LORs from residents....

[tRmedic21]

Are LORs from residents acceptable? I will probably get some from attendings, too, but I know a couple of residents who are articulate, excellent physicians and I worked closely with them during my 4th year. I'd like to ask them for LORs if they will do me any good at all. Or do only letters from attending physicians really mean anything? I mean they really know me much better than anyone else I worked with, they know how much time I put in, how hard I worked, etc, while the attending probably knows less, and the PD never heard my name. At least they'd be from Chief Residents.

Obviously, I know letters from PDs > attendings > residents. I just want to know if they're worth anything at all. Also, the same question applies about Basic Science professors.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Blade28]

Are they all chief residents? Soon-to-be chiefs?

I wouldn't want to see LORs from residents. When you consider most applicants will have letters from attendings...

 

[Blade28]

And what field are you applying to? I know for most surgical fields, you'll get laughed at if your letters are from non-surgeons. No medicine/psych attendings, no residents, no PhDs.

 

[geekgirl]

i wouldn't use resident letters. no way in hell.

if you get along well with the residents, have them put in a good word with an attending you also know to improve the attending's letter.

but stand alone resident letters are useless (or at least, as blade mentioned, useless in surgery).

 

[tRmedic21]

Well, yeah the one I was mainly thinking of is a soon-to-be chief, and will also be doing Cardiology afterwards. I'm also looking mainly at Surgery. I'll have at least one letter, I'm sure, from a surgery attending. I am trying to set up a CT Surg elective for July, so I should be able to get that in in time. My other Surgery electives will be later in the year, after ERAS apps are submitted.

Hmmm ok... back to the drawing board.

 

[prominence]

Well, yeah the one I was mainly thinking of is a soon-to-be chief, and will also be doing Cardiology afterwards. I'm also looking mainly at Surgery. I'll have at least one letter, I'm sure, from a surgery attending. I am trying to set up a CT Surg elective for July, so I should be able to get that in in time. My other Surgery electives will be later in the year, after ERAS apps are submitted.

Hmmm ok... back to the drawing board.

where are you at? coney island hospital?

 

[Gfunk6]

Well, yeah the one I was mainly thinking of is a soon-to-be chief, and will also be doing Cardiology afterwards.

Even so, I tend to agree with the other posters. I would shy awa from getting LORs from senior residents\fellows. I know some people won't get LORs from junior faculty either unless they know them very well and for an extended period of time.

 

[tRmedic21]

where are you at? coney island hospital?

Was that some kind of joke? Not sure what it was supposed to mean, sorry.

 

[tRmedic21]

Even so, I tend to agree with the other posters. I would shy awa from getting LORs from senior residents\fellows. I know some people won't get LORs from junior faculty either unless they know them very well and for an extended period of time.

Ok, so here's the thing... if this is how it really is (and not just the elitism that sometimes obscures reality in the SDN world), are all the letters everyone gets actually from attendings and PDs and such? I mean everyone wants to get the best letters they can, but come on... how much does an attending who sees you present 2-4 patients a day and then doesn't see you again till the next day really know about you as a person, you as a student, and what kind of doctor you'll be? And PDs... well that would be even worse. How many people out there really get to spend much time with the PD? Did you scrub in on a couple of cases? How can such a limited experience be the best basis we have for recommending someone for a high-profile (and responsibility) career?

I just don't really get it. I mean, I don't see any of the other students around me getting more or better interaction with their attendings, and everyone's pretty much spending 4 weeks with one and then moving on. Not really much chance to build a solid foundation.

If this is the case, then most of the residency spots (ok, interviews, anyways) are awarded based on arbitrary testing results and LORs that are of suspect authenticity at best (IMO).

It just seems a bit odd, I think. Perhaps I'm overanalyzing it, or putting too much import on LORs, etc. I dunno.

 

[neutropenic]

Um, I was told at one of our scholars in [this-and-that] meetings that you cannot have residents, your best friend, your 4th grade history teacher, your CCD teacher or your momma write you a LOR. They need to be attending level.

I somewhat disagree about having 1-2 non field specific letters in your file if they complement and augment your application. I mean if you got honors in medicine and had your medicine chair, who you know really well and is famous in medicine circles, write you a superlative letter, I doubt very much this will hurt you for surgery (may even be more helpful than a letter from Christina Jones, an unknown community surgeon in Podunksville, MI community hospital who still does open appys with the blunt edge of a tuna can).

I got most of my letters (4 out of 5) from 4th year rotations at small places where I specifically asked to have 1-on-1 interaction with a single attending. It's hard when you're on a big team, the medical student just gets lost in the shuffle. In my opinion most of MS3 wasn't conducive to letter gathering though others may have had varying mileage unless it was a preceptor based rotation and not a attending-resident team based rotation.

If this is the case, then most of the residency spots (ok, interviews, anyways) are awarded based on arbitrary testing results and LORs that are of suspect authenticity at best (IMO).

It just seems a bit odd, I think. Perhaps I'm overanalyzing it, or putting too much import on LORs, etc. I dunno.

That's absolutely correct, actually.

A lot of people don't think LORs matter, but I think they are actually of great import. Many people look very similar on paper. All my classmates transcripts are mostly identical, e.g., and most students have step 1 scores somewhere between 200 and 240 which is probably a range of ~13% of questions on the exam.

Most of my letter writers knew me anywhere from 2-4 weeks.
Most all of my invites were after only letters and step 1 scores were in. A few places waited for the dean's letter.
Letters and step 1 scores get you interviews. Late letters means NO interviews for many.

 

[automaton]

according to my advisor, LOR from junior faculty aren't going to help you much, even if they are rising stars. needless to say, letters from residents mean even less. you really need letters from program directors, section chiefs, and full professors. it will help if your resident can give the attendings some ideas but you really need to have the big guns in your favor for a field like surgery.

have a game plan for your LOR. things don't happen if you're passive. make a meeting with the section head even if you don't work with them often, and say, "i'm applying to surgery, i need all the help i can get, it would mean a lot if i could have your strong support, blah blah blah" then they will watch you closer and spend some time, ask others about you, etc. be proactive and shoot for the stars man. surgery is not a field for passive people.

 

[Blade28]

OK, if you're going to apply to surgery, then DEFINITELY do not get a letter from a resident - and certainly not an internal medicine resident! You need them to all be from surgery attendings.

I got to know my attendings well - I'd scrub into 2-6 cases with them PER WEEK. One was from my research advisor (also a surgery attending), one from my surgery mentor (also an attending), one from the Chairman/PD, then one from an away elective.

 

[inositide]

No matter what residency you are applying for, do not get a letter of rec from a resident, chief resident, or follow. All of your letters should be from atttendings.

Senior attendings are better than junior attendings, but sometimes the junior attending might know you better. In that case, a more personal letter from a junior attending is better than a two liner from a senior attending. You can mix and match.

Attendings at academic hospitals will always be willing to write a letter of rec for residency apps. You might have to bug them (politely) to get it done on time, but they generally come through for you. They have a vested interest in seeing their student match to great residencies and beyond.

Nothing looks worse than a letter of rec from a resident or fellow. It makes it seem as though none of your attendings would be willing to do.

The closest I would go to getting a letter from a residenct or fellow is if the attending wants a ghost writer for the letter and the attending will sign the letter. Sometimes medicine dept chair letters are written by ghost writers and signed by the chairperson after appropriate review. No problem with that.

 

[bigfrank]

Are LORs from residents acceptable? I will probably get some from attendings, too, but I know a couple of residents who are articulate, excellent physicians and I worked closely with them during my 4th year. I'd like to ask them for LORs if they will do me any good at all. Or do only letters from attending physicians really mean anything? I mean they really know me much better than anyone else I worked with, they know how much time I put in, how hard I worked, etc, while the attending probably knows less, and the PD never heard my name. At least they'd be from Chief Residents.

Obviously, I know letters from PDs > attendings > residents. I just want to know if they're worth anything at all. Also, the same question applies about Basic Science professors.

If you're having to ask this question, shouldn't that tell you something?

 

[tRmedic21]

If you're having to ask this question, shouldn't that tell you something?

I don't know, should it? come on give me a break. I've gotten excellent feedback from nearly every rotation, have passed them all without difficulty, I'm a good student, a hard worker, I do what is asked and volunteer to do extra. Does that sound like a bad student to you? Sheesh.... some people....

I was merely wondering if since the residents know you better (obviously, since we work together MUCH MUCH more) their letters would mean anything. At my facility, not many people are nationally known anyways. Residents are still doctors, and I'm sure many of us know residents who are better than many attendings. If your attending physician isn't highly known and/or published, who cares what their letters say? Never mind, it doesn't really matter. If you want to think I'm a below-average student who can't get LORs from attendings, then that's certainly your right to do. We all have the right to hold incorrect opinions.

 

[CNphair]

When I did an away rotation at Duke, I remarked to some fellow students that I was not sure who to ask for a LOR. One of the second year students then volunteered to write me a letter...he explained that since he was from Duke, the letter might carry "some" weight. It was really the highlight of my rotation.

I agree with the above sentiments - no sub-attending letters allowed. Sadly, the higher up the attending, the more weight the letter carries. This is especially true of the more competitive specialties.

 

[neutropenic]

This is especially true of the more competitive specialties.

I think it's also true of the smaller specialties where everyone in academia "knows" each other unlike a big umbrella specialty like family medicine.

 

[CNphair]

I think it's also true of the smaller specialties where everyone in academia "knows" each other unlike a big umbrella specialty like family medicine.

Definitely true...I know in Rad Onc it is hard to even get interviews without at least one "big name" letter. Of course, outside the rad onc world, no one has ever heard of these "big names."

 

[Blade28]

Just ask your attendings. Don't ask the residents.

 

[mysophobe]

The residents aren't going to have their feelings hurt if you don't ask them for a LOR. They know the deal, they went through it too. I was wondering this not too long ago, but I was told the same thing everybody here is telling you now: attending LORs only!

 

[CANES2006]

NO resident LORs for ANY specialty.

 

[fomites]

Are LORs from residents acceptable?

No. You should ask the nurses. Or better yet, the teenage volunteers.