Life in the Military

[r90t]

Part of the problem, which is being discussed in this thread, is that non-physicians are becoming senior leadership at hospitals. A NC officer will likely favor the nurses and may overstep their bounds in making clinical decisions. We know allied health members are a big part of the team effort, however, they are not the captain of the team. When allied health/support staff take equal responsibility in the day to day decisions in patient management, i.e. legally sign orders in charts, then they should have an equal voice. You may manage a coumadin clinic as a pharmacist, but have you actually ever started someone on coumadin without an order from a physician? That is why physicians get upset when the policy makers are non-physicians.

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[cooldreams]

I guess it is all perspective. For those of you who pretty much have prior careers in the military, your perspective is that this is how the military functions, so you accept that.

For those of us who enter the service as physicians (and told that by recruiters), it is different.

I will never accept that a nurse "outranks" me.

I'll be out of the military by July, and for 400,000 a year, I'll drive the secretaries to work, and wax their cars.

i agree with you whole heartedly. both of my parents were in the marine corps, and they both say dont ever get in. my dad was drafted out of college to become a sniper, and my mom almost had to go into intelligence. neither wanted to do what was being forced on them, or take orders from CO's that knew much less than they.

i think for your typical doctor, you dont want to go into the military, because you love the ability to control situations. you have that ability because you are much more trained than anyone else there. the military rank structure takes that training and laughs at it. ever see MASH?? sure you all have... there are a LOT more ppl like frank burns than sherman potter in the military. dont confuse yourselves.....

 

[doctor07]

I think some of the things that have been discussed in this and other forums realistically occur at all levels of medicine, military or civilian. The theme I am getting from some of the disgruntled military physicians is that there is too much bureaucracy and changing if senior medical physicians. Go into the civilian world, and you will see that as well. Healthcare organizations, private hospital corporations, all these present just as many (if not more) hurdles to jump over. Try practicing medicine in a crisis state for personal liability reform. Yes, your GROSS income may be much higher than the military pays you, but after your expenses, it doesn't seem to be that much anymore.

The same gripes I see in all these posts are the same that are in the civilian world. The people I see in here that complain the most are those who won't be happy ANYWHERE. They are the same people who went into medical school thinking that they were getting into the medicine of 20 years ago, where doctors were gods and made wheelbarrows of money. It doesn't happen like that anymore, whether you like it or not. Complaining only degrades your motives as a physician. You can still help people, and do all the noble things you talked about in your interviews, but you have to have a GOOD attitude about it and not complain about every little nuisance.

 

[cooldreams]

I think some of the things that have been discussed in this and other forums realistically occur at all levels of medicine, military or civilian. The theme I am getting from some of the disgruntled military physicians is that there is too much bureaucracy and changing if senior medical physicians. Go into the civilian world, and you will see that as well. Healthcare organizations, private hospital corporations, all these present just as many (if not more) hurdles to jump over. Try practicing medicine in a crisis state for personal liability reform. Yes, your GROSS income may be much higher than the military pays you, but after your expenses, it doesn't seem to be that much anymore. Just a couple of things to think about.

sorry... i enjoy argueing (hence another reason not to join up hehe)...

what you say is yet another reason that private practice is better than military. you use a crisis state with high malpractice premiums to compare to military pay. ok... you have thusly compared the lowest paid private health care doctors to the average military paid doctors. you are over looking the beauty of civilian work... MOVE. yep.. this is also the reason why those "crisis" states are pushing so hard to change malpractice laws - get the docs back in the state!.... enjoy....

 

[militarymd]

The same gripes I see in all these posts are the same that are in the civilian world. The people I see in here that complain the most are those who won't be happy ANYWHERE. They are the same people who went into medical school thinking that they were getting into the medicine of 20 years ago, where doctors were gods and made wheelbarrows of money. It doesn't happen like that anymore, whether you like it or not. Complaining only degrades your motives as a physician. You can still help people, and do all the noble things you talked about in your interviews, but you have to have a GOOD attitude about it and not complain about every little nuisance.

Ah...you must have practiced medicine for quite a few years in both the military and the civilian world to be so knowledgeable about practice environments.

Your insight explains the massive influx of physicians into the military, giving up their bureacracy laden, low paying private practice jobs.

 

[militarymd]

Ah...you must have practiced medicine for quite a few years in both the military and the civilian world to be so knowledgeable about practice environments.

Your insight explains the massive influx of physicians into the military, giving up their bureacracy laden, low paying private practice jobs.

EXTREME sarcasm intended.....in case anyone missed it.

 

[doctor07]

No, I have never practiced medicine in the civilian or military world, but I can hear and see. I have worked closely with physicians and in hospitals for a number of years before going to medical school. You don't have to practice medicine to see that physicians are experiencing the same kind of problems that you speak of. How many hospital boards are made of physicians? How many hospital corporation's CEOs are physicians? Not a lot. Why? Because they want businessmen in charge. This leads to decisions that aren't always too popular to the physicians. The hospital I had worked with lost their cardiothoracic surgeon because of the ineptitude of hospital management, so all patients needing this service were sent to hospitals 60 miles away. THe physicians really loved that, and I didn't need to be practicing medicine to see that. I also don't need to be practicing medicine in the military to READ your comments. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or physician for that matter) to see that what you complain about is the same things that civilian physicians complain about. It isn't isolated.

My point is there are going to be aspects of ANY job that are going to suck. I don't care if it is your dream job, there are going to be things that bother you. Sometimes you have to roll with the punches and do the best you can, because all complaining does is make it harder to go to work, and makes your life that much worse.

 

[doctor07]

I happened to be reading the first post to this thread. MilMD, I think the problem is that you are bitter that you went to medical school and aren't getting the requisite "glory" for being a physician. This is not what medicine is about, and absolutely shouldn't be. I don't want anyone coming to me and kissing my feet because I am a doctor.

Furthermore, I joined the military. The military has a rank structure. I knew that, and I am ok with that. I don't care that since I have gone to school for 4 extra years, so I should have my own lounge, parking lot, and a bigger room on the carrier. What are your motivations in medicine? To have everyone tell you how wonderful you are because you are a physician? Or to show everyone that you are a good physician there to do your job. It is nice to have people respect you, I don't disagree. But to expect it based on just the fact you have extra training is very egotistical. You earn respect. Sorry about the ranting, and if your motives are different I apologize. I just can't stand anyone thinking they deserve more than anyone else because of WHAT they are.

 

[Rudy]

Ahh, the idealism of a fresh pre-med/pre-clinical med student. Cherish it while it lasts...

 

[Rudy]

The bottom line is, doctor07, that military medicine is broken and docs are leaving in droves; you will see this when you finally become an active duty physician, several years from now. In our dept, we have lost 11 of 12 staff in the past two years. Some are more visibly bitter and frustrated than others, but the reality is that the vast majority of the quality, experienced docs are leaving for the civilian world. Some I have seen are so anxious to go that they have their whole offices cleaned out months in advance. The sad thing is that it creates a "How much longer have you got?" atmosphere among those who are left behind (some have likened it to a minimal security prison). Several staff in one dept I rotated through were talking of starting an "HPSP-no way.com" website for potential applicants.

MilitaryMD's views are not the exception. A forum like this is great to provide balance to some of the unsubstantiated fluff and propaganda coming from the recruiters so that people are better informed when they irrevocabally and irreversibly sign the dotted line. It would be nice if more staff physicians visited the board to provide their perspectives.

 

[doctor07]

Good points. I agree that there may be problems. Nobody has addressed the fact that civilian doctors are also having problems, and the civilian world isn't necessarily as pretty as everyone would think. How many doctors in Illinois or Pennsylvania are retiring early to get OUT of medicine as a whole? The "grass is greener" argument that you have all been proposing is not as true as you may dream. SUre I am not a physician yet, but I have spent a lot of time in the medical field.

 

[chillin]

A general surgeon at my school is out of the business and now teaches anatomy? I wonder why? I wonder why the majority of surgeons I run into are grumpy and divorced? Maybe its the specialty and not the military?

 

[militarymd]

Doctor07 and Chillin's views and opinions are quite common among those who are inexperienced and uneducated in medicine and/or the military. I don't mean this in a derogatory way, just that you don't have the experience that those of us who are about 15 years ahead of you in experience..... and have been in military medicine and have seen the civilian side.

What you guys said about seeing a lot of doctors work.....that statement made me roll on the floor laughing today in the ICU where I was reading posts this morning....I was rounding with my residents today, and they couldn't figure out why I was in such a good mood.

Saying that you know what its like to be a doctor because you work for one is like saying "I didn't go to medical school, finished a grueling residency and fellowship, but I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I know what it's like to be a doctor"

The grass IS greener....there is no question about it....otherwise, why is there a unidirectional flux of trained physicians to the civilian side? Not only does everyone leave, why are they having trouble giving away scholarships to recruit students right now?

The grass may be the same color for the lower paying specialties and for the lazy physicians who don't like to work (I hope you guys aren't going to be lazy)......there are a lot of lazy senior officers in the military....ok paycheck every 2 weeks....don't have to see many patients.

On the serious side though, as an attending, I would recommend to you guys to have a little more respect when you start clinicals.....I usually give pretty bad evals to uppity-know-it-all medical students like you guys.... Perhaps its the anonymity of the internet, but in real life, I would make your lives pretty miserable...if you were on rotations with me in the unit.

 

[militarymd]

A general surgeon at my school is out of the business and now teaches anatomy? I wonder why? I wonder why the majority of surgeons I run into are grumpy and divorced? Maybe its the specialty and not the military?

Tell them to join the military, and see what they say....They won't, and the reason is because they know how green the grass is where they are.

 

[militarymd]

Several staff in one dept I rotated through were talking of starting an "HPSP-no way.com" website for potential applicants.

You have no idea how many of my colleagues have talked about this.....but no one ever follows through.

Here is the reason. People get out, get a busy job that gives them everything they ever wanted (that has been the rule, not exception). They are happy and don't want to look back.

I have actually contacted several of my colleagues and asked them to post here, and I got this universal answer: "Screw them, if they are stupid enough like I was to join, they can find out for themselves what it's like"

I personally am not sure of my own motives for posting. I have family who are career military, and I am proud of them for serving their country. I am proud of how I served my country, but the medical community(md, nurse, admin, etc.) is broke and needs some serious fixing.

I guess I just want all who join to know what it is like.

 

[Mirror Form]

Saying that you know what its like to be a doctor because you work for one is like saying "I didn't go to medical school, finished a grueling residency and fellowship, but I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I know what it's like to be a doctor"

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Sorry doctor07, but you just got pwned by militarymd.

 

[Heeed!]

Saying that you know what its like to be a doctor because you work for one is like saying "I didn't go to medical school, finished a grueling residency and fellowship, but I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I know what it's like to be a doctor"

This was very funny. Needed that one!

 

[R-Me-Doc]

I personally am not sure of my own motives for posting.

Well, judging from the frequency with which you and your nemesis, NavyDiveDoc, post here, I'd say your motivation seems to be just having way too much free time on your hands. This kind of serves to emphasize to everyone out there the point I have made on other threads: no matter how busy or hassled or screwed you may think you are in the military, there's no way that you will ever work as hard as you will in the civilian medical world.

Not that I'm trying to flame you or anything. I agree with much of what you post and in my military experience the negatives have outweighed the positives and I am cutting out as soon as they open the door for me. I, for one, though, would be delighted to keep on posting from the Other Side. Peace, bro.

 

[FliteSurgn]

A general surgeon at my school is out of the business and now teaches anatomy? I wonder why? I wonder why the majority of surgeons I run into are grumpy and divorced? Maybe its the specialty and not the military?

That's probably because they aren't in private practice.

 

[ddmo]

On the serious side though, as an attending, I would recommend to you guys to have a little more respect when you start clinicals.....I usually give pretty bad evals to uppity-know-it-all medical students like you guys.... Perhaps its the anonymity of the internet, but in real life, I would make your lives pretty miserable...if you were on rotations with me in the unit.

I haven't even started yet and I am getting sick of med student egos. Like how so many people over in the pre-allo thread act like people should bow to them now that they are going to XYZ medical school. Give me a break.

I give it about 1 month before I pimp slap someone. But, I can relish in the thought that one day I'll be the attending, and will be in a position to actually teach them a lesson, and a thing or two. In the meantime, give em hell militaryMD.

 

[DD214_DOC]

why is there a unidirectional flux of trained physicians to the civilian side? Not only does everyone leave, why are they having trouble giving away scholarships to recruit students right now?

There is another possible explanation for this. Many people probably just get the scholarships to get a free ride through med school and get out as soon as they can. Why would they stay in any longer unless they wanted to in the beginning?

Also, I'm not sure but maybe being in a state of war would give recruiters a bit of trouble finding takers for their programs.

I think it's pretty obvious you and your colleagues probably took the scholarship to stay out of debt, at least by the way they talk ("I was stupid enough to do it") and how horrible you make it all seem.

 

[MoosePilot]

Well, judging from the frequency with which you and your nemesis, NavyDiveDoc, post here, I'd say your motivation seems to be just having way too much free time on your hands. This kind of serves to emphasize to everyone out there the point I have made on other threads: no matter how busy or hassled or screwed you may think you are in the military, there's no way that you will ever work as hard as you will in the civilian medical world.

Not that I'm trying to flame you or anything. I agree with much of what you post and in my military experience the negatives have outweighed the positives and I am cutting out as soon as they open the door for me. I, for one, though, would be delighted to keep on posting from the Other Side. Peace, bro.

Everyone's got free time, it's just how you choose to use it. I've sat in front of morale computers all over the world (ok, mostly in the middle east and the 'stans). I've seen Docs come off call and post here (I admire the fact that they're still coherent). I try not to judge how busy someone is by their posting history.

What kind of military medicine do you practice? What kind of negatives have hit you the hardest?

 

[doctor07]

I concede, I am not a physician. I also admit that I don't know firsthand what it is like to practice medicine. I just hope two things. That when I am an attending, and I have been practicing for a number of years, that I am not bitter at the entire military profession because of a choice I made. Second, I hope that I won't spend my free time on the computer posting to a message board for students how much their choices suck. That's real encouraging. All I got out of certain people's posts in here is that they are ticked that they don't get their ego stroked enough, because, dammit, they are doctors, and they deserve as much. The caste system mentality doesn't make you a better physician. If it is so bad, QUIT!! Nobody says you have to stay in past your obligation. If you choose to do so for retirement reasons, that is your own choice. Everywhere in these posts, people are saying (including some of the complainers) that you shouldn't get into the military for financial reasons. Well, you shouldn't stay in either. I have no sympathy for a person who just moans and complains about what they are doing, and then signs up to KEEP DOING IT.

But what would I know. I guess I am just a med student. I don't practice medicine, therefore I couldn't know anything. Maybe next year after they teach us the colors and how to read, I can then understand what the wise physicians are saying to me.

 

[doctor07]

I haven't even started yet and I am getting sick of med student egos. Like how so many people over in the pre-allo thread act like people should bow to them now that they are going to XYZ medical school. Give me a break.

I give it about 1 month before I pimp slap someone. But, I can relish in the thought that one day I'll be the attending, and will be in a position to actually teach them a lesson, and a thing or two. In the meantime, give em hell militaryMD.

Good point, I don't think anyone should be bowed to because of what they are or where they go. However, certain people in this forum think they should be bowed to because they went to medical school and became doctors.

 

[MoosePilot]

I concede, I am not a physician. I also admit that I don't know firsthand what it is like to practice medicine. I just hope two things. That when I am an attending, and I have been practicing for a number of years, that I am not bitter at the entire military profession because of a choice I made. Second, I hope that I won't spend my free time on the computer posting to a message board for students how much their choices suck. That's real encouraging. All I got out of certain people's posts in here is that they are ticked that they don't get their ego stroked enough, because, dammit, they are doctors, and they deserve as much. The caste system mentality doesn't make you a better physician. If it is so bad, QUIT!! Nobody says you have to stay in past your obligation. If you choose to do so for retirement reasons, that is your own choice. Everywhere in these posts, people are saying (including some of the complainers) that you shouldn't get into the military for financial reasons. Well, you shouldn't stay in either. I have no sympathy for a person who just moans and complains about what they are doing, and then signs up to KEEP DOING IT.

But what would I know. I guess I am just a med student. I don't practice medicine, therefore I couldn't know anything. Maybe next year after they teach us the colors and how to read, I can then understand what the wise physicians are saying to me.

There's a couple of ways to interpret it. I think the way it's meant is some of the military doctors are trying to tell you how they see the choice in time for you to use that info to make a different choice.

If you've already made that choice, enjoy it. I've got my own military experience, which gives me a different basis for the same choice. Any way you slice it, don't let their advice sour you on something you want, just take it as one more data point. It would suck to blow them off today and come to agree with them in 7 years when it's too late.

I'm looking forward to a mil med career if I can get there from here, but I understand a lot of the military's pitfalls and choose to accept them. Just be sure you go in with your eyes open and then it's cool.

 

[militarymd]

I concede, I am not a physician. I also admit that I don't know firsthand what it is like to practice medicine. I just hope two things. That when I am an attending, and I have been practicing for a number of years, that I am not bitter at the entire military profession because of a choice I made. Second, I hope that I won't spend my free time on the computer posting to a message board for students how much their choices suck. That's real encouraging. All I got out of certain people's posts in here is that they are ticked that they don't get their ego stroked enough, because, dammit, they are doctors, and they deserve as much. The caste system mentality doesn't make you a better physician. If it is so bad, QUIT!!

Man, are you dense, or do you just spout off without reading about the issues? Both of which are bad qualities for physicians.

I am spending time here so that students will know what they are getting into(posted many times)...so that future military physicians don't have to deal with people who are bitter and don't want to share in the work (deployments/bad duty stations).

I've had it, and I did quit....for a dream job...high pay and lots of people kissing my ass....if you don't want that....that's fine, but everyone I know enjoys getting high pays and having their asses kissed. If you want to slave for low pay and no respect, that's fine...there are many inner city areas that I can name for you. They need good physicians.

And finally, the issues regarding the perks is used as an example of how rank in the military distorts the normal hierachy of a health care team, and how this leads to poor health care delivery. When you become a physician, you'll understand the responsbilities of a physician and why you need to be at the head of the team rather than just a member.

 

[chillin]

MilMD's post just prove the type of person he is. "I've given up so much in my life that everyone else should serve me, my residents should slave away for me, everyone including the military should kiss my feet." The bottom line is you have to earn someone's respect whether that's a patient, resident, or nurse because you're no better than anyone else. Nothing can be right for a bitter person. It's all about attitude. One other thing. It's a free country. Make your own decisions, but don't go crying about how you should be respected more when it's your decision that brought you where you are in the first place. Suck it up.

 

[militarymd]

MilMD's post just prove the type of person he is. "I've given up so much in my life that everyone else should serve me, my residents should slave away for me, everyone including the military should kiss my feet." The bottom line is you have to earn someone's respect whether that's a patient, resident, or nurse because you're no better than anyone else. Nothing can be right for a bitter person. It's all about attitude. One other thing. It's a free country. Make your own decisions, but don't go crying about how you should be respected more when it's your decision that brought you where you are in the first place. Suck it up.

I guess you're dense too.

You are confusing interpersonal relationships between co-workers, and the artificial relationships that military rank forces into the normal medical team.

The more you guys posts these personal attacks against me, the more I worry about the future of military medicine....filling up with people who don't get the issues I'm trying to explain.

 

[DD214_DOC]

So how do you propose the problems be fixed? Limit rank advancement for medical staff that are not physicians? Start attending physicians out at a higher rank, so that they are "almost" always higher rank than those "under" them? Medical Corps have no rank?

A nurse who outranks you is still a nurse. What's the big deal? Are nurses actually thinking they have more control and authority in the context of patient care than the attending physician because of a higher rank? Does it not occur to you that they have a higher rank because they in fact are more experienced than you are in your respective branch of service?

Would you care to elaborate on the problems in patient care created by the military rank structure? Or is this all really about a lowly nurse outranking the mighty doctor, destroying his chances of ego masturbation?

 

[chillin]

MilMD...I don't know...when someone posts everyone should kiss his ass, I really lose any respect for that person. Further, I think you've lost all credibility in my mind irregardless of any post that says "your so informative." Honestly, I can't believe you're an attending. Someone with 15 years of experience, but still cries like a baby how people don't kiss his ass enough. What the fu!@? You act like a little kid.

 

[militarymd]

MilMD...I don't know...when someone posts everyone should kiss his ass, I really lose any respect for that person. Further, I think you've lost all credibility in my mind irregardless of any post that says "your so informative." Honestly, I can't believe you're an attending. Someone with 15 years of experience, but still cries like a baby how people don't kiss his ass enough. What the fu!@? You act like a little kid.

Once again, you're not reading the posts. Very scary for someone trying to become a physician. "Attention to detail"...that's what I tell medical students like you..

I didn't say people should kiss my ass. I said, the hospital where I'm starting in the very near future is kissing my ass already, and that it is very nice. What's wrong with stating the facts. Like I said, if you like being treated poorly, there are many places for you to go.

Your personal attacks against me are sidetracking the issues I'm trying to point out about military medicine.

Are you a recruiter disguised as a student trying to keep the truths about military medicine from being disseminated?

 

[militarymd]

So how do you propose the problems be fixed? Limit rank advancement for medical staff that are not physicians? Start attending physicians out at a higher rank, so that they are "almost" always higher rank than those "under" them? Medical Corps have no rank?

A nurse who outranks you is still a nurse. What's the big deal? Are nurses actually thinking they have more control and authority in the context of patient care than the attending physician because of a higher rank? Does it not occur to you that they have a higher rank because they in fact are more experienced than you are in your respective branch of service?

Would you care to elaborate on the problems in patient care created by the military rank structure? Or is this all really about a lowly nurse outranking the mighty doctor, destroying his chances of ego masturbation?

I'm not sure how the problem can be fixed. Removing rank from the support staff in the military has been bantered around, but that is very unlikely because of obvious reasons.

One thing for sure is that people who are coming in needs to be aware of the how the system works.

And yes, non-physicians can sometimes change how you do your work. I've been ordered to provide medical care in a way that I think is wrong because of a non-physician who outranked me.

Look what happened to Dr. Manalaysay because of senior nurses (CRNAs).

 

[FliteSurgn]

The problem seems to be that some of these physicians-in-training are idealistic and don't want to hear the truth. They don't want anyone to rain on their rose-colored glasses despite the fact that you have much more real world experience in both medicine and the military.

 

[bobbyseal]

I do have to say that I appreciate MilMD's points in all of his/her posts. I think he is presenting to this forum the point of view of someone who's been at it for awhile. I think that it is a welcome change to have an attending physician offer up advice as compared to all of us students or residents telling eachother what military medicine is like when we have no first hand experience providing care to patients after residency. So far, s/he is the only person on this forum that I know of who is an attending military physician who posts in this section of SDN.

I think it is nice to hear this opinion, and I have to say that his point of view has certainly affected the way I think about my future career. Although I do enjoy the benefits that the Navy has provided me so far, I plan on getting out as soon as I can.

 

[chillin]

Think about it...His posts are as clear as day. There's going to be bull**** bureaucracy in the military. Your not going to be paid as much. Your going to be sent away to serve your country. I don't know what's so informative about his posts other than the military sucks. I've never heard him offer any positive advice about doing something in the military, a specialty, a good place to go, a unique service. All I've heard him do is wine like a baby. I've honestly never heard a surgeon wine so much in my life. This is an old man, and all he can think of is complaints, NO ADVICE!!!! And then remarks about how everyone should kiss his ass, and then he posts some bullshi!@ about how that's not what he meant. Read his posts again!!! The guy's a little kid. If my dad acted like that I'd slap him.

 

[NateatUC]

And yes, non-physicians can sometimes change how you do your work. I've been ordered to provide medical care in a way that I think is wrong because of a non-physician who outranked me.

I've been reading this thread with much interest, and appreciate all the different points of view.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a non-physician (even someone with higher rank) gives a physician an order on how to care for a patient, is it even a valid order? It seems not to me. And as officers, isn't it our job to recognize invalid orders and respond appropriately? Just as docs aren't allowed to give orders in combat units (and why would we want to?), shouldn't non-docs not be allowed to give doc-type orders in the medical setting?

Now don't get me wrong, if someone has a suggestion regarding patient care, we should at least listen, and if we're given a valid order to do or not do something unrelated to patient care, we should certainly follow it.

 

[militarymd]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a non-physician (even someone with higher rank) gives a physician an order on how to care for a patient, is it even a valid order? It seems not to me. And as officers, isn't it our job to recognize invalid orders and respond appropriately? Just as docs aren't allowed to give orders in combat units (and why would we want to?), shouldn't non-docs not be allowed to give doc-type orders in the medical setting?

What you state is technically how it is supposed to work. However, in real life, senior officers can bring a lot of pressure to bear to encourage you to do something that you think is wrong.

They have contacts....they know your detailer who can cut orders to some place you didn't expect to go, they are neighbors with other senior officers, they may have served with who decides on who goes on the next deployment, etc.

You're right, technically you can fight it and win, but in real life, it is easier to just yield to what is wrong. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

"Power corrupts".....

 

[chillin]

Let me just say one more thing. Why would a military surgeon want a poll to see how many people changed there minds about the military??? What kind of attending gives a rip about this? What's MilMd's intentions? This is an attending physician in the military and he's making posts on a medical school forum to see how many people are leaving??? I don't get it. Please someone clue me in. And this is a person who's giving informative advice??? To me that's pretty freakin' strange. To me, this is a pissed off baby who's looking to hurt the military in someway.

 

[NateatUC]

Let me just say one more thing. Why would a military surgeon want a poll to see how many people changed there minds about the military??? What kind of attending gives a rip about this? What's MilMd's intentions? This is an attending physician in the military and he's making posts on a medical school forum to see how many people are leaving??? I don't get it. Please someone clue me in. And this is a person who's giving informative advice??? To me that's pretty freakin' strange. To me, this is a pissed off baby who's looking to hurt the military in someway.

Chillin, you're obviously not (chillin that is). You've expressed your opinion of MilMD multiple times, and you're entitled to it. You now have nothing useful to say. Frankly, I'm getting tired of your personal attacks on someone expressing his opinion and informing us of his experiences. Yes, his experiences have been negative, and he's been soured by them, BUT they are his experiences. So unless you have something to say that actually contributes to this discussion, keep your mouth (keyboard?) shut.

 

[NateatUC]

What you state is technically how it is supposed to work. However, in real life, senior officers can bring a lot of pressure to bear to encourage you to do something that you think is wrong.

They have contacts....they know your detailer who can cut orders to some place you didn't expect to go, they are neighbors with other senior officers, they may have served with who decides on who goes on the next deployment, etc.

You're right, technically you can fight it and win, but in real life, it is easier to just yield to what is wrong. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

"Power corrupts".....

I'd just like to point out the last piece of this post (that a lot of this doesn't happen often), which was something I hadn't seen said yet, but I hoped was true. I won't argue with anyone that this stuff happens or that its darn frustrating when it does, but I'm pretty sure most if not all officers are at least reasonably educated and should know the limits of their knowledge. I would hope that when presented with valid evidence of why what they are ordering is wrong, they are mature enough to accept it. I only hope that those of us getting in are strong enough people to stick to our beliefs, not yield, and not tick people off in the process.

 

[MoosePilot]

Think about it...His posts are as clear as day. There's going to be bull**** bureaucracy in the military. Your not going to be paid as much. Your going to be sent away to serve your country. I don't know what's so informative about his posts other than the military sucks. I've never heard him offer any positive advice about doing something in the military, a specialty, a good place to go, a unique service. All I've heard him do is wine like a baby. I've honestly never heard a surgeon wine so much in my life. This is an old man, and all he can think of is complaints, NO ADVICE!!!! And then remarks about how everyone should kiss his ass, and then he posts some bullshi!@ about how that's not what he meant. Read his posts again!!! The guy's a little kid. If my dad acted like that I'd slap him.

Talking about slapping your dad doesn't really make you sound super reasonable.

Some of the people on here are considering HPSP or USUHS with no military background. So if a recruiter were to tell them, "Docs don't really get involved in all that military stuff. They go by medical qualifications, rank is really only for their pay. They don't tend to deploy - all the hospitals are in the states.", then that person doesn't neccessarily have a source to refute any of that. MilMD is personally trying to be that source. He doesn't twist your arm not to join the military, he just talks about what he's seen. If you don't like it, skip the thread.

If you read him and decide he's just talking like this to screw the military's recruiting up, then don't read his posts. I doubt that interpretation. I've often wished I could tell the eager young ROTC cadets that being a pilot isn't what they think. I've wanted to tell them it's not top gun where you go from a backyard barbecue to a quick little war then get to pick up your girlfriend in the bar in the next scene. I was deployed 200 days last year. My recent Wing Commander said that's no longer high ops tempo, that's *the* ops tempo. Not everyone on here knows this stuff, though.

Chill. People are mature enough to evaluate what he's saying and make their own decisions. What difference does it really make to you?

 

[chillin]

Just answer my question. Why on earth would an attending physician care/take the time to post a poll to see how many people are changing their minds in regard to the military? Does this not convey some other intention? Is this not going beyond simple advice about military life and what to expect to help you make an informed decision?

 

[MoosePilot]

Just answer my question. Why on earth would an attending physician care/take the time to post a poll to see how many people are changing their minds in regard to the military? Does this not convey some other intention? Is this not going beyond simple advice about military life and what to expect to help you make an informed decision?

Maybe he's curious if he's wasting his time.

What if the answer was because he absolutely can't stand the military and his whole goal is to try to make the HPSP scholarship people miss their goal? Or what if he's a father who's kids are applying for HPSP scholarships and he wants to minimize the competition? So what?

Use his advice as a data point. If you think he's biased, take that into account. As for me, like I said, I think I know where he's coming from. I'd love to tell incoming ROTC cadets with pilot slots to check the TDY numbers before they come in. Not to make them change their mind, but so they know and can make an informed decision. I'm betting, based on what he's said, that his motivation is similar.

 

[FliteSurgn]

Let me just say one more thing. Why would a military surgeon want a poll to see how many people changed there minds about the military??? What kind of attending gives a rip about this? What's MilMd's intentions? This is an attending physician in the military and he's making posts on a medical school forum to see how many people are leaving??? I don't get it. Please someone clue me in. And this is a person who's giving informative advice??? To me that's pretty freakin' strange. To me, this is a pissed off baby who's looking to hurt the military in someway.

If the only people that posted on these forums were pre-med or medical students, then what kind of real information could they be disseminating? I think that instead of complaining about his content, you should be thankful that he takes the time to give his opinion on the status of military medicine/surgery. Use his input as you desire, but you shouldn't discount it.

If you read more of his posts, you will see that he does have some positive things to say. In the end, he has seen the negatives outweigh the positives. I second most of his observations. I was an attending in the military before returning to residency and I will be returning to active duty next month as a surgeon. I have some of the same concerns about military medicine as militarymd.

 

[Heeed!]

Just answer my question. Why on earth would an attending physician care/take the time to post a poll to see how many people are changing their minds in regard to the military? Does this not convey some other intention? Is this not going beyond simple advice about military life and what to expect to help you make an informed decision?

If you don't want both sides of things then just keep talking to your recruiter. They have a really good idea of what the "real" military is like. Your behaving like a *****.

 

[Mirror Form]

MilMD...I don't know...when someone posts everyone should kiss his ass, I really lose any respect for that person. Further, I think you've lost all credibility in my mind irregardless of any post that says "your so informative." Honestly, I can't believe you're an attending. Someone with 15 years of experience, but still cries like a baby how people don't kiss his ass enough. What the fu!@? You act like a little kid.

I've read a heck of a lot of militaryMD's posts over the past year and I've never once gotten the impression from him that "everyone should kiss his ass." But most doctors are usually treated with a lot of respect. There is nothing wrong with expecting your team and employers to respect you if you're the attending. I haven't heard any attendings (or even experienced residents) ever attack him the same way that many pre-meds and medical students do.

As someone who's just starting my 4th year of medical school, I've spent the past year watching the attendings at my institution have their asses kissed 24/7. If you took any surgeon from my hospital and put them in a position where the nurses out-ranked them and called the shots, I guarantee they'd be just as bitter as militarymd, if not more so. MilitaryMD doesn't seem like he's the exception to me. Rather that he's just a typical doctor, as most of us will be after completing all the grueling training.

 

[mitchconnie]

Hard to say exactly what motivates milMD, but I will say that I know innumerable attendings who talk about doing the same thing--disuading people from signing up for HPSP. Can't tell you how many times I've heard people talk about setting up an "anti-HPSP" website. Most view the recruiting misinformation as such a gross injustice that it makes them livid. Some are just mad about how they got a rotten assignment, nurse for a boss, or whatever. Some truly want to make the system better--one reason it doesn't get better is the constant stream of young, uninitiated talent that comes in to replace the folks who get disgusted with the system and bail out. If students were better informed before signing, many would never sign, and those that do would go in with their eyes wide open and start changing things. As it is, an HPSP'er spends a year or two figuring out whats really going on in a very strange system, then a year or two getting bitter, then bails out. Nothing changes.

As someone who has been an attending for a couple years, I will say that almost all MilMD's observations are spot on. Not everyone has gotten the shaft so often as far as assignments, but I'm not at all surprised he's had such a hard time. Someone as outspoken as he is about changing/improving the system will not be considered a "team-player." He is bound to get the short end of the stick when it's time to hand out the perks. Administrators like yes-men or people who will just shut-up, do their time, and get out.

Some people have a great experience with the military. But someone who does HPSP, deferred civilian residency/fellowship, then comes onto active duty expecting to have a busy, rewarding, specialty-oriented practice is very likely going to have an outlook like MilMD. Unfortunately, most aren't out there telling the people who matter--the next generation of military physicians.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Is there not a lot of similar parallels in civilian medicine? Don't the suits who work for HMOs often dictate what a physician can and cannot do for a patient, depending on whether or not the insurance will cover a certain procedure or test?

I don't really know, but is civilian medicine a flawless gem? I'm sure it has its problems as well.

 

[met19]

I never served yet, but I decided to do the HPSP and look foward to practicing medicine in the Navy. People ask me why you did it, and its a simple reason. A majority of my family till my generation has done some form of service and its something I wanted to do and this was a great opportunity for me. The military is not for everyone, but some might like it and some might not.

 

[SJBX]

militarymd and the other military docs on this forum - There are obviously a lot of people who do the HPSP/FAP for the money. From the little that I gather, a very large number of them become disillusioned with military medicine. But what about those who truely want to serve in the armed forces? For example, someone who would join the military even if he wasn't going to be a doctor. I'm curious because it seems to me that even if you went in because you really wanted to serve, if you are coming across the numerous difficulites in practicing military medicine, you would surely become frustrated and want out asap.