Majority of medical graduates are women according to the BMA

[1Path]

http://news.independent.co.uk/health/article2697822.ece

At least that's the case in England. What's disturbing to me is that 48% of them wanted to train less than full-time a some point during their training. I guess I'm just wondering how outside of the first 2 years of med school, exactly how that works.

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[mshheaddoc]

Doesn't concern me:

1) average age has increased - appears more non trads so a work-life balance is needed

2) "Almost half (48 per cent) said they wanted to train less than full-time at some point, compared with 15 per cent of men." Which leads ME to assume that this means when they start having kids which yeah, you'd be working less than full-time but that doesn't mean it would be for the whole training but sounds to me just for a period which would make sense. I don't know what their "leave of absence/maternity laws" are there. If someone does then that would give us more insight in the issue.

Working part-time or less than full-time is becoming a way of life for not just women here in the US. Flex time is popular as many are realizing that this world has us bound in an electronic socity and tied into work 24/7.

I am all for women who want to work part time to take care of their kids while they need it. Not everyone has the money when they have young kids for a nanny/childcare. Many women end up returning back to their profession when their cihldren enter school as well. Or some women have had their kids THEN went into medicine.

With women on the rise in medical professions I'm glad that there are changes being advocated but ironically there are just as many women and men working in the profession. You don't see the men complaining about spending time with their familes

 

[1Path]

Working part-time or less than full-time is becoming a way of life for not just women here in the US.

I think some definition of part-time is warrented. From what I've seen part-time in medicine is at least 30 hours/week and usually 40. So what works for say a secretary working part-time isn't applicable to a career in medicine.

Another point for me personally is that I'll NEVER again see a female surgeon who recently did parts of her residency part-time. Sure this is a sample size of 1, but where potentially life threatening surgery is concerned, one was all I needed.

I am all for women who want to work part time to take care of their kids while they need it. Not everyone has the money when they have young kids for a nanny/childcare.

I'm all for women being realistic. Part-time work and medicine just don't mix so I think anyone who wants to work part-time should serve the field of medicine an auxillary capacity ONLY.

As for the money issue, I say if you don't have the money to hire a childcare provider then maybe you shouldn't have kids until you can. Besides, isn't this what we say to poor women? Why should the educated be treated any differently?

You don't see the men complaining about spending time with their familes

I've never complained about spending time with my family either. But then I made sure I didn't have more kids than I could realistically handle with a demanding career which is by far the smartest thing a professional woman could do. Even with substantial resources for things like childcare, children need the one thing that no Nanny could EVER replace and that's at least some time with Mom and Dad.

 

[1Path]

According to the adcom member I spoke with today, over 50% of medical schools entering classes are female. Then he asked me what I thought about it.

I told him that I first needed to think about how I was going to word what I was about to say so as not to offend the feminist in me. I told him I wasn't sure that was a good idea and that 20 years from now, the medical profession would regret admitting so many women. Then he asked why. I said that women are making demands of the medical profession, part-time residencies, extended (1+ years) leave from their training/position ect., which is going to significanly affect the developement of their skill set. And that I probably wouldn't want for example, a physician that completed a part-time surgical residency over 12 years.

Honestly, I didn't know how he was going to react then he said that he agreed and that he personally wants the doctor that has the best training "working" on him. In other words he, as I would as well, make the association however right or wrong, between the number of hours spent training/practicing and skills acquired.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I suggest you read up on how their medical training works, it might help you understand why many work part-time. I had someone explain it to me and pretty much their training is ALOT longer there then here.

So I guess you're proclaiming that those in research are working "part-time" are clinical deprived as well?

I really find your logic is flawed and that the feminist in you (and your pessimistic views) aren't giving women a fair chance and I'm offended by that (as are quite a few others who repeatedly have responded to your other threads on this issue). I know you are expressing your views and I respect that, but you are using a system to support your finding that IS NOT like the system used here that we are familiar with. Can you come up with evidence based in the US to support your opinions?

Why do we need to work harder in order to have more "experience"? So working 30 hrs is different than 40 hrs? Working 20 hrs is different than 40 hrs? You're still seeing patients. Its funny that even MEN are doing the part-time thing for outside ventures now (such as advisement boards and the like) so how is your response to that?

I guess overall I don't see the huge issue of clinical depravity that you seem to claim. Do you know anyone who completed a part-time surgery residency over 12 years? I sure don't. I know women that have done partial part-time years or other residencies part-time but some had extenuating circumstances (for instance, one her husband died and she was now a single mother). I feel you're blaming women when we have to work now in order to survive in this world to have the best for our family. The world is changing as we put in more "work, work, work" and people are sick of it. Its not just medicine. Flex time is something overall in various professions. They still work the same number of hours overall in the profession, why does it have to be condensed? Are you saying that someone who took a year off for health reasons in medical school is not as competent as the person who did it in 4? Or how about the new 3 years FM programs that are coming out?

And for fair warning, I'm just trying to have a peaceful discussion. Not heated as I know sometimes the debates can get. But these are my thoughts and questions (and some are concerns). I don't want to work all the time. I want time to be with my family. I don't want to do surgery, so why are the examples always the extreme?

 

[1Path]

I suggest you read up on how their medical training works, it might help you understand why many work part-time. I had someone explain it to me and pretty much their training is ALOT longer there then here.

I've been doing primarily medical research for over 18 years, working primarily for Physicians conducting research. Not one of them worked part-time including the women I worked for. No I think this "part-time" thing is a characteristic of a generation (born after 1970) that wants to have their cake and eat it too and the expenseof everyone else.

So I guess you're proclaiming that those in research are working "part-time" are clinical deprived as well? ?

It's going to be almost impossible to have a debate with asinine questions. And given all the infractions I receive for making comments others make all the time with no penality, I'm sure you're quite familiar with my typical reaction to asinine questions......

I really find your logic is flawed and that the feminist in you (and your pessimistic views) aren't giving women a fair chance and I'm offended by that (as are quite a few others who repeatedly have responded to your other threads on this issue).

I'd like to know if there are any men out there that think myposition is "flawed" because obviously the adcom member I met with disagreed.

Why do we need to work harder in order to have more "experience"? So working 30 hrs is different than 40 hrs? Working 20 hrs is different than 40 hrs? You're still seeing patients. Its funny that even MEN are doing the part-time thing for outside ventures now (such as advisement boards and the like) so how is your response to that??

This argumentis simplistic and flawed. Exactly how far and in how many other careers should we take this "view"? Medicine is NOT a part-time activity, nor was it designed to be. Want part-time? Then become a nurse, PA, OT, PT ect. Anyone ever wonder why med school isn't also part-time? Geez, why not make elemetary school, middles school, and high school part-time as well.

I know women that have done partial part-time years or other residencies part-time but some had extenuating circumstances (for instance, one her husband died and she was now a single mother). ??

Did I state that slack shouldn't be cut for folks with extenuating circumstances? I'd LOVE to see a debate I'm involved with not ALWAYS consist of lame assumtions like this.

I feel you're blaming women when we have to work now in order to survive in this world to have the best for our family.

Let me give you a little history lesson. Black women have been working since slavery, but I can't recall neither the agnst (not that ANYONE would have listened) or self-centeredness I see in a LOT of 20 something working women today.

Women need to make a decision. Either have more than 3 kids and do something other than medicine, have more than 3 and wait until they're grown to embarke upon a demanding career, or have fewer kids and have a demanding career. But do NOT expect the rest of the world to have to cater to your poor family planning decisions.

I don't want to work all the time. I want time to be with my family

Then why are you even interested in medicine in the first place? Medicine requires a lifelong interest in learning and a commitment to being the best doctor you can be.

 

[Pemberley]

So I guess you're proclaiming that those in research are working "part-time" are clinical deprived as well?

Good point, Mushy.

I guess overall I don't see the huge issue of clinical depravity that you seem to claim... I don't want to do surgery, so why are the examples always the extreme?

Many people have the tendency to villify those who disagree with them; to ascribe their different opinion to profound and vicious character flaws (in this case, to selfishness and reckless disregard for the welfare of both patients and children). Extreme examples make such villification much easier.

1Path, I think you and the rest of us may have to agree to disagree on whether a part-time year or two, and reasonable work hours for most of the career, constitute a breach of patient care and professional ethics. We think they don't. You think they do. That's probably where it's going to stay.

As fascinating as it might be to debate the issue, I don't have time & energy to do it well in any fashion (hence the agree-to-disagree), and I REALLY don't have the energy to do it in the combative and bitter fashion toward which the above posts were trending. I join Mushy in wishing for a more charitable tone of posting.

 

[1Path]

Path, I think you and the rest of us may have to agree to disagree on whether a part-time year or two, and reasonable work hours for most of the career, constitute a breach of patient care and professional ethics..

You have CLEARLY misread my posts. I'm in no way referring to short term breaks but for some reason you and others are hell bent on making assumptions that simply aren't there.

There's a hellva difference between "part-time for a year or 2" and part-time to infinity and beyond. For clarifications purposes, I'm referring to women who choose the latter option.

I join Mushy in wishing for a more charitable tone of posting.

Have you heard the saying that charity starts as "home"?

As I continue to successful move along my career path toward an MD/PhD, I'm starting to loose interest at an exponential pace with participating in debates with a bunch of conservative minded/anti affirmative action, spoiled/entitlement attitudinal, intellectual kiss a$$es, who not only balk at dissenting opinions but who cowardly try to cover up their disparaging retorts with slick a$$ attempts to be looking for an atmosphere of truth, peace and honesty in a debate. To that I say, Pluuueeezzze and maybe I should go for a JD instead!

 

[TexasRose]

I'm starting to loose interest at an exponential pace with participating in debates with a bunch of conservative minded/anti affirmative action, spoiled/entitlement attitudinal, intellectual kiss a$$es, who not only balk at dissenting opinions but who cowardly try to cover up their disparaging retorts with slick a$$ attempts to be looking for an atmosphere of truth, peace and honesty in a debate. To that I say, Pluuueeezzze and maybe I should go for a JD instead!

Does that mean that you will stop posting here and other places where you are clearly never happy with the responses you get?

Your anti-woman in the workforce diatribes are tired and insulting. What you choose to do with your life and how you choose to live it is your business. We have no interest in someone who would like to see all women with a husband and children pushed back into the kitchen. If you want to live your life like a man, so be it. Don't insist every woman needs to behave that way.

Come back and talk to us about who should get medical training and how it should get done when you've actually been accepted to an MD program.

 

[Empi]

I believe we, as a society, would benefit from offering many pathays to a caeer in medicine.

Personally, I think there is a place for men and women who want to find balance between work and family that does not sacrifice one at the alter of the other. In the past, gender tended to determine which one got sacrificed. It is time to embrace balance and said balance will look different when seen in various people.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

All I can say is not where I am. My school is only 40% female and has been at that number for years. Consequently I'm not too worried about women taking over the medical field.

 

[pakbabydoll]

All I can say is not where I am. My school is only 40% female and has been at that number for years. Consequently I'm not too worried about women taking over the medical field.

then again thats just your school. I wonder how many women actually look for a career in Oklahoma. Look at some big city universities like NYU, UF, and Forest Wake. They either have a 50% 50% male, females population or more females then males.

 

[mshheaddoc]

then again thats just your school. I wonder how many women actually look for a career in Oklahoma. Look at some big city universities like NYU, UF, and Forest Wake. They either have a 50% 50% male, females population or more females then males.

I wouldn't generalize to oklahom as their DO school consistently have ~45%+ women.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I wouldn't generalize to oklahom as their DO school consistently have ~45%+ women.

Yeah, I'm really curious as to why that is. Our percentages pretty much mirror our applicant pool so I do feel like women are somehow being discouraged from applying.

As for the general trend, total female allopathic enrollment has never reached 50%. It's close, but it's not there. I haven't seen the figures for osteopathic enrollment. So yeah, based on the total figures and the underenrollment of women at my school, I can say we haven't quite taken over.

 

[efex101]

I grew up in Spain and visit there at least once a year....and hence what I am about to say is relevant only to that country...there *is* some "concern" in Spain that with over 50% of medical graduates being women....*and* women (in Spain) wanting better hours there will be a shortage of physicians soon. I am all for women rights, the ability to take care of children, etc....but at some point we DO have to be realistic about what medicine is. In Spain many women physicians only want to work from about 8-3 M-F and no weekends, etc...this IMHO is just not realistic. Now, Spain has a type of socialized healthcare and this 8-3 may be more doable than let's say here....

 

[Pemberley]

I grew up in Spain and visit there at least once a year....and hence what I am about to say is relevant only to that country...there *is* some "concern" in Spain that with over 50% of medical graduates being women....*and* women (in Spain) wanting better hours there will be a shortage of physicians soon. I am all for women rights, the ability to take care of children, etc....but at some point we DO have to be realistic about what medicine is. In Spain many women physicians only want to work from about 8-3 M-F and no weekends, etc...this IMHO is just not realistic. Now, Spain has a type of socialized healthcare and this 8-3 may be more doable than let's say here....

In France, they consider it a matter of basic human rights that nobody, male or female, should work more than a 35-hour-week (which of course is probably one of the bases of their current economic crisis, but why let facts get in the way of a good theory?)... has any of that attitude seeped over the pyrenees?

 

[LexiLuthor]

Maybe doctors (both male and female) pressing for shorter working hours will lead to to change in medicine, as opposed to a terrible shortage of doctors... the number of medical students trained each year in the US may increase, more foreign grads may find jobs in the US, NPs and PAs may start to fill more primary care provider roles. Who knows?

If a person wants to work part time or less than full time and they find an employer who's cool with that, or they open a practice with limited hours and are successful... well, that's the reality of how the American workplace is for pretty much any other profession. People choose what they want to do (or not do) with their degree. It doesn't shock me that it's happening in the medical field. Wanting to be a doctor doesn't automatically mean wanting to work 60-80 hours a week for your entire adult life, and it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is a worse doctor. Looking at medicine as a business, if the market will bear it, people can do what they want.

Having balance in life between work and a personal life is something a lot of people are concerned with. Men are definitely concerned with lifestyle and spending time with family as well. Just because things have been a certain way in the past doesn't mean it's the way it will stay, or how it HAS to be.

 

[efex101]

Although this sounds great in reality it will not happen unless they actually double the number of medical students graduating. The truth is that hospitals and clinics need to be manned 24/7 and if 1/2 of the healthcare profession wants to work 20-40 hrs/week with weekends and holidays off, well, they will have to have a HUGE increase in trainees and/or others folks will have to work 100 hrs/week. There are just "some" careers out there that are not conducive to having less than 60hrs/week, it is not just medicine. Military and law enforcement are also this way. Pre-meds need to really think hard why they are coming into this field. Going in with assumptions is not a good thing. Sure, some folks will be able to find a part-time job but these are in the minority. Most employers do NOT want or do not encourage part-time work. I am not saying that this should not be the goal of anyone but to go in thinking it will happen is what is flawed.