Long-Term NRT

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aim-agm

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Are there issues with maintaining patients on NRT long term? Obviously there are very many reasons to get patients off tobacco, and probably good reasons to get off vaping, but what about patients on nicotine patch/gum? Are there significant psychiatric or medical problems from long-term use of nicotine itself? It's been hard to find good information because much of the literature conflates tobacco and nicotine.

Also, has anyone seen a case or have literature regarding prolonged/complex withdrawal syndrome/symptoms with nicotine? The patient bringing up the above questions was using a tin of chewing tobacco daily for decades (~88mg/day, equivalent to ~4 PPD) and is engaging in treatment but even with 21mg patch + 4 mg gum q1h PRN they are still having withdrawals and its been months since we started NRT. The patient reports remote history ~3 months of total abstinence and afterwards still having physiologic withdrawal symptoms.

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A patient won't have withdrawal symptoms after 3 months of total abstinence from nicotine. It would be psychosomatic. Most likely NRT in your particular patient is low compared to prior nicotine intake. Even then, actual biological withdrawal wouldn't last 3 months. Your patient probably self medicates anxiety with nicotine. Also, nicotine is the most addictive substance, so lifelong cravings aren't uncommon.

Nicotine will inflame small arteries and contribute to arterial plaques, but is magnitudes safer than using tobacco with all it's carcinogens and inflammatory chemicals. I have some good literature about this shared with me from a cardiologist but I'm away from my desk at the moment. Personally, if the goal is harm reduction indefinite NRT is preferable to using tobacco. Probably safer than benzos for anxiety, but I'm not telling patients that.
 
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Nicotine itself is a carcinogen, on its own still causes paralysis of lung cilia, so it can still be a factor in developing lung issues and lung cancer.

That said, agree that smoking or other tobacco use is loads WORSE.

Harm reduction model would support indefinite NRT over any form of tobacco use.

Agree that most of it is psychosomatic.

It's been about 7 years since my last cigarette. I feel tenuous that strong cravings have finally gone away, and it finally smells "bad" the way it does to non-smokers compared to how it smelled "good" to me before as a smoker and after quitting.

Basically, the fact that it continues to have an effect on the brain long, long after any actual physiological withdrawal ends, is not a sign of actual withdrawal.

Interesting study I looked at, and I don't quite remember how long after quitting they made the comparison, but they looked at never-smoker brains, smoker brains, and quit-smoking brains, many years after. Conclusions were it did not take long for a never smoker brain to look like a smoker brain, whether they smoked a year or 10. And that essentially no matter how long one was quit, the quitter smoker brain never seems to go back to "normal." It doesn't go back to "never smoker." It appears some changes are near-permanent or permanent, and the quit-smoker brain just adapts to the changes in absence of the drug. The quitter smoker brain never goes back to normal, it just learns to cope. It never looks like either brain again.

I would say this lines up with many anecdotal experiences, in not only how long effects are seen (cravings, altered perception of smell of smoke) as well as how quickly after long periods of abstinence one becomes a smoker and adapted to that again.

The way I think of it, my relationship to cigarettes will never be the same again.

Anyway, the point is that this can drag on, and some of it may even be lifelong. But the brain CAN adapt to being a former tobacoo user.
 
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A patient won't have withdrawal symptoms after 3 months of total abstinence from nicotine. It would be psychosomatic. Most likely NRT in your particular patient is low compared to prior nicotine intake. Even then, actual biological withdrawal wouldn't last 3 months. Your patient probably self medicates anxiety with nicotine. Also, nicotine is the most addictive substance, so lifelong cravings aren't uncommon.

Thanks, I wasn't sure if strange things happen at high doses.
Yes, the total daily nicotine is still falling short of their prior intake by ~20 mg/day (can't increase NRT more without raising eyebrows), but it's surprising that it's only ~25% reduction in dose with persistent withdrawals after months. Notably at first the patient didn't recognize the withdrawal symptoms as such and thought they were a medication side effect.

Nicotine will inflame small arteries and contribute to arterial plaques, but is magnitudes safer than using tobacco with all it's carcinogens and inflammatory chemicals. I have some good literature about this shared with me from a cardiologist but I'm away from my desk at the moment. Personally, if the goal is harm reduction indefinite NRT is preferable to using tobacco.

Interesting! I'd really appreciate that literature.

Probably safer than benzos for anxiety, but I'm not telling patients that.
I've wondered at that, particularly in the elderly.
 
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Nicotine itself is a carcinogen, on its own still causes paralysis of lung cilia, so it can still be a factor in developing lung issues and lung cancer.

That said, agree that smoking or other tobacco use is loads WORSE.

Harm reduction model would support indefinite NRT over any form of tobacco use.

Agree that most of it is psychosomatic.

It's been about 7 years since my last cigarette. I feel tenuous that strong cravings have finally gone away, and it finally smells "bad" the way it does to non-smokers compared to how it smelled "good" to me before as a smoker and after quitting.

Basically, the fact that it continues to have an effect on the brain long, long after any actual physiological withdrawal ends, is not a sign of actual withdrawal.

Interesting study I looked at, and I don't quite remember how long after quitting they made the comparison, but they looked at never-smoker brains, smoker brains, and quit-smoking brains, many years after. Conclusions were it did not take long for a never smoker brain to look like a smoker brain, whether they smoked a year or 10. And that essentially no matter how long one was quit, the quitter smoker brain never seems to go back to "normal." It doesn't go back to "never smoker." It appears some changes are near-permanent or permanent, and the quit-smoker brain just adapts to the changes in absence of the drug. The quitter smoker brain never goes back to normal, it just learns to cope. It never looks like either brain again.

I would say this lines up with many anecdotal experiences, in not only how long effects are seen (cravings, altered perception of smell of smoke) as well as how quickly after long periods of abstinence one becomes a smoker and adapted to that again.

The way I think of it, my relationship to cigarettes will never be the same again.

Anyway, the point is that this can drag on, and some of it may even be lifelong. But the brain CAN adapt to being a former tobacoo user.

Thank you for sharing of your experience and expertise.

Have you tried Chantix (or to a lesser extent Wellbutrin)?

Was going to try former, but pharmacy didn't have any stock (on back order), I'm guessing related to the recall. Started bupropion last visit which will hopefully help.
 
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It's like, on one hand you need the patient to understand this is often a long uncomfortable road, but without them giving up.

The psychological truly is the longest lasting, and for that reason for many, hardest part. Once the physical withdrawal wears off, yes, the patient will find themselves going hours without thinking about using, which before would have been unthinkable. But because of the psychological aspects that usually isn't the end of it quite that quickly for many.

I was a "habit" or ritual smoker, so for me dozens of little normal things you do every day I had associated with tobacco, from driving to after a meal to going to bed at night. I had to remind myself that my brain had once been capable of doing all these things without tobacco in the past, and could certainly "re-learn" to do all those things again without in the future. But it takes time.

In the case of self-medicating for anxiety or other issues, this may be more difficult because time alone may not lead to a waning and an adaptation to "normal" life, where eventually all the discomfort associated with quitting goes away on its own with time.

This happens frequently with drinking as well.

You may have to formulate this as giving up one problem (the substance and all it does) for another. I think it's key to let people know a few things in this case. The substance was covering up the issue, while making the underlying issue itself worse (withdrawal anxiety), as well as giving you all the other problems from the substance. Now you are experiencing more discomfort as you re-learn to live without, note the underlying issue, and have to learn to cope not only without that substance in "normal life" (like eating without using the substance) but also cope with discomforts like anxiety. If there's an organic piece to that, you may need some other medication, and certainly there are psychological elements that may response to cognitive therapy and the like.

It's important to note, that the increased discomfort and anxiety often lessens greatly with time and nothing else, and you have to sort of wait and see how much you're left with and is persistent. For the persistent piece, you have a choice to go back to smoking, or treat the persistent piece.

Treating the persistent piece of anxiety continuing is outside my wheelhouse.

Also, the continued NRT can also be contributing to this, actually. For whatever reason the patient had self titrated to eighty some odd milligrams a day, and that may not just be coincidental. It may take that much for them not to be uncomfortable on this drug.

Also, if someone is having issues with cravings and rebound anxiety, this may never be fully resolved as long as they take any amount of the drug that isn't "enough." Sometimes the only way to break the cycle is to get off NRT entirely, because being on NRT doesn't change the pharmacodynamics of the very short half life and tolerance and micro-withdrawal and all the rest.

If you want the brain to really adapt to life without nicotine, then at some point you have to be without nicotine. The big issue here is it obviously carries with it the huge danger of total relapse back to full blown tobacco use.

If someone can maintain on NRT, then sure, do that. If they can't, and are at significant risk of relapse, or, if you think that you could get them back to NRT without them going back to tobacco if total nicotine abstinence doesn't work, then you might want to try total abstinence at some point, if the NRT really really isn't cutting it.

This is similar to how many people find they do better with absolutely zero alcohol than with mild or moderate use.

It's not just about a totalitarian response for psychological reasons. Some people's brains are better able to learn to adapt on a molecular basis, to being without a substance, if they are totally without the substance. The problem is that it can take up to years sometimes to see how much recovery will take place, as it does for other neurologically based issues. While most recovery is made within a short time of an event like quitting smoking or stroke, it doesn't end there.

Someone with underlying anxiety issues may never be comfortable with only little tastes of the drug they self medicate with, is the point. Something else may need to be done at some point, and total abstinence may be a piece of that.

It's a problem that isn't solved just with replacement therapy, or abstinence, or even time. It can take lots of time and it can take other treatments to deal with underlying mood issues and psychological coping issues. Much like recovery from say stroke or something, frequently it takes a lot of things to adjust (therapy, changing the environment, tolerating discomforts, etc). There may be a role for pharmacology and there certainly probably is one for other therapies.
 
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What are people's thoughts on N-acetylcysteine in this setting? I've seen some literature that it reduces nicotine cravings and reports of anxiolytic effect, and its antiinflammatory properties theoretically should reduce the vascular adverse effects of nicotine.
 
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