Marriage and Name Changing

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poppy0 said:
I just had to comment on this thread because i have some very strong opinions on this matter.

Bigz, I don't understand this mentality of yours. So am i to take it that you are a very controlling husband? because you fork out the cash, you are entitled to make all the decisions? In my opinion that's not a very respectful relationship.

When i get married i will not be changing my last name, and my boyfriend has already been made aware of this fact. He expressed dissatisfaction with this decision when i first brought it up, but he soon realized that essentially it will have no baring on his life and it's my name- my choice.

Also, if we ever have kids, either both of us take leave from work, or neither of us do. Why have kids if parents can't both shoulder the responsibility. I understand if one partner's job is more demanding, and they can't afford to take time off, but when both partners are of the same profession then it's not fair anymore.

And my future kids will not automatically get his last name. I will be burdened with carrying them for 9 months, my last name should at least get SOME consideration in this matter. The fact that it's "tradition" and that it has always been done means nothing to me. We're in medicine, we have to be progressive and adaptive. Things in medicine are continuously evolving and physicians need to be able to keep up and accept those changes. Same thing goes for societal values and norms.
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poppy0 said:
Not at all... how?
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it seems to be your way or the highway. Since tradition is not important to you, you'll be fine with spliting the cost of the ring? or maybe buy a ring for him to? So lets see, if your kids are first name last name-last name. What happens when they get married? their kids will be first name last name-last name-last name-last name? see the problem

me wanting a girl to take my last name has nothing to do with control. its about being a single family under one name. We are not Ms. Thompson Mr. Johnson living in the same house, we are the Johnson's. Its a symbol of unity, and marriage is a union, not just some agreement between two people.

personally I would call it off if she didn't take my name. Maybe she thinks it won't work out in 5 years and wants to save herself the trouble. if she cares about her career and getting her name published more than she cares about me, then she can hit the road.
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What's maddening to me about this whole discussion is not that you men want your wives to take your last names. It's the unilateral "me Tarzan, you Jane" caveman attitude about it.

You also assume that you are going to be the "provider" in the home. Is that because you want to marry a traditional woman that went to college to get a MRS or because you force your wife to take off from her career/do her job part time to take care of the kids? Again, having a wife become a homemaker or stay at home mom is not a bad thing. It's the imposition of this path on to her because "she's a woman and that's what she's supposed to do" that irks me.

I personally find it hard to try to impose anything on my husband that I wouldn't do myself. Me stay home to take care of the kids? I say hell no, so I don't think it's fair of me to ask him to do it either. I also wouldn't assume he do it because I make more money and am the "provider." If he wants to do it and that makes him happy, I don't have a problem with it. Otherwise, we'll work something else out with childcare. I guess that's because I see marriage as a partnership. I'm hearing a lot about this 1+1 = 1 philosophy, but your discussion leads me to believe it's not because of compromise and communication but rather of subjugation of whatever the wife's opinions are on these matters.
 
poppy0 said:
I'm not setting any limitations. i'm not giving ultimatums. i'm only in favor of fairness.

It's not fair for one person to compromise their career.
It's not fair to just give the kids the dad's name because that's how tradition dictates for things to be done. Yea, i probably WOULD give them his last name because his last name is nicer than mine:p and people wouldn't always be questioning their ethnicity if they had mine (it's a very... european name that no one has EVER heard of...) and combined our names would just sound odd/ be 10000 characters long.
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i personally don't care about publications. i have no research aspirations at all, i want to be a physician. I go to to school and to work to feed my family first and help the medical world second. i would nvr choose it over them, nor would i marry a woman who feels publications are a legitimate reason not to take my last name
 
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Staradmiral said:
it seems to be your way or the highway. Since tradition is not important to you, you'll be fine with spliting the cost of the ring? or maybe buy a ring for him to? So lets see, if your kids are first name last name-last name. What happens when they get married? their kids will be first name last name-last name-last name-last name? see the problem

me wanting a girl to take my last name has nothing to do with control. its about being a single family under one name. We are not Ms. Thompson Mr. Johnson living in the same house, we are the Johnson's. Its a symbol of unity, and marriage is a union, not just some agreement between two people.

personally I would call it off if she didn't take my name. Maybe she thinks it won't work out in 5 years and wants to save herself the trouble. if she cares about her career and getting her name published more than she cares about me, then she can hit the road.
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I definitely don't just believe in it being "my way or the highway". did you not read the part where i mentioned a respectful relationship?

I just said that i wouldnt want to hyphenate my kids names- his name sounds a lot better than mine, i just want some consideration.

So if you were in a long term relationship with the love of your life (and you were convinced she was the one), and for some reason you guys never talked about name changing until the engagement- when she expressed a differing view- you would just dump her? i don't think so. if that's the case than that's really shallow (in my opinion).

What about you taking her last name? it would still be the same name. And don't give me the bull that nobody does it, that's not a legitimate reason to end your relationship (if you were adamant about having the same last name). What makes the guy able to say "no" but gives the woman no choice. If you really loved your girlfriend/ wife you would want there to be equality. You would care just as much about HER professional success as yours.
equality= respect= real love.
 
Jolie South said:
What's maddening to me about this whole discussion is not that you men want your wives to take your last names. It's the unilateral "me Tarzan, you Jane" caveman attitude about it.

You also assume that you are going to be the "provider" in the home. Is that because you want to marry a traditional woman that went to college to get a MRS or because you force your wife to take off from her career/do her job part time to take care of the kids? Again, having a wife become a homemaker or stay at home mom is not a bad thing. It's the imposition of this path on to her because "she's a woman and that's what she's supposed to do" that irks me.

I personally find it hard to try to impose anything on my husband that I wouldn't do myself. Me stay home to take care of the kids? I say hell no, so I don't think it's fair of me to ask him to do it either. I also wouldn't assume he do it because I make more money and am the "provider." If he wants to do it and that makes him happy, I don't have a problem with it. Otherwise, we'll work something else out with childcare. I guess that's because I see marriage as a partnership. I'm hearing a lot about this 1+1 = 1 philosophy, but your discussion leads me to believe it's not because of compromise and communication but rather of subjugation of whatever the wife's opinions are on these matters.
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I would never force a woman to be a housewife. i would marry a woman that is genuinely okay with it.
 
poppy0 said:
What about you taking her last name? it would still be the same name. And don't give me the bull that nobody does it, that's not a legitimate reason to end your relationship (if you were adamant about having the same last name). What makes the guy able to say "no" but gives the woman no choice. If you really loved your girlfriend/ wife you would want there to be equality. You would care just as much about HER professional success as yours.
equality= respect= real love.
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men and woman are equal. Men are woman are not the same and have different desires. You get this, i get that. "Quid pro quo". Men want this, woman want that. a wife to take his last name is something many men want. but i do not hear of woman wanting a man to take their last name. Woman obviously don't genuinely want that, so its not equal because he does not get what he wants, while she remains neutral. he is -1, she is 0.

my marriage will be equal, but me and my wife will not be the same. I get what i want and in exchange she gets what she wants. i'm not forcing a woman to take my last name. What i am saying is there is alot in it for her when she does.

and in regards to her professional career. It goes exactly where my career goes: second to the family
 
poppy0 said:
ah- so that explains why you called me controlling :rolleyes:
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Well i have certain things that I want in the opposite sex, just like everyone does. Some people want someone with a strong career, some people want someone who is funny, etc. I personally want a woman who is "family oriented". nothing wrong with that.

even though i wanna be a physician, I am a very family oriented guy. I chose this career because it would do well for my family. If i won the lottery i would happily be a stay at home dad, and we could both raise the family together, but someone's gotta pay the bills, while the other tends to the home. I personally do not believe in dual wage couples and don't want my kids raised by a nanny, if i make more then enough to support the family, then there really is no reason for her to work a payed job.
 
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Staradmiral said:
Well i have certain things that I want in the opposite sex, just like everyone does. Some people want someone with a strong career, some people want someone who is funny, etc. I personally want a woman who is "family oriented". nothing wrong with that.
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I respect that.

Although to be family oriented doesn't necessarily mean to stay at home/ follow traditional gender roles- but that's another discussion :oops:
 
comment retracted. jdh71 sorry:p
 
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Staradmiral said:
Well i have certain things that I want in the opposite sex, just like everyone does. Some people want someone with a strong career, some people want someone who is funny, etc. I personally want a woman who is "family oriented". nothing wrong with that.

even though i wanna be a physician, I am a very family oriented guy. I chose this career because it would do well for my family. If i won the lottery i would happily be a stay at home dad, and we could both raise the family together, but someone's gotta pay the bills, while the other tends to the home. I personally do not believe in dual wage couples and don't want my kids raised by a nanny, if i make more then enough to support the family, then there really is no reason for her to work a payed job.
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If you don't want your kids to be raised by a nanny and your wife has an equivalent or better income, would you stay home then? Why is it the woman by default?
 
jdh71 said:
No difference. You merely asked why women are the default. Asked and answered.
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A mother can provide things a father could not. Men aren't not the nurturing sort that a child needs. Blame biology not society.
 
Would you rather be a princess showered by your husbands affections or right there in the trenches with him overworked and underpaid. Men have no problem sharing with their wives so either way money won't be a factor, unless you want a life filled with extravagance.
 
Jolie South said:
O RLY. All women are of a "nurturing sort?" What does that even mean? We're genetically programmed to change poopy diapers? Talk in baby-talk?
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Not necessarily that but women do have oxytocin.
 
FutureDr214 said:
A mother can provide things a father could not. Men aren't not the nurturing sort that a child needs. Blame biology not society.
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I disagree. there's a BBC documentary called the Biology of Dads that highlights the importance of being a "nurturing" father for the development of the child. It's not only mothers who are nurturing.

I agree with Jolie South's question as to your definition of nurturing, because in my books it means to take care of your kid, teach them, love them, listen to them and that is something both parents can do and MUST do.

And biology has nothing to do with this. men have to have a nurturing side to them. they have to make sure that their progeny are healthy and live long enough to pass on their genes.
 
poppy0 said:
I disagree. there's a BBC documentary called the Biology of Dads that highlights the importance of being a "nurturing" father for the development of the child. It's not only mothers who are nurturing.

I agree with Jolie South's question as to your definition of nurturing, because in my books it means to take care of your kid, teach them, love them, listen to them and that is something both parents can do and MUST do.

And biology has nothing to do with this. men have to have a nurturing side to them. they have to make sure that their progeny are healthy and live long enough to pass on their genes.
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I pretty sure thats the exception not the rule. I could be wrong through but I have never heard of any stay at home dads.
 
poppy0 said:
So do men. what's your point. it's called a "bonding hormone". it increases in both women AND men after having a kid.
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Yes but it is still more prelavent in women. I mean I always hear dudes saying their kid is annoying. Imagine if a man was left to his own devices with a child. Poor child would probably feel neglected. Of course I could be wrong.

After 9 months of carrying the child I believe a mother's bond is stronger than the father's at that point.
 
FutureDr214 said:
Yes but it is still more prelavent in women. I mean I always hear dudes saying their kid is annoying. Imagine if a man was left to his own devices with a child. Poor child would probably feel neglected. Of course I could be wrong.
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i actually looked this up. after the kid is born men and women have the same levels of oxytocin.

Women obviously think kids are annoying too:p its not unique to men to get annoyed when their kid is not behaving.
If the father can't handle his own kid then his parenting skills get called into question. biologically, men are not inferior at child rearing.
 
poppy0 said:
i actually looked this up. after the kid is born men and women have the same levels of oxytocin.

Women obviously think kids are annoying too:p its not unique to men to get annoyed when their kid is not behaving.
If the father can't handle his own kid then his parenting skills get called into question. biologically, men are not inferior at child rearing.
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I will concede to you on this because it can go either way. But I personally like the traditional family structure.
 
pharm B said:
My wife and I came up with a novel solution when we got married. Instead of picking a baby name out of a book, we googled last names and settled on one we both liked.

Kind of screws future genealogy nuts in our family, though. :smuggrin:
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Don't you think you child is gonna question in that in the future. His/her classmates will have the same last names as their parents and your child would have a different one from you and your wife. I mean if that's what you want great but it will require some explaining.
 
FutureDr214 said:
Don't you think you child is gonna question in that in the future. His/her classmates will have the same last names as their parents and your child would have a different one from you and your wife. I mean if that's what you want great but it will require some explaining.
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It was a joke. ;) I should have specified that we chose a name the same way some people choose a baby's name.

In all seriousness, I'm a big fan of the marriage = partnership concept, but we never really got into an in-depth discussion on who was taking what name. She took mine, and there was no club-over-the-head caveman aspect to it.

The OP said they were getting married during their fourth year and were worried about switching names. I guess my question is: why? Just seems like a non-starter to me.
 
pharm B said:
It was a joke. ;) I should have specified that we chose a name the same way some people choose a baby's name.

In all seriousness, I'm a big fan of the marriage = partnership concept, but we never really got into an in-depth discussion on who was taking what name. She took mine, and there was no club-over-the-head caveman aspect to it.

The OP said they were getting married during their fourth year and were worried about switching names. I guess my question is: why? Just seems like a non-starter to me.
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+1

I agree with that.
 
poppy0 said:
I just had to comment on this thread because i have some very strong opinions on this matter.

Bigz, I don't understand this mentality of yours. So am i to take it that you are a very controlling husband? because you fork out the cash, you are entitled to make all the decisions? In my opinion that's not a very respectful relationship.

When i get married i will not be changing my last name, and my boyfriend has already been made aware of this fact. He expressed dissatisfaction with this decision when i first brought it up, but he soon realized that essentially it will have no baring on his life and it's my name- my choice.

Also, if we ever have kids, either both of us take leave from work, or neither of us do. Why have kids if parents can't both shoulder the responsibility. I understand if one partner's job is more demanding, and they can't afford to take time off, but when both partners are of the same profession then it's not fair anymore.

And my future kids will not automatically get his last name. I will be burdened with carrying them for 9 months, my last name should at least get SOME consideration in this matter. The fact that it's "tradition" and that it has always been done means nothing to me. We're in medicine, we have to be progressive and adaptive. Things in medicine are continuously evolving and physicians need to be able to keep up and accept those changes. Same thing goes for societal values and norms.
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No I am not controlling husband and i do not make all the decisions.My wife is a very strong woman and is one of the attributes I liked. My approach to my marriage is that we are equal BUT different and we work within those lines.

With that said I am HUGE on tradition. Not only did I ask my wife to marry me but I asked her dad before that and made sure I had his blessing. Tradition which the institution of marriage is, is very important to me. No its not just a name because if it was and it meant nothing and will not affect your life you would not have qualms changing your name.
 
poppy0 said:
I respect that.

Although to be family oriented doesn't necessarily mean to stay at home/ follow traditional gender roles- but that's another discussion :oops:
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That is what your problems is "traditional gender roles". My wife have been holding serve taking care of the family financially for the last two years why I pursue medicine Just as I did when she was finishing up her degree. I always tease my wife that she is the only women to have given birth and not wake once in the middle of the night. We had a routine where she pumps and I feed. I am proud to say that I am the primary care taker of my girls and i will not trade that bond for anything else. The name was important to me and had nothing to do with gender roles.With that said we do have traditional gender roles as mom and dad and we play that.

I am a five yea vet of this marriage thing with two kids and so far so good for us. Good luck to you in the future
 
I'd be kind of weirded out if my wife wanted to change her name. Theres no way I'd change my last name so why would I expect her to? But then again, I would never ever marry a woman who wanted to stay at home. I want someone with intellectual curiosity and drive to succeed in her career (whatever that career maybe).
 
Lokhtar said:
I'd be kind of weirded out if my wife wanted to change her name. Theres no way I'd change my last name so why would I expect her to? But then again, I would never ever marry a woman who wanted to stay at home. I want someone with intellectual curiosity and drive to succeed in her career (whatever that career maybe).
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Its funny how you equate stay at home to lack of intellectual curiosity. I remember the first time we took our daughter to daycare and right confront of us her pacifier fell out of her mouth and it was picked up not washed or rinsed and shoved back in her mouth. We looked at each other in horror but we had no choice. She had to work and I had classes. When you child start using words you've never used then daycare becomes not such a great option.

Staying at home is a sacrifice a spouse makes for the betterment of the family. You do not have the experience of dragging your toddler child out to daycare at 5am in the morning so it is easy to say.

I take my children out of daycare every year as soon as school is over, nothing beats staying at home with daddy; Not even the extra 4 grand a month a could bring home in the summer. Now that I have been accepted My wife will most likely stay home and may be work PRN to keep her license.
 
Bigz said:
Its funny how you equate stay at home to lack of intellectual curiosity. I remember the first time we took our daughter to daycare and right confront of us her pacifier fell out of her mouth and it was picked up not washed or rinsed and shoved back in her mouth. We looked at each other in horror but we had no choice. She had to work and I had classes. When you child start using words you've never used then daycare becomes not such a great option.

Staying at home is a sacrifice a spouse makes for the betterment of the family. You do not have the experience of dragging your toddler child out to daycare at 5am in the morning so it is easy to say.

I take my children out of daycare every year as soon as school is over, nothing beats staying at home with daddy; Not even the extra 4 grand a month a could bring home in the summer. Now that I have been accepted My wife will most likely stay home and may be work PRN to keep her license.
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The second part of my statement was "and drive to succeed in her career.". It's not about the money, it's about that drive. My friend has a that girlfriend is going into research - she makes like $35k as a post doc but she loves research and works seven days a week because she wants to put out awesome papers and learn more about her topic. That's what drives her.

I'm glad you have something that works for you and that's great for you. But that's not the type of relationship I'd ever get involved in - I wouldnt be attracted to someone (long term) if they were the type of person who wants to stay at home. First I don't even care about kids or ever having them but if I do there are options like grandparents or daycare - all of which would be preferable to my wife staying home. Obviously it's not my place to tell anyone what to do but I doubt the relationship would get that far if we didn't have that type of personality match.
 
Lokhtar said:
The second part of my statement was "and drive to succeed in her career.". It's not about the money, it's about that drive. My friend has a that girlfriend is going into research - she makes like $35k as a post doc but she loves research and works seven days a week because she wants to put out awesome papers and learn more about her topic. That's what drives her.

I'm glad you have something that works for you and that's great for you. But that's not the type of relationship I'd ever get involved in - I wouldnt be attracted to someone (long term) if they were the type of person who wants to stay at home. First I don't even care about kids or ever having them but if I do there are options like grandparents or daycare - all of which would be preferable to my wife staying home. Obviously it's not my place to tell anyone what to do but I doubt the relationship would get that far if we didn't have that type of personality match.
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It all comes down to what you want in a mate. No one is wrong for wanting certain things or traits. Different strokes for different folks.
 
Lokhtar said:
I'd be kind of weirded out if my wife wanted to change her name. Theres no way I'd change my last name so why would I expect her to? But then again, I would never ever marry a woman who wanted to stay at home. I want someone with intellectual curiosity and drive to succeed in her career (whatever that career maybe).
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Im going to change my last name to my wifes name. Then im going to name each child after my maternal grandfather, my mother's maiden name. it only seems fair that way...
 
OveractiveBrain said:
Im going to change my last name to my wifes name. Then im going to name each child after my maternal grandfather, my mother's maiden name. it only seems fair that way...
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bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

:laugh: :laugh:
 
I really wouldn't mind if my wife took my last name, just as long as my kids got it.
 
Meh who cares what the last name is of your kid or your wife? As long as it's not some hippy douche name that'll get his ass kicked in school (eg. 'Michael Runs-with-Coyotes'), I don't really give a ****.
 
How in the heck is there a 6 page thread on this topic? Wasn't it established on page one that it's a "personal decision;" so why does everyone need someone to pat them on the back and validate their desire?

FWIW, if I ever find a woman I want to marry, I would suggest the hyphen thing, awkwardness and all. If she voluntarily wanted to take my name, cool. If she wanted to keep her maiden name, cool. I would like my kids to have my name just for simplicity's sake, but it wouldn't be a big deal. There are so many bigger questions that go through my head when determining if a woman would be "right" for me that "What would her last name be" is nowhere in my thought process :laugh:
 
GoSpursGo said:
How in the heck is there a 6 page thread on this topic? Wasn't it established on page one that it's a "personal decision;" so why does everyone need someone to pat them on the back and validate their desire?

FWIW, if I ever find a woman I want to marry, I would suggest the hyphen thing, awkwardness and all. If she voluntarily wanted to take my name, cool. If she wanted to keep her maiden name, cool. I would like my kids to have my name just for simplicity's sake, but it wouldn't be a big deal. There are so many bigger questions that go through my head when determining if a woman would be "right" for me that "What would her last name be" is nowhere in my thought process :laugh:
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Finally, someone in this thread is actually thinking straight. I'll be getting married in a couple years, and I plan on keeping my own last name. (I'd totally hyphenate, but our two last names together sound like an extended burp.) It's not a feminist issue, it's just that I happen to like the name I've got now and I don't think I should have to change it. When I have kids someday, I'll probably give my kids my husband's last name to avoid confusion. This is 2011, and I don't think that keeping one's last name should have to be such a charged issue.
 
GoSpursGo said:
How in the heck is there a 6 page thread on this topic? Wasn't it established on page one that it's a "personal decision;" so why does everyone need someone to pat them on the back and validate their desire?

FWIW, if I ever find a woman I want to marry, I would suggest the hyphen thing, awkwardness and all. If she voluntarily wanted to take my name, cool. If she wanted to keep her maiden name, cool. I would like my kids to have my name just for simplicity's sake, but it wouldn't be a big deal. There are so many bigger questions that go through my head when determining if a woman would be "right" for me that "What would her last name be" is nowhere in my thought process :laugh:
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I think it was just a point of discussion that has evolved over time. I mean it is somewhat interesting to hear people's different point of views and I did learn something new when I learned how difficult it is with changing name on licensure for female doctors and how that drives many women to keep maiden name or do the whole hyphen thing.

It was interesting when it wasn't turning into an attack on alwaysangel anyhow.
 
Lokhtar said:
I'd be kind of weirded out if my wife wanted to change her name. Theres no way I'd change my last name so why would I expect her to? But then again, I would never ever marry a woman who wanted to stay at home. I want someone with intellectual curiosity and drive to succeed in her career (whatever that career maybe).
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Intellectual curiosity isn't the end all be all. As someone that's constantly surrounded by academics and who hopes to go into academia, I find it disappointing that intellectualism is so often held up as some divine trait that can truly be used to "rank" individuals. It's great, and I think intellectual curiosity serves society well in a lot of ways but it's become this twisted measure of a person's worth, especially in the realm of science and academia. This isn't all geared towards your post but the first part was.

Second, about the name changing, I feel like we entered the stage where we were simply talking past each other for quite some time now. We've got the camp accusing the other side of sexism, another group advocating traditional values, another camp saying it doesn't matter, yet another group saying it doesn't matter but kind of it does...no one's mind is going to be convinced.

Literally no one cares. If there was ever a venue where such a personal topic might result in someone changing their stance on it, SDN isn't it. What's more, it pretty much does nothing but frustrate us all at how wrong and bigoted/selfish/stupid some group is. Nothing will change, very little will be learned, and once again, no one cares. Ugh, topics like these are frustrating to read just watching constant arguing and no actual willingness to change.
 
I'd only change my last name if "Dr. HisName" sounded better than "Dr. MyName". And my last name is pretty cool, so his would have to be REALLY cool in order to make it worth all the hassle of changing your name. I hate hyphens, so there's no way I'd do that. I probably wouldn't care if he wanted kids to have his last name.

I guess I feel pretty nonchalant about this because my mother never changed her last name to my dad's. She changed her name for her first marriage, and then back when she got divorced, and I guess felt it was too much of a hassle to change it a second time. My parents have been together for 28 years so clearly it didn't impact their marriage much. My brothers and I have our dad's last name.
 
Narmerguy said:
Intellectual curiosity isn't the end all be all. As someone that's constantly surrounded by academics and who hopes to go into academia, I find it disappointing that intellectualism is so often held up as some divine trait that can truly be used to "rank" individuals. It's great, and I think intellectual curiosity serves society well in a lot of ways but it's become this twisted measure of a person's worth, especially in the realm of science and academia. This isn't all geared towards your post but the first part was.
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Well, I never said it's a ranking - or that's it's a measure of someone's worth (but worth is a subjective criteria and for me, that's a good indicator...but that's neither here nor there). However, to answer your point - I'm allowed to look for certain characteristics in a potential partner, aren't I? If you want certain things from your partner, good for you and good luck. I was simply pointing out what I wanted, and what I generally look for - why is it wrong for me to look for a partner that's intellectually curious and career-oriented. I've had relationships where it wasn't like that and it's not fun for me. I personally wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who wasn't like that, but I never said that you shouldn't.
 
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Starbuxian
Starbuxian
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Question for Attendings and Residents: Have students become more lazy/eager to go home to study this year since the Step 1 score change?
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2K
RapidEyeMovementLearning
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