Matching as a D.O.

[slyguysam]

I am currently a 4th year student at a D.O. school and am looking for input for my competitiveness as an applicant for Neurosurgery.

Board Scores- Step 1 - 248 Step 2 - 247

Grades - solid GPA (>3.0), but not spectacular. I am not in the Top 10% of my class.

Research- I am currently submitting two neurosurgery manuscripts to the Journal of Spinal Disorders and Techniques for publication. I also am getting LORs from a well respected Spine specialist and Chairman from a Top 20 Neurosurgery program.

Extracurriculars- I have extensive leadership experience with the AMA-MSS. I have held multiple local and national leadership positions. I was president of my chapter and earned my school a distinction as finalist for chapter of the year (impressive as a DO school in the AMA)

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks.

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[james2333]

I am currently a 4th year student at a D.O. school and am looking for input for my competitiveness as an applicant for Neurosurgery.

Board Scores- Step 1 - 248 Step 2 - 247

Grades - solid GPA (>3.0), but not spectacular. I am not in the Top 10% of my class.

Research- I am currently submitting two neurosurgery manuscripts to the Journal of Spinal Disorders and Techniques for publication. I also am getting LORs from a well respected Spine specialist and Chairman from a Top 20 Neurosurgery program.

Extracurriculars- I have extensive leadership experience with the AMA-MSS. I have held multiple local and national leadership positions. I was president of my chapter and earned my school a distinction as finalist for chapter of the year (impressive as a DO school in the AMA)

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Neurosurgery is extremely competitive, sometimes its just a crap shoot. There are MD students with 250s and 260s from last year that failed to match. Have you arranged any Sub-I's or are you currently doing them? Those really are your best bet. Ideally you need 4 letters, all from neurosurgeons. Chairmen>Program directors> Attendings> private neurosurgeon. Your best bet as a DO is to match where you do your Sub-I. Ideally you should have atleast 3-4 Sub-Is at different MD programs before November

 

[Yoyomama88]

This doesnt really fit with NRMP 2011 data. Board scores of 220-240 = 80 percent chance of matching for US MD students.

But I think matching as DO in an ACGME program is really difficult. Apply to all the DO programs for sure.

 

[Silent Cool]

I am currently a 4th year student at a D.O. school and am looking for input for my competitiveness as an applicant for Neurosurgery.

Board Scores- Step 1 - 248 Step 2 - 247

Grades - solid GPA (>3.0), but not spectacular. I am not in the Top 10% of my class.

Research- I am currently submitting two neurosurgery manuscripts to the Journal of Spinal Disorders and Techniques for publication. I also am getting LORs from a well respected Spine specialist and Chairman from a Top 20 Neurosurgery program.

Extracurriculars- I have extensive leadership experience with the AMA-MSS. I have held multiple local and national leadership positions. I was president of my chapter and earned my school a distinction as finalist for chapter of the year (impressive as a DO school in the AMA)

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks.

A guy from Touro-CA matched ACGME Neurosurgery last year at LSU I think. I'd probably give him an email.

 

[bleeker10]

One of my classmates from LECOM-E matched at the University of Rochester. He was top of our class, crushed boards, networked like crazy, away rotations, etc.

 

[slyguysam]

Thanks for the responses. I am noticing that the number is DO's matching in MD Neurosurgery programs is gradually increasing. My chief resident last year during my neuro rotation was DO and it was at an MD program. I feel that my boards and extracurriculars make me competitive as an applicant, I'm just still anxious that it's not going to be enough.

 

[james2333]

Thanks for the responses. I am noticing that the number is DO's matching in MD Neurosurgery programs is gradually increasing. My chief resident last year during my neuro rotation was DO and it was at an MD program. I feel that my boards and extracurriculars make me competitive as an applicant, I'm just still anxious that it's not going to be enough.

I think your scores and research experiences are great, the problem is that the majority of neurosurgery applicants have similar, if not better experiences. All things being equal a program will most likely rank an MD student higher than a DO student. Are there DO students that match each year? Absolutely and they are killer applicants.

That's why I asked if you've done any sub-Is. Your best bet at matching is through your Sub-I's. If you apply to a program without knowledge of your capabilities they will unlikely rank you compared to an MD applicant.

I will tell you that your average MD applicant will have similar board scores and research experiences in the top 10% w/ AOA. On top of this, they set up 3 Sub-I's and get letters of recommendation from Chairmen at different programs. They also have a home department that will usually call other chairmen weeks before the rank lists are due and during the interview season. As a DO you won't really have that advantage. This is why your sub-Is are important. Hopefully you have several of these set up already and are getting LORs from chairmen (4 letters) . If your letters aren't from neurosurgeons (Chairmen>PD>Attendings>Private) then they won't be read/considered. Don't rely on one letter from one Chairmen. There really isn't a "top 20 neurosurgery program." If you ask any resident there really is no such ranking. Once you have the numbers and grades its all about your Letters of Recommendations and how well the programs know you (based on Sub-Is)

 

[james2333]

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[slyguysam]

I think your scores and research experiences are great, the problem is that the majority of neurosurgery applicants have similar, if not better experiences. All things being equal a program will most likely rank an MD student higher than a DO student. Are there DO students that match each year? Absolutely and they are killer applicants.

That's why I asked if you've done any sub-Is. Your best bet at matching is through your Sub-I's. If you apply to a program without knowledge of your capabilities they will unlikely rank you compared to an MD applicant.

I will tell you that your average MD applicant will have similar board scores and research experiences in the top 10% w/ AOA. On top of this, they set up 3 Sub-I's and get letters of recommendation from Chairmen at different programs. They also have a home department that will usually call other chairmen weeks before the rank lists are due and during the interview season. As a DO you won't really have that advantage. This is why your sub-Is are important. Hopefully you have several of these set up already and are getting LORs from chairmen (4 letters) . If your letters aren't from neurosurgeons (Chairmen>PD>Attendings>Private) then they won't be read/considered. Don't rely on one letter from one Chairmen. There really isn't a "top 20 neurosurgery program." If you ask any resident there really is no such ranking. Once you have the numbers and grades its all about your Letters of Recommendations and how well the programs know you (based on Sub-Is)

I spent the last 8 weeks working at what I would consider my "home" institution working on research as well as helping out on the service (mostly seeing patients in clinic). This program also has graduated 2 D.O.'s in the last 7 years. I have 3 sub-I's set up over the next 3 months at Loyola, University of Illinois-Chicago, and University of Illinois-Peoria. These programs are ones in which I know I have classmates who have matched in a surgical field and/or are in a surgical fellowship. I currently have 2 letters (1 chairman) and will have four by the time these rotations are over. Do you think it matters that programs will be receiving these letters after the time applications open on September 15?

 

[james2333]

I spent the last 8 weeks working at what I would consider my "home" institution working on research as well as helping out on the service (mostly seeing patients in clinic). This program also has graduated 2 D.O.'s in the last 7 years. I have 3 sub-I's set up over the next 3 months at Loyola, University of Illinois-Chicago, and University of Illinois-Peoria. These programs are ones in which I know I have classmates who have matched in a surgical field and/or are in a surgical fellowship. I currently have 2 letters (1 chairman) and will have four by the time these rotations are over. Do you think it matters that programs will be receiving these letters after the time applications open on September 15?

It def. sounds like you're on the right track. Just keep up what you're doing. You have solid stats on paper. I'm sure you'll do very well on your sub-Is and secure great letters. Just keep up the great work. Neurosurgery is extremely competitive as is. Its hard to predict who will match and who won't, especially as a DO. Most DO students will forfeit the MD match and go DO (Since its earlier). I think this is part of the reason why you don't see as many DOs because of the risk.

If you get letters after the September 15 ERAS submission date just MAKE SURE you forward your letters to each program you apply to (email the residency coordinator of each program). If a program downloads your application and you upload a document after the initial download, they will have to redownload your entire application to get the letter. I'm not sure if they receive a notice if new files/letters are uploaded. I think you should def. send your letters to the residency coordinators as you get your letters in past the Sept 15 ERAS date. Also bring a copy with you to your interviews just in case.

I hope this helps.
good luck!!

 

[deleted564680]

Since this post applies to me as well, I thought I would reply
I am also a D.O. student going for an M.D. neurosurgery spot
Class rank - 3/169
SSP (Honor society)
Step 1: 256 Step 2: 268
Two away rotations (MD) with 2 chairman letters.

My questions are 1. Would they really dismiss a D.O. if he/she is highly qualified? and 2. I read the post about having all 4 letters be by neurosurgeons or "they won't get read." I had heard that you want 1 to be outside of the specialty you are going to show that you are liked in others fields as well so I was curious about which is true. 3. Scale of 1-100 - my chances of matching lol (I know this is highly variable)

 

[NSurgOrBust]

Since this post applies to me as well, I thought I would reply
I am also a D.O. student going for an M.D. neurosurgery spot
Class rank - 3/169
SSP (Honor society)
Step 1: 256 Step 2: 268
Two away rotations (MD) with 2 chairman letters.

My questions are 1. Would they really dismiss a D.O. if he/she is highly qualified? and 2. I read the post about having all 4 letters be by neurosurgeons or "they won't get read." I had heard that you want 1 to be outside of the specialty you are going to show that you are liked in others fields as well so I was curious about which is true. 3. Scale of 1-100 - my chances of matching lol (I know this is highly variable)

From the chairman of neurosurgery at my school and uncleharvey.com, your letters should be only chairmen or neurosurgeons. You don't want to give the programs an impression that you're interested in a different specialty.

 

[slyguysam]

So I have 15 interview offers (11 MD scheduled, 3 DO) up to this point. I still have a handful of programs that I am waiting on. Looking at the charting outcomes, I really don't fit nicely into any of their categories. I have had a number of residents on my sub-i tell me that they did 10-18 interviews and those that did over 15 felt that it was too much and that over 10 was "safe". I'm considering foregoing the DO match at this point. If I do not get any more interviews would it be a bad idea to go ahead with entering the MD match?

 

[Jamiu22]

being a DO, I think you should go to as many Interviews as feasible...don't think anything Is safe - even with great scores and research...you are still somewhat considered not part of the "boys club"...so more interviews would better for you...as long it's not more than 20..imho...good luck...and I think you'll probably match.

 

[slyguysam]

I definitely agree with your sentiment. I don't think there is a safe number in neurosurgery. I do not feel safe with 11 interviews. I would have a 12th but one program's dates conflicted with all other interview dates I already have scheduled so I couldn't schedule it. I'm hoping for at least two more offers. If I reach 13 I'll start to feel a lot more comfortable but I know that's not even a guarantee. Do you know anyone who had double digit interviews and ended up not matching?

 

[Jamiu22]

Yeah, there was a guy who posted on Uncle Harvey post match this year, who had like 250/260 (step1/2), 8 pubs, and >5 publications who didn't match, and I strongly believe that that was an anomaly or the dude was extremely weird... it could very well happen. Per the matching outcome in 2011 (the dude was almost guaranteed a match).... so yeah, nothing is safe.... especially for a DO applicant to an ACGME program or someone from a lower/unranked med school - there's a slight elitism

On another note, I recently met an ACGME trained DO Neurosurgeon who is currently a clinical instructor at a reputable ACGME program - he's at the same time completing his fellowship; dude is very well respected among his peers at said institution... so I say with 11 interviews scheduled, your chances are good... but would be better with more interviews lined up, if you have the opportunity. Good luck man.. Hope to be in ur shoes next year with interviews...

 

[wjs010]

I am curious...very curious. If one were to have OP's scores, what would be the chances of an AOA Neurosurg residency? Is a fellowship necessary after neurosurg. residency?

 

[deleted564680]

I am curious...very curious. If one were to have OP's scores, what would be the chances of an AOA Neurosurg residency? Is a fellowship necessary after neurosurg. residency?

I can tell you that AOA residencies are heavily weighted on your rotation. Most places won't consider you or even interview unless you rotate. A few places are more "into scores" than others but usually 600+ put you in the discussion for a good chance at a spot. However, each year it gets more and more competitive...10 years ago there were 29ish schools and 15-18 spots and now there are 37 schools and 12ish spots. Neurosurgery AOA or AGCME is competitive no matter how you look at it.
As far as having the OP's scores, they are good scores but your application is more than just scores - especially for AGCME.
As a current 4th year going through the process now with great scores - see my above post #11, I can tell you it is NOT easy no matter what. If you want more personalized info you can PM me anytime. I'm sure slyguy will comment as well on his experience.

As far as fellowships go, that really depends on where you want to practice (private, academic, etc) and if you want to specialize honestly. Not everyone does a fellowship so no I wouldn't say it's "necessary" but it's becoming more and more common that big hospital groups and academic centers want "fellowship-trained" so they can advertise it to their patients.

 

[slyguysam]

Scores will get you through the original cutoff pile, but what will ultimately get you the interview are your research experiences and your letters. I have been very fortunate to have received very strong LORs from well known individuals in the field and this has definitely been the reason I have received as many interviews as I have over other people. At my last interview one of my letter writers was very well known and beloved by the department and they seemed very interested in me because he had great things to say about me. So yes, strong board scores are really important but so is research, especially if you are a DO. MD applicants can get away with scant research and okay LORs if they have the scores, but you cannot as a DO.

 

[DrPapa]

The most important thing is your away rotations if you are a DO. That goes for acgme or aoa. Research may or may not matter. It depends on the program. Grades and scores get you past the cutoff but no further. Every program is looking for something different. You need to be lucky enough to find the one that sees you as a fit. Yes, some of it is dumb luck.

Both of the hopeful applicants from this thread seem very well qualified, much more so than I ever was.

 

[wjs010]

The most important thing is your away rotations if you are a DO. That goes for acgme or aoa. Research may or may not matter. It depends on the program. Grades and scores get you past the cutoff but no further. Every program is looking for something different. You need to be lucky enough to find the one that sees you as a fit. Yes, some of it is dumb luck.

Both of the hopeful applicants from this thread seem very well qualified, much more so than I ever was.

Is the neurosurgery residency really 7 years? I thought the ortho sounded tough. 7 years sounds like hell.

 

[Jamiu22]

Is the neurosurgery residency really 7 years? I thought the ortho sounded tough. 7 years sounds like hell.

Yups... all programs in the country are really 7yrs long! It's definitely not for the faint of hearts.

 

[DrPapa]

7 years of doing what you love is much shorter than 3 years of doing something that makes you miserable. Also, consider that one of those years is a "research year," which can be whatever you make it, and it doesn't seem so bad.

 

[nads1219]

I'm also a DO student, looking to match into neurosurg.
I'm realistic about the fact that I'm not competitive enough for ACGME (average USMLE step 1), but am still desperately seeking a future in neurosurgery (AOA or ACGME). Do programs look at step 2 scores? I have two strong letters of recommendation from neurosurgeons, and honors on a neurosurgery rotation early in my third year (not sure how much that matters).
Being at a DO school, my school didn't have any home opportunities for neurosurgery research. I'm considering either a month rotation in research, or a gap year so I have time to get published. Thoughts?
Since I'm already half way through my third year, and wasn't planning on falling in love with neurosurgery I feel like I'm playing catch up and banking on my Sub-I rotations. Any advice greatly appreciated!

 

[DrPapa]

Great Sub-I's will make up for mediocre stats.

Some programs look at step 2, some don't

 

[slyguysam]

It's critical if you're going through the DO match that you schedule rotations with the programs you want to go to. In my opinion, if you're looking at DO programs, I would look at Carilion Clinic and St. John's Providence. Those are two really strong programs that would give you pretty equivalent training to an ACGME program. If you're going to try the ACGME route, then be realistic at where you do your sub-I's (aka don't try and go to Mayo, Barrow, etc.) I would go for the smaller programs because they are more likely to give you legitimate consideration if you do a great job. Best of luck and message me if you have any more questions.

 

[THH]

It's critical if you're going through the DO match that you schedule rotations with the programs you want to go to. In my opinion, if you're looking at DO programs, I would look at Carilion Clinic and St. John's Providence. Those are two really strong programs that would give you pretty equivalent training to an ACGME program. If you're going to try the ACGME route, then be realistic at where you do your sub-I's (aka don't try and go to Mayo, Barrow, etc.) I would go for the smaller programs because they are more likely to give you legitimate consideration if you do a great job. Best of luck and message me if you have any more questions.

Sly, did you rotate at PCOM by chance? If so, what did you think of their program?

 

[slyguysam]

Sorry, I did not rotate through PCOM, but I have heard from faculty that they have a decent program with the opportunity to rotate at the University of Toronto.

 

[BurghStudent]

A student from UNECOM matched at Loma Linda

http://lomalindahealth.org/health-c...-care-professionals/residency/residents.page?

 

[DrPapa]

Current programs that have DOs are Loma Linda, LSU Shreveport, LSU New Orleans, Rochester, Mizzou & Kansas. UC Davis & MUSC have graduated DOs in the past.

 

[Silent Cool]

Is the neurosurgery residency really 7 years? I thought the ortho sounded tough. 7 years sounds like hell.

Yes.

University of WA is 8.

enjoy