little confused-attaining d.o. easier than m.d???

[Tim Haas]

Hey all, how's it going? I just purchased a medical schools book, and it appears to me that the D.O. requirements are less to get into Osteopathic Schools, while the M.D. requirements are much higher. For example, most accepted Osteopaths have an undergrad gpa of like 3.4 or 3.3, and mcat totals of anywhere from 22-28 mostly. Is that really correct? ALso, once one does 4 yrs of undergrad, then the 4 in med. school(exactly what courses taken in med school?), what happens after that?

Also, im a high school senior and really sort of changed my career path at the last moment, sort of. I'm going to Rochester Institute of Technology for mechanical engineering, but i really wanna try for an MD or DO. Thanks for all the help, very much appreciated.

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[group_theory]

In general, yes it is true. The average stats for all of DO schools is lower than the average stats for all MD schools, but not by much. Remember there is a wide variability between MD schools, from Harvard/Yale/Hopkins down to Finch/Drexel/SLU.

After 4 years of medical school - you'll start your graduate medical training - often referred to as residency. PGY-1 (postgrad year 1) is often called the internship year of a residency. There are some DOs who do the traditional osteopathic internship before starting a residency in a field.

Good luck at Rochester Institute of Tech. If you want to be a doctor - at the minimum, take 1 year of bio w/ lab, 1 year of general chem w/ lab, 1 year of physics w/ lab, 1 year of orgo w/ lab, 1 year of math, and 1 year of english. That should satisfy most med school requirements. It wouldn't hurt if you take genetics and biochemistry. If you want to show med school how tough you are, take pchem. If you want to show med school how insane you are, tell them "I enjoy pchem and had fun"

Also important is clinical experience. Volunteer (or get a job) in a medical setting - get early exposure. That way, you can determine for yourself if you really want to go into medicine or not. Many premeds decide not to pursue medicine once they figure out that medicine isn't right for them. And if you have time, do some basic science research too. Not only will it help on your application process - but it will give you a different prospective on life, and on how research is actually done (none of that crazy lone high school science teacher sitting in a lab full of liquid nitrogen bubbling, and going "I've discovered the cure for cancer")

And if that isn't enough - there is a philosophical difference between MD (sometimes referred to as allopathy) and DO (osteopathy). I suggest you look into the differences to see which one you would enjoy.

After all that, my last advice is the following:
HAVE FUN.

College is a time for study. A time for making friendship. A time for independence, and a time for self discovery. It is also the time in which you are the prime of your life. Remember, you will be working for the next 40 years. Take this brief moment in time (4 years) to enjoy yourself - to challenge yourself, and learn stuff and do stuff while you're still young.

Good luck in the future and I hope that you discover what makes you happy soon - whether it be medicine or something else.

Cheers!

Group_theory
Penn Class of 2003
PCOM Class of 2007

 

[Aberfly]

Hi Tim,
It all depends on which DO and which MD schools you are talking about. On average, I would say that yes, DO schools accept applicants with numbers slightly less than MD schools. However, DO schools take more into account than just numbers (as do MD schools, but DO schools put more emphasis on) things like volunteer record, medical research, etc. One can attend Caribbean MD schools with much lower numbers than a DO school would accept.

During your four years of medical school, two will probably be spent in the classroom and two out in rotations. The classes will include things science classes like Gross Anatomy, Physiology, Biochemistry, Histology and Microbiology; as well as medical sciences such as Pathology, General Surgery, Nutrition, Pharm, etc. Also, DO schools offer the chance to get an extra skill and take an additional class- Osteopathic Manipulation. After those four years, things change, but people generally move onto a residency program in a career path/specialty of their choice. This can take about four to seven years.

Good luck! Feel free to email me if you have questions. Also, check out some DO organizations online or in your home town for additional information.

 

[Toejam]

The requirement criteria for osteopathic schools compared with allopathic (DO vs. MD) are really negligible. In my opinion, the slight difference is due, in part, to philisophical differences in admission policies. DO school tend to favor candidates with more real world experience and do not factor in age as much as MD schools do. I think because of this you find more accepted applicants to DO school with great, relevant experience, but maybe slightly less stellar numbers. I'm a perfect example. My GPA and MCAT scores were respectable, but not spectacular. I'm also much older than the average student (41). I do have a ton of healthcare related experience, though, and a true desire to be an osteopathic physician. I think that these factors were instrumental in my gaining admission for the class of 2003.

The other thing I wanted to mention is that there is absolutely no difference between MD's and DO's in practice. In fact, I saw a very well-respected and well known orthopedic surgeon (MD) for a back problem last week and mentioned that I was going to osteopathic school this year. The first words out of his mouth (spoken to his PA) were "That's great! There's absolutely no difference between MD's and DO's. DO's are in every specialty". If anything, DO's have additional training in musculoskeletal manipulation that MD's don't.

I can't wait.

 

[Tim Haas]

thanks for the input...yeah, i think im leaning towards the osteopathic route, but i have quite a few years yet until i need to really think hard and start my mcat studies

 

[Toejam]

I would suggest continuing to check up on this site. It'll help answer a lot of questions that you're bound to come up with.

Good luck!

 

[youngjock]

the only reason why the scores are diff is because MDs are greedy.

the med. schools are the only schools that qualified people who can't get in. there are law schools that open at night, I don't see why med. schools are so hard on choosing their applicants.

some of the applicants just have no choice but to go to do schools. how many the do graduates actually actively practice what they learned from osteopathic routine? i don't know.

i think that instead of going war, wasting all the money, we can use that money to open up a bunch more med. schools.

 

[oceandocDO]

i think that instead of going war, wasting all the money, we can use that money to open up a bunch more med. schools.

Some advice: take a few classes in health policy and get involved with the national policy agenda regarding health care. You'll see it's a much more complicated issue than simply "opening up some night medical schools" so more qualified people can be doctors.

some of the applicants just have no choice but to go to do schools. how many the do graduates actually actively practice what they learned from osteopathic routine? i don't know

Actually, probably all practice what they learned from the osteopathic route. It's the only way they know how. Superficially it may not look different on a chart or on a SOAP note than what an MD may write, but the thought process may be different (remember different does not equal contradictory). Do all use OMM? No, but OMM is not the basis of osteopathic medicine, it's merely a tool. Just as a dermatologist will not use the same tools as a gastroenterologist, not all D.Os use all the same tools. This doesnt equate to the profession being divided or splintered, it simply equates to the profession having more tools.

Take this for what you will.

 

[AviatorDoc]

There has been a significant trend in the 90s that may reflect upon the profession as a whole. OMM is on a significant decline in usage. This is based on OMM billing from osteopathic hospitals. Similar stats are available for outpatient facilities.

For better or worse, DOs are becoming more MD-like in their practices. On the other hand, MDs are becoming more DO-like as well. Many allopathic schools are creating "alternative" medicine classes. The whole "focusing on the disease" addage really hasn't been applicable since the late 80s, early 90s. MDs recognize that the body is a unit, and that structure and function are interrelated. There are good MDs and bad ones. There are good DOs and bad ones.

DO schools have less stringent requirements as far as numbers go, but that doesn't mean that each DO student is any less qualified to be a doctor than the MD. There has been absolutely correlation between premed grades and patient outcomes.

To learn OMM really well takes time & practice. Osteopathic schools do well in teaching these techniques, and patients who get manipulation seek out good doctors. But if you REALLY want to be an MD and you REALLY want to manipulate, you can do both.

 

[oceandocDO]

For better or worse, DOs are becoming more MD-like in their practices

IMO, DOs were never non-MD in their practice. By this I mean both professions were out for the same goal. Each used similar methods to achieve it, albeit with slightly different personal philosophies of how they got there. If there ever was a time in modern medicine where a DO's chart, admitting theories, or pharmacological theories were different than how MDs practiced, please explain when and how. The only thing that's changing is the awareness of osteopathic medicine, which has increased. This is sometimes mistaken for DOs becoming more "MD-like", when the only thing that really changed is the quantity of DOs, not the quality.

Oh, also, regarding OMM billing, yes it has gone down probably, although I'd like to see the figures as to how much. What I'd be even more interested to see is the correlation with the dramatic rise of physical therapy, as many of PTs foundations derive their tennants from the basics of osteopathic medicine. PTs often "steal" patients from DOs who manipulate, and MDs rarely refer patients to DOs for manipulation, but often refer patients to PTs for roughly the same treatments.

This whole argument over the semantics of philosophy can go on, but look at it this way: the 2 professions are each building identical, separate, neighboring houses out of brick and mortar. At the end of construction, both houses are equally resistant to weathering, yet they may have been put together a bit differently. Maybe one house used a different type of mortar, another has nails in different places, they both arrange the furniture differently on the interior too. However, from outside, afar, both houses are identical, yet not to the inhabitants. As the neighbors grow to know each other, they start to learn and borrow tools and ideas from one another. From afar, patients may not know whether their care has been with an allopathic or osteopathic flavor, yet their doctor does. If the doctor is comfortable with his or her "house", so be it. I'll still shovel my neighbor's walkway when it snows.

 

[Tim Haas]

Another ?, when they say 1 yr of bio for example...my college has 3 quarters a year, with bio1, 2, 3 and then the associated labs...They are all weighted 3 credit hrs each, with labs being worth 1 credit hr a piece or something. Do i just need to take like bio 1, 2 and then the associated labs, or must i take all 3 bios, chems, etc. and the labs? So basically, when a Osteo school requires 8 semester credit hrs, does that mean the same as 8 credit hours(thats what my school goes by).? thanks

 

[DrSmiles]

Boy! Do I ever wish I was that much on the ball when I was a high school senior. You have p l e n t y of time to figure out the med school route, so don't worry so much!
Chances are good that your college has a pre-med counseling dept. Most major colleges have this service- they help you put your stuff together and tell you what you need and when.
Some schools only want 8 hours of bio and chem, some schools request 10 hours. Don't sell yourself short on any required classes, and besides, the extra bio or chem will only help you that much more on the MCAT. And I would definitely recommend taking at least biochem, maybe even genetics because it really helps you understand material when you finally make it to med school, and makes your life a little easier in the long run.

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

Originally posted by group_theory
In general, yes it is true. The average stats for all of DO schools is lower than the average stats for all MD schools, but not by much. Remember there is a wide variability between MD schools, from Harvard/Yale/Hopkins down to Finch/Drexel/SLU.

You had to go and put SLU in the mix. Slu's average mcat is 31.3 and their average gpa 3.65, I wouldn't say slu is easy to get into if that's what your insinuating. PCOM's average mcat is 24.6 and gpa is 3.33, something to think about. These numbers come from the princeton review "Complete Book of Medical Schools," 2002 edition.

 

[save10]

which school is SLU? I'm much too lazy to look it up.

 

[shindog]

Originally posted by save10
which school is SLU? I'm much too lazy to look it up.

St. Louis University.

Stay clear from this school.

 

[Adcadet]

the DO/MD thing also seems to differ regionally. I've never seen a DO in practice (I'm from MN), and word on the street among people I know is that people who go to DO school do so as a backup to an MD school, much as they might go to a Carribean med school as a fallback to a US medical school. I've heard of a few people who turned down a DO acceptance for an MD acceptance, but I have yet to hear somebody say they turned down an MD acceptance for a DO school.

I know my father is well aware of DOs...he grew up in Missouri. Perhaps growing up in MN were there aren't many DOs (or maybe it was just in my neighborhood or just the group of health care providers I've seen over the years) has biased my views.

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

Originally posted by shindog
St. Louis University.

Stay clear from this school.

Why stay clear of SLU? Because their USMLE pass rate was low, during their curriculum change? Shindog, you said in an old thread that around 20 students failed the USMLE last year. Out of 151 students, that is a pass rate of around 87%. DO students pass rate is around 77% of first time takers. Slu would still have a higher pass rate then the average DO school, I'm tired of people bad mouthing SLU. Most of you DO guys couldn't get accepted there even if you tried (I said most not all). SLU is a good school, my sister and her husband went there. My sister, and her husband both did their residency at UCLA, my sister in peds, and my brother inlaw in surgery. She makes like 150K a year and he makes about 350K now, not bad for coming from SLU. If you look at SLU's match list, it isn't bad at all. Yes, I'm biased I got accepted there too, but I'll most likely be going to school in Chicago, and no it isn't a DO school.

 

[group_theory]

Please, please - we're moving away from the original poster's question.

But after saying that, I'll now be hypocritical

1. They're/there/their - something taught in elementary school - quite vexing to see a college grad not know the difference

2. There (not their or they're) are reasons why the DO first-time pass rate for USMLE Step 1 is 77%. You said not to judge SLU USMLE pass rates based on numbers because of circumstances. Well - don't judge DO first-time pass-rates based on numbers either. There are circumstances (which were mentioned several times in this forum - too bad search is disabled).

3. Like it or not, SLU is clump with Finch and Drexel/MCP/Hahnemann based on preception. Are their stats higher? Probably - but it will take time before preception can be changed.

4. Unless you attend a top-10 med school, it does not matter where you go to med school - MD or DO (well, in the US at least). Please stop making conclusory statements about DO based on personal biased and perception (there's that darn word again).

5. SLU is an excellent school - producing great physicians and teachers. So is Drexel, and Finch, and other DO schools. There is no need in this post to go defend one school or another.

When all is said and done - we will all be practicing medicine (broad definition). We will all complain about call schedules, or acrimonious attending, or stupid patients. In my eyes, a Hopkins alumnus attending is no different than a SLU alumnus attending - I'll still have to report to him/her.

Summary: Chill out - and let's be friends

 

[Albah]

Yes, DO statistics may be a bit lower than MD ones. MD and DO schools have slightly different criteria on how to accept an applicant, which reflects the stat differences, but it sure does not make getting into DO school a breeze. The application process can
be very random, so even if you have a 4.0 and 35 MCAT, it doesn't guarantee you a spot. You hear time after time about people with lower stats getting into med school (that would probably be me ) and I honestly think that many factors take part in that...how early you apply, personal statement, what schools are looking for at a certain time, and even the mood of the adcoms. This goes for both MD and DO.

In the end, the school you choose is where you would feel most comfortable, DO or MD...after all, they are all considered medical schools. Personally, I applied to both and am turning down 2 MD schools since I have been accepted at a DO school.

We just have to remember that we all have our own reasons to getting into medicine and if a certain philosophy fits our needs better, then so be it. Once in medical school, the thing that determines the kind of doctor you will be is your character and how well you prepare yourself in the school of your choice. If you want to be a doctor, DO or MD school will get you there.

Best of luck!
Albah

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

Originally posted by group_theory


But after saying that, I'll now be hypocritical

1. They're/there/their - something taught in elementary school - quite vexing to see a college grad not know the difference

People on this board are always jumping on my English. Okay, yes I graduated from college (UCLA). English is not my primary language. I'm a Vietnamese fob( fresh off the boat), I wasn't lucky enough to attend elementary school in the U.S., I attended elementary school in a refugee camp. I admitt my english is bad but I do know what ad homonym (don't jump on my spelling) is. So debate my arguments don't attack the person. Yes lets all be friends, but friends can talk trash to each other and still have a beer together afterwards.

 

[shindog]

Originally posted by Deuce 007 MD
Why stay clear of SLU? Because their USMLE pass rate was low, during their curriculum change? Shindog, you said in an old thread that around 20 students failed the USMLE last year. Out of 151 students, that is a pass rate of around 87%. DO students pass rate is around 77% of first time takers. Slu would still have a higher pass rate then the average DO school, I'm tired of people bad mouthing SLU. Most of you DO guys couldn't get accepted there even if you tried (I said most not all). SLU is a good school, my sister and her husband went there. My sister, and her husband both did their residency at UCLA, my sister in peds, and my brother inlaw in surgery. She makes like 150K a year and he makes about 350K now, not bad for coming from SLU. If you look at SLU's match list, it isn't bad at all. Yes, I'm biased I got accepted there too, but I'll most likely be going to school in Chicago, and no it isn't a DO school.

You forget that I go to OSU-COM. Of the 40 or so students here that take the USMLE every year, our pass rate is consistently 98%-100%. We have Dr. Goljan, the USMLE guru. So I chose to go to a school that has a much higher USMLE pass rate than SLU -and we're a DO school. KCOM also has a similar track record. If you saw my old thread I did get accepted to SLU. I know more about SLU than most. I know SLU med school professors, students, members of the board, etc., etc. The program is just not as good as it once was. One thing that SLU does consistently is match very well. I'm not sure how they pull it off, but they always seem to match students at top tier residencies in some very competitive specialties. I think that's more a testament to the quality of the students that go there, not the quality of the program. I'm not badmouthing the students, I'm badmouthing the program. Unfortunately SLU has a president that doesn't care much about his students. All he wants to do is build fountains.

 

[maysqrd]

Originally posted by Tim Haas
Another ?, when they say 1 yr of bio for example...my college has 3 quarters a year, with bio1, 2, 3 and then the associated labs...They are all weighted 3 credit hrs each, with labs being worth 1 credit hr a piece or something. Do i just need to take like bio 1, 2 and then the associated labs, or must i take all 3 bios, chems, etc. and the labs? So basically, when a Osteo school requires 8 semester credit hrs, does that mean the same as 8 credit hours(thats what my school goes by).? thanks

To try and answer this questions, there is usually a conversion equation from schools with quarter system to semeter systems. 8 hours at a semester school is not the same as 8 hours at a quarter school, why, because you have gone only two quarters and that is usually less weeks in school than someone that has gone two semesters. Semesters are usually 16 weeks in length and quarters are usually 10-12 weeks in length This is why you will usually see "a year of" in most school requirements because of the difference between the semester and quarter systems.

So I would take the year of biology just to make sure some admissions committee doesn't come back and tell you that after applying a conversion equation that you really only have 6 units of biology and need more units.

 

[oceandocDO]

Deuce MD:

Let's not take the high road just yet about not attacking things of personal nature. I seem to remember you attacking NYCOM jewish students and jewish faculty for only helping out other jewish students, among other very inaccurate and unfounded accusations.

http://www.studentdoctor.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57276

Slu would still have a higher pass rate then the average DO school, I'm tired of people bad mouthing SLU. Most of you DO guys couldn't get accepted there even if you tried (I said most not all).

Just like we're tired of you bashing our schools, which you have no first hand knowledge of. Livin' in glass houses and throwin' stones again, huh?

IMO, you may personally not want a doctor with a D.O. after their name, but I may not want one that has trouble with communicating the english language, including writing the english language on my chart. Just an opinion, nothing personal, honestly. Just making a point that there's more to being a good doctor than mcats, board scores, etc.

You spend a whole lotta time on the D.O. boards for being a premed without a whole lotta interest in osteopathic medicine. Just flexing those big biceps of yours?

 

[hedging]

SLU is a good school.
The bad ones are MeHarry, Howard, Texas Tech, Marshall etc.

 

[RockandRolldoc]

There are no bad medical schools within the borders of the united states, i don't know why we argue over this fact. The only thing that is bad is the attitude of a lot of the students enrolled at all the schools, MD and DO. From most of my experience though, I'd rather hang out with DO students......my girlfriend attending an MD institution agrees. Once in a while though I do meet some cool people in her class and on SDN, so the MD's can be alright, the ones that don't ride their high horse to compensate for low self esteem, and yes, there are DO's that do this too....just not as many. I'll take the doctor I can communicate with better, not the highest test scores. What many pre med's dont' know is that 80% of the time, a correct diagnosis is made when taking a thorough history. Communication is key, and what we have here is a failure to communicate.

 

[skypilot]

You know people who think they have never seen a DO in practice are usually wrong. I was talking to a friend of mine about her doctor the other day and how great he was. Turns out he is a DO, she didn't even know. She also didn't know what a DO was she just thought of him as her OB/GYN. That was in primary care. You think you would know if your radiologist, pathologist, or anesthesiologist was a DO?

Did you know that Harvard gives out an A.B. degree instead of a B.S. degree?

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Deuce MD:

Let's not take the high road just yet about not attacking things of personal nature. I seem to remember you attacking NYCOM jewish students and jewish faculty for only helping out other jewish students, among other very inaccurate and unfounded accusations.

http://www.studentdoctor.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57276


IMO, you may personally not want a doctor with a D.O. after their name, but I may not want one that has trouble with communicating the english language, including writing the english language on my chart. Just an opinion, nothing personal, honestly. Just making a point that there's more to being a good doctor than mcats, board scores, etc.

Ocean,

I wasn't attacking any one person in paticularly, I was just relaying some of my brothers opinions on NYCOM. He is a student there and told me about the ethinic cliques, and how they don't share old test and things like that. As for doctors having problems communicating english, once you go out on the wards you'll notice alot of doctors with broken english. They might mispell a word or use the wrong there/ their/ they're, but they are still great doctors. Your attending, or residents might be an FMG, and you'll have to deal with that like it or not. My father is an FMG, and his english is terrible, but he still did hes residency at Columbia(gen surg), and at Cornell (plastics). He is now a chief of surg at a hospital, and guess what his english is terribble, I can hardly understand him. But he is still a great doctor, good enough that he has been promoted to chief of surg, and the people that work under him have to deal with his bad english. Again in my nycom post I was not saying anything about not liking different races, just observations of exam hords. I don't have big biceps, but my brother does. Ocean, you might know who he is. If you tell me who you are I'll tell him to be friend you and maybe he won't be so miserable there.

 

[Doctor Peloncito]

Originally posted by skypilot
You know people who think they have never seen a DO in practice are usually wrong. I was talking to a friend of mine about her doctor the other day and how great he was. Turns out he is a DO, she didn't even know. She also didn't know what a DO was she just thought of him as her OB/GYN. That was in primary care. You think you would know if your radiologist, pathologist, or anesthesiologist was a DO?

Did you know that Harvard gives out an A.B. degree instead of a B.S. degree?

I have a funny story that's kind of related to what you brought up. My mother-in-law is a RN in a convalescent hospital and has to deal with a lot of doctors (both DO and MD). She knows the difference, and she also knows that DO's are as much doctors as MD's are. Nonetheless she was schooled in the late fifties/early sixties and has some unconcious bias going on. She has told me that she doesn't think DO's are as good as MD's (her justification was one interraction with one DO as a patient). Recently, we were visiting and my daughter came down with a UTI. We were going to take her to the emergency room to get a prescription for the infection when she had us call her primary care doc to see if he would see her. Well, it turns out that he is a DO and she didn't know it. She has been going to him for years and she didn't know that he was a DO. I got a kick out of that

WBDO

 

[oceandocDO]

Duece...

My point in this ridiculous argument is that you come on this board and sling mud about something you have no idea about. You defend a school by belittling an entire profession instead of proving why SLU is a great school. Your personal story of your sister's experience there would have sufficed but in your insecure nature you bash D.O.s. I'm not sure why you're so motivated to berate osteopathic medicine, when I guarantee, someday, somewhere, you'll have a D.O. attending. Will you have the guts to show him/her the same opinion? Your arguments are nothing that hasnt been said on here before, so really you're just making yourself look rather unconfident.

Regarding your brother at NYCOM, I'm starting to think that this story of ethic hoarding of past test questions is a convenient way for him to make up for academic shortcomings. A convenient scapegoat. I can honestly say that having old test questions will not allow you to do any better than anyone else 99% of the time, as test questions are very, very rarely repeated. The student government actually publishes a CD of old TQs and gives them to every student in the first year class, including your brother. The faculty knows this CD exists, hence the reason they rarely repeat questions. Tell your brother to study more and stop worrying about if someone else has all the answers ahead of time, because they dont.

As far as the bad grammar above, I could care less how people spell and write on the internet, of all places. Congrats to your dad for being as successful as you say he is. He lived the american dream. But, also know that if I worked under him, I would not want to have to deal with his broken english. I have had to learn from doctors with poor english and it definitely affects the learning process. Surgeons can get away with bad english more often because they rarely talk to their patients in a diagnostic environment, where communication is key. An internist, FP or OB/Gyn, for example, doesnt have quite that luxury. My point was that it takes more to be an effective physician than the school's name on the degree on your wall.

Enough for now. Cheers.

 

[group_theory]

Originally posted by skypilot
Did you know that Harvard gives out an A.B. degree instead of a B.S. degree?

Yes I did know that. All the ivies give out the AB degree in lieu of the SB (or BS) degree in their respective college of arts and sciences. The option of getting a BS is not available.

However, the option of getting a BS is still available if you are in another school (not the main college of arts and sciences). Here at Penn, Wharton gives out the BS in Economics, Nursing the BSN, Engineering the BSE or BAS (applied science),
but dear old me - I get the AB - despite the fact that I'm dual majoring in Biochemistry and Chemistry - with a physics minor tossed in - all because I'm stuck here in the college of arts and craft.

You should see the reaction of my friends who attend other universities. One of them said "dude, BAs are only given to idiots and jocks". Thanks

But it really doesn't matter. A baccalaureate is a baccalaureate, whether it is a AB or a BS. Besides, my degree will be in latin anyway so most people can't even read it

 

[NUcat]

at NU, the sciences are all BA

 

[skypilot]

Which is a better undergraduate degree: B.A. , B.S., or A.B.?



Which is a better doctoral degree in medicine: M.D. or D.O.?

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

Originally posted by skypilot



Which is a better doctoral degree in medicine: M.D. or D.O.?

In the U.S. I admitt it doesn't really matter, but once you go out of this country, you'll have some problems. Something to think about. My father is a plastic surgeon and volunteers to go to third world countries on a regular basis to do reconstructive surgeries mainly on facial deformalities on children. Some/most other countries will give you problems if you wanted to do that w/DO degree.

 

[oceandocDO]

Ahh, poor Deuce, you spoke too soon yet again!

As a D.O., you can travel overseas to most third world countries as a representative of one of the various american physician aid programs. The American license is what's normally required, and yes, D.O.s are licensed to practice medicine in the U.S As volunteering through these organizations is probably the best and safest way to help overseas, it's not often a problem. If you wanted to leave the U.S. for good and set up shop overseas, there are dozens and dozens of countries (including Russia, Germany, China and your very own Vietnam, etc etc ) which recognize the D.O. license fully, and more are added every year. The ones that dont accept foreign D.O.s often dont accept American MDs either and battle both doctors with mountains of paperwork, but when it comes to volunteering or aid missions, these countries rarely turn down the help.

Something to think about!

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Ahh, poor Deuce, you spoke too soon yet again!

As a D.O., you can travel overseas to most third world countries as a representative of one of the various american physician aid programs. The American license is what's normally required, and yes, D.O.s are licensed to practice medicine in the U.S As volunteering through these organizations is probably the best and safest way to help overseas, it's not often a problem. If you wanted to leave the U.S. for good and set up shop overseas, there are dozens and dozens of countries (including Russia, Germany, China and your very own Vietnam, etc etc ) which recognize the D.O. license fully, and more are added every year. The ones that dont accept foreign D.O.s often dont accept American MDs either and battle both doctors with mountains of paperwork, but when it comes to volunteering or aid missions, these countries rarely turn down the help.

Something to think about!

Yes you got me ocean. All I said was there would be some problems.

 

[group_theory]

Originally posted by skypilot
Which is a better undergraduate degree: B.A. , B.S., or A.B.?
Which is a better doctoral degree in medicine: M.D. or D.O.?

The AB of course.
What other degree can make 1/3 of the readers think it's an associate of business degree, another 1/3 thinking that you took lots of fruity and foreign courses, and the last 1/3 knowing that it stands for Artium Baccalaureatus and can probably give you the OED definition and the original use of such term.

Which raises an interesting (albeit dorky) dilema - so I put down BA or AB on my C.V.? And what about schools that give out all 3 - the AB, BA, and BS? Are the AB and BA equivalent?

Truth be told - there are restrictions placed on you if you get a DO and want to practice internationally. You can't practice in Ontario (Toronto) or England. France hates all American doctors, MDs and DOs alike. The main problem stems from the fact that they have their own DOs who are not trained as physicians. However, if you want to practice medicine in a 3rd world country w/ a severe shortage of physicians - I doubt that the DO degree will stop the government from granting a license. When deciding between DO and MD, one must factor this into account.

 

[oceandocDO]

You can't practice in Ontario (Toronto) or England

Actually, Ontario annouced last fall it would accept US trained D.O.s as full physicians. Part of the press release:

Toronto: November 21, 2002, Ernie Eves, Ontario?s Premier, and Tony Clement, Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, announced a new eight-point plan that includes recognition of U.S.-educated osteopathic physicians. DOs will be eligible to apply for a Fast-Track process for licensure

Great Britain has shown interest, but the British osteopaths, who are very engrained into British medical culture, lobby heavily against American trained D.O.s coming over and providing competition and being "confused" with the more educated breed bearing the same name across the pond.

Some U.S. trained D.O.s have travelled with professional and collegiate American sports teams to the England though and have been allowed to practice.

The AOA has a crowd of people working on this though, and they suspect these walls will crumble as D.O.s become more active in the WHO, which is really a crock since the WHO doesnt accredit any doctor in the U.S., but such is life in international politics.

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Actually, Ontario annouced last fall it would accept US trained D.O.s as full physicians. Part of the press release:



Great Britain has shown interest, but the British osteopaths, who are very engrained into British medical culture, lobby heavily against American trained D.O.s coming over and providing competition and being "confused" with the more educated breed bearing the same name across the pond.

Some U.S. trained D.O.s have travelled with professional and collegiate American sports teams to the England though and have been allowed to practice.

The AOA has a crowd of people working on this though, and they suspect these walls will crumble as D.O.s become more active in the WHO, which is really a crock since the WHO doesnt accredit any doctor in the U.S., but such is life in international politics.

Why do any of this, if given the choice just go MD. Please don't flame me I'm just, as new yorkers say, bustin ya ballz. Forgetaboudit.

 

[oceandocDO]

Haha, you pickin up some good material "rollin through the hood". You really do crack me up. Thug premed MD with an open mind, the world needs more of you.

Oh, and I know english aint your dillio and all, but if you're gonna say it, say it right... fughedabodit. Maybe work on the Cali lingo first.... gnarly dude.

How's that UCLA basketball team doing this year? Hmmmm. Is Wooden still alive? Bring him back, you seem to live in the past anyway.

Best of luck trollin' the D.O. boards. Flex for us anytime!!

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
I know english aint your dillio and all, but if you're gonna say it, say it right... fughedabodit. Maybe work on the Cali lingo first.... gnarly dude.

Word, FUGHEDABODIT. In cali it's gggggnarly dude, surfs up broham.

 

[skypilot]

The problem with D.O. practicing internationally is only a result of other countries confusion about what a D.O. means in the U.S. which obviously is different from what it means in England.

If they don't get it just show them your board certification in Neurosurgery, maybe then they will understand.

 

[Dr.Tong]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
Haha, you pickin up some good material "rollin through the hood". You really do crack me up. Thug premed MD with an open mind, the world needs more of you.

Oh, and I know english aint your dillio and all, but if you're gonna say it, say it right... fughedabodit. Maybe work on the Cali lingo first.... gnarly dude.

How's that UCLA basketball team doing this year? Hmmmm. Is Wooden still alive? Bring him back, you seem to live in the past anyway.

Best of luck trollin' the D.O. boards. Flex for us anytime!!

Easy there man. Yeah, the kid obviously doesn't like DOs, and he should be called on that. But you also got comments like this flying around

the only reason why the scores are diff is because MDs are greedy.

Yet, no peep from you there. Keep the bashing fair brother, or not at all.

just trying to make friends

 

[oceandocDO]

Thanks for the advice, doc. Anyone who has read this thread including the rest of my posts knows those comments were meant in sarcasm. I got the "rollin through the hood" from Deuce's own friggin signature and the bad english comment because he admitted his english sucks above! Besides, Deuce's contributions to this board in other threads have been anything but professional or open minded, IMO, so most would argue, including him, that a little friendly ribbing is allowed.

As far as the MDs being greedy comment, let's not get ahead of ourselves, as that poster is a pre-MD student I believe. If you read the rest of that post above you'd realize most of it was also either very sarcastic or poorly thought out. You're really reaching for a crutch if you need to parade that comment out as evidence of D.O.s bashing our MD colleagues. Please.

(smiling).... Thanks for the lecture though!

 

[md-student]

As a student in an allopathic program, I can say there is a lot of bias against osteopathic programs among the students. However, I've seen just the opposite in the hospitals and clinics. DOs have been seen as equals for the most part, at least at the med center I'm at.

As a matter of fact, during one of my rotations with an MD, she mentioned that I should spend some time with the DO because he can offer a different perspective.

To understand the negative sentiment towards DOs, just look at the history of allopathic training. Historically, MDs have felt threatened by others infringing on their business. They tried to either completely do away with the competition or force them to become part of the allopathic world. Just look at what happened to homeopathy. The thing about osteopathy is that it survived, while at the same time enjoying all the rights of allopathic medicine without having to become allopathic.

I don't know why people have to argue over this. Does it really matter if your a DO or an MD? Not really, except maybe in a small number of instances....which probably won't impact anyone at all.

To people who are considering applying to both MD and DO programs; try and look beyond the letters, and pick a school that fits your personality and interests the best. You'll be much happier in the long run....though I can't comment on international medicine.

 

[oceandocDO]

Amen.

 

[lattimer13]

well said md-student

 

[lattimer13]

this thread's scorecard:

oceandocDO - 10 (or something close to that number)

Deuce 007 MD - 0


how many more rounds is this one going to go?

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

I demand a recount from a nonpartisan judge. If not then I demand a rematch, oh it?s already been started in the osteo forum.

 

[Docgeorge]

Originally posted by Adcadet
the DO/MD thing also seems to differ regionally. I've never seen a DO in practice (I'm from MN),...

Go to Mayo Clinic Website click the button that says department of Anestesia(sp?) and tell me if you see any DOs.

 

[skypilot]

Even better: Everyone is always talking about how hard it is to get dermatology as a residency. Here is a D.O. dermatologist at the Mayo clinic in Rochester MN.


http://www.mayoclinic.org/dermatology-rst/doctors.html