Making quite an impression on the residents during rotation...

[Sparda29]

This is ignorant. There is so much more to reviewing a patient. How are you supposed to know if there are any issues with the meds if you do not have adequate training to recognize these issues. Pharmacy school does not fully equip you to handle patient care and the additional year (which should really be two) is necessary.

The students I precept come in thinking they know everything there is about patient care. I am not sure why the schools are letting students loose with these poor misconceptions. There is so much to learn about clinical practice. You do not know what you don't know until you are exposed to those situations.

As a preceptor, I am very insulted when students come into rotation and degrade the role of residency and are under the impression they can practice as a proficient clinical pharmacist from day 1 after graduation. Do not upset preceptors or residents by insulting their career choices.

Just go work retail.

If that's the issue then pharmacy school should be longer. Not a additional year of training at half pay for double the work. You would't even have time to moonlight retail if you did residency.

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[GoldfishPharmD]

If that's the issue then pharmacy school should be longer. Not a additional year of training at half pay for double the work. You would't even have time to moonlight retail if you did residency.

That's stupid. Why would you want to pay another years worth of tuition? With a residency, you're at least making some money.

 

[pharmgirl333]

If that's the issue then pharmacy school should be longer. Not a additional year of training at half pay for double the work. You would't even have time to moonlight retail if you did residency.

You need to actually practice to get the experience. Sitting in a classroom provides the building blocks. You need to work as a pharmacist to understand what is going on-but still be training at the same time. Just working as a clinical pharmacist after graduation is not the same as residency training.

 

[radio frequency]

You need to actually practice to get the experience. Sitting in a classroom provides the building blocks. You need to work as a pharmacist to understand what is going on-but still be training at the same time. Just working as a clinical pharmacist after graduation is not the same as residency training.

One of my best clinical preceptors never did a residency. Is his experience as a clinical pharmacist thereby invalid?

 

[Sparda29]

One of my best clinical preceptors never did a residency. Is his experience as a clinical pharmacist thereby invalid?

Yup, two of my best preceptors were dinosaurs who didn't do residency. I've met staff pharmacists with 5 year exp who know much more than a residency trained pharmacist.

 

[pharmgirl333]

One of my best clinical preceptors never did a residency. Is his experience as a clinical pharmacist thereby invalid?

That is not what I said-we are talking about different things. I think that right out of school you are not able to be a good clinical preceptor. After many, many years of experience, I think you catch up to the residency trained people if you work really hard.

 

[njac]

As someone intimately involved with the initiation and development of a new PGY-1 program, I can emphatically tell you that we are not looking at the residents as "free labor".

They increase my workload at least 50% and for the first half of the year, at the very least, I go over every single thing they do with a fine tooth comb.

But it's the right thing to do for the profession. They come out stronger than our staff pharmacists after 3+ years.

 

[confettiflyer]

I feel there's this underlying assumption in this thread/discussion that a) all residencies are the same, b) all residents are the same, and c) all OG non-residency trained clinical pharmacists are the same.

Nothing could be further than the truth.

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

I feel there's this underlying assumption in this thread/discussion that a) all residencies are the same, b) all residents are the same, and c) all OG non-residency trained clinical pharmacists are the same.

Nothing could be further than the truth.

This so hard. Everyone shares their experiences with meeting person A from XYZ pharmacy residency that sucks or having a preceptor with no residency experienced that rocked. You're only seeing an extremely small fraction pharmacists. I've seen both sides. I've seen residency trained people that were awesome and some that sucked. I've met nonresidency trained staff pharmacists that are 10x better than any other the residency trained people I've met and those that have been staff pharmacists for years that suck and play on their iPad inbetween order verification.

Because of this, I don't judge people on if they've done a residency or not. I judge them on the quality of their work. A residency doesn't automatically make you awesome and I don't think any reasonable person in here thinks that.

 

[gwarm01]

This so hard. Everyone shares their experiences with meeting person A from XYZ pharmacy residency that sucks or having a preceptor with no residency experienced that rocked. You're only seeing an extremely small fraction pharmacists. I've seen both sides. I've seen residency trained people that were awesome and some that sucked. I've met nonresidency trained staff pharmacists that are 10x better than any other the residency trained people I've met and those that have been staff pharmacists for years that suck and play on their iPad inbetween order verification.

Because of this, I don't judge people on if they've done a residency or not. I judge them on the quality of their work. A residency doesn't automatically make you awesome and I don't think any reasonable person in here thinks that.

This is the most well reasoned post in this thread. You should judge a pharmacist by the quality of their work, not solely by their credentials. Residencies are not yet mandatory, so it is frustrating to see some pharmacists act like it is impossible to get a hospital staffing job, continue to self-study, and be a capable clinician in time. I've seen it happen myself, just as I have seen PGY2's who were unable to exercise any clinical judgement on their own. I've also seen pharmacists with years of experience get completely overshadowed by new grads after about six months of experience, simply because the new grads were more motivated and capable.

I feel like pharmacy is very much a field where you should judge individuals on a case-by-case basis. Our job is not something so complicated that I would say several years of residency are required (compared to something like surgery), but it is also so nuanced and detail oriented that four years of school isn't enough to throw someone into practice and expect them to excel. When you take into consideration the difference in quality of many schools and residencies, it can become even more difficult to ascertain who will thrive and who will fail.

 

[BenJammin]

You need to actually practice to get the experience. Sitting in a classroom provides the building blocks. You need to work as a pharmacist to understand what is going on-but still be training at the same time. Just working as a clinical pharmacist after graduation is not the same as residency training.

You are dead wrong. Not only are you wrong, you contradict yourself in the first sentence. If actually practicing clinical pharmacy gives you the experience then how can you say working as a clinical pharmacist isn't the same as residency training?

Oh right. Because working as a clinical pharmacist > residency training. Amen to that.

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

You are dead wrong. Not only are you wrong, you contradict yourself in the first sentence. If actually practicing clinical pharmacy gives you the experience then how can you say working as a clinical pharmacist isn't the same as residency training?

Oh right. Because working as a clinical pharmacist > residency training. Amen to that.

Why? A brand new fresh graduate isn't going to hit the ground running when they start working and neither is a brand new pharmacy resident. Hopefully when it's close to the year coming up, both can manage on their own. Don't see the need to bash one or the other.

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

This is something I'll always dislike about my profession is the need for everyone to tear each other down. Retail vs hospital. Non-residency trained vs residency trained. The end goal is and should be the same. Caring for the patient. Your training shouldn't matter if you can do the job and do it right. Maybe I just don't care to beat my chest and dance around screaming which group is better than the other. Oh well.

 

[Digsbe]

I don't think it's necessarily tearing each other down to recognize enhanced qualifications or training to do certain jobs. I do think pharmacy school has well prepared me to provide patient care in a retail or staff hospital setting (I'm doing a rotation now where most of my duties are hospital staff related). However, if I were to be thrust into an oncology position or working on an internal medicine team I definitely think residency or years of experience would be helpful.

Residency is good, from my understanding as a student weighing these choices right now. I've talked to some residents and they say it's almost like a more intense continuation of your P4 year APPE's only they are focused more so in clinical areas where you rotate through your hospital and work on different teams. You're also exposed more to clinical research and almost always have a research project you are to work on and publish by the end of your year. I think they provide a lot of experience and teach more independence and overall are a good thing. My only real complaint is that residency trained pharmacists typically don't make any more money than their counterparts that got jobs straight out of school. It's not, to my knowledge, financially the best decision but it is pretty much necessary if you want a fulfilling clinical job at most institutions now.

Just my perspective as a P4

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

I don't think it's necessarily tearing each other down to recognize enhanced qualifications or training to do certain jobs. I do think pharmacy school has well prepared me to provide patient care in a retail or staff hospital setting (I'm doing a rotation now where most of my duties are hospital staff related). However, if I were to be thrust into an oncology position or working on an internal medicine team I definitely think residency or years of experience would be helpful.

Residency is good, from my understanding as a student weighing these choices right now. I've talked to some residents and they say it's almost like a more intense continuation of your P4 year APPE's only they are focused more so in clinical areas where you rotate through your hospital and work on different teams. You're also exposed more to clinical research and almost always have a research project you are to work on and publish by the end of your year. I think they provide a lot of experience and teach more independence and overall are a good thing. My only real complaint is that residency trained pharmacists typically don't make any more money than their counterparts that got jobs straight out of school. It's not, to my knowledge, financially the best decision but it is pretty much necessary if you want a fulfilling clinical job at most institutions now.

Just my perspective as a P4

It's the "clinical pharmacist > residency training" comments that I feel like are tearing each other down.

 

[Deja]

It's the "clinical pharmacist > residency training" comments that I feel like are tearing each other down.

i thought the original intend of this argument was money based... and if what you said also hold true, that you shouldn't judge a person on wether they have done a residency or not, then there is absolutely no reason to work a year at half pay

also I find it funny that people diss retail cz they work in hospital... why does that even matter, for me, work is work.... I live in a metro area of cali, enjoying life, majority of my friends doesn't even work in medical fields, people take their job and perceived "prestige" a little too seriously on here lol

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

i thought the original intend of this argument was money based... and if what you said also hold true, that you shouldn't judge a person on wether they have done a residency or not, then there is absolutely no reason to work a year at half pay

also I find it funny that people diss retail cz they work in hospital... why does that even matter, for me, work is work.... I live in a metro area of cali, enjoying life, majority of my friends doesn't even work in medical fields, people take their job and perceived "prestige" a little too seriously on here lol

What are you going on about? Did you quote the wrong person? I've been trying to promote peace in this thread. Did you even read what I wrote or are you just going off for no reason? There are reasons to "work a year at half pay". You may disagree, but that's fine. At this time, you're free not to do a residency and please don't if you don't want to. Other people would for different reasons. One you want to become a specialist. I'm completing my PGY2 and got a specialist position, which has been my goal since starting pharmacy school. There's no chance that I would have gotten a specialist position without a residency at this time or as a brand new graduate. Secondly, most places are requiring people to have PGY1s to work in the hospital, so even if someone doesn't necessarily want to do a PGY1, they figure it's their best bet in getting something outside of retail.

And who in this thread is dissing retail? Are you feeling inferior that you have to bring that up cause I haven't seen anyone say anything bad about retail workers, but okay.

 

[pharmgirl333]

i thought the original intend of this argument was money based... and if what you said also hold true, that you shouldn't judge a person on wether they have done a residency or not, then there is absolutely no reason to work a year at half pay

also I find it funny that people diss retail cz they work in hospital... why does that even matter, for me, work is work.... I live in a metro area of cali, enjoying life, majority of my friends doesn't even work in medical fields, people take their job and perceived "prestige" a little too seriously on here lol

Yikes where did all this hostility come from? I agree with Goldfish, you must have insecurity about your career path. This has nothing to do with retail. If you want to work in a hospital setting and not do a residency, that is your decision. But in this job market, it will be increasingly difficult to secure a specialist position without those years of training. I have completed 2 years of residency and know this has given me more experience than just clinical staffing would have. The difference between the pharmacists in our hospital that have completed one vs two years of training is very large when comparing their knowledge bases. Even 10 years out from training it is a huge difference.

 

[FarmD711]

Yikes where did all this hostility come from? I agree with Goldfish, you must have insecurity about your career path. This has nothing to do with retail. If you want to work in a hospital setting and not do a residency, that is your decision. But in this job market, it will be increasingly difficult to secure a specialist position without those years of training. I have completed 2 years of residency and know this has given me more experience than just clinical staffing would have. The difference between the pharmacists in our hospital that have completed one vs two years of training is very large when comparing their knowledge bases. Even 10 years out from training it is a huge difference.

Just a guess here, but perhaps from the post on the previous page where you said:

"As a preceptor, I am very insulted when students come into rotation and degrade the role of residency and are under the impression they can practice as a proficient clinical pharmacist from day 1 after graduation. Do not upset preceptors or residents by insulting their career choices.

Just go work retail."

 

[Sparda29]

That's stupid. Why would you want to pay another years worth of tuition? With a residency, you're at least making some money.

Or they could do what Touro does. Cut out the usual P1 year courses and make them prerequisites. Didactic courses are P1 and P2 year, and you do 2 years of rotations.

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

Or they could do what Touro does. Cut out the usual P1 year courses and make them prerequisites. Didactic courses are P1 and P2 year, and you do 2 years of rotations.

I would have liked that idea. I did meet someone from Touro and he told me he didn't think he got enough learning from he classroom setting and was behind his coresidents, so I dunno. The idea is nice at least.

 

[Sparda29]

I would have liked that idea. I did meet someone from Touro and he told me he didn't think he got enough learning from he classroom setting and was behind his coresidents, so I dunno. The idea is nice at least.

I think I learned more during my first advanced rotation as opposed to 2 years of didactics.

 

[Deja]

What are you going on about? Did you quote the wrong person? I've been trying to promote peace in this thread. Did you even read what I wrote or are you just going off for no reason? There are reasons to "work a year at half pay". You may disagree, but that's fine. At this time, you're free not to do a residency and please don't if you don't want to. Other people would for different reasons. One you want to become a specialist. I'm completing my PGY2 and got a specialist position, which has been my goal since starting pharmacy school. There's no chance that I would have gotten a specialist position without a residency at this time or as a brand new graduate. Secondly, most places are requiring people to have PGY1s to work in the hospital, so even if someone doesn't necessarily want to do a PGY1, they figure it's their best bet in getting something outside of retail.

And who in this thread is dissing retail? Are you feeling inferior that you have to bring that up cause I haven't seen anyone say anything bad about retail workers, but okay.

nah i wasn't been hostile at all, was actually pretty calm when i wrote it lol and I wasn't disagreeing with what you wrote, was just mentioning some of the inconsistency in this whole argument by everyone.... example, when you said "Because of this, I don't judge people on if they've done a residency or not." which means theres no reason to do a year of residency if you are not going to judge a person based on it, i have no feeling about it either way

as for people dissing retail, FarmD711 already quoted one instance, pretty sure there are other instances too (and in general of ppl posting on here), that one wasn't directed at you, but no point at making a 2nd post so combined the 2 comment