[mcat 1, mcat 2, mcat 3, ... Mcat n]

[imer]

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[osumc2014]

This is some sane advice:



I can't vouch for the poster, but doesn't it make sense? There seems to be an epidemic of people who approach the MCAT test like you get to keep taking mulligans when in fact you're probably just digging a deeper hole for yourself.

If you take the MCAT and aren't prepared as if you only get one chance at it you'll rarely get what you want, and most certainly get what you deserve.

lol what is the purpose of this post if I may ask

 

[imer]

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[BlueElmo]

lol what is the purpose of this post if I may ask

warning?

 

[osumc2014]

Yes you may ask.

But, because this is sdn, not everything needs to have a purpose.

Sometimes comments are posted.

makes sense...thanks for your advice

 

[Looking Glass]

This is some sane advice:



I can't vouch for the poster, but doesn't it make sense? There seems to be an epidemic of people who approach the MCAT test like you get to keep taking mulligans when in fact you're probably just digging a deeper hole for yourself.

If you take the MCAT and aren't prepared as if you only get one chance at it you'll rarely get what you want, and most certainly get what you deserve.

I can confirm, unofficially at least, that this is true. If you're taking the USMLE or COMLEX, you only get one shot and can retake it only if you fail (something that you definitely don't want to do). Also, if you retake and your score is lower, it will hurt you, especially if your MCAT isn't that great to being with. Moral of the story: do what you can to take it once and get it over with. Taking and retaking the MCAT without a substantial improvement will definitely not be favorable.

 

[Naijaba]

I agree with the original statement for three reasons:

1. Anybody who has taken the AAMC practice exams should know within +/- 5 points what their score will likely be on the actual test. If you are unsatisfied with your mean score, you should study more before the test. If you haven't taken the AAMC practice tests, then you are not taking the MCAT seriously and/or you don't understand how important it is for medical school admissions (do you really want to be a doctor?).
2. You CAN improve on the MCAT with time. The excuse "but I want to apply this year so I have to take the MCAT now" isn't a good mindset to approach medical school admissions.
2. The MCAT costs a lot of money.

 

[Slowpoke]

how else are curves going to be established?

 

[jw11]

I'm not a fan of all the retaking either.. It inflates the average scores and now applicants are forced to spend their time retaking/restudying whereas in the past it wouldn't be necessary. And medical schools aren't doing anyone any favors by ignoring past tests in lieu of recent high scores.

Just think, once upon a time, a 30 was par. Now par seems to be hovering around 32.

 

[TopSecret]

FYI, there are retake opportunities on medical licensing exams. But when you apply for whatever job, the application will usually ask if you had to re-take those exams for whatever reason. It's usually seen as a demerit.

Also, MCAT VR and USMLE Step 1 performance are correlated.

Relationships of Reading, MCAT, and USMLE Step 1 Test Results for Medical Students



"Students (N = 730) took the Nelson-Denny Reading Test (current forms G or H) during orientation to medical school. Stepwise regression analyses showed the Nelson-Denny Reading Vocabulary, Comprehension, and Rate were significant predictors of MCAT (taken prior to admission to medical school) verbal reasoning. Reading Vocabulary was a significant predictor of USMLE Step 1 score (taken at the end of the second year of medical school). Pearson correlation analyses demonstrated significant positive relationships among the various subtests of the three instruments. The significant positive relationships between reading test performance and the MCAT and USMLE for medical students have been shown across regions of the country and two decades of time. An extremely modest investment of financial and time resources in a reading test can yield disproportionate dividends for medical programs."

 

[DendWrite]

I'm not a fan of all the retaking either.. It inflates the average scores and now applicants are forced to spend their time retaking/restudying whereas in the past it wouldn't be necessary. And medical schools aren't doing anyone any favors by ignoring past tests in lieu of recent high scores.

Just think, once upon a time, a 30 was par. Now par seems to be hovering around 32.

I don't really think that this is so much due to retakes as it is applicants better preparing themselves for the test. According to AAMC data (http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2008/2008mcatgpa.htm) there was an increase of 1.4 (5%) in the total mean matriculated students' MCAT scores, yet there was also a .1 increase in mean GPA (3%). Though the percentage increase in MCAT scores was higher, I'd argue that increasing from a 29 to a 31 on the MCAT is much easier to achieve through preparation than increasing one's GPA from 3.5 to 3.6 would be.

As to the original post, while I agree with the sentiment, I think that it only applies to people who are honestly flippant about the test and just take it blindly (most of which probably aren't on SDN). A lot of people prepare for the test and just aren't great at test taking, or freeze, or think they did much better than they thought and end up retaking. For quite a few intelligent people who just aren't great at test-taking, I'd say that "getting what they deserve" (presumably not getting an admit to medical school) because they didn't score high enough is a little harsh. I think medical schools are of the same mindset: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2008/mcatgpa-grid-3yrs-app-accpt-raceeth.htm -- take a look at the percentage acceptance for students with a 3.8 to 4.0 GPA but 24-26 MCAT score (something that would almost universally be considered a score that MUST be retaken on SDN). In the end, it's just a test -- a very important one that deserves respect, especially if your GPA isn't quite where you want, but everyone has a different situation, and if you retake the MCAT, it's not like you are barred from med school.

 

[ZeusonRoids]

Umm this is bull****...I took 2x and:

I was invited on 9 interviews
Went on 6 of those interviews
and got accepted to 5 schools

I really dont know what this person is talking about. MOST of the people I am living with this year (3/4) have completed the mcat 2x

 

[rocketbooster]

yea, med schools dont care if you retake it 2-3x. after that, though, im sure looks bad. of course, one testing only will look better but they dont care that much to retake it. they just want your mcat to be in the range of their school's average.

i know tons and tons of med students, too, and more than 50% of them retook it.

 

[jw11]

I don't really think that this is so much due to retakes as it is applicants better preparing themselves for the test.

This could be true. I guess one way to find out would be to see how many more people are taking the MCAT/yr while normalizing for how many more people apply/yr.

Also this is pure speculation, but I think most medical schools just take the highest or latest MCAT score (give the applicant the benefit of the doubt).

Edit: I can't wrap my mind around 'better preparation' since the MCAT is a percentile test.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Moving to MCAT

 

[meliora27]

Umm this is bull****...I took 2x and:

I was invited on 9 interviews
Went on 6 of those interviews
and got accepted to 5 schools

I really dont know what this person is talking about. MOST of the people I am living with this year (3/4) have completed the mcat 2x

Zeus,

Congrats on the multiple acceptances, that's awesome! Do you mind sharing some insights on tackling the beast for round II?

 

[ZeusonRoids]

Zeus,

Congrats on the multiple acceptances, that's awesome! Do you mind sharing some insights on tackling the beast for round II?

Well...I don't think I am the guy to give MCAT advice. When I took it the first time I got a 7 in vr which was like 3 pts below what I had practiced at (I took 3 practice tests and got a two 10s and one 11 on the vr). I studied for about a month the first time around and then the second time around I only studied over spring break (about 2 weeks). I did this because I KNEW what I should be getting and that the first time was just a fluke...so I just walked into the test with a swagger and knew I was going to score between a 31-33. I ended up getting an 11 on the vr the second time around

You prolly don't want to take MCAT advice from someone who did that (or only got a 32 for that matter)...

Interview advice and secondary essay advice is different...you always want to take that advice from a guy like me who got multiple acceptances with an "averageish" MCAT/gpa

 

[imer]

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[imer]

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[RogueUnicorn]

Wow this is so off-base. About 80% of MCAT test takers each year are taking it for the first time (AAMC retester data). Additionally, if you look at the data for any given subsection the chance of ANY improvement for those who initially score an 8 ranges from 1 in 3 to 1 in 5, obviously there are TONS AND TONS who go down in score.

There are certainly legitimate reasons to retake, but it is not the norm for med students.

Anyway I expected some of those who retested would be defensive about the post. In fact I expected TONS AND TONS to be defensive.

there might be a sampling error... while about 1 in 4 might see an increase in score at the retest, they are probably much more likely to get in than the other three, changing the ratio at med school.

 

[Substance P]

While I agree that the MCAT should be approached in a manner that creates a mindset to only take it once, I also feel that there are a number of other factors that can contribute to necessitating a retake. It could possibly be testing anxiety, an illness, emotional duress about family or loved ones, etc. etc.

Med schools aren't going to immediately toss an app if the applicant has taken the exam twice, but I'm sure they will look for improvement upon taking the exam a second time. So flagrantly signing up for retakes is a mistake, but if someone has taken the exam and feels that a retake is in order then with adequate preparation and after focusing on the weaknesses they encountered the first time, a second go can be very beneficial for some applicants. At least that's my take.

 

[DendWrite]

Wow this is so off-base. About 80% of MCAT test takers each year are taking it for the first time (AAMC retester data). Additionally, if you look at the data for any given subsection the chance of ANY improvement for those who initially score an 8 ranges from 1 in 3 to 1 in 5, obviously there are TONS AND TONS who go down in score.

Where did you get this data? From the charts that I found (http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/admissionsadvisors/examstatistics/retester/start.htm), here's the +/- percentages upon retake for one who scores an 8-8-8 (24 composite) initially:

48% verbal improves by at least 1 point
30% verbal decreases by at least 1 point
22% verbal score doesn't change

57% BS improves by at least 1 point
18% BS decreases by at least 1 point
24% BS score doesn't change

41% PS improves by at least 1 point
27% PS decreases by at least one point
30% PS stays the same

According to that chart the chances for improvement are greater than what you stated. Also, I'm confused as to the point you are trying to make. Yes, some people who retake after getting an 8 on each section have their score go down, but are you suggesting that they should apply to allopathic schools with a 24? One can certainly increase one's odds of scoring higher with better preparation, taking AAMC practice exams, taking a course, etc. Given that you don't have information about the people whose scores went down, you can't assume that these were people who put in work to improve their scores. Also, while you could argue that everyone's improvement is left solely up to chance, most of the people who post in the MCAT forum who see a consistent improvement in their AAMC practice exams scores would indicate that once can in fact improve their score through study, ESPECIALLY when one is starting from a 24. Improvements from a 33 or 34 are more difficult. But, most people with a 33 or 34 wouldn't be retaking anyway.

Anyway I expected some of those who retested would be defensive about the post. In fact I expected TONS AND TONS to be defensive.

I haven't taken the MCAT yet. But I object to the idea that those who take the MCAT unprepared "most certainly get what [they] deserve." Regardless of a correlation between MCAT and Step 1 scores, what you get on the MCAT says little to nothing about your capacity to be a responsible, caring clinician. It's a test. Once you get into med school, people could care less what your MCAT score was. I'm opposed to what I sense as the belief that a high MCAT score somehow "entitles" or "proves" one's capabilities as a future physician. It's one piece of the puzzle, but it's by no means confirmatory on its own.

You say that "There are certainly legitimate reasons to retake, but it is not the norm for med students." What are some of these legitimate reasons?

Basically, I don't understand what you are getting at. All I can get from your post is "do things as well as you can the first time you do them." Yes, good advice, but sometimes even though people try to do so, they fail. Stuff happens. If I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, please let me know. I'm just a bit confused as to where you are going with this.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

a high mcat score doesn't predicate a succesful career as a physician, but it certainly demonstrates an understanding of the basic sciences at a high level, a requirement for MDs.

 

[imer]

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[DendWrite]

sorry but this is too long to read.

top line: if you look at the retester data you'll see that retesters score poorer than first timers (look up scaled score table). For example, only about 1 in 5 retesters scored more than 8 (vs 3 in 10 from scaled score data). I don't think people who retake are putting in less time than first timers in preparation. You are over thinking this whole thing. The message is simply what I quoted.

Could you post a link? I still can't find it.