Knowing what we know now, should the AOA and COCA dissolve the merger and go back to their own system of accreditation?

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Angus Avagadro

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Everyone has had a day to ruminate over the recent news of the ACGME going to P/F on Step 1. One would have to ask if the merger has been a net positive or negative for DO's? I didn't think it would be a positive from the beginning. Moving to P/F Step 1, no DO applicant can say they were discriminated against because they had a high Step 1 score and MD applicants with lower scores were accepted in front of them. There is little information on how things will change for the match in 2022 and how to best play the Match Game with a P/F Step 1 score. Step 2 scores will be revealed very close to when auditions and applications come out. It will be a challenge to pick residencies where you might be competitive with finding out your Step 2 scores so close to auditions and interview season. I think everyone would agree that going P/F with Step 1 removes a mechanism where DO students can distinguish themselves amongst their MD student colleagues and allow competitive residency spots to notice them.
Having said that, I predict 2020 will match more DO's than ever. Some programs got cancelled due to poor quality and some have been upgraded. More have opened with provisional status and will be approved. Opting out of the merger is pretty radical out of the box thinking. I just see things getting harder and harder for our students and not so much for the MD students. It would re open some competitive spots like Derm, Ortho, and Neurosurg which were taken over and are now restricting DO applicants. It would take more of the anxiety out of matching. With the new schools coming on line, there will be no shortage of bodies to fill residency slots. Yet, can the AOA and COCA provide enough residency slots? Or, are we just going to trade Step 1 mania for Step 2 mania and things remain pretty much the same? I think it unlikely to happen, but what are your thoughts? Solutions? Anybody?

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Wasn't the reason AOA merged with ACGME because ACGME said "merge or no fellowships"?
 
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Everyone has had a day to ruminate over the recent news of the ACGME going to P/F on Step 1. One would have to ask if the merger has been a net positive or negative for DO's? I didn't think it would be a positive from the beginning. Moving to P/F Step 1, no DO applicant can say they were discriminated against because they had a high Step 1 score and MD applicants with lower scores were accepted in front of them. There is little information on how things will change for the match in 2022 and how to best play the Match Game with a P/F Step 1 score. Step 2 scores will be revealed very close to when auditions and applications come out. It will be a challenge to pick residencies where you might be competitive with finding out your Step 2 scores so close to auditions and interview season. I think everyone would agree that going P/F with Step 1 removes a mechanism where DO students can distinguish themselves amongst their MD student colleagues and allow competitive residency spots to notice them.
Having said that, I predict 2020 will match more DO's than ever. Some programs got cancelled due to poor quality and some have been upgraded. More have opened with provisional status and will be approved. Opting out of the merger is pretty radical out of the box thinking. I just see things getting harder and harder for our students and not so much for the MD students. It would re open some competitive spots like Derm, Ortho, and Neurosurg which were taken over and are now restricting DO applicants. It would take more of the anxiety out of matching. With the new schools coming on line, there will be no shortage of bodies to fill residency slots. Yet, can the AOA and COCA provide enough residency slots? Or, are we just going to trade Step 1 mania for Step 2 mania and things remain pretty much the same? I think it unlikely to happen, but what are your thoughts? Solutions? Anybody?

I believe you are right on everything. One effect that I can see happening will be students from DO or lower tier MD schools will most likely play more conservatively because Step 2 is so late relative to step 1. Either way, it helps the MD students at top programs because they are unlikely to do poorly on Step 2 and their competitors from less elite schools will be more cautious in their planning with the downside of making previously "less" competitive specialties more competitive while doing the opposite for the more competitive specialties. (I have little doubts that the people who proposed this change are well-connected to faculty at top tier MD schools or mid-level worried about their graduates). These kind of infighting does little good for physicians especially as the field is drastically changing for both MDs and DOs except surgeons.

I don't know enough to suggest if the merger will be reversed so soon, but the amount of political power required makes it probably not realistic. Not an expert, but It would probably take many years of bad match results for DO graduates for AOA to even realistically consider it. The only upside might be that now schools don't have to chase high step 1 scores, I can see a world where the first two years might be "easier" if they are more focused on attrition and student wellness now Step 1 is P/F. (I do not know if DO schools might change because COMLEX Level 1 is not P/F.)
 
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Everyone has had a day to ruminate over the recent news of the ACGME going to P/F on Step 1. One would have to ask if the merger has been a net positive or negative for DO's? I didn't think it would be a positive from the beginning. Moving to P/F Step 1, no DO applicant can say they were discriminated against because they had a high Step 1 score and MD applicants with lower scores were accepted in front of them. There is little information on how things will change for the match in 2022 and how to best play the Match Game with a P/F Step 1 score. Step 2 scores will be revealed very close to when auditions and applications come out. It will be a challenge to pick residencies where you might be competitive with finding out your Step 2 scores so close to auditions and interview season. I think everyone would agree that going P/F with Step 1 removes a mechanism where DO students can distinguish themselves amongst their MD student colleagues and allow competitive residency spots to notice them.
Having said that, I predict 2020 will match more DO's than ever. Some programs got cancelled due to poor quality and some have been upgraded. More have opened with provisional status and will be approved. Opting out of the merger is pretty radical out of the box thinking. I just see things getting harder and harder for our students and not so much for the MD students. It would re open some competitive spots like Derm, Ortho, and Neurosurg which were taken over and are now restricting DO applicants. It would take more of the anxiety out of matching. With the new schools coming on line, there will be no shortage of bodies to fill residency slots. Yet, can the AOA and COCA provide enough residency slots? Or, are we just going to trade Step 1 mania for Step 2 mania and things remain pretty much the same? I think it unlikely to happen, but what are your thoughts? Solutions? Anybody?


Random thought:
Merge the NBME and NBOME. Get a guaranteed DO minority as part of negotiations (as was done in the AOA/ACGME merger and most state medical boards). Use ole’ fashion politicking to keep changes to board exams fair for students across the spectrum - I’m sure that a lot of MD students (and their representatives) are as unhappy with this change as we are.

Caveat:
I know nothing at all about the current politics or organizational structure of the NBME or NBOME
 
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Random thought:
Merge the NBME and NBOME. Get a guaranteed DO minority as part of negotiations (as was done in the AOA/ACGME merger and most state medical boards). Use ole’ fashion politicking to keep changes to board exams fair for students across the spectrum - I’m sure that a lot of MD students (and their representatives) are as unhappy with this change as we are.

Caveat:
I know nothing at all about the current politics or organizational structure of the NBME or NBOME
Politics got us into our current situation. The AOA did the politically expedient action and agreed to the merger with little power or control in the decision process. I think a political solution is the only way to keep us from continually being placed at a disadvantage. I think the question to ask at this point with regard to DO students is " Hows it working out for us so far?" This should be asked to our AOA leadership at every opportunity.
 
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Politics got us into our current situation. The AOA did the politically expedient action and agreed to the merger with little power or control in the decision process. I think a political solution is the only way to keep us from continually being placed at a disadvantage. I think the question to ask at this point with regard to DO students is " Hows it working out for us so far?" This should be asked to our AOA leadership at every opportunity.

Probably my last message for a while, it shows the need for schools to grow residency spots. The number of DO and MD schools are projected to increase; they are squeezing the less well-connected IMG today (DOs being collateral damage), but it wouldn't surprise me if more adverse changes will be coming in the pipeline for DOs if total residency spots do not increase. I guess more lobbying Congress is probably needed by leadership?
 
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Will answer my learned colleague's comments later, but can someone remind me of how the old Boards prep saw goes? isn't it something like

Step I two months
Step II Two weeks
Step III #2 pencil

???
 
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Politics got us into our current situation. The AOA did the politically expedient action and agreed to the merger with little power or control in the decision process. I think a political solution is the only way to keep us from continually being placed at a disadvantage. I think the question to ask at this point with regard to DO students is " Hows it working out for us so far?" This should be asked to our AOA leadership at every opportunity.

I can’t say I agree with the bolded. IIRC: DOs are ~10% of physicians and ~25% of US medical students, yet managed to grab 33%(?) of the voting power in the new ACGME. In the long term, I see that as a massive win.

Will answer my learned colleague's comments later, but can someone remind me of how the old Boards prep saw goes? isn't it something like

Step I two months
Step II Two weeks
Step III #2 pencil

???

I’m not sure if there’s a joke in here or if you’re actually asking. If the latter - yes. “Two months for Step 1, two weeks for Step 2 and you take Step 3 with a #2 pencil.”
 
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It started when the ACGME required fellows going into ACGME fellowship to be graduates of ACGME residency (I believe, more specifically, you have to have completed an ACGME internship to be eligible for fellowship). Up until then, fellowship programs could accept someone who didn't graduate from an ACGME residency … they just won't be eligible for the ABMS boards. The rationale was uniformity (and unification) from residency to fellowship, and block foreign medical physicians from skipping residency and going straight to fellowship.

A DO doing an AOA residency, could do an ACGME fellowship, and petition the AOA to accept the fellowship as AOA-equivalent, and take the DO boards.

The results of the ACGME decision was that DOs who did an AOA residency couldn't do ACGME fellowships. The decision had nothing to do with DOs. In fact, it wasn't even on their radar.

The decision rocked the AOA since they were completely unaware and was caught by surprise. The AOA started negotiating and initially things looked bleak. The ACGME and AOA couldn't come to an acceptable agreement. Finally, after a lot of back and forth, they came to the agreement (having the AOA programs become ACGME accredited, and giving the AOA a seat at the governing boards/table)

But I think it all started with fellowships and restricting it to ACGME residency graduates only.

If you search through SDN's forum archives, you can find the conversations as this was unfolding.
 
I can’t say I agree with the bolded. IIRC: DOs are ~10% of physicians and ~25% of US medical students, yet managed to grab 33%(?) of the voting power in the new ACGME. In the long term, I see that as a massive win.



I’m not sure if there’s a joke in here or if you’re actually asking. If the latter - yes. “Two months for Step 1, two weeks for Step 2 and you take Step 3 with a #2 pencil.”
33% of the vote is no voting power. I refer you to the recent impeachment vote in the senate
 
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It started when the ACGME required fellows going into ACGME fellowship to be graduates of ACGME residency (I believe, more specifically, you have to have completed an ACGME internship to be eligible for fellowship). Up until then, fellowship programs could accept someone who didn't graduate from an ACGME residency … they just won't be eligible for the ABMS boards. The rationale was uniformity (and unification) from residency to fellowship, and block foreign medical physicians from skipping residency and going straight to fellowship.

A DO doing an AOA residency, could do an ACGME fellowship, and petition the AOA to accept the fellowship as AOA-equivalent, and take the DO boards.

The results of the ACGME decision was that DOs who did an AOA residency couldn't do ACGME fellowships. The decision had nothing to do with DOs. In fact, it wasn't even on their radar.

The decision rocked the AOA since they were completely unaware and was caught by surprise. The AOA started negotiating and initially things looked bleak. The ACGME and AOA couldn't come to an acceptable agreement. Finally, after a lot of back and forth, they came to the agreement (having the AOA programs become ACGME accredited, and giving the AOA a seat at the governing boards/table)

But I think it all started with fellowships and restricting it to ACGME residency graduates only.

If you search through SDN's forum archives, you can find the conversations as this was unfolding.
I dont disagree with anything you said as that was what was reported. I stand by my personal communication with one of my Dean's. They would have no ulterior motive that I can imagine.
 
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I can’t say I agree with the bolded. IIRC: DOs are ~10% of physicians and ~25% of US medical students, yet managed to grab 33%(?) of the voting power in the new ACGME. In the long term, I see that as a massive win.



I’m not sure if there’s a joke in here or if you’re actually asking. If the latter - yes. “Two months for Step 1, two weeks for Step 2 and you take Step 3 with a #2 pencil.”
Many thanks, that's what I was looking for.

Given the perceived level of (lack of) difficulty for Step II, then I submit that this hue and cry about "Step II mania" is overblown. My understanding of Step II is that it is much more an assessment of clinical thinking and knowledge than Step I, and so M3s/OMSIIIs are all on a more even playing field. Yes, those students who have poor rotation sites will be the ones who suffer, but we see that already with the weakest DO schools.

That said, I can't foresee massive amounts of pre-studying for Step Ii when people haven't set foot in the clinic. To my eye, it's like a pre-med trying to study for Step I.

Will this force schools to go to a more 1.5+ 2.5 curriculum? Haven't a clue. That would be more than five-ten years in the future.

The business of S2 scores occurring too late for people to know where to apply is a conundrum.
 
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Many thanks, that's what I was looking for.

Given the perceived level of (lack of) difficulty for Step II, then I submit that this hue and cry about "Step II mania" is overblown. My understanding of Step II is that it is much more an assessment of clinical thinking and knowledge than Step I, and so M3s/OMSIIIs are all on a more even playing field. Yes, those students who have poor rotation sites will be the ones who suffer, but we see that already with the weakest DO schools.

That said, I can't foresee massive amounts of pre-studying for Step Ii when people haven't set foot in the clinic. To my eye, it's like a pre-med trying to study for Step I.

Will this force schools to go to a more 1.5+ 2.5 curriculum? Haven't a clue. That would be more than five-ten years in the future.

The business of S2 scores occurring too late for people to know where to apply is a conundrum.
I dont disagree. I have heard PDs on SDN say they have matched DO students who never had an inpatient IM rotation with residents. They will be at a disadvantage IMO. I still think there will be angst with 3rd yrs on busy services worrying about staying late when they want to study, yet want to shine and get an Honors grade for the rotation. I'm not sure much has changed.
 
I believe so. My Dean told me that happened because 500 MD students didnt match after the scramble and med schools and alumni went ballistic because there were DOs who did match.

That had been happening for years. MD match rate and SOAP rate have not changed much since the inception of the SOAP, Now the first iterations of the SOAP was a mess from I recall, but I can't imagine it was as bad as the scramble. At the time they were discussing the Common requirements and the merger, the MD side of the expansion was just starting to ramp up.

US MD schools had been complaining for years about this, because they were expected to continue expanding seats to get that 30% increase from 2006-2016, and so they were pursuing multiple avenues to increase available GME spots and improve filling them. The SOAP, the NRMP "all-in" policy minimizing the "pre-match", lobbying for GME expansion, etc. were all ways to increase numbers and improve placement. The Common requirements were another way to do that, and the merger ended up being an even better deal.

I can’t say I agree with the bolded. IIRC: DOs are ~10% of physicians and ~25% of US medical students, yet managed to grab 33%(?) of the voting power in the new ACGME. In the long term, I see that as a massive win...

DOs were 10% of the physicians and at the time of the talks ~18% of US medical students (but projected to become closer to 25% in the coming years). They negotiated for 28% voting rights in the ACGME alongside organizations that represent US MD students, schools, and FMGs.

It was honestly the only decision they could make that was reasonable. DOs had 0 voting rights with the ACGME before it yet depended on the ACGME for placement of half of their graduates, and the AOA simply did not have enough spots to accommodate half of the graduates they were producing, let alone the many more created by the expansion. It wasn't sustainable and if the ACGME wanted they could have at any time put more barriers up for DOs, which is essentially what happened with the Common requirements and the path from AOA internship -> ACGME residency or AOA residency -> ACGME fellowship.

There have been a lot of other benefits to the merger that rarely get talked about, and I'm not going to extol them all now (I've done it many times in the past including when the merger first happened), but the biggest ones I see are the elimination of two matches, it improves most DO programs, gives DO training a little more legitimacy (and even OMM for that matter with the new NMM/OMM RRCs), and opens doors from the standpoint of international practice rights (ACGME training is a known entity to many international medical boards, and the fact that DOs could be trained elsewhere made boards more likely to restrict recognition/practice rights).

The decision rocked the AOA since they were completely unaware and was caught by surprise. The AOA started negotiating and initially things looked bleak. The ACGME and AOA couldn't come to an acceptable agreement. Finally, after a lot of back and forth, they came to the agreement (having the AOA programs become ACGME accredited, and giving the AOA a seat at the governing boards/table)

But I think it all started with fellowships and restricting it to ACGME residency graduates only.

If you search through SDN's forum archives, you can find the conversations as this was unfolding.

The Common requirements required all ACGME advanced training programs to only accept applicants who had completed prior training at ACGME programs. In other words it limited the paths for AOA internship -> ACGME residency and AOA residency -> ACGME fellowship. Given that the AOA simply didn't have a ton of fellowships and that at the time many states required AOA internships for licensure, this would have hurt a not small subset of DOs, limited DO specialists, and further de-legitimize AOA training.

From what I recall, the MOU came out after representatives from the AOA and ACGME had been talking for a while. The cluster of the rejection of the MOU at the AOA delegate meeting and the anti-merger/pro-merger battle that ensued was crazy to watch, especially as a student. Personally, I was glad they finally worked it out.

33% of the vote is no voting power. I refer you to the recent impeachment vote in the senate

While its not enough to make unilateral policy (which DOs shouldn't really be making anyway since the ACGME is for all of medicine not just DOs), the alternative was to have 0% voting rights despite relying on an entity that could at any time may half of the DO degrees useless by limiting training. They can also now present proposals and be on committees that shape future training.

Given the perceived level of (lack of) difficulty for Step II, then I submit that this hue and cry about "Step II mania" is overblown. My understanding of Step II is that it is much more an assessment of clinical thinking and knowledge than Step I, and so M3s/OMSIIIs are all on a more even playing field. Yes, those students who have poor rotation sites will be the ones who suffer, but we see that already with the weakest DO schools.

That said, I can't foresee massive amounts of pre-studying for Step Ii when people haven't set foot in the clinic. To my eye, it's like a pre-med trying to study for Step I.

Step 2 CK is not really "easy" from the standpoint of content. Its actually very similar to Step 1, but has more real world clinical applications. The main reason people prepared less for it was partly because it was less important from a residency standpoint and it mainly tested knowledge that was gained by "doing". I agree that it makes having good clinical rotations even more important, and to be honest, the schools whose students I met with the lowest Step/Level 2 pass rates were also the ones that complained the most about shadowing on rotations and poor clinical sites.

A lot of medical schools have significantly changed the curriculum to have preclinical last about 1.5 yrs and for Step 1 to be taken in mid 3rd yr after 1 full year of rotations. One school I'm familiar with does Step 1 in early Feb and Step 2 CK in like Mar/April. I think that's what we'll see happen. Students have actually seemed to do better on the Steps apparently.
 
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Many thanks, that's what I was looking for.

Given the perceived level of (lack of) difficulty for Step II, then I submit that this hue and cry about "Step II mania" is overblown. My understanding of Step II is that it is much more an assessment of clinical thinking and knowledge than Step I, and so M3s/OMSIIIs are all on a more even playing field. Yes, those students who have poor rotation sites will be the ones who suffer, but we see that already with the weakest DO schools.

That said, I can't foresee massive amounts of pre-studying for Step Ii when people haven't set foot in the clinic. To my eye, it's like a pre-med trying to study for Step I.

Will this force schools to go to a more 1.5+ 2.5 curriculum? Haven't a clue. That would be more than five-ten years in the future.

The business of S2 scores occurring too late for people to know where to apply is a conundrum.
Goro, this isn’t quite right but I can see why you would think it is. People study “two weeks” for step 2 bc studying for your shelves all year is also studying for step 2. Also, despite what some would have you believe, a lot of your step 1 knowledge really does come into play for step 2 prep. You currently don’t need to study for it as long because you’ve basically done most of uworld for it before you start studying for it. It’s not an easier exam, there’s just less emphasis on it right now. When you think about it, people are already spending a year studying for it and most end up scoring in the same percentile on it as step 1.

With the new change, third year is going to be insane. For starters, without pressure to “crush” step 1, the average student knowledge base coming into third year will probably be between 210-220, but there will be enormous pressure to break 260 on step 2 (the same percentile as 250 on step 1). As someone who performed well on step 1, I fully admit a score like that is a very tall order. I can’t imagine being able to do it at all had I bailed on all the basic pathophys/stats/immuno/gene mutations etc on step 1.

As it stands now, the majority of students only run uworld and OME through 3rd year and sprinkle in case files here and there. Only the most gunner-tastic people do much more. Now everyone will be running 3 qbanks, and smashing anki decks from BnB step 2 edition trying to push a weaker baseline knowledge up as much as possible. Third year rotations will literally be considered a “low-yield” experience and the most successful med students in the match will ironically be the ones who opted for a site with the most preceptor-based rotations so you can go home early and grind for step 2.

I honestly agree that something had to be done. It’s crazy that we start third year knowing more about Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium than the criteria that defines an AKI. But this wasn’t a good solution. In the current system, we’re blowing off PhDs trying to grind the rhodopsin cycle into our heads. In the new one they’ll be blowing off actual physicians trying to teach them how to be doctors.

TLDR; Step 1 mania was an out of control hurricane of crazy. Step 2 mania will probably be worse and even more detrimental to medical education.
 
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Wondering if NBOME follows suit and turns COMLEX level 1 into P/F. I know there had been talk before about that.
 
That had been happening for years. MD match rate and SOAP rate have not changed much since the inception of the SOAP, Now the first iterations of the SOAP was a mess from I recall, but I can't imagine it was as bad as the scramble. At the time they were discussing the Common requirements and the merger, the MD side of the expansion was just starting to ramp up.

US MD schools had been complaining for years about this, because they were expected to continue expanding seats to get that 30% increase from 2006-2016, and so they were pursuing multiple avenues to increase available GME spots and improve filling them. The SOAP, the NRMP "all-in" policy minimizing the "pre-match", lobbying for GME expansion, etc. were all ways to increase numbers and improve placement. The Common requirements were another way to do that, and the merger ended up being an even better deal.



DOs were 10% of the physicians and at the time of the talks ~18% of US medical students (but projected to become closer to 25% in the coming years). They negotiated for 28% voting rights in the ACGME alongside organizations that represent US MD students, schools, and FMGs.

It was honestly the only decision they could make that was reasonable. DOs had 0 voting rights with the ACGME before it yet depended on the ACGME for placement of half of their graduates, and the AOA simply did not have enough spots to accommodate half of the graduates they were producing, let alone the many more created by the expansion. It wasn't sustainable and if the ACGME wanted they could have at any time put more barriers up for DOs, which is essentially what happened with the Common requirements and the path from AOA internship -> ACGME residency or AOA residency -> ACGME fellowship.

There have been a lot of other benefits to the merger that rarely get talked about, and I'm not going to extol them all now (I've done it many times in the past including when the merger first happened), but the biggest ones I see are the elimination of two matches, it improves most DO programs, gives DO training a little more legitimacy (and even OMM for that matter with the new NMM/OMM RRCs), and opens doors from the standpoint of international practice rights (ACGME training is a known entity to many international medical boards, and the fact that DOs could be trained elsewhere made boards more likely to restrict recognition/practice rights).



The Common requirements required all ACGME advanced training programs to only accept applicants who had completed prior training at ACGME programs. In other words it limited the paths for AOA internship -> ACGME residency and AOA residency -> ACGME fellowship. Given that the AOA simply didn't have a ton of fellowships and that at the time many states required AOA internships for licensure, this would have hurt a not small subset of DOs, limited DO specialists, and further de-legitimize AOA training.

From what I recall, the MOU came out after representatives from the AOA and ACGME had been talking for a while. The cluster of the rejection of the MOU at the AOA delegate meeting and the anti-merger/pro-merger battle that ensued was crazy to watch, especially as a student. Personally, I was glad they finally worked it out.



While its not enough to make unilateral policy (which DOs shouldn't really be making anyway since the ACGME is for all of medicine not just DOs), the alternative was to have 0% voting rights despite relying on an entity that could at any time may half of the DO degrees useless by limiting training. They can also now present proposals and be on committees that shape future training.



Step 2 CK is not really "easy" from the standpoint of content. Its actually very similar to Step 1, but has more real world clinical applications. The main reason people prepared less for it was partly because it was less important from a residency standpoint and it mainly tested knowledge that was gained by "doing". I agree that it makes having good clinical rotations even more important, and to be honest, the schools whose students I met with the lowest Step/Level 2 pass rates were also the ones that complained the most about shadowing on rotations and poor clinical sites.

A lot of medical schools have significantly changed the curriculum to have preclinical last about 1.5 yrs and for Step 1 to be taken in mid 3rd yr after 1 full year of rotations. One school I'm familiar with does Step 1 in early Feb and Step 2 CK in like Mar/April. I think that's what we'll see happen. Students have actually seemed to do better on the Steps apparently.
Thank you for posting such a well reasoned and thoughtful response to my OP. It was meant to be provocative.
There have been positives from the merger, many that you have pointed out. You probably dont know that in the town where I grew up, there was a DO hospital and an MD hospital . Why would a small town have 2 small hospitals you might ask? Because the DOs were not allowed to be on staff at the MD hospital, and vice versa. After about 50 yrs, they were bought by a large hospital corp and merged with great rancor. Since then I have watched DOs advance and gain stature withing the ACGME system. I trained in a state where to get licensed I had to do a DO Pgy1. My specialty board accepted that as my Pgy1 at the time. DOs gaining training spots at university programs were rare, but were increasing. DOs were becoming academic faculty at their residency programs. Step mania began some years later as spots became more competetive and DO students continued to distinguish themselve on the Step. When I looked into becoming ACGME and DO boarded in my specialty, my DO board said I would have to have an examiner come to review my program, and I would have to pay ALL of his expensive to have my university program considered acceptable. My Chief, normally a bullet head, actually agreed. I declined the generous offer. Politics still rule the day, as always. From my personally biased perspective, I perceived the original refusal to accept DO pgy1 as ACGME pgy1 a political impediment to DO students. I now see the P/F of Step 1 as similar impediment. Sure we have a small voice in ACGME, certainly better than none, but I believe it is just for show. They will do what is best for the MD students in the end. To compete and match in this brave new world of P/F Step, DOs will continue to work much harder. How? Remains to be seen. I believe the plethora of new grads this year and again next will be at a greater disadvantage to distinguish themselves amongst their MD student colleagues. COCA, are you listening?
 
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Thank you for posting such a well reasoned and thoughtful response to my OP. It was meant to be provocative.
There have been positives from the merger, many that you have pointed out. You probably dont know that in the town where I grew up, there was a DO hospital and an MD hospital . Why would a small town have 2 small hospitals you might ask? Because the DOs were not allowed to be on staff at the MD hospital, and vice versa. After about 50 yrs, they were bought by a large hospital corp and merged with great rancor. Since then I have watched DOs advance and gain stature withing the ACGME system. I trained in a state where to get licensed I had to do a DO Pgy1. My specialty board accepted that as my Pgy1 at the time. DOs gaining training spots at university programs were rare, but were increasing. DOs were becoming academic faculty at their residency programs. Step mania began some years later as spots became more competetive and DO students continued to distinguish themselve on the Step. When I looked into becoming ACGME and DO boarded in my specialty, my DO board said I would have to have an examiner come to review my program, and I would have to pay ALL of his expensive to have my university program considered acceptable. My Chief, normally a bullet head, actually agreed. I declined the generous offer. Politics still rule the day, as always. From my personally biased perspective, I perceived the original refusal to accept DO pgy1 as ACGME pgy1 a political impediment to DO students. I now see the P/F of Step 1 as similar impediment. Sure we have a small voice in ACGME, certainly better than none, but I believe it is just for show. They will do what is best for the MD students in the end. To compete and match in this brave new world of P/F Step, DOs will continue to work much harder. How? Remains to be seen. I believe the plethora of new grads this year and again next will be at a greater disadvantage to distinguish themselves amongst their MD student colleagues. COCA, are you listening?

I agree that it'll be harder for DOs. This is honestly something that hurts DOs, IMGs, and MDs from no/low-tier schools (including the new ones). Honestly, I think this was a push from the top schools to maintain their superiority in the landscape of harder competition from others. Every time I heard from someone calling for making it P/F, it was someone from Harvard, someone from JHU, etc. I'm surprised that its happening this quickly, but not surprised that it's happening.

DOs will have to emphasize research, build stronger connections with programs, and push further with aways. I think the new crop, at least those from established schools, is likely up to the task, but a little help from their schools would be ideal.

I hope that DO school expansion slows, DO programs emphasize GME connections even more than before, and DO schools provide increasing opportunities for research for those students. I don't know how likely that is, but I think if those of us that have made it through get involved after training well and developing ACGME connections, it's possible to make an impact. I know this is almost taboo on these forums, but these moves may have actually motivated me to get involved in a DO school at clinical and mentorship level.
 
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Wondering if NBOME follows suit and turns COMLEX level 1 into P/F. I know there had been talk before about that.

Their website heavily hints that they are considering it. More news will be had as early as July 2020.

It wouldn't surprise me if they made all 3 Level's P/F.
 
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Wondering if NBOME follows suit and turns COMLEX level 1 into P/F. I know there had been talk before about that.
Knowing John Gimpel, I am not holding my breath.

Just saw your post, Grey. Color me surprised that they're even considering it!!!

Their website heavily hints that they are considering it. More news will be had as early as July 2020.
It wouldn't surprise me if they made all 3 Level's P/F.
 
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Single accreditation allowed me to apply to traditionally DO and MD simultaneously. I may have otherwise self selected out of the MD match. I also had no fear for my training as everything was ACGME. Next chair of ACGME is a DO btw
 
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I don't think necessarily it would be easy or feasible to revive AoA residency programs, the osteopathic profession as a whole has come to depend on ACGME residencies to place a significant number of their graduates and now given the merger it would be an expensive endeavour to return things to how they used to be and would likely meet resistance in the process.

The fact of the matter is that with the changes to GME, and the changes to come in the following years, the osteopathic profession, intentionally or not, is growing even more indiscernible from its allopathic counterparts. Much of the osteopathic identity as it stands today was reliant on differences between the allopathic and osteopathic physicians. Blurring the lines further may again raise the question why they remain separate. As the osteopathic profession gives up its autonomy, the lines get blurred and the AoA may find themselves strong armed into a DO-MD merger whether they like it or not. If they hope to survive, hopefully the voting authority in ACGME is strong enough, or that there were additional stipulations in the residency merger.
 
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I don't think necessarily it would be easy or feasible to revive AoA residency programs, the osteopathic profession as a whole has come to depend on ACGME residencies to place a significant number of their graduates and now given the merger it would be an expensive endeavour to return things to how they used to be and would likely meet resistance in the process.

The fact of the matter is that with the changes to GME, and the changes to come in the following years, the osteopathic profession, intentionally or not, is growing even more indiscernible from its allopathic counterparts. Much of the osteopathic identity as it stands today was reliant on differences between the allopathic and osteopathic physicians. Blurring the lines further may again raise the question why they remain separate. As the osteopathic profession gives up its autonomy, the lines get blurred and the AoA may find themselves strong armed into a DO-MD merger whether they like it or not. If they hope to survive, hopefully the voting authority in ACGME is strong enough, or that there were additional stipulations in the residency merger.
Thanks for responding. You make some fair points. My initial take on the merger was that DOs would go the way of Homeopathic physicians when they were absorbed into the ACGME. Now, a Homeopathic physician is a fringe practitioner. Some say DOs should declare victory and go home. ACGME has thrown a couple bones at DO grads, but I dont consider them a benevolent entity. Just look back at their actions towards DOs.
 
Just look back at their actions towards DOs.

Absolutely, I just read 'The DO's Osteopathic Medicine in America' by Norman Gevitz and agree with this sentiment, I remember even reading that the AMA strategy was to kill us with kindness. Even if slowly, arguments are mounting against the profession, and recent actions are contrary to what the AoA leadership had historically promoted to encourage osteopathy as an independent and comprehensive branch of medicine. I recommend that DO's or incoming DO's read the book realizing that being a DO is not inferior, and the profession's origins and evolution were a noble cause. I think that osteopathic physicians, medical students, and premedical students should be proud of the profession and how far it has come rather than be self-loathing.

Fortunately the landscape is changing such that DO's are starting to make a significant portion of the physician population, and only growing. In this way at least the profession likely won't disappear quietly or in a way that would prevent them from practicing medicine.
 
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Absolutely, I just read 'The DO's Osteopathic Medicine in America' by Norman Gevitz and agree with this sentiment, I remember even reading that the AMA strategy was to kill us with kindness. Even if slowly, arguments are mounting against the profession, and recent actions are contrary to what the AoA leadership had historically promoted to encourage osteopathy as an independent and comprehensive branch of medicine. I recommend that DO's or incoming DO's read the book realizing that being a DO is not inferior, and the profession's origins and evolution was a noble cause. I think that osteopathic physicians, medical students, and premedical students should be proud of the profession and how far it has come rather than be self-loathing.

Fortunately the landscape is changing such that DO's are starting to make a significant portion of the physician population, and only growing. In this way at least the profession likely won't disappear quietly or in a way that would prevent them from practicing medicine.

Thank you for reminding me to buy that book! I instantly put in my order on Amazon after reading your post.
 
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It is still almost 4 years until the M0s take Step 2. What are the chances that it goes P/F between now and then if/when they realize that it will just become step 1 mania all over again?
 
It is still almost 4 years until the M0s take Step 2. What are the chances that it goes P/F between now and then if/when they realize that it will just become step 1 mania all over again?

Probably need some data points before they make any conclusions. I don't think licensing exam decisions will be based on speculation, but who knows.
 
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It is still almost 4 years until the M0s take Step 2. What are the chances that it goes P/F between now and then if/when they realize that it will just become step 1 mania all over again?
I dont think Step 2 will go P/F anytime soon. If you read the posts in the Step 1 P/F thread, you'll see several responses indicating the need for some objective criteria available to PDs to decide who they can offer a limited number of interview slots to.
 
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I dont think Step 2 will go P/F anytime soon. If you read the posts in the Step 1 P/F thread, you'll see several responses indicating the need for some objective criteria available to PDs to decide who they can offer a limited number of interview slots to.
Agree 1000% with my learned colleague.

For Step 2 to go P/F, there will need to be a demonstrable reason, not mere hypotheticals.
 
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Agree 1000% with my learned colleague.

For Step 2 to go P/F, there will need to be a demonstrable reason, not mere hypotheticals.

Trust me, it won't take very long. Because DO's traditionally have to take Step 2 by the time apps are in I already see multiple people doing UWorld and Anki cards on their phones during rounds, now make Step 2 the only objective component to residency apps and this will multiply tenfold. There is also the fact that while Step 2 is "more clinical," the psychometrics for it are just as bad as Step 1. So the same reasons that Step 1 was made P/F already apply to Step 2 without any building of "step 2 mania", which I fully predict to be just as bad as Step 1 mania. Step 1 mania already built up the energy for it, and it will simply transfer over. It's not going to be a decades plus long process like the development of Step 1 mania.
 
Trust me, it won't take very long. Because DO's traditionally have to take Step 2 by the time apps are in I already see multiple people doing UWorld and Anki cards on their phones during rounds, now make Step 2 the only objective component to residency apps and this will multiply tenfold. There is also the fact that while Step 2 is "more clinical," the psychometrics for it are just as bad as Step 1. So the same reasons that Step 1 was made P/F already apply to Step 2 without any building of "step 2 mania", which I fully predict to be just as bad as Step 1 mania. Step 1 mania already built up the energy for it, and it will simply transfer over. It's not going to be a decades plus long process like the development of Step 1 mania.
Time will tell.
 
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