiewing with McK. You can improve your interview scores immensely with practice. Interview for jobs with strategy firms you don't want to work for until you start getting offers. Then go to McK - or to us

Regards,
Jana

What type credentials do you need from med school to work at bcg (college, medschool, grades etc)?

 

[Glentui]

What type credentials do you need from med school to work at bcg (college, medschool, grades etc)?

If you are recruited from college you will go in as an associate. If you are recruited from a postgrad degree or with 2-3 years professional experience, you will almost certainly go in as a consultant (second step up). It is almost unheard of for BCG to hire anyone as a project leader (third step up).

You need to be in the top 5% of your class. The discipline is irrelevant. Extracurriculars should be strong (but are not vital).

Good luck!

 

[parto123]

If you are recruited from college you will go in as an associate. If you are recruited from a postgrad degree or with 2-3 years professional experience, you will almost certainly go in as a consultant (second step up). It is almost unheard of for BCG to hire anyone as a project leader (third step up).

You need to be in the top 5% of your class. The discipline is irrelevant. Extracurriculars should be strong (but are not vital).

Good luck!

Thanks. i was referring more to what credentials do you need coming from med school. Does it need to be a top school, top grades, or both? Does college factor in much?

 

[QuinnB]

Regarding the McK compensation (at my site) based on a slow path to partner:

Associate - this is where you start; work 60-70 hrs/wk typically for 1.5-2 yrs depending on how good you are; make 125k a year base with at least 20% additional year end bonus and a 20% signing bonus; also you get 12.5% of your base salary put into a 401K. The perks include travel, food, lodging, etc...all of which contribute to various point systems that allow you to upgrade on flights and/or travel for free in your spare time (3-5 wks vacation annually).

Engagement manager - Next 2 years; similar hours, more stress early on; 20-40% salary increase with other opportunities for bonus

Associate principal (junior partner) - Next 2 years; very tough with similar hours and a fair amount of travel; another 20-40% pay increase

Principle (senior partner) - 2 years later; a decent amount of travel; making 500k to 2 mill

Director - i've heard up to 8 figures, but never confirmed it; director at my summer site was making 2 mill

Keep in mind, you can create a niche in an industry that minimizes travel. Also, raises are annual and not necessarily correlated with promotion until the senior partner level. Moving up is not guaranteed, but if you're decent at what you do, you'll move up. I think the rigors of medical school train people well for this.

 

[Glentui]

Thanks. i was referring more to what credentials do you need coming from med school. Does it need to be a top school, top grades, or both? Does college factor in much?

The key thing is to stand out. Ideally, of course, you want top grades from a top school. I would think (though I am not on firm ground, having worked in Europe where universities are not routinely ranked) that a good school would count more than straight A pluses from a lesser school.

Remember that more recent achievements are weighted more than past achievements - your MCAT scores matter more than your SATs; the pedigree of your medical school matters more than where you went to college.

Hope this helps.

 

[mward04]

I was reading this thread when I got emailed about a job for an MD/MBA with consulting experience:
http://www.md-mba.org/experience.html#jobs

The brand of McKinsey, BCG etc. definitely carries its weight, particularly when you are a physician trying to establish yourself in a business world.

Mike

 

[DrJosephKim]

Are people still interested in healthcare consulting jobs at McKinsey these days? Considering all the upcoming changes related to healthcare reform, I would think that this would be a very exciting time to do some consulting in this area.

 

[balladevil]

There is definitely a lot of interesting work we're seeing on the consulting side... but more of the work actually relates to pharma now... Payor and provider work will probably ramp up more when Obama's changes are announced... its tough to do strategy work when you cant evaluate the environment that you will encounter.

 

[DrJosephKim]

Given that so much will be changing due to healthcare reform, I think there are healthcare consulting opportunities in many different areas ranging from health IT to biotech/pharma to managed care and much more. We will see some significant change over the next few years and we'll need consultants who can provide the proper guidance for organizations.