Mask question

[bravotwozero]

The irony is that most of us can't wear MAGA stuff out in public. We might be verbally harassed, assaulted, or could lose our jobs. The left touts #tolerance and #diversity but practice just the opposite. For them diversity is all about skin color, but diversity of thought is forbidden.

who is this 'left'? does anyone who disagree with you on any issue become part of this mythical 'left'? I've seen lots of people wear MAGA stuff in Texas, and none of them got harassed.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Is engaging in commerce truly a human right? Who decides this? Are stores and airlines allowed to require mask use? Or would that be a violation of other's human rights to commerce? Isn't it a human right not to be infected by others? Who has determined what is a human right? How about going naked? Not a human right? Should there be any limitations on the human right of leisure activity; some leisure activity could cause direct harm to others? How should this be decided?

Any business can require masks for customers to shop there. I have no problem with that.

I actually have no problem with nudity, but most stores would prevent nude people from shopping there.

Leisure activity that directly harms others is not what we are talking about. That's usually manslaughter, assault, or murder.

 

[e30ftw]

Then why have any medical care at all? Certainly we should not be trying to decrease our infant mortality rate; ultimate survival of the fittest.

More fallacies... reductio ad absurdum. not interested in being drawn into this type of discussion.

 

[GeneralVeers]

who is this 'left'? does anyone who disagree with you on any issue become part of this mythical 'left'? I've seen lots of people wear MAGA stuff in Texas, and none of them got harassed.

I can't name specific groups because I've been threatened on here with serious consequences. It's the people who cancel anyone who disagrees or questions their movement, tears down statues, threatens public officials. Certain Minnesota Congresswomen come to mind.

 

[namethatsmell]

Why do we need laws about people flashing people in public? Sounds less deadly and less of a strain on the economy and health system than ignoring masking rules to prevent SARS-CoV-19.

Agreed with @namethatsmell that the US is far from the most free country in the world, unless one defines that totally by firearm regulations.

In fact, Denmark once harnessed the nexus of public nudity and traffic rules to create a project to further the greater good:

Topless Danes call a halt to speeding

Danish authorities have an internet campaign featuring topless models urging male motorists to slow down, writes Patrick Logue…

www.irishtimes.com

There's also an...informative...youtube video of a news story about the intersection of public nudity and Danish traffic laws if you search for it...I would link it here, but I think it may violate SDNs TOS as said news story is very, revealing.

 

[miacomet]

Any business can require masks for customers to shop there. I have no problem with that.

I actually have no problem with nudity, but most stores would prevent nude people from shopping there.

Leisure activity that directly harms others is not what we are talking about. That's usually manslaughter, assault, or murder.

How about sexual abuse of minors? Some people consider that a leisure activity. I would consider that something that should be illegal. Unlike SARS-CoV-2, it isn't potentially fatal, though. So why ban it?

 

[miacomet]

I can't name specific groups because I've been threatened on here with serious consequences. It's the people who cancel anyone who disagrees or questions their movement, tears down statues, threatens public officials. Certain Minnesota Congresswomen come to mind.

Wow. It seems like there have been plenty of people on the right who do the same. Some peaceful protesters have been harassed and attacked by armed militia members. Others have been victims of vehicular assault by right wing people. How is that OK? And how is this a left wing issue?

 

[miacomet]

More fallacies... reductio ad absurdum. not interested in being drawn into this type of discussion.

OK, so who decides who is disposable? It's interesting you consider this a particularly absurd talking point, because for most of history children were considered not particularly valuable. They aren't economically productive, and until fairly recently not a lot of effort was put into infant and child mortality. So while you consider this absurd, this was fairly common for most of human history.

Who decides who is disposable? You? Why not kids? They certainly aren't productive. They can easily be replace since they haven't achieved anything unique, unlike many elders or middle-aged folks.

 

[e30ftw]

I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say but it sounds like you need a beer or something.

 

[namethatsmell]

The masks v pants comparison is a classic logical fallacy and accurately represents those who value security over freedom.

The thread hit its high point when a few posters realized the inevitability of mortality and the benefits of natural selection.

Actually, it's surprising that conditions are such that people even feel the need to try to make these comparisons in the US. It seems abundantly clear from other first-world countries that have strong masking (and distancing) policies and suffering some inconveniences helps economies and societies open faster and "normal" life to resume to a much greater degree than what we're seeing here.

 

[deleted480308]

This sounds like libertarianism.

On it's face I've always found libertarianism to seem logical and reasonable. It's about being free. "You don't infringe my rights and I won't infringe yours." Sounds great. I even went to a bunch of their meetings in college. I really wanted it to work out and there are certain aspects of libertarianism I can still get behind. Yet, like communism, once you start getting into the actual details I find things run off the tracks pretty quickly.

Like what is the common ground between what one libertarian wants vs another? In my experience, it usually boils down to what one libertarian feels he/she needs from the government to maximally benefit his/her direct needs without the consideration of others. For example, you say you want basic traffic safety directions but if I'm a libertarian living in northern Idaho I sure as hell don't need or want those rules messing up my roads or my day (oh but I will need somebody to build and maintain those roads and would appreciate your tax dollars to do so). Similarly, if you're an urban-dwelling libertarian who bikes to work you sure as hell want there to be rules and order for traffic on the streets (well, just enough to protect you...but not so much that they slow you down). It's fun to hear my libertarian friends argue about this stuff.

But what I find truly sublime is the Cato Institute (a mega libertarian think tank) list of countries where people have the most freedoms. SPOILER ALERT: the US isn't in the top 10, but most of the countries that are have a sizable amount of *gasp* government-supported social and health services: Human Freedom Index

Cato doesn't draft my opinions for me, sorry

 

[namethatsmell]

The irony is that most of us can't wear MAGA stuff out in public. We might be verbally harassed, assaulted, or could lose our jobs.
The left touts #tolerance and #diversity but practice just the opposite. For them diversity is all about skin color, but diversity of thought is forbidden.

If we're being honest, this problem does exist on the far left. And also on the far right. The ability to have a political disagreement with somebody in this country...and actually listen to the person who disagrees with you...and then have that person actually listen to you...and then be able to even semi-amicably move on in peaceful co-existance if you don't agree...is sorely lacking in our country...and perhaps one of the biggest societal issues we face.

 

[PTPoeny]

Any business can require masks for customers to shop there. I have no problem with that.

I actually have no problem with nudity, but most stores would prevent nude people from shopping there.

Leisure activity that directly harms others is not what we are talking about. That's usually manslaughter, assault, or murder.

Are you sure that you want to argue that pursuing commerce from the buyers end is a right? There are a lot of parallels with healthcare as someone else has to provide the opportunity to buy. You say that you are fine with individual businesses deciding they would rather ask customers to wear masks, but across the country such policies have gotten employees of private businesses injured and verbally abused because members of the public thought accessing that commerce was their right.

Most leisure activities also required a person to offer the activity in question. Obviously not all, but unless you already have all the equipment you will need and can service it yourself; the pursuit of leisure will require someone else to offer you their services.

Anyone who believes healthcare isn't a right because making it a right removes freedom from the physicians providing the care should have qualms about considering it a right to pursue commerce or leisure activities as a consumer side.

 

[namethatsmell]

Cato doesn't draft my opinions for me, sorry

That's precisely the point. In my experience the closer you look at the views of one libertarian vs another, the more their specific views tend to diverge rather than converge.

 

[deleted480308]

That's precisely the point. In my experience the closer you look at the views of one libertarian vs another, the more their specific views tend to diverge rather than converge.

I don’t find that perception to be true, but we can disagree

 

[namethatsmell]

I don’t find that perception to be true, but we can disagree

Fair enough.

 

[miacomet]

Big jump from first statement to the next.

There are potentially unintended consequences of fighting natural selection and survival of the fittest.

This thread is devolving, but I do find it interested and am probably partially responsible.

Sure. And my point is that much of "natural selection" took place historically due to high infant mortality rates and abortion (frequently self-induced) along with childhood diseases. So I would imagine that those who are concerned with the unintended consequences of "natural selection" would advocate not just for letting a new virus run its course, but for free access to abortion, a decrease in childhood vaccination, and fewer interventions post-natally and in early childhood. This would be a highly efficient form of natural selection as it would also prevent reproduction, further enhancing "natural selection", something that SARS-CoV-19 does not do.

 

[thegenius]

Is engaging in commerce truly a human right?

Of course it is not. I don't know if humans have a right to anything based on the kind of philosophical conversation we are having.

Should there be any limitations on the human right of leisure activity; some leisure activity could cause direct harm to others? How should this be decided?

Therein lies the problem.

I would be philosophically fine if you have to pay for your own health care;
and if you can't pay for it then you suffer whatever consequences exist.

but humans over the last 100,000 years have steadily formed societies, and now great ones, because in general it benefits humans. And one of the numerous benefits is that we pool our resources to benefit the greater good.

I 100% believe if ants and lions and fish had the kind of advanced cognitive powers and abilities that humans have to create great societies, they would. They would have money, hospitals, vehicles, weapons, farms, etc. Fish would be lining up to gain entrance into the hospital to give birth. There would be fish laws, limits on how fast fish could swim, and there would be a stock market and computers. Some fish would be lazy and live off of other fish.

 

[Birdstrike]

Got invited to a 50th B-day party that was tonight. It was billed as, “Outside pool party. Masks required, and social distancing in place. BEST MASK WINS PRIZE.” As we we walk up to the door I ask my wife, “How many people do you think will have masks on? I say none.”

My wife tersely responds with, “Everyone will. They’re requiring it.” Our town is a current COVID hot spot.

We walk in to the party, armed with masks in hand, in pockets. There’s a band playing. Open bar. Dozens of people. Laughing. Drinking. Eating. Not one person was wearing a mask.

We had a great time.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. I'd definitely include commerce as part of all of those.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Got invited to a 50th B-day party that was tonight. It was billed as, “Outside pool party. Masks required, and social distancing in place. BEST MASK WINS PRIZE.” As we we walk up to the door I ask my wife, “How many people do you think will have masks on? I say none.”

My wife tersely responds with, “Everyone will. They’re requiring it.” Our town is a current COVID hot spot.

We walk in to the party, armed with my mask in hand, in my pocket. There’s a band playing. Open bar. Dozens of people. Laughing. Drinking. Eating. Not one person with a mask.

I loved every minute of it.

The same thing with a new, but small "lounge" that opened. Masks required at the front door, but as soon as you walk in, people are crowded up not wearing masks and dancing. Was nice to experience a bit of illicit freedom.

 

[GeneralVeers]

If we're being honest, this problem does exist on the far left. And also on the far right. The ability to have a political disagreement with somebody in this country...and actually listen to the person who disagrees with you...and then have that person actually listen to you...and then be able to even semi-amicably move on in peaceful co-existance if you don't agree...is sorely lacking in our country...and perhaps one of the biggest societal issues we face.

Disagree. While this kind of behavior does exist on the right, it is almost universally prevalent now on the Left. Can't question anything without being called a "racist" which usually shuts down a conversation. Most right wing people I know are eager to get into a discussion and exchange ideas without name-calling or attempt at cancellation.

 

[TwoHighways]

Illicit freedom. Love the term

 

[namethatsmell]

Disagree. While this kind of behavior does exist on the right, it is almost universally prevalent now on the Left. Can't question anything without being called a "racist" which usually shuts down a conversation. Most right wing people I know are eager to get into a discussion and exchange ideas without name-calling or attempt at cancellation.

The left brings their cancel culture. The right brings their guns and flags. Both sides bring their anger and both claim moral superiority. Double standards abound.

 

[GeneralVeers]

SARS-CoV-19 clearly is an example of natural selection. It’s is a disease the almost entirely affects people of older age, obesity and those with serious medical conditions.

Exactly. Which begs the moral question: Was it worth spending $4 trillion (probably a lot more than that), trampling civil liberties, and impoverishing millions of Americans in an effort to save people who are nearing the end of their lives?

 

[TwoHighways]

Exactly. Which begs the moral question: Was it worth spending $4 trillion (probably a lot more than that), trampling civil liberties, and impoverishing millions of Americans in an effort to save people who are nearing the end of their lives?

If it wasn’t corona, it would have been urosepsis, pulmonary edema secondary to CHF, MI, bacterial pneumonia, stroke, brain bleed secondary to fall, hyperkalemia secondary to renal failure, or failure to thrive secondary to cognitive decline/dementia. It will be interesting to see how mortality rates from other causes differ over the next few years in comparison to what was observed in 2019.

 

[thegenius]

Got invited to a 50th B-day party that was tonight. It was billed as, “Outside pool party. Masks required, and social distancing in place. BEST MASK WINS PRIZE.” As we we walk up to the door I ask my wife, “How many people do you think will have masks on? I say none.”

My wife tersely responds with, “Everyone will. They’re requiring it.” Our town is a current COVID hot spot.

We walk in to the party, armed with masks in hand, in pockets. There’s a band playing. Open bar. Dozens of people. Laughing. Drinking. Eating. Not one person was wearing a mask.

We had a great time.

I bet that kind of thing wouldn't happen where I live in Marin county, CA.

(that is not a comment at all about whether it's good or bad in your county or mine, but we have a lot of uptight people where we live)

 

[Birdstrike]

I bet that kind of thing wouldn't happen where I live in Marin county, CA.

(that is not a comment at all about whether it's good or bad in your county or mine, but we have a lot of uptight people where we live)

Damn dude. Your peeps gotsta c h i l l .

 

[thegenius]

Damn dude. Your peeps gotsta c h i l l .

James Hetfield (singer for Metallica) left Marin and moved to Colorado. He said Marin people all advocate having a diverse society, but only if it's their kind of diversity. So when he drives down the road with a dead deer on the back of his truck, they were all up in arms about it.

He owns about 700-1000 acres of land out here and he tried for years to develop it, and the people in this county continually voted down his permits. He even donated some of his land to an open space initiative to keep it wild. But at the end of the day he got tired of the bull**** and left.

 

[WilcoWorld]

More fallacies... reductio ad absurdum. not interested in being drawn into this type of discussion.

I'm confused - are you saying that reductio ad absurdum is a logical fallacy?

 

[miacomet]

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. I'd definitely include commerce as part of all of those.

And life- which would be helped by masking....

 

[Siggy]

This may sound dumb but it's important.

HIV was a pandemic with widespread effects. Yet there is no vaccine or cure.

Why is there an expectation that there will be a covid 19 vaccine?

Why is there no one complaining about the tyranny of universal precautions?

 

[GeneralVeers]

And life- which would be helped by masking....

Correct. People are free to choose to wear a mask if they want to reduce their low risk to slightly lower.

 

[Siggy]

Disagree. While this kind of behavior does exist on the right, it is almost universally prevalent now on the Left. Can't question anything without being called a "racist" which usually shuts down a conversation. Most right wing people I know are eager to get into a discussion and exchange ideas without name-calling or attempt at cancellation.

You mean the same people who demand that Bubba Wallace apologize for something he didn't start over something that looks an awful lot like the thing it was reported to look like?

You mean the same people who complain about how a flag doesn't represent the thing that the people who flag said it actually supported (never mind the fact that the Virigina Battle Flag isn't actually the flag of the Confederate States of America)?

The people who voted into office a man who's favorite twitter tactic is tasteless nicknames?

 

[GeneralVeers]

You mean the same people who demand that Bubba Wallace apologize for something he didn't start over something that looks an awful lot like the thing it was reported to look like?

You mean the same people who complain about how a flag doesn't represent the thing that the people who flag said it actually supported (never mind the fact that the Virigina Battle Flag isn't actually the flag of the Confederate States of America)?

The people who voted into office a man who's favorite twitter tactic is tasteless nicknames?

Agree to disagree. If you can't see the disparity in the passion for cancel culture, I can't help you.

 

[miacomet]

Agree to disagree. If you can't see the disparity in the passion for cancel culture, I can't help you.

I would consider the violent attacks against peaceful protesters the ultimate in cancel culture, and the right does plenty, perhaps more, of that.

 

[TwoHighways]

I would consider the violent attacks against peaceful protesters the ultimate in cancel culture, and the right does plenty, perhaps more, of that.

Umm, Antifa and CHAZ...

 

[GeneralVeers]

Umm, Antifa and CHAZ...

Shhhh....you are about to get cancelled. They are peaceful protestors.

 

[miacomet]

Shhhh....you are about to get cancelled. They are peaceful protestors.

Fair enough. Agree that Chaz had a ton of problems. I can't recall any media on antifa killing people.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Fair enough. Agree that Chaz had a ton of problems. I can't recall any media on antifa killing people.

I'd post numerous news articles about police and other uninvolved parties being killed/injured by these groups, but I am not allowed. Can someone help me out?

 

[TwoHighways]

I'd post numerous news articles about police and other uninvolved parties being killed/injured by these groups, but I am not allowed. Can someone help me out?

It’s not a competition. There’s crap on both ends that is reprehensible and our biases are going to play a huge role in how dangerous we view one extreme over the other. This is why the freedom of speech must be preserved. It’s how we navigate through all of the BS. I do think the assault on speech and ideas is mainly a left wing phenomena though, and I think most people with intellectual honesty would agree. Nazis, those who tote guns to purposely intimidate, and white supremacists suck just as much as Antifa, cancel culture mobs, and extreme BLM factions suck.

 

[Siggy]

I would consider the violent attacks against peaceful protesters the ultimate in cancel culture, and the right does plenty, perhaps more, of that.

See... that's because trying to "cancel" torch lit evening strolls while chanting "Blood and soil" or "Jews will not replace us" is bad... but canceling those people by running over them with a car is good...

Also see any discussion of flag burning.

Also, does anyone remember who we fought in Iraq? I forgot after the Iraqis pulled down his statue.

 

[GeneralVeers]

It’s not a competition. There’s crap on both ends that is reprehensible and our biases are going to play a huge role in how dangerous we view one extreme over the other. This is why the freedom of speech must be preserved. It’s how we navigate through all of the BS. I do think the assault on speech and ideas is mainly a left wing phenomena though, and I think most people with intellectual honesty would agree. Nazis, those who tote guns to purposely intimidate, and white supremacists suck just as much as Antifa, cancel culture mobs, and extreme BLM factions suck.

Thank you for understanding my point. Unfortunately a couple of extremist organizations you've listed have broad, mainstream media and political acceptance. None of the right wing Nazi groups enjoy that.

 

[Rendar5]

I'm so sorry to hear that. Might I ask the nature of their long-term sequelae?

On a vent for a couple of months, then trached . Dialysis, don’t know if he still on that. Also major mental impairment from either prolonged sedation or encephalopathiceffects of the virus.

 

[namethatsmell]

On a vent for a couple of months, then trached . Dialysis, don’t know if he still on that. Also major mental impairment from either prolonged sedation or encephalopathiceffects of the virus.

Ugh that sucks sorry to hear this. Hopefully his cognitive function will slowly improve.

While the majority of younger docs/staff I know of who've had covid have recovered, one very healthy/fit doc in his 30s died and another healthy/fit doc in his early 40s was vented/trached for ~4 weeks but seems to be neuro intact.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Umm, Antifa and CHAZ...

Shhhh....you are about to get cancelled. They are peaceful protestors.

Antifa are asshats. They've shown a proclivity for agitating peaceful protests, which detracts from the actual goal of the peaceful protestors. I'll say that. I'm not worried about getting cancelled.

 

[Rendar5]

Correct. People are free to choose to wear a mask if they want to reduce their low risk to slightly lower.

Masks are about reducing risks to others, not to yourself.

It’s a question of balancing your right to behavior of your choosing against the rights of other people not to have their own rights infringedUpon (in this case the right to life)

your right to Liberty of driving while drunk is restricted because it puts others rights to life in danger. Your freedom of speech to yell fire in a crowded theater is restricted because it puts others rights in danger. Conversely Your right to eat meat or wear fur or hunt is not restricted just because it puts PETA’s pursuit of happiness at risk.

the question of rights to wear clothing of your choosing against the right to put others lives in danger is honestly an up in the air question and not really legally decided as in above cases. If people want to bring it to court to decide it, by all means.
I personally get a little annoyed to have to put it in when I go to the store. But honestly I can’t see why people act like it’s a barbaric or offensive request. And everyone in an uproar seems to be acting like my 2 year old when I try to do her hair or wipe her face clean (fall out on the floor).

 

[Birdstrike]

The same thing with a new, but small "lounge" that opened. Masks required at the front door, but as soon as you walk in, people are crowded up not wearing masks and dancing. Was nice to experience a bit of illicit freedom.

The best part of the "Masks Required" party I went to last night, where no one was wearing masks, was that the mom who's been tearing up Facebook saying she's "literally shaking" in fear at the thought of her kids going back to school, the whole state should go back on quarantine and masks be required everywhere, was not wearing a mask. She also let out that her kids just got back from rouge sleepaway camp, which was two states away in a state where they're banned, because she couldn't find one not shut down in our state or bordering states. But my kids shouldn't be allowed to go to school, and I shouldn't be allowed to leave the house.

 

[TwoHighways]

Masks are about reducing risks to others, not to yourself.

It’s a question of balancing your right to behavior of your choosing against the rights of other people not to have their own rights infringedUpon (in this case the right to life)

your right to Liberty of driving while drunk is restricted because it puts others rights to life in danger. Your freedom of speech to yell fire in a crowded theater is restricted because it puts others rights in danger. Conversely Your right to eat meat or wear fur or hunt is not restricted just because it puts PETA’s pursuit of happiness at risk.

the question of rights to wear clothing of your choosing against the right to put others lives in danger is honestly an up in the air question and not really legally decided as in above cases. If people want to bring it to court to decide it, by all means.
I personally get a little annoyed to have to put it in when I go to the store. But honestly I can’t see why people act like it’s a barbaric or offensive request. And everyone in an uproar seems to be acting like my 2 year old when I try to do her hair or wipe her face clean (fall out on the floor).

What’s the risk of transmission between a non-masked, infected person and someone wearing a mask that isn’t infected and maintains a distance of six feet?

How much asymptomatic spread is actually occurring? How many people have recovered and/or developed immunity and are no longer able to spread the virus?

 

[GeneralVeers]

What’s the risk of transmission between a non-masked, infected person and someone wearing a mask that isn’t infected and maintains a distance of six feet?

How much asymptomatic spread is actually occurring? How many people have recovered and/or developed immunity and are no longer able to spread the virus?

Right this is my frustration concerning masks. Asymptomatic spread is probably real, but I doubt it's widespread and likely requires extensive, close contact with someone who is shouting, singing, or speaking who just happens to have the virus but no symptoms. I don't know about you guys, but in my daily life I don't spend extended face time with strangers at the mall.

Walking by the asymptomatic, maskless person at the supermarket has likely zero risk of contagion. They keep saying "Masks are required to protect others from asymptomatic spread", but it is more of a guess than science.