Malignant OMFS programs?

[Quarterelven]

Hey all,

This might be a controversial topic, but it's something very important to me (and probably others) going into interview/rank season. Which programs are known to be malignant (ie miserable not necessarily due to the amount of hard work, but due to the culture/environment - residents/attending who yell, or are passive-aggressive, or there is just a general culture of fear)? I hope to avoid such places, so a comprehensive list or discussion would be helpful! Thanks.

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[Awarara]

I would like to know too as I will be interviewing at programs. I know most programs are great but malignant programs do exist and it's hard to judge a place if you haven't externed there and when you're there interviewing, everyone is in their suit and tie and on their best behavior. Feel free PM me if you don't feel comfortable sharing publicly.

 

[Quarterelven]

Feel free PM me if you don't feel comfortable sharing publicly.

Ditto. I understand if it is not a comfortable topic.

 

[UncUndergrad1]

its not a secret, its usually very obvious at interviews and on the trail you'll hear about the usual suspects

 

[Localnative]

I'd liken the bigger more academically rigorous/research heavies to the following (I did the U Mich 6 year a bunch of years back)-->
they are like carcinoma in situ... if you keep it contained (stay under the radar and do your job), the overall prognosis ain't bad. If you break the basement membrane because of douchebaggery and not being a team player, you can expect a long and painful course.

 

[hahadino2771]

These are the list of malignant OMFS programs, which are historically known for abusing, firing, forcing them to resign and dismissing their residents. Some of them are included b/c they recently dismissed its residents in the past few years. 15 - 20% of residents leave these programs for whatever reason. If you really doubt, then please check out the program website, and see if there is any open resident position in PGY-2 - PGY-6 level.

-Emory
-Houston
-Miami
-Case western
-Maryland
-UNC
-VCU
-Yale
-Wisconsin
-Nebraska
-Temple
-Jefferson

Here are some red flags.
-when there is an open spot in 2nd to senior level resident position
-when a program is looking for an interim intern in the middle of the year
-when a program is looking for pgy2 -5 transfer position

Omfs applicants work their butt off to get matched to OMFS residency programs. It is a long journey to go through multiple externships with sleepless nights, to crush all the exams during dental school, to ace NBME exam, and to do something else that you shine your resume. It's a lot of work. Some programs are very supportive, and properly train their residents with proper support. Sometimes, it is performance issues. Sometimes, residents become a scapegoat for political fights between different surgery departments. Sometimes, some attendings just hate their residents to death. For some certain programs, residents just end up leaving their programs for whatever reasons. If resignation or dismissal is happening consistently every couple of years to several years, then you have to be really really careful. In medicine, there is a huge lawsuit against the entire residency program and institutions when residents are forced to leave for whatever reasons. I attached an article of 20 million dollar lawsuit case at the Johns Hopkins hospital. I guess OMFS program directors are not taking it seriously, and trying to sneak themselves out of due process or lawsuits b/c dental school grads are not so familiar with systems like this. Once you are out of the program, you can never go back because your previous program director will blacklist you forever.

good luck with matching to the program that will support your journey to OMFS from the beginning to the end, support you when you are in med school, support you when you are a newbie intern, support you when you are getting your ass kicked by other MD attendings during offservice rotations, and support you so that you can be board certified.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/fired-hopkins-doctor-seeks-24m.660565/

http://www.healthleadersmedia.com/leadership/lawsuit-highlights-legal-issues-tied-firing-residents

 

[MissingTooth]

I'm currently a resident at VCU and I can say first hand that it is definitely not a malignant program. The attendings are all approachable and enjoy teaching. It is one of very few programs where the residents do almost 100% of the cutting and the attendings guide the residents through the surgery. The reason we are missing a resident in one of the years is because he struggled a little bit during intern year, especially on the off service rotations to a point where he was asked to leave an off service rotation to return to OMFS. It was a culmination of a bunch of factors that lead to a meeting with both attendings and senior residents and the decision was made to not renew his residency for the following years. Following this decision, the attendings assisted him in rotating through the other specialties throughout the dental school to help him find another field. He was able to spend time rotating through endo, peds, ortho, and even the AEGD. At VCU we have only had 2 residents to ever be dismissed from the program.


We were also actively looking for a new pre-lim last year not because he quit but because another program offered him a categorical position. A resident at another program decided that OMFS was not for him and they asked our pre-lim if he would like to take the open spot.


I encourage any of you who are interested in OMFS to extern here at VCU to truly experience the culture of our program. The program director loves his program and loves to show externs what VCU has to offer. Our program director goes out of his way to make sure the externs have an amazing experience and enjoy their time at VCU.


If any of you have questions about VCU’s OMFS program feel free to PM me or post here and I will do my best to answer.

 

[byuAD]

So first time being on SDN for a while and I realize why. What is this crap, gees. What the heck is your credentials and your criteria for that list. I am a resident at Nebraska and it is literally the least malignant program. But seriously. So I hope anyone who reads your list also reads my comment, because I feel like I am taking crazy pills.

 

[ballztowallzomfs]

After having interviewed at some of these places, here are my thoughts:

Emory - Not really malignant, but busy with some residents treating each other in a poorly. When I externed there, Grady seemed like a rough place to be. The resident there was not happy with his life and felt abused.

Houston - Recently fired a resident and fired another residents a few years ago. Might be a red flag. The residents all seemed really nice though.

Jefferson - I felt miserable here as an extern just seeing how the attendings treated the residents. I felt like I would have been miserable here and ended up not even ranking the program.

UNC - The residents were all great. I only heard about certain attendings being malignant and putting down residents. This information came from a person that externed at the program and was confirmed by residents during my interview.

Residents should consider this information when applying to programs. What is the point of your training if you constantly in fear of being fired or being treated unprofessionally by your coresidents or attendings? I ended up ranking the above programs at the bottom of my list or not ranking them. If the firings, unprofessionalism continue, I would suspect that people rank these programs at the bottom of their list as well. This will only lead to these programs ending up with weaker candidates.

These are the list of malignant OMFS programs, which are historically known for abusing, firing, forcing them to resign and dismissing their residents. Some of them are included b/c they recently dismissed its residents in the past few years. 15 - 20% of residents leave these programs for whatever reason. If you really doubt, then please check out the program website, and see if there is any open resident position in PGY-2 - PGY-6 level.

-Emory
-Houston
-Miami
-Case western
-Maryland
-UNC
-VCU
-Yale
-Wisconsin
-Nebraska
-Temple
-Jefferson

Here are some red flags.
-when there is an open spot in 2nd to senior level resident position
-when a program is looking for an interim intern in the middle of the year
-when a program is looking for pgy2 -5 transfer position

Omfs applicants work their butt off to get matched to OMFS residency programs. It is a long journey to go through multiple externships with sleepless nights, to crush all the exams during dental school, to ace NBME exam, and to do something else that you shine your resume. It's a lot of work. Some programs are very supportive, and properly train their residents with proper support. Sometimes, it is performance issues. Sometimes, residents become a scapegoat for political fights between different surgery departments. Sometimes, some attendings just hate their residents to death. For some certain programs, residents just end up leaving their programs for whatever reasons. If resignation or dismissal is happening consistently every couple of years to several years, then you have to be really really careful. In medicine, there is a huge lawsuit against the entire residency program and institutions when residents are forced to leave for whatever reasons. I attached an article of 20 million dollar lawsuit case at the Johns Hopkins hospital. I guess OMFS program directors are not taking it seriously, and trying to sneak themselves out of due process or lawsuits b/c dental school grads are not so familiar with systems like this. Once you are out of the program, you can never go back because your previous program director will blacklist you forever.

good luck with matching to the program that will support your journey to OMFS from the beginning to the end, support you when you are in med school, support you when you are a newbie intern, support you when you are getting your ass kicked by other MD attendings during offservice rotations, and support you so that you can be board certified.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/fired-hopkins-doctor-seeks-24m.660565/

http://www.healthleadersmedia.com/leadership/lawsuit-highlights-legal-issues-tied-firing-residents

 

[Muggsy Bogues]

Thread is in poor taste I think and programs are being unfairly labeled. I completely understand someone wanting to mitigate the risks that they find themselves miserable for 4-6 years but I honestly do not believe there is any information a prospective applicant could get that would help them. There are many, many factors that contribute to a bad resident experience at a program and most, if not all, are not something intrinsic to the program (unless you incorrectly believe being extremely busy qualifies as malignancy rather than educational opportunity).

 

[Tooth]

I am surprised to hear anything negative about Dr. Baur at Case. I went to dental school there and he always appeared genuine, grounded, humble and helpful. He was prior Army and brought a lot of experience to the table. My impression was that the residents were quite grateful for his presence, at least at the time.

I worked with a couple of prior OS residents while I was in the Navy. They were both forced out for different reasons. It happens in the Navy too despite the Navy having a consistently high demand for OS's. Seems counter-productive and you would think there would be better ways to help residents who were perceived as struggling. I believe one of these residents transferred from a VA OS program to the Navy OS program after one year. From his experience, I would recommend you never do this. It seemed doomed from the start. When the Navy forced these OS residents out, they gave them a certificate in "exodontia" which is basically a specialty only recognized by the military. They pretty much only get to extract teeth which we do a lot of in the Navy. In this manner, they believe they are protecting themselves from litigation aimed at essentially wasting the residents time and service. They at least gave them something.

SDN, like most blogs, is full of opinions. We won't all agree and it's fine to disagree. It is simply a source where people can ask questions and get answers. Whether the answers are good or not is debatable. The thread topic seems fine to me. I know I would have liked some input if I were searching for an OS program. Please defend your program if you believe it is worth defending.

 

[alexeb91]

I externed at Case as well as interviewed there and I can see why someone might say Baur is malignant...however I TRULY feel the opposite is reality. He definitely comes off gruff but man the residents seemed to love him and he totally respected the residents in the OR. I'd be so stoked to match there.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[ballztowallzomfs]

Thread is in poor taste I think and programs are being unfairly labeled. I completely understand someone wanting to mitigate the risks that they find themselves miserable for 4-6 years but I honestly do not believe there is any information a prospective applicant could get that would help them. There are many, many factors that contribute to a bad resident experience at a program and most, if not all, are not something intrinsic to the program (unless you incorrectly believe being extremely busy qualifies as malignancy rather than educational opportunity).

Being busy does not qualify as being malignant. Being cursed at, demeaned, threatened to be kicked out are all things that can make 4-6 years of hell. There is no reason for any of this. Being an attending or a higher level resident does not give you the right to be an ahole, which happens at a lot of places. Being threatened to be kicked out also creates a tense environment. Instead of enjoying/learning because you find something interesting, you do so and act in a certain manner just so you don't get kicked out. I could not image being a resident at a place like Houston where I would have to worry about being kicked out, at Jefferson and be cursed at by an attending, or at Emory and be disrespected by higher level resident.

 

[Toothextraxulation]

This is a legit topic, IMO, although one that may possibly get people bent out of shape. The hard truth is that OMFS is inherently "malignant" for a lot of reasons. Some of this is due to the work load/hours and some is because of the personalities that a surgical specialty attracts. And some is due to the history of OMFS, which is often battling plastic surgery and ENT for expanded scope surgeries, so we have to drop everything and attend to referrals and consults in a different manner than those established medical specialties. Make no mistake about it, OMFS is a demanding residency and should not be undertaken lightly by anyone.

So "malignant" is a two way street. Any program can appear to be malignant to an individual if you don't live up to the expectations put in front of you. There is a group of people that will just not work out well for OMFS. You have to be willing to sacrifice time and outside commitments, put up with potentially abrasive personality types and, above all, be a team player. If you are selfish and don't work well with teams, OMFS residency will be extremely difficult for you.

All of that out of the way, there are certainly some programs and personalities that I would personally avoid. As a previous poster said, those programs are generally well known and should be evident on the interview trail. Residents within your home program should be able to give you an idea about which programs might present a malignant atmosphere. I absolutely think that it's important to evaluate whether or not a program has multiple missing spots or fill in residents and that is the one thing that you, as an interviewee, should press programs on during the interview process. Missing spots do not necessarily imply overt malignancy, but may also indicate poor organization or poor choices of candidates by the program in the match process. Not every candidate can handle the USMLE or the rigors of medical school. Still, resident attrition is the number one indicator of an underlying problem with a program and isn't something a program can hide. High resident turnover means that there is some sort of inherent issue with the program. Also, recent turnover in the faculty range can be a sign of unrest or previous issues. Most (smart )residents are not going to come on SDN and bash other programs or their own program, because this website is really not all that confidential once you get down to it.

 

[OMS MRSAnary]

From my experience externing/interviewing a couple years ago, I can throw in some of my own feelings. I do agree that this is an important topic, as OMFS residency at any institution is tough enough without having attending/co-residents making your life miserable.

Boston University: Definitely the worst of the ones I saw. Didn't so much see attending being malignant as much as chief/senior residents literally yelling and cursing at interns/1st years. But malignancy is generally a trickle down affect, so in all likelihood there was attending involvement that I didn't have the opportunity to witness.

Temple: Not as bad as BU, but definitely got a malignant vibe from both upper level residents and attendings. I only interviewed here so my experience is limited, but I've heard similar things from other people who have externed there.

Thomas Jefferson: Residents seemed pretty chill, but I've heard nightmares from other externs regarding the treatment of residents by attendings. It's a shame because I thought it was a pretty good program otherwise. But had too many people on the interview trail tell me horror stories from their time spent at the program.

Also just to add that I wouldn't look at programs losing a resident as being a sign of malignancy. There are numerous reasons why residents leave programs (i.e. family, experience, feeling OMFS is not for them). It definitely can be a red flag though, but I would tend to think it is more due to the fact that it is not a quality training program than being because it is malignant.

Just my two cents.

 

[Tmjack]

These are the list of malignant OMFS programs, which are historically known for abusing, firing, forcing them to resign and dismissing their residents. Some of them are included b/c they recently dismissed its residents in the past few years. 15 - 20% of residents leave these programs for whatever reason. If you really doubt, then please check out the program website, and see if there is any open resident position in PGY-2 - PGY-6 level.

-Emory
-Houston
-Miami
-Case western
-Maryland
-UNC
-VCU
-Yale
-Wisconsin
-Nebraska
-Temple
-Jefferson

Here are some red flags.
-when there is an open spot in 2nd to senior level resident position
-when a program is looking for an interim intern in the middle of the year
-when a program is looking for pgy2 -5 transfer position

Omfs applicants work their butt off to get matched to OMFS residency programs. It is a long journey to go through multiple externships with sleepless nights, to crush all the exams during dental school, to ace NBME exam, and to do something else that you shine your resume. It's a lot of work. Some programs are very supportive, and properly train their residents with proper support. Sometimes, it is performance issues. Sometimes, residents become a scapegoat for political fights between different surgery departments. Sometimes, some attendings just hate their residents to death. For some certain programs, residents just end up leaving their programs for whatever reasons. If resignation or dismissal is happening consistently every couple of years to several years, then you have to be really really careful. In medicine, there is a huge lawsuit against the entire residency program and institutions when residents are forced to leave for whatever reasons. I attached an article of 20 million dollar lawsuit case at the Johns Hopkins hospital. I guess OMFS program directors are not taking it seriously, and trying to sneak themselves out of due process or lawsuits b/c dental school grads are not so familiar with systems like this. Once you are out of the program, you can never go back because your previous program director will blacklist you forever.

good luck with matching to the program that will support your journey to OMFS from the beginning to the end, support you when you are in med school, support you when you are a newbie intern, support you when you are getting your ass kicked by other MD attendings during offservice rotations, and support you so that you can be board certified.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/fired-hopkins-doctor-seeks-24m.660565/

http://www.healthleadersmedia.com/leadership/lawsuit-highlights-legal-issues-tied-firing-residents

I'm an OMFS resident at Houston. During my application cycle in 2015, I too felt that I didn’t know much about the programs I interviewed at. I do think transparency among OMFS programs is important. As far as Houston goes, we did let someone go 2 years before I started, but the reason is a lot more complex than a 1 incident ordeal or because of 1 specific attending. Most programs, including ours have protocols to dismiss a resident, so I would not deem a program malignant just because they have a spot open. Furthermore, residents get dismissed all the time in medical residencies and OMFS programs are no exception. Some individuals are simply not fit for the program or that specialty.

I do know that there are some old posts about our program/attendings being malignant, but a lot has changed in 10 years. Houston has a great attending-resident ratio for our size and each attending brings his or her own personality and teaching style. We do service a lot of hospitals, but with that comes a large scope of training, skills to manage complex patients efficiently, and also a lot of cases to cut. The culture here for attendings and residents alike is to help each other rather than hinder. Furthermore, we just added 2 non-categorical residents, a nurse practitioner, and flap fellow for next year. That means 8 interns, a NP, and a fellow! Either way, feel free to contact me with any questions about applications or our program. I would encourage anyone interested to extern here so you can see first hand.

 

[wizzzy]

From my experience externing/interviewing a couple years ago, I can throw in some of my own feelings. I do agree that this is an important topic, as OMFS residency at any institution is tough enough without having attending/co-residents making your life miserable.

Boston University: Definitely the worst of the ones I saw. Didn't so much see attending being malignant as much as chief/senior residents literally yelling and cursing at interns/1st years. But malignancy is generally a trickle down affect, so in all likelihood there was attending involvement that I didn't have the opportunity to witness.

Temple: Not as bad as BU, but definitely got a malignant vibe from both upper level residents and attendings. I only interviewed here so my experience is limited, but I've heard similar things from other people who have externed there.

Thomas Jefferson: Residents seemed pretty chill, but I've heard nightmares from other externs regarding the treatment of residents by attendings. It's a shame because I thought it was a pretty good program otherwise. But had too many people on the interview trail tell me horror stories from their time spent at the program.

Also just to add that I wouldn't look at programs losing a resident as being a sign of malignancy. There are numerous reasons why residents leave programs (i.e. family, experience, feeling OMFS is not for them). It definitely can be a red flag though, but I would tend to think it is more due to the fact that it is not a quality training program than being because it is malignant.

Just my two cents.

 

[Localnative]

"So "malignant" is a two way street. Any program can appear to be malignant to an individual if you don't live up to the expectations put in front of you. There is a group of people that will just not work out well for OMFS. You have to be willing to sacrifice time and outside commitments, put up with potentially abrasive personality types and, above all, be a team player. If you are selfish and don't work well with teams, OMFS residency will be extremely difficult for you."

Agree with this. During my 6 years, we had to let go of a resident, and a few left out of their own volition. Sometimes you really don't know what you're getting into. All the shadowing and externing in the world as a pre-dent can't prepare you for the stress of residency, especially intern and 6th year (I felt the most stressful years). One should not characterize a program as "malignant" based on attrition rate as the reasons for leaving/being let go are definitely multifactorial.

 

[OMFS4Ever]

Speaking of BU, that program has held back, or asked a resident to repeat a year for the last 3 years. Their only female resident just left or was pushed out. It's all clouded in mystery and rumor has it that legal was involved. True or not, that program probably has some issues.

 

[RoryM]

..

 

[Orthognathic2015]

i have a friend who withdrew from an OMS residency program after some serious stuff (assaulted by one of her co-residents stuff, really sad). she has okay stats (top 15% rank, CBSE>70, published in JOMS). she did another intern year after and re-applied but didn't match. she's now planning on doing another intern year and applying again.

i know i'm gonna sound like a douche, but i feel like she should give up. no one is going to accept ANYONE for ANY reason if they withdraw. any other opinions?

 

[AlbinoPolarBear]

As a program director, I would rather start fresh with a new resident than taking in a resident with a history of leaving a program. The most important thing you want in a residency is stability because having someone leaving your program is detrimental to it’s bottom line. Very hard to replace a resident. Look at Emory posting ads everywhere trying to find another chief.

As for your friend, OMS residency is tough, and there were many times during intern year that I was yelled at, called incompetent, got sleep deprived (what’s post call?), working 100+ hours a week. If I saw some of my former chiefs drowning in a lake, I would completely hesitate to help them. But I struggled through, not argue back even if it’s not my fault. You may get lucky and have all awesome coresidents, but you’re bound to come in conflict with someone. Some personalities are not made for this residency, and don’t know her complete history, but OMS is a small world, and she may have been blackballed.

 

[Orthognathic2015]

As a program director, I would rather start fresh with a new resident than taking in a resident with a history of leaving a program. The most important thing you want in a residency is stability because having someone leaving your program is detrimental to it’s bottom line. Very hard to replace a resident. Look at Emory posting ads everywhere trying to find another chief.

As for your friend, OMS residency is tough, and there were many times during intern year that I was yelled at, called incompetent, got sleep deprived (what’s post call?), working 100+ hours a week. If I saw some of my former chiefs drowning in a lake, I would completely hesitate to help them. But I struggled through, not argue back even if it’s not my fault. You may get lucky and have all awesome coresidents, but you’re bound to come in conflict with someone. Some personalities are not made for this residency, and don’t know her complete history, but OMS is a small world, and she may have been blackballed.

so you agree with me then?

 

[Awarara]

i have a friend who withdrew from an OMS residency program after some serious stuff (assaulted by one of her co-residents stuff, really sad). she has okay stats (top 15% rank, CBSE>70, published in JOMS). she did another intern year after and re-applied but didn't match. she's now planning on doing another intern year and applying again.

i know i'm gonna sound like a douche, but i feel like she should give up. no one is going to accept ANYONE for ANY reason if they withdraw. any other opinions?

not "any" reason. i know two people that withdrew for whatever reason and came back to oms some years later.

 

[vellnueve]

I don’t think you understand the use of the word intern

 

[Exodontist007]

There are both categorical and non-categorical interns. You’re referring to a non-categorical intern. A categorical intern is a resident of the program in PGY-1, also called intern year.

How can I know of any open positions?

 

[vellnueve]

Isn't the term intern reserved for those who couldn't get into an OS residency but wish to strengthen their credentials by doing a one-year of OS service for subsequent application cycle? Also, judging by the tone of your post, you sound like an OMFS resident.

The use of the term "intern" in the medical field expands far beyond OMFS.