M.D.s and D.O.s Moving toward a Single, Unified Accreditation System for GME

[TriagePreMed]

Also the AOA needs to end the COMLEX. We need all DOs to start taking the USMLE so that they can be compared to MD students.

I agree with this. I would be in favor for the COMLEX being an additional test that only tests competency on Osteopathic Manual Manipulation.

I have some skepticism about them doing this any time soon as the board pass rate might before much lower, but with the merge, I can also see the acgme pushing for this.

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[MedPR]

I agree with this. I would be in favor for the COMLEX being an additional test that only tests competency on Osteopathic Manual Manipulation.

I have some skepticism about them doing this any time soon as the board pass rate might before much lower, but with the merge, I can also see the acgme pushing for this.

Though I agree, I also don't see DO schools (or the AOA) making OMM competency optional. I mean, that would be almost equivalent to allowing M3s who want to be pathologists or psychiatrists skip Step 2 CS since they won't really be using those PE skills in their career.

 

[HalfListic]

4 hours a week of minimal intensity studying in a class is still time you could have spent studying for the USMLE.
And sure, keeping DO residencies for DOs only would be great, but it'll create more antagonistic feelings. I'd rather some MDs be let in, see that DOs aren't idiots up close so then when they go on and become residency directors they show DOs love.

Also the AOA needs to end the COMLEX. We need all DOs to start taking the USMLE so that they can be compared to MD students.

While I agree with the sentiment above...I feel like the reality is the below. At least for the foreseeable future. Just my opinion, but anything else seems pretty unlikely.

Though I agree, I also don't see DO schools (or the AOA) making OMM competency optional. I mean, that would be almost equivalent to allowing M3s who want to be pathologists or psychiatrists skip Step 2 CS since they won't really be using those PE skills in their career.

 

[hallowmann]

...So for those of you who think you may want to emigrate to Spain, Portugal, Ukraine, Croatia etc. midway through your career, you might want to re-think DO. For the rest of us, just go where you get in, and where you think you will be the happiest...

I think this is the only real issue. I have looked into the process pretty extensively, because I am one of those few people who at least contemplate moving somewhere that does not recognize the DO degree. That being said, I'm sure I'm in the minority, and I'm sure if I end up going DO, I'd be able to find some country where I could move to that does recognize the degree.

I think its valuable to know the issues. Working with non-profits abroad is outside the scope of getting full practice rights, they are allowed to practice without getting licensure in those countries. That being said, if one truly wanted to relocate for the rest of their life, their degree may be an issue.

Its also true that most FMGs/IMGs face the same issues. Just because a degree says MD doesn't mean its accepted the same way a US MD is. A lot of the Caribbean schools use rhetoric like "We confer the MD degree, the medical degree most recognized throughout the world." This is technically true, but its certainly not true that all places that accept the MD degree will recognize an MD degree from those schools. Its for that reason that no matter what, if someone intends to relocate, they should look specifically into whether or not individuals from their school were able to successfully practice in other countries independent of some non-profit organization.

If all goes as planned, the current residencies that are AOA accredited will.become acgme accredited, which will mean that there will be more residency spots for Caribbean kids. However, if aoa programs remain distinct or very DO friendly, and if in the future both the acgme and aoa match occur at the same time, then the number of DOs applying for traditional acgme residencies will likely increase, which may displace some of the Caribbean kids from the match. Right now, the aoa match is February 11th and the acgme match in march 15th. No one really knows what's going to happen.

That may be true, but if less DOs apply to the AOA match, then there will be AOA spots open to MDs, and even Caribbean MDs (because they have to be filled after all). Really the only statistics that would actually affect the Caribbean MDs are the ones relating to residency seats and US medical graduates. If the same amount of graduates apply for the same amount of seats (after the merger), then the same number of FMGs/US-IMGs will still match. That being said, the fact that US MGs are increasing and residency spots are not increasing as much means that there will be less spots for FMGs/US-IMGs in the future (regardless of the merger). In other words, the merger really only really affects DOs, which is fine with me.

I would also like to know if DOs would be required to take both comlex and usmle.

If the AOA were to drop the COMLEX, then they might as well drop OMM altogether, because that is essentially the only difference in material of the two exams. That being said, I highly doubt the DO community is ready to do something like that. It might be wishful thinking, but maybe they could replace the COMLEX with some shorter exam that only tests for OMM and osteopathic theory, then require all DO students to take the USMLE and that supplemental exam. But again, I think that's unlikely.

Also the AOA needs to end the COMLEX. We need all DOs to start taking the USMLE so that they can be compared to MD students.

What's funny is that a lot of programs already have a metric for comparing COMLEX scores to USMLE scores. To be safe of course, graduates going for the historically MD residencies (I imagine that they'd be called that in the future ) would have to take the USMLE to account for the programs that don't have a similar metric. That said, I think with the merger we'd see more programs using a similar metric. Whether that would ultimately mean less DO discrimination in competitive programs is still uncertain, as that is too highly program specific. Only time will tell.

While I agree with the sentiment above...I feel like the reality is the below. At least for the foreseeable future. Just my opinion, but anything else seems pretty unlikely.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the more distant future MDs could take workshops/seminars/exams in OMM to increase their competitiveness for historically DO programs, but that seems like a it would be a long time from now, and most of us will likely be established physicians by then .

 

[MedPR]

What's funny is that a lot of programs already have a metric for comparing COMLEX scores to USMLE scores. To be safe of course, graduates going for the historically MD residencies (I imagine that they'd be called that in the future ) would have to take the USMLE to account for the programs that don't have a similar metric. That said, I think with the merger we'd see more programs using a similar metric. Whether that would ultimately mean less DO discrimination in competitive programs is still uncertain, as that is too highly program specific. Only time will tell.

True, but a metric for comparison will never be as good as having everyone take the same test.

 

[hallowmann]

True, but a metric for comparison will never be as good as having everyone take the same test.

Of course, that is true. This again would be another reason why DOs would opt to take the USMLE even if they are applying to DO friendly, historically MD residencies (yup, I think I'm going to call them that for all my posts in this thread).

 

[MedPR]

Of course, that is true. This again would be another reason why DOs would opt to take the USMLE even if they are applying to DO friendly historically MD residencies.

Sure, but many DOs know that DOs tend to do worse on the USMLE and may feel it's a safer option to take the COMLEX and rely on the matrix to do the comparison. That option shouldn't be available imo. If DOs want to go to an ACGME residency, they should be required to take the USMLE just like the MDs are.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

Sure, but many DOs know that DOs tend to do worse on the USMLE and may feel it's a safer option to take the COMLEX and rely on the matrix to do the comparison. That option shouldn't be available imo. If DOs want to go to an ACGME residency, they should be required to take the USMLE just like the MDs are.

All residencies will be ACGME after 2015. It's unfair for DOs to study and pay for 2 boards.

 

[MedPR]

All residencies will be ACGME after 2015. It's unfair for DOs to study and pay for 2 boards.

Is this really your argument? Don't standardize applications because it's unfair? People choose to go to DO school. It's unfair that neurosurgeons have a 7 year residency. That doesn't mean it should be shortened. You make a choice and accept what comes with it.

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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Is this really your argument? Don't standardize applications because it's unfair? People choose to go to DO school. It's unfair that neurosurgeons have a 7 year residency. That doesn't mean it should be shortened. You make a choice and accept what comes with it.

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Pretty sure he's saying get rid of the COMLEX and teach for the USMLE and it's all good.

 

[SLC]

Sure, but many DOs know that DOs tend to do worse on the USMLE and may feel it's a safer option to take the COMLEX and rely on the matrix to do the comparison. That option shouldn't be available imo. If DOs want to go to an ACGME residency, they should be required to take the USMLE just like the MDs are.

I hear this all the time, and I don't doubt it to be true. But I have to say that at least at this point in my prep, I'm more scared of the COMLEX-1 than the USMLE-1 (I'm taking both).

The USMLE seems to be so much more straightforward with well written questions that rarely leave you wondering what's being asked. Not so much with the COMLEX. I've heard that from folks who've taken both, and the practice material from both the NBME and NBOME seem to reenforce that idea for me as well.

 

[MedPR]

I hear this all the time, and I don't doubt it to be true. But I have to say that at least at this point in my prep, I'm more scared of the COMLEX-1 than the USMLE-1 (I'm taking both).

The USMLE seems to be so much more straightforward with well written questions that rarely leave you wondering what's being asked. Not so much with the COMLEX. I've heard that from folks who've taken both, and the practice material from both the NBME and NBOME seem to reenforce that idea for me as well.

This is exactly what I've heard about the COMLEX on many prior occasions. It contributes to my confusion why the self selecting DOs who sit for the USMLE don't do well (on average).

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[SLC]

Pretty sure he's saying get rid of the COMLEX and teach for the USMLE and it's all good.

I understand why people say this, but it makes no sense. We are taught for the USMLE and COMLEX, it's not like they cover different topics. The ONLY real difference is the addition of OMM on the COMLEX.

But everyone that I've known that took and did well on both has said that when you are ready for one, you're ready for the other. The material on the USMLE is all tested (or at least fair game) on the COMLEX as well.

 

[SLC]

This is exactly what I've heard about the COMLEX on many prior occasions. It contributes to my confusion why the self selecting DOs who sit for the USMLE don't do well (on average).

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I think both you and I know exactly why, but it's not PC to come right out and say it.

There are plenty of DO students who do very well on USMLE, probably roughly in proportion to the folks who did very well on MCAT. And no, I'm not speaking to the supposed "correlation" between the two either.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Someone start a petition already...

 

[MedPR]

I think both you and I know exactly why, but it's not PC to come right out and say it. But there are plenty of DO students who do very well on USMLE, probably roughly in proportion to the folks who did very well on MCAT. And no, I'm not speaking to the supposed "correlation" between the two either.

I would be more inclined to use that reasoning (the one we won't mention) if the DOs who take the USMLE weren't self selecting. If for some reason COMLEX goes away and every US medical student takes USMLE only and the DO average is still lower than the MD average then I'll probably have a harder time not jumping to that conclusion.

As it stands, I strongly believe that all cocky premeds are knocked down a few pegs when they get to med school. Because of that, I think most med students are realistic about their abilities and therefore the ones who choose to take the USMLE (which I've heard is more detail oriented and in that way somewhat more difficult than the COMLEX) are the ones who realistically can do very well.

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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I understand why people say this, but it makes no sense. We are taught for the USMLE and COMLEX, it's not like they cover different topics. The ONLY real difference is the addition of OMM on the COMLEX.

But everyone that I've known that took and did well on both has said that when you are ready for one, you're ready for the other. The material on the USMLE is all tested (or at least fair game) on the COMLEX as well.

Apparently DO schools put more emphasis on micro and less on pharmacology or something.

 

[SLC]

As it stands, I strongly believe that all cocky premeds are knocked down a few pegs when they get to med school. Because of that, I think most med students are realistic about their abilities and therefore the ones who choose to take the USMLE (which I've heard is more detail oriented and in that way somewhat more difficult than the COMLEX) are the ones who realistically can do very well.

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The bolded is what you might logically think, but I'm not so sure it's always the case.

I think there are plenty who think it's the only way to get to where they want to go. So they take it regardless. Though I do think you're probably right in implying that nobody is totally honest with themselves about their preparation.

But I honestly don't think the USMLE is any more difficult, but I haven't taken the actual test yet so maybe I'll be proven wrong. I'll just say that my UWorld performance is ahead of my COMBANK performance by a reasonable amount, and it's not the OMM that's bringing me down on COMBANK, it's that I often feel like I don't necessarily know just what the question is getting at.

 

[MedPR]

Apparently DO schools put more emphasis on micro and less on pharmacology or something.

I haven't heard that, but I think the USMLE is like the MCAT in that the proportion of stuff you get on your test will vary. So, even if DO schools emphasize one topic more than another that doesn't put DOs at an inherent disadvantage.

Plus step 1 is largely self study anyway.

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[SLC]

Apparently DO schools put more emphasis on micro and less on pharmacology or something.

Maybe, but you still get a complete education in both, so if you don't know enough pharm or micro for either test it's really your own problem IMO.

I will say that I think my Micro professors test us a lot harder than our Pharm teachers though. But the questions on both subjects in the practice tests, as well as the question banks seem similar in my opinion.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Maybe, but you still get a complete education in both, so if you don't know enough pharm or micro for either test it's really your own problem IMO.

I will say that I think my Micro professors test us a lot harder than our Pharm teachers though. But the questions on both subjects in the practice tests, as well as the question banks seem similar in my opinion.

Either way, having to do 2 tests is a whole lot easier than having to do USMLE 1, 2 + COMLEX 1, 2.

 

[MedPR]

Either way, having to do 2 tests is a whole lot easier than having to do USMLE 1, 2 + COMLEX 1, 2.

I think DO students would prefer to take only one, but there's no way the AOA makes OMM optional.

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[pattr]

Apparently DO schools put more emphasis on micro and less on pharmacology or something.

There was barely any pharm on my USMLE.

COMLEX tested more on pharm and micro; USMLE more on basic sciences, physio and biochemistry.

 

[HalfListic]

Having one test would obviously be best.

MD students have a slight edge for the USMLE since their curriculum is structured for it, and they only study for it. DOs have the advantage of a different set of residencies.

I think most of us would agree that a single accreditation should lead to a single board certification...but politics takes time I guess.

 

[MedPR]

Having one test would obviously be best.

MD students have a slight edge for the USMLE since their curriculum is structured for it, and they only study for it. DOs have the advantage of a different set of residencies.

I think most of us would agree that a single accreditation should lead to a single board certification...but politics takes time I guess.

Idk what you mean by MD curriculum is structured for USMLE. You read med students on sdn (from MDs all around the country) all saying that preclinical is a lot of useless minutiae.

Whether or not it's what most DOs do, I hear a lot of DO students saying they sudy for the USMLE then read that one book for OMM once it's over. Essentially they're studying only for the USMLE too.

But yes, one test would be best though you can't test the MDs on OMM and I don't see the AOA letting OMM go by the wayside.
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[HalfListic]

Idk what you mean by MD curriculum is structured for USMLE. You read med students on sdn (from MDs all around the country) all saying that preclinical is a lot of useless minutiae.

Whether or not it's what most DOs do, I hear a lot of DO students saying they sudy for the USMLE then read that one book for OMM once it's over. Essentially they're studying only for the USMLE too.

But yes, one test would be best though you can't test the MDs on OMM and I don't see the AOA letting OMM go by the wayside.
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I missed what you didn't get because you stated exactly the same. The first two years of preclinical details are exactly what shows up on the USMLE. They are basically the same format at any given MD school. The first two years of DO school is similar, but varied across different programs and includes OPP. Hence, MD schools are structured for USMLE, DO for COMLEX.

If it were different, one would have to assume an increase in DO USMLE scores, on average, however small the increase might be. I wont state anything further so as to keep that point simple and highly likely.

As far as one test...I dont think they would let OMM fall away (neither should it, its great and is actually growing in popularity and acceptance) But. There could be one USMLE basic sciences board test that all could take, and then a much smaller, basic competency, OPP/OMM test that could be taken for those that want an AOA/ACGME residency.

 

[DrBumblebee]

Having one test would obviously be best.

MD students have a slight edge for the USMLE since their curriculum is structured for it, and they only study for it. DOs have the advantage of a different set of residencies.

I think most of us would agree that a single accreditation should lead to a single board certification...but politics takes time I guess.

What's beyond making money using COMLEX exams once GME's been unified? Thus, I expect that there'll be just one, standardized set of exams (i.e., a new, unified exam: USMLE + COMLEX = you name it) to compare all of the applicants at once. That unified exam might have an optional OMM part to it to test the applicant if he/sh wants to apply to osteopathic programs, as well. Only this would be helpful for MDs to apply to previously AOA residency programs, and would remove many of the complaints of DOs about converting their COMLEX scores to USMLE scores.

 

[MedPR]

I missed what you didn't get because you stated exactly the same. The first two years of preclinical details are exactly what shows up on the USMLE. They are basically the same format at any given MD school. The first two years of DO school is similar, but varied across different programs and includes OPP. Hence, MD schools are structured for USMLE, DO for COMLEX.

If it were different, one would have to assume an increase in DO USMLE scores, on average, however small the increase might be. I wont state anything further so as to keep that point simple and highly likely.

As far as one test...I dont think they would let OMM fall away (neither should it, its great and is actually growing in popularity and acceptance) But. There could be one USMLE basic sciences board test that all could take, and then a much smaller, basic competency, OPP/OMM test that could be taken for those that want an AOA/ACGME residency.

The material covered on USMLE and COMLEX is largely the same besides OMM. In essence MD curriculum is no more USMLE focused than DO curriculum.

What's beyond making money using COMLEX exams once GME's been unified? Thus, I expect that there'll be just one, standardized set of exams (i.e., a new, unified exam: USMLE + COMLEX = you name it) to compare all of the applicants at once. Only this would be helpful for MDs to apply to previously AOA residency programs, and would remove many of the complaints of DOs about converting their COMLEX scores to USMLE scores.

there is no reason to change the test system for MDs because the only additional stiff in DO tests is OMM and MD schools don't teach OMM.

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[HalfListic]

The material covered on USMLE and COMLEX is largely the same besides OMM. In essence MD curriculum is no more USMLE focused than DO curriculum.

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notice the words you use..."largely" and "besides". Your words are agreeing with me without your permission


I suspect you think that I am saying they are completely different, but I am not. Im saying they have differences, however small. We could argue about how big the difference is, but neither one of us has taken both, so we can only agree that they are different, at least a little.


I think that if DO students did have the different things to worry about, their average scores would come up a bit. Its just a logical prediction. Wont affect me, or any one person, but its pretty solid

 

[MedPR]

notice the words you use..."largely" and "besides". Your words are agreeing with me without your permission


I suspect you think that I am saying they are completely different, but I am not. Im saying they have differences, however small. We could argue about how big the difference is, but neither one of us has taken both, so we can only agree that they are different, at least a little.


I think that if DO students did have the different things to worry about, their average scores would come up a bit. Its just a logical prediction. Wont affect me, or any one person, but its pretty solid

I thought you were saying that MD schools taught their students how to do well on the USMLE.

I'm seeing now that you did not have that intention.

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[HalfListic]

I thought you were saying that MD schools taught their students how to do well on the USMLE.

I'm seeing now that you did not have that intention.

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word

 

[docmayer]

What's beyond making money using COMLEX exams once GME's been unified? Thus, I expect that there'll be just one, standardized set of exams (i.e., a new, unified exam: USMLE + COMLEX = you name it) to compare all of the applicants at once. That unified exam might have an optional OMM part to it to test the applicant if he/sh wants to apply to osteopathic programs, as well. Only this would be helpful for MDs to apply to previously AOA residency programs, and would remove many of the complaints of DOs about converting their COMLEX scores to USMLE scores.

This is perfect.

 

[JGimpel]

You guys know I'm a pretty straight shooter here (don't worry, I'm not talking about actually shooting anyone) and after taking a few of these gems, I can say that the COMLEX is written on subject matter pulled from one of those cruel Japanese game shows where, no matter what, you end up hit in the face with some rubber object, then back-translated from Croatian by someone that speaks English as a second language. No MD or DO school can prepare you for that.

The DO schools, furthermore, have taken an anti-USMLE stance either in public or in secret, so that the training is geared towards some of the COMLEX but as little of the USMLE as possible. Look at a bare-bones but adequate study guide like First Aid and your actual notes from class and you'll see what I mean. Yes, that may take a few minutes and it's probably not worth doing. The most glaring exception, as has often been noticed by people other than myself, is Biochem, but other places are cut too.

But NOOOOOO!

Compare a COMLEX percentile to a USMLE percentile for a student or two and you'll also wonder how a person could get an 82 on the former when getting a 95+ on the latter...and the person went to DO school!

OMM will never go away, cranial will.

2015: All DO residencies mysteriously get a PROVISIONAL ACGME accreditation. (They'll never admit the provisional point, but let's continue.)
2018: The programs that are deficient in some way (not that the ACGME would put every program under a microscope now that it holds some leverage) get added up and submitted for DE-accreditation unless the AOA sacrifices a certain number of goats, agrees to show up in tights to every conference for a year or...agrees to drop the COMLEX.
2020: The COMLEX is fully phased out, the NBOME is disbanded and the AOA holds a meeting in some fancy resort every year and puts together a bunch of documents that everyone will ignore and, overall, a sense of akward normalcy will prevail.

Studying First Aid, Pathoma and doing UWorld on a daily basis will yield great dividends for someone taking the USMLE, but not as much for someone taking the COMLEX, and the OMM questions on the COMLEX are either super-basic or ridiculous, not really somewhere fair and in between.

[/prognostication]

 

[darklabel]

You guys know I'm a pretty straight shooter here (don't worry, I'm not talking about actually shooting anyone) and after taking a few of these gems, I can say that the COMLEX is written on subject matter pulled from one of those cruel Japanese game shows where, no matter what, you end up hit in the face with some rubber object, then back-translated from Croatian by someone that speaks English as a second language. No MD or DO school can prepare you for that.

The DO schools, furthermore, have taken an anti-USMLE stance either in public or in secret, so that the training is geared towards some of the COMLEX but as little of the USMLE as possible. Look at a bare-bones but adequate study guide like First Aid and your actual notes from class and you'll see what I mean. Yes, that may take a few minutes and it's probably not worth doing. The most glaring exception, as has often been noticed by people other than myself, is Biochem, but other places are cut too.

But NOOOOOO!

Compare a COMLEX percentile to a USMLE percentile for a student or two and you'll also wonder how a person could get an 82 on the former when getting a 95+ on the latter...and the person went to DO school!

OMM will never go away, cranial will.

2015: All DO residencies mysteriously get a PROVISIONAL ACGME accreditation. (They'll never admit the provisional point, but let's continue.)
2018: The programs that are deficient in some way (not that the ACGME would put every program under a microscope now that it holds some leverage) get added up and submitted for DE-accreditation unless the AOA sacrifices a certain number of goats, agrees to show up in tights to every conference for a year or...agrees to drop the COMLEX.
2020: The COMLEX is fully phased out, the NBOME is disbanded and the AOA holds a meeting in some fancy resort every year and puts together a bunch of documents that everyone will ignore and, overall, a sense of akward normalcy will prevail.

Studying First Aid, Pathoma and doing UWorld on a daily basis will yield great dividends for someone taking the USMLE, but not as much for someone taking the COMLEX, and the OMM questions on the COMLEX are either super-basic or ridiculous, not really somewhere fair and in between.

[/prognostication]

So for current and future DOs, how would you recommend studying for the COMLEX and USMLE?

 

[MedPR]

You guys know I'm a pretty straight shooter here (don't worry, I'm not talking about actually shooting anyone) and after taking a few of these gems, I can say that the COMLEX is written on subject matter pulled from one of those cruel Japanese game shows where, no matter what, you end up hit in the face with some rubber object, then back-translated from Croatian by someone that speaks English as a second language. No MD or DO school can prepare you for that.

The DO schools, furthermore, have taken an anti-USMLE stance either in public or in secret, so that the training is geared towards some of the COMLEX but as little of the USMLE as possible. Look at a bare-bones but adequate study guide like First Aid and your actual notes from class and you'll see what I mean. Yes, that may take a few minutes and it's probably not worth doing. The most glaring exception, as has often been noticed by people other than myself, is Biochem, but other places are cut too.

But NOOOOOO!

Compare a COMLEX percentile to a USMLE percentile for a student or two and you'll also wonder how a person could get an 82 on the former when getting a 95+ on the latter...and the person went to DO school!

OMM will never go away, cranial will.

2015: All DO residencies mysteriously get a PROVISIONAL ACGME accreditation. (They'll never admit the provisional point, but let's continue.)
2018: The programs that are deficient in some way (not that the ACGME would put every program under a microscope now that it holds some leverage) get added up and submitted for DE-accreditation unless the AOA sacrifices a certain number of goats, agrees to show up in tights to every conference for a year or...agrees to drop the COMLEX.
2020: The COMLEX is fully phased out, the NBOME is disbanded and the AOA holds a meeting in some fancy resort every year and puts together a bunch of documents that everyone will ignore and, overall, a sense of akward normalcy will prevail.

Studying First Aid, Pathoma and doing UWorld on a daily basis will yield great dividends for someone taking the USMLE, but not as much for someone taking the COMLEX, and the OMM questions on the COMLEX are either super-basic or ridiculous, not really somewhere fair and in between.

[/prognostication]

I'm confused and not trying to be argumentative. Med students (sometimes residents and attendings) commonly say that med school is a lot of self study. If that's true, then the fact that DO schools are anti-USMLE shouldn't matter because a student can choose to study more board oriented stuff and simply pass their preclinical years instead of gunning for As.

So what does it matter if the school's curriculum isn't geared towards USMLE?

 

[JGimpel]

Sorry guys, don't have much more of an answer for the self-study stuff for COMLEX. People will often buy a COMLEX q-bank in the hopes of it helping them out, but it doesn't work for everybody. People that score well swear that they saw some actual real test questions in those test banks, but I don't buy it.

MedPR, you're logic is spot on; don't shoot for A's at the expense of doing well on your USMLE/COMLEX exams. Do whatever you need to do to pass your classes by a good margin and spend the rest of your time on the resources previously listed, probably adding in a few DO-specific books along the way for the COMLEX and hope for the best. Have a current student recommend something better than Savarese if you want to do better than average on this exam.

The 2 main reasons I wouldn't go DO are the AOA, who doesn't give a crap about DOs and the NBOME that doesn't give a crap about DOs and can pull your license if you say anything about anything they deem unprofessional...ever. Can you imagine me pulling your transcripts/license for almost any reason? If you're not comfortable about the last 15% of your score being entirely random, don't go DO. I'm 100% happy with my decision, otherwise.

 

[DrBumblebee]

Sorry guys, don't have much more of an answer for the self-study stuff for COMLEX. People will often buy a COMLEX q-bank in the hopes of it helping them out, but it doesn't work for everybody. People that score well swear that they saw some actual real test questions in those test banks, but I don't buy it.

MedPR, you're logic is spot on; don't shoot for A's at the expense of doing well on your USMLE/COMLEX exams. Do whatever you need to do to pass your classes by a good margin and spend the rest of your time on the resources previously listed, probably adding in a few DO-specific books along the way for the COMLEX and hope for the best. Have a current student recommend something better than Savarese if you want to do better than average on this exam.

The 2 main reasons I wouldn't go DO are the AOA, who doesn't give a crap about DOs and the NBOME that doesn't give a crap about DOs and can pull your license if you say anything about anything they deem unprofessional...ever. Can you imagine me pulling your transcripts/license for almost any reason? If you're not comfortable about the last 15% of your score being entirely random, don't go DO. I'm 100% happy with my decision, otherwise.

What the?! Is this true? They pull your transcripts and licence?

But, in what circumstances they pull them? Any examples that you'd like to share with us here?

Also, even after your ACGME residency, will you still be a licensed physician by AOA due to that you're a DO medical school graduate?

 

[JGimpel]

http://www.nbome.org/docs/comlexBOI.pdf

Page 32 of the document, found at page 36 of the pdf:

I. Other Unprofessional Conduct
The NBOME deems professionalism to be an important competency of an osteopathic physician, and a candidate must demonstrate professionalism at all times. The NBOME will not tolerate unprofessional conduct on the part of any candidate under any circumstance, including but not limited to the following:
• Use of foul, lewd, improper or culturally insensitive statements in the comment dialog box provided on the CBT examinations, or in the SOAP notes portion of the clinical skills examination.
• Use of foul, lewd, improper or culturally insensitive language in or near a test site.
• Use of foul, lewd, improper or culturally insensitive language, actions, or behavior when addressing the NBOME, an agent or employee of the NBOME or the testing vendor in person, by telephone, by email, or by written contact.
• Any conduct or behavior deemed by the NBOME to be inappropriate or unprofessional for an osteopathic physician.
• Violation by the candidate of any of the Terms and Conditions as set out in the NBOME Bulletin of Information as published when the violation occurred or the most recently published Bulletin of Information, whether occurring before or after the administration of a COMLEX-USA examination to the candidate.
When any unprofessional conduct comes to the attention of the NBOME, the NBOME at its sole discretion may take any action it deems appropriate, including, but not limited to, the following:
• Record the name of the candidate, nature of the behavior or conduct and the time and conditions under which the behavior or conduct occurred.
• Notate the candidate's record to reflect the unprofessional conduct.
• As part of the quality assurance program, the NBOME may record and store conversations or other documentation that are considered to be unprofessional.
• Record the punitive action, if any, taken against a candidate including, but not limited to a period of suspension or denial of testing by the NBOME.
• Void and/or not score any examination taken by the candidate, deem the candidate to have failed the examination, report "Fail" as the result of the examination, and annotate the candidate's Score Report and/or transcript for the examination as Irregular Conduct.
• Seek an opportunity to create a "teaching" and "learning" experience from such encounters of unprofessional conduct, behavior or use of language so as to benefit the candidate including, but not limited to, notification of the dean of the college of osteopathic medicine and/or the director for medical education of the graduate medical education program in which the candidate is matriculated or enrolled.
As with other Irregular Conduct, information relating to a candidate's unprofessional conduct may become part of the permanent record of the candidate maintained by the NBOME. The NBOME may in its sole discretion without notification to or permission of the candidate release any or all of the candidate's information or action(s) taken by the NBOME relating to the candidate's Irregular Conduct to any authority, agent of an authority or other persons deemed appropriate by the NBOME or as required by law.

All of your comments made on your computerized tests or the surveys after them of your PE are not anonymous and anything said is recorded with your name on it.
If someone overhears you saying something offensive to another DO at a restaurant down the street and wants to report you, it's fair game.
This could go on your permanent record that could follow you anywhere.
Anyone that is currently your boss gets notified, which probably means you loose your job. But that's OK, you should be able to get another one since you can still apply for another license...

page 34 of the document, page 38 of the pdf:
If the NBOME determines that a candidate has committed fraud, deceit, dishonesty, or any other Irregular Conduct, the NBOME may in its sole discretion refuse to issue any certified transcript, or suspend or revoke any certified transcript previously issued.

If you look at the 2 passages together, if you do something they don't like, even if it doesn't have to do with your exams, they can hold have you all but fired from your current employer, kicked out of your school, and hold your transcripts, which makes it kinda hard to get a license anywhere.

The rest of the BOI is a fascinating read. Enjoy.

Your license will be from an individual state governing body. Many states have an Osteopathic Licensing Division in that state and many do not. If they don't, your license is granted by the MD licensing division. This will be unaffected by the ACGME taking over Osteopathic accreditation, yet...

You can get more information about this here:
http://www.fsmb.org/directory_smb.html

 

[WorldChanger36]

I find it interesting that the COMLEX wasn't just dissolved from the get go. Is it possible that the residency directors themselves will choose what tests they accept as a way of separating people out? Like programs that have a bit of a DO bias will only take COMLEX scores and if MDs want in they would have to take that test as well.

I could see DO and MD schools freeing up students to make the choice for either or both.

Just a thought...

 

[MedPR]

I find it interesting that the COMLEX wasn't just dissolved from the get go. Is it possible that the residency directors themselves will choose what tests they accept as a way of separating people out? Like programs that have a bit of a DO bias will only take COMLEX scores and if MDs want in they would have to take that test as well.

I could see DO and MD schools freeing up students to make the choice for either or both.

Just a thought...

Unless COMLEX stops testing OMM there's no way anyone can require MD students to take it. That wouldn't make any sense...

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[WorldChanger36]

Unless COMLEX stops testing OMM there's no way anyone can require MD students to take it. That wouldn't make any sense...

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

I don't know couldn't MDs pick it up if they wanted to. Like lets say you are an MD student a FIU and you took OMM at NOVA as an elective 1st and or 2nd year, could you take the COMLEX then? I mean how much OMM training do you need before you can take the COMLEX?

 

[NeuroLAX]

Oh, the changes I would suggest that would bring both sides together permanently. Alas, it will likely forever remain my utopia.

I hope the strong words of the NBOME are only enforced in extreme cases of unprofessional behavior. In cases such as these I perfectly understand the need to take action. Indeed it would be sad if one is unable to speak out with bright and transformative ideas, or if policies are enacted that serve to dissuade someone from disseminating their ideas. I don't think this is what they mean by their policies highlighted above.

 

[MedPR]

I don't know couldn't MDs pick it up if they wanted to. Like lets say you are an MD student a FIU and you took OMM at NOVA as an elective 1st and or 2nd year, could you take the COMLEX then? I mean how much OMM training do you need before you can take the COMLEX?

What happens to the MD students who don't have a DO school down the street?

 

[DrBumblebee]

Oh, the changes I would suggest that would bring both sides together permanently. Alas, it will likely forever remain my utopia.

I hope the strong words of the NBOME are only enforced in extreme cases of unprofessional behavior. In cases such as these I perfectly understand the need to take action. Indeed it would be sad if one is unable to speak out with bright and transformative ideas, or if policies are enacted that serve to dissuade someone from disseminating their ideas. I don't think this is what they mean by their policies highlighted above.

I'd honestly like to understand it in the way that you've explained above. It shouldn't be that easy to revoke a licence as JGimpel has implied in his post. I'd certainly admit that, in some extreme cases of unprofessional behavior, the organization should revoke a licence legally for the public's good. Besides, this shouldn't only apply to DO physicians, but all physicians practicing in the US.

 

[MedPR]

I'd honestly like to understand it in the way that you've explained above. It shouldn't be that easy to revoke a licence as JGimpel has implied in his post. I'd certainly admit that, in some extreme cases of unprofessional behavior, the organization should revoke a licence legally for the public's good. Besides, this shouldn't only apply to DO physicians, but all physicians practicing in the US.

Your post history indicates that you have a very difficult time understanding that there are differences between reality and what you think reality is and/or should be.

 

[as1212559]

lolwut this thread is still here?

Mods, please lock until 2016. Speculation ftw.

 

[JGimpel]

If you think that those policies were intended just for those that cheat on exams that are already video and audio recorded and could not be used against a student/resident in a malicious manner, you're giving the NBOME far too much credit. Anything that the NBOME feels is Irregular Conduct before and after an exam or just about anywhere can be used to begin the sanctions mentioned. I'm pretty sure making fun of the CEO of the NBOME on a daily basis would also count, but nobody is crazy enough to do that.

If sending a letter to a place where you're licensed to work that your transcript has been revoked doesn't cause you concern that your contract may also be revoked, you're giving your employer and the state licensing board too much credit.

What happens on paper and in the real world, especially in medicine, can be very different. The sooner people in medicine realize this, the better.

I hate to disillusion those so early in their training, but to make a point, check out the General Residency Issues forum at the link below and notice how many threads several pages long are devoted to how residents have been terminated for, let's just say 'less than obvious' reasons:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=49

 

[Dmr6186]

Well, looks like the class of 2017 DOs will still have to deal with two matches From the Osteo forum from HockeyDr:

Just got word from our dean the merger is pushed to 2018. Apparently there was some meeting in DC for DO deans (I'm sure others were there as well). Oh well....

That's all we were told.

 

[NurWollen]

Well, looks like the class of 2017 DOs will still have to deal with two matches From the Osteo forum from HockeyDr:

That's it. I'm deferring and/or reapplying. I can't handle two matches. J/k. That is a pretty big bummer though. A combined match was/is the most attractive part of the merger, for me.

 

[Ravizzle]

That's it. I'm deferring and/or reapplying. I can't handle two matches. J/k. That is a pretty big bummer though. A combined match was/is the most attractive part of the merger, for me.

Same. Was really exited about one match. But not a big enough deal to want to defer as well, initially I was ready to apply DO before they even announced this merger stuff.

Sent from my Galaxy S2