life style of doctors in australia compared to USA

[dyneinclathrine]

Any input?

for instance internal medicine hospitalists in USA work 7on/7off 12hrs shifts and the salary is around 220 k...what about Australia?

Also would like to ask about critical care and pulmonology...what am hearing is the life style is better in Australia and the pay is pretty much the same or even higher if you go to rural areas?

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[Leforte]

There really are not hospitalists in Australia, the same way that there are in the USA.

ICU training is also very different in Australia vs the USA.

For most specialties, pay is higher in Australia if a good portion of your practice is in the private sector. Salaries are similar if you are working in the public system. In general, however, the cost of living as well as taxes are far greater in Australia.

Lifestyle is better in Australia as the majority of complicated stuff is sent to the public systems where the registrars have far more freedom than do residents in the USA to manage patients with limited oversight from the consultants/attendings.

 

[rayjay]

In general, however, the cost of living as well as taxes are far greater in Australia.

Can't stress that enough. You can earn far more in your intern year than any resident can in North America. But cost of living is also quite a lot higher. Having spent several months in the US and having grown up in Canada, the cost of living here is significantly higher.
That being said, you aren't going to be struggling financially as a physician in Australia either...

 

[september2012]

Hi,
I am a foreign trained Radiologist and I am in a situation to choose between Australia and US to start getting licence and work as a radiologist.
I know about the rules of specialist pathway in Australia but don't know how it will really work. For example if I become partially comparable and be supposed to pass 2 years training before part 2 exam, is it easy to find position for these two years? And if I pass the exam, can I have private practice? Finally, if the balance of income and taxes and expenditure are almost the same in Australia and USA, what are the other factors which make differences in quality of life for a specialist in these countries?
Thanks in advance, S

 

[Blankdots]

I can't comment so much on retraining as I am still in medical school myself. I believe if you've done at least two years of a fellowship in the US it becomes much easier to retrain if you move to Australia. However you will need to look this up.

In terms of lifestyle, Having lived in both the US as a PR for four years (albeit in my childhood) and Australia as a citizen - I can say that living in Australia is MUCH better if you can afford it.

The day to day lifestyle is much more relaxed, people are friendlier and crime is lower. That said, cost of living is very expensive right now both in terms of food and housing.

In terms of practicing as a doctor. As someone said, you will get paid a lot more in your training than in the US. As an intern you can start at 60k (depending on location), and perhaps make up to 80k with overtime. As you progress through training your salary will increase every year. In the US, you generally make around 50k (??) throughout your residency?

The other major pro is that working hours are generally much shorter. Most interns will do 60 hours or less a week. Also outside normal hours you will be paid overtime (although this is a point of contention as payroll department hates people claiming too much overtime). In the US 80 hours is the current minimum and some surgical programs easily do 100 hours. The shorter hours in Australia means you actually have a life outside medicine - more importantly you are far less likely to make mistakes. However that said - training is naturally less vigorous as a result.

As a specialist, it really depends what you do. In Australia there are public and private systems. Generally the top doctors work in both systems at the same time. Private pays more and things get done a lot faster - however working as a staff specialist in a public hospital is highly sought after - and it is unlikely you will land a place without extensive experience/higher degree (PHD). Landing a job in a public hospital will help you build a reputation that you can then use to lure patients into your private rooms.

 

[Phloston]

I've lived in Australia for three years so far (and am a 3rd-year medical student).

Despite the mystical dreams I had when I had first moved here about how things would be, I would NEVER live here in the future. That is an f'ng strong statement considering, just a couple years ago, I had planned on practicing / making a life for myself here. Things are just so expensive and it's ******ed. The air might be cleaner than it is in New York, but the lifestyle is not better when fruit or cheese at the supermarket are prohibitively over-priced, no excuses my friend. I live off canned tuna, milk and eggs (and random fruit/vegetables here or there when I feel special). Whey protein is also 4x as expensive here. Not only that, but the costs of cars and buying a house are essentially double what they are in the States.

My plan is to go back to the USA and do double the # of activities / have double the amount of financial power than I would ever have here.

 

[Blankdots]

I've lived in Australia for three years so far (and am a 3rd-year medical student).

Despite the mystical dreams I had when I had first moved here about how things would be, I would NEVER live here in the future. That is an f'ng strong statement considering, just a couple years ago, I had planned on practicing / making a life for myself here. Things are just so expensive and it's ******ed. The air might be cleaner than it is in New York, but the lifestyle is not better when fruit or cheese at the supermarket are prohibitively over-priced, no excuses my friend. I live off canned tuna, milk and eggs (and random fruit/vegetables here or there when I feel special). Whey protein is also 4x as expensive here. Not only that, but the costs of cars and buying a house are essentially double what they are in the States.

My plan is to go back to the USA and do double the # of activities / have double the amount of financial power than I would ever have here.

As a student its hard. But once you're practicing as a consultant the renumeration is pretty good and you'll hardly be starving. And yes you might have double the amount of financial power, but also half the time to use it.

I think it depends what you want out of life. Australia is very expensive but also very laid back. You will have a life outside medicine if you stay here. Also I don't think you can argue that crime is lower, that people are generally friendlier and that working hours are quite reasonable.

 

[Phloston]

As a student its hard. But once you're practicing as a consultant the renumeration is pretty good and you'll hardly be starving. And yes you might have double the amount of financial power, but also half the time to use it.

I think it depends what you want out of life. Australia is very expensive but also very laid back. You will have a life outside medicine if you stay here. Also I don't think you can argue that crime is lower, that people are generally friendlier and that working hours are quite reasonable.

That's the problem. Australia is too laid-back. That's fine when you first arrive here and do a little travelling and surfing, but when push comes to shove and you're talking career moves, the medical students and doctors just don't know anything relatively-speaking. There's no USMLE-type exam so medical students pass but aren't adequately assessed. Quite frankly, I'm terrified by the healthcare here.

 

[Blankdots]

That's the problem. Australia is too laid-back. That's fine when you first arrive here and do a little travelling and surfing, but when push comes to shove and you're talking career moves, the medical students and doctors just don't know anything relatively-speaking. There's no USMLE-type exam so medical students pass but aren't adequately assessed. Quite frankly, I'm terrified by the healthcare here.

That's true to an extent. But I think there is a good argument against that.

First our health outcomes based on life expectancy and child mortality are both lower than the US, and are in line with the better end of developed countries.

This is my theory on why it still works. First, the majority of doctors end up in General Practice. Looking at Australian bureau of statistics - 65% of doctors are GPs in Australia. In the US, only 15-20% of physicians are GPs/Family practice. This means there is significant competition to get into a specialty training program in Australia - and ultimately will weed out students who aren't nearly as competent.

If you talk to doctors at the top public hospitals, the physicians exams and surgical exams are NOT easy to pass. At one of the largest hospitals in Australia, only one neurosurgery registrar finished the program during a period of six years. The rest were weeded out.

The other thing is that GP visits are free (bulk billing ones at least). This means that if you are unhappy with your doctor you can shop around for free. Yes, a bad GP can kill people and they are considered the frontline. I think this is unfortunate. Hopefully now that GP requires five years of training after med school - means that GPs must have a base level of competency.

I think medical school is VERY relaxed in comparison to the US. But the competitiveness of specialty training spots and physician/fellowship exams make up for it down the track. Sure there might not be the consistency of quality GP's - but no system is perfect. I think specialists in Australia are still very adequately trained - due to increasing competitiveness of programs.

 

[drpopeye]

That's the problem. Australia is too laid-back. That's fine when you first arrive here and do a little travelling and surfing, but when push comes to shove and you're talking career moves, the medical students and doctors just don't know anything relatively-speaking. There's no USMLE-type exam so medical students pass but aren't adequately assessed. Quite frankly, I'm terrified by the healthcare here.

Australia is laid back in some areas but the fact is that most specialist exams are very hard. Its at another level from med school. Especially UQ. I was at UQ and remember thinking everything was done to maximize profit there. (ie. PBL + offloading students to the hospitals and then only doing assessments only 2x per year) It felt like the school operated based on the concept of taking as much money as possible while providing little in return.

There isn't much focus on teaching when you are at work either. There is a painful intern year but then people often float around for 2-3 years as residents not picking up much in terms of knowledge/skills. I felt like the second year out was like putting in time. 3rd year I was out locuming to pay off those international fee loans. During those years you don't have pressure to study since you are putting in the hours at work. That just makes it more difficult if you make it into a competitive specialty like radiology, anest, surg etc. You are putting in 50-60 hours a week and having to study long hours at home.

And although you might not put in 80hrs a week, the focus is on doing work here instead of education. When you are a surg reg you put in tons of hours on call. Some people don't make it through their primary exams to continue. 4 attempts and you are out forever. Rads is similar. Not sure about anest since they recently changed their programs. In the US and Canada, your program really tries to get you through. Not here though. It can be very scary putting in years of training knowing that you contract is renewed on a yearly basis.

If you know exactly what you want, it makes sense to finish it quickly. I am PGY6 but only into my 3rd year of specializing. The NA system is good for those that know what they want to do. Try to max out the USMLE and get where you want to be.

 

[Phloston]

Australia is laid back in some areas but the fact is that most specialist exams are very hard. Its at another level from med school. Especially UQ. I was at UQ and remember thinking everything was done to maximize profit there. (ie. PBL + offloading students to the hospitals and then only doing assessments only 2x per year) It felt like the school operated based on the concept of taking as much money as possible while providing little in return.

There isn't much focus on teaching when you are at work either. There is a painful intern year but then people often float around for 2-3 years as residents not picking up much in terms of knowledge/skills. I felt like the second year out was like putting in time. 3rd year I was out locuming to pay off those international fee loans. During those years you don't have pressure to study since you are putting in the hours at work. That just makes it more difficult if you make it into a competitive specialty like radiology, anest, surg etc. You are putting in 50-60 hours a week and having to study long hours at home.

And although you might not put in 80hrs a week, the focus is on doing work here instead of education. When you are a surg reg you put in tons of hours on call. Some people don't make it through their primary exams to continue. 4 attempts and you are out forever. Rads is similar. Not sure about anest since they recently changed their programs. In the US and Canada, your program really tries to get you through. Not here though. It can be very scary putting in years of training knowing that you contract is renewed on a yearly basis.

If you know exactly what you want, it makes sense to finish it quickly. I am PGY6 but only into my 3rd year of specializing. The NA system is good for those that know what they want to do. Try to max out the USMLE and get where you want to be.

I like your thinking.