Job Search Thread

[Parts Unknown]

Hello everyone.

Given the general economic situation, the tanking (and partial recovery) of the stock market, and the specter of health reform, I was wondering if anyone would be willing to share their 2009-2010 job hunting experiences in a market presumed to be even tighter than usual.

I'll start:

Job 1 - Obtained interview through networking, subsequently offered position. General pathology practice with subspecialty emphasis. Partnership track.

Job 2 - Obtained interview through recruiter, interest mutually fizzled. General pathology practice with subspecialty emphasis. Partnership track.

From my online hunting, over time I sent five CVs to jobs posted online. One vanished with no response (job posting didn't mention my subspecialty, but I liked the location). Two responded saying the positions were filled. Two more gave me phone interviews, one became a face-to-face. So...

Job 3 - Obtained interview from online resource, subsequently offered position. General pathology practice with subspecialty emphasis. Partnership when oldest existing partner retires (I checked deeper and this doesn't appear to be a churn-and-burn outfit).

The benefits/perks have been pretty comparable thus far. Starting in the high 100's to low 200's, with steady raises until partnership.

I had originally thought I would accept Job 1, but there seems to be no pressure on me to do so (yet), and new opportunities are still popping up with some frequency. The hunt continues...

Good luck out there!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[gbwillner]

Our CAP representative told us at our last resident meeting that the last CAP survey of people looking for jobs showed that 90% of residents/fellows looking for jobs had an offer. I specifically asked who was included in the survey and they stated it was all residents/fellows looking for JOBS not including fellowships (I think within the past 3 months or so?). Not sure about any other methodology, but compared to what people have been saying on this forum, it seems completely inconsistent with job market perceptions. I didn't see the actual survey or analysis- it would be an interesting read.

 

[lipomas]

but compared to what people have been saying on this forum, it seems completely inconsistent with job market perceptions.

Surprise, real life and internet life often only overlap to a minor extent. Internet forums can be havens for the disaffected, the incompetents, and the self-loathing, as well as for the truly aggrieved, unlucky, or ****-upon. It can be quite hard to tell the difference. So while it is good to listen to opinions online, it is not good to always take them as gospel truth. One post can be an outlier, but two similar posts become a trend, and three similar posts become an ironclad fact that no one can argue.

Personally, I haven't talked to tons of graduating residents recently. The good ones that I know have received a good offer or multiple offers, and the bad ones have not (although some still have offers). I don't really know the caliber of offers though. From what people tell me jobs can be scarce depending on what specific area you are looking at, but the specific areas are variable year to year. Subspecialty fellowships can also be quite important. But since it seems like 50% of residents now are doing a dermpath or GI fellowship, that might not last.

The other problem, of course, is that good jobs can be hard to find too. And it can be hard to tell whether a job is a good one or not, as people will lie to you from both perspectives. From my unscientific personal anecdotal surveys, people have an increasing tendency to lie or stretch the truth the more they talk about money and prestige. So find yourself a self-loathing hippie driving a 1995 Honda as your group chairman. You may go far.

 

[green mantis]

What exactly do you mean when you say general pathology w/ subspecialty emphasis? Does that mean you'll sign out everything, but the group wants you to have some area of expertise (done a fellowship)?


----- Antony

 

[yaah]

That's generally what that means - you are the group's "expert" on something (or one of them), but you also have responsibilities for general stuff.

 

[path24]

The fellows I know say that their CVs are being ignored for the most part. Some have one interview setup and some have none. One has interviewed and has a job offer.

Good to hear someone is doing ok....job market still seems to be very poor though. I don't think this will ever change.

Don't know of any other specialities of medicine where your CV gets ignored. Pathetic.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Sooooo I've been corresponding with one of the groups that posted on pathologyoutlines, and the appointed recruiter of the group has been bemoaning the process of finding a good candidate. They got the usual bombardment of CVs, narrowed it down to a few, but most of their top picks got snapped up by other groups. Not what you would expect from such a seller's market.

I'm starting to see at two-tier job market, but with about three discernible subgroups in each tier. Hmmmm....

 

[Sulfinator]

I really appreciate this thread. It gives more of a 'real time' read on job hunting experiences.

 

[dwil75]

This is a great threat, the most useful I have seen concerning the pathology job market. Thanks to the OP.

 

[pathdoc21]

Parts Unknown - Can you tell us what part of the country you searching for jobs?

 

[2121115]

I'm starting to see at two-tier job market, but with about three discernible subgroups in each tier. Hmmmm....

I'd love to hear more of your comments on this. What subgroups do you see in each tier?

 

[Parts Unknown]

Parts Unknown - Can you tell us what part of the country you searching for jobs?

All parts known.

 

[yaah]

Sooooo I've been corresponding with one of the groups that posted on pathologyoutlines, and the appointed recruiter of the group has been bemoaning the process of finding a good candidate. They got the usual bombardment of CVs, narrowed it down to a few, but most of their top picks got snapped up by other groups. Not what you would expect from such a seller's market.

This is quite accurate. Surprise! Things are not quite so black and white as many would have you believe. The two group leaders I have talked with most recently about this say exactly this - they get a lot of poor applicants and have had to compete for the candidate they really want. What makes a good candidate, of course, varies from group to group depending on their needs and the makeup of the group.

This is also true to some extent in most other specialties, by the way. The better groups recruit the better candidates and don't recruit the lesser candidates.

It would be great if more people would post their job experiences, even if they don't want to get too specific. Real experiences are always more helpful than rhetoric or rumor.

 

[Parts Unknown]

I'd love to hear more of your comments on this. What subgroups do you see in each tier?

Upper Tier: Readily employable
- Rock Star/Diety
- Average Joe
- Strangely reluctant

Lower Tier: Not readily employable
- Talented but hamstrung
- Set your controls for self destruction
- Should have been smothered at birth

 

[2121115]

Upper Tier: Readily employable
- Rock Star/Diety
- Average Joe
- Strangely reluctant

Lower Tier: Not readily employable
- Talented but hamstrung
- Set your controls for self destruction
- Should have been smothered at birth

LOL! Nice. Although I have no idea what "talented but hamstrung" means.

 

[lipomas]

Lower tier:
-High level of arrogance
- Inability to work well with others
- Inability or unwillingness to work hard
- Poor communication skills
- Poor diagnostic skills
- Inability or unwillingness to do various things other than "their specialty."

The first point is perhaps the most overlooked. We actually see a lot of this on this forum. Arrogance to the point of neglecting other opinions. People don't often want to work with this type of individual as their colleague. You have an opinion? Great! I don't care what it is but here's my opinion!

Top tier:
-Good training pedigree, or one in which you have excelled beyond expectations of your training pedigree
- Varied skills and talents
- Good team player
- Good communication skills.
- Employable skills (sometimes this includes a fellowship in a high-demand area).

 

[TMZ2007]

Top tier:
-Good training pedigree, or one in which you have excelled beyond expectations of your training pedigree

How does a candidate demonstrate the bolded? Maybe a you could give a hypothetical...?

 

[yaah]

How does a candidate demonstrate the bolded? Maybe a you could give a hypothetical...?

Well, I am not sure if I am completely sure what he/she is referring to, but I think I get the point. I have met quite a few residents who trained at lesser programs (some on fellowship interviews, some at meetings) who apparently stood out quite remarkably from their residency classmates. These residents are often easy to spot, and faculty will talk about them, they have great references, things like that. I would think that you demonstrate it by just being good at what you do and working hard. People in supervisory roles tend to recognize residents who show a lot of aptitude for pathology.

 

[Pingu]

People in supervisory roles tend to recognize residents who show a lot of aptitude for pathology.

Some people also have an natural aptitude for pathology (I've always heard this referred to as having an 'eye') and this will also be recognized by staff and other residents. I've seen lower level residents with that kind of aptitude that you could just tell were going to be great diagnostically.

If you have a natural aptitude and a decent personality, you will probably go far.

 

[Parts Unknown]

LOL! Nice. Although I have no idea what "talented but hamstrung" means.

There are some people who are capable diagnosticians but have drawbacks that are not so easily controlled. Like being stuck with a J-1 Visa. Or having a less-than-perfect command of the English language. Or having the personality of wet cardboard. Or coming across in real life like raider does in this forum.

 

[2121115]

Lower tier:
-High level of arrogance
- Inability to work well with others
- Inability or unwillingness to work hard
- Poor communication skills
- Poor diagnostic skills
- Inability or unwillingness to do various things other than "their specialty."

The first point is perhaps the most overlooked. We actually see a lot of this on this forum. Arrogance to the point of neglecting other opinions. People don't often want to work with this type of individual as their colleague. You have an opinion? Great! I don't care what it is but here's my opinion!

Top tier:
-Good training pedigree, or one in which you have excelled beyond expectations of your training pedigree
- Varied skills and talents
- Good team player
- Good communication skills.
- Employable skills (sometimes this includes a fellowship in a high-demand area).

What constitutes "poor diagnostic skills"? When you have a recently minted trainee hired at your practice how do you determine this? Just wait until they make mistakes? By how many cases they need hand-holding on? Just curious.

 

[lipomas]

What constitutes "poor diagnostic skills"? When you have a recently minted trainee hired at your practice how do you determine this? Just wait until they make mistakes? By how many cases they need hand-holding on? Just curious.

Sometimes it's hard to tell until they start, unfortunately. You can get a bit from references and talking to the references. I think poor diagnostic skills does not necessarily equate with needing hand-holding early on. It equates often with overconfidence or lack of knowledge. The most dangerous pathologists are those who THINK that they know everything, and KNOW that they are right. It is important to be confident, of course, but this has its limits.

The important thing is to hire the right person, and try to get a handle on their skills before you actually hire them. This is why so many groups prefer to hire people with signout experience.

 

[path24]

Curious, I still know multiple unemployed fellows. Anyone else? Also continuing to hear about 30-50+ candidates for jobs on pathoutlines and cap. Even rural midwest are getting these numbers. Emails stating lots of candidates and quality candidates at that. This is very worrisome.

 

[KeratinPearls]

Curious, I still know multiple unemployed fellows. Anyone else? Also continuing to hear about 30-50+ candidates for jobs on pathoutlines and cap. Even rural midwest are getting these numbers. Emails stating lots of candidates and quality candidates at that. This is very worrisome.

One of the fellows at my program is looking for a job and she wants to stay in the area because of family. From what I've been hearing there are a handful of jobs and attendings at my program are telling her that something will "eventually come up." Pretty sad. Two fellows from last year...both went out of state. The market in my area is saturated.

 

[Freak]

... The market in my area is saturated.

Which area is that?

 

[2121115]

Curious, I still know multiple unemployed fellows. Anyone else? Also continuing to hear about 30-50+ candidates for jobs on pathoutlines and cap. Even rural midwest are getting these numbers. Emails stating lots of candidates and quality candidates at that. This is very worrisome.

What are these fellows doing as a back up plan? Do they have additional fellowships set up for the summer (5 months from now)?

All of the fellows in my department acquired positions months ago. As far as internet site job postings go, I bet emails just get ignored anyway. I bet if you don't call you are SOL.

 

[KeratinPearls]

Which area is that?

I'd rather not say. I think it's true that when there are multiple residency programs in an area, the job market is going to be tight. You may have to get up and move or you could wait it out and hope something pops up.

 

[2121115]

Pretty sad. Two fellows from last year...both went out of state.

There should only be one pathology program per state. Why is there more than that? I think there is less than 1 dermatology program per state (not sure). Why do we need more than 1 path program?

 

[KeratinPearls]

There should only be one pathology program per state. Why is there more than that? I think there is less than 1 dermatology program per state (not sure). Why do we need more than 1 path program?

Anyone here from Chicago? There's Rush, UChicago, Northwestern, Loyola, UIC, UChicago (Northshore). Holy cow. Anyone from these programs want to comment about obtaining a job in the Chicagoland (or neighboring suburbs)?

 

[pathalot]

What about areas like the Northwest? There is Seattle, Utah, Portland, not sure about Nevada. Nothing in Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, as far as I know, not to mention Alaska. True it is a relatively unpopulated region, but it is such a large area. Anybody know anything about jobs in this region?

 

[Parts Unknown]

What about areas like the Northwest? There is Seattle, Utah, Portland, not sure about Nevada. Nothing in Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, as far as I know, not to mention Alaska. True it is a relatively unpopulated region, but it is such a large area. Anybody know anything about jobs in this region?

There are three postings on pathoutlines for jobs in Washington. I have seen scattered individual postings over the past two years for jobs in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming.

If you are interested in this region, I would advise you to 1.) apply to those three jobs, and at least talk to those groups and see who they know, 2.) talk to chairman/program director/fellowship director and try to make some personal contacts, and 3.) get out a map, identify some pathology groups, get on the phone, and call call call.

 

[green mantis]

What about areas like the Northwest? There is Seattle, Utah, Portland, not sure about Nevada. Nothing in Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, as far as I know, not to mention Alaska. True it is a relatively unpopulated region, but it is such a large area. Anybody know anything about jobs in this region?

I've looked for positions in Portland & Seattle since I wanted to stay on the West Coast. The situation in either of those 2 cities isn't any better than LA/OC or Bay Area. There may be positions in eastern Oregon or Washington. One of my co-fellows went to the Portland area, but I'm not sure I'd call it Portland because he's 1 hr away.


----- Antony

 

[path24]

The fellows I know looking for a job:
future-locums, maybe fellowship again (hard on the family)
jobs-attending/pd connections, internet
location-some limited to a region, some apply all over the country willing to take anything

How do fellows end their fellowship with no job? I would like program directors to answer that question.

 

[raider]

Do you think the PDs actually give a flying fu-k once you have completed your servitude!

More residents-----More CMS money----More in the pockets of PDs and GME.

WE SHOULD LEARN FROM THE SAVY DERMATOLOGISTS HOW TO TURN A SPECIALITY INTO A GOLDMINE.

 

[APCPBBNP]

<TABLE id=reg5_table20 class=pcrtable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR id=reg5_tr_d1><TD id=reg5_td_dx1 class=pcrtablecolor width="75%" colSpan=3>Just finished talking to Ms Cathy Fangman to see if position in MN has been filled. No, position is not filled; yet; they received 53 application, so far;
hard to belive?
Check by yourself.
Contact information provided below

"Midwest Pathology Opportuntiy
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" height=1 colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR id=reg5_tr_d25><TD id=reg5_td_d25 class=pcrheadingcolor height=25 width="25%">Company</TD><TD id=reg5_td_dx25 class=pcrtablecolor width="75%" colSpan=3>Winona Health</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" height=1 colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR id=reg5_tr_d30><TD id=reg5_td_d30 class=pcrheadingcolor height=25 width="25%">Company Location</TD><TD id=reg5_td_dx30 class=pcrtablecolor width="75%" colSpan=3>Winona, MN 55987</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" height=1 colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR id=reg5_tr_d36><TD id=reg5_td_d36 class=pcrheadingcolor height=25 width="25%">Company Country</TD><TD id=reg5_td_dx36 class=pcrtablecolor width="75%" colSpan=3>United States</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" height=1 colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR id=reg5_tr_d4><TD id=reg5_td_d4 class=pcrheadingcolor height=25 width="25%">Job Location</TD><TD id=reg5_td_dx4 class=pcrtablecolor width="75%" colSpan=3>Winona, MN</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" height=1 colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR id=reg5_tr_d31><TD id=reg5_td_d31 class=pcrheadingcolor height=25 width="25%">Contact Name</TD><TD id=reg5_td_dx31 class=pcrtablecolor width="75%" colSpan=3>Cathy Fangman</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" height=1 colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR id=reg5_tr_d32><TD id=reg5_td_d32 class=pcrheadingcolor height=25 width="25%">Contact Phone</TD><TD id=reg5_td_dx32 class=pcrtablecolor width="75%" colSpan=3>(800) 944-3960 Ex. 4301"</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[dwil75]

Given the difficulty so many are facing, does anyone know, if one party were to be blamed, who it would be?

I ask because my husband (who reads SDN but does not post here) is also having trouble finding work... and we are willing to relocate anywhere, and he is an AMG with no red flags. It seems a shame to me. People spend their entire youth to get through the training en route to becoming a pathologist, and then... nothing? My husband is depressed, and he is not the downhearted type.

I would like to take action, even if in a small way, by writing or contacting those with the power to do something to better the market for everyone in path in the long run. Idealistic... maybe. Will it help my husband and I... probably not. But where one person is idealistic, 100 people may be heard, and 1000 may force changes.

So if anyone with more experience than me can suggest constructive ways to do this... I for one am ready to be a voice.

 

[raider]

I am sorry for all those having trouble finding a job.

Just to illustrate how much misguided our organizations are consider this:

Just recently Barbara Mckenna, speaking as ASCP president, gave a lengthy presentation on the need of "increasing the number of residency positions in pathology" by showing data on "shortage of med techs in lab medicine"

I kid you not.

 

[Sulfinator]

It's been close to 3 months since the OP talked out his 3 job prospects. Did you (Parts Unknown) eventually settle on one of these? Are you finding more prospects? Keep us posted.

 

[KeratinPearls]

I am sorry for all those having trouble finding a job.

Just to illustrate how much misguided our organizations are consider this:

Just recently Barbara Mckenna, speaking as ASCP president, gave a lengthy presentation on the need of "increasing the number of residency positions in pathology" by showing data on "shortage of med techs in lab medicine"

I kid you not.

Umm ok so what is that supp to mean? Path residents are going to be replacing med techs? So we are going to be putting tubes into a machine for analysis? We are going to be running gels? Geez how dumb is that? When and where was this said?

This just really pisses me off. Terrible leadership. On a side note, I just heard today from a co-resident that the chair of a VA program told him that he knows of a lot of "good pathologists who don't have jobs." Freaking sad.

How about getting a petition together and send it to the leaders?

 

[APCPBBNP]

Surprise, real life and internet life often only overlap to a minor extent. Internet forums can be havens for the disaffected, the incompetents, and the self-loathing, as well as for the truly aggrieved, unlucky, or ****-upon. It can be quite hard to tell the difference. So while it is good to listen to opinions online, it is not good to always take them as gospel truth. One post can be an outlier, but two similar posts become a trend, and three similar posts become an ironclad fact that no one can argue.

Personally, I haven't talked to tons of graduating residents recently. The good ones that I know have received a good offer or multiple offers, and the bad ones have not (although some still have offers). I don't really know the caliber of offers though. From what people tell me jobs can be scarce depending on what specific area you are looking at, but the specific areas are variable year to year. Subspecialty fellowships can also be quite important. But since it seems like 50% of residents now are doing a dermpath or GI fellowship, that might not last.

The other problem, of course, is that good jobs can be hard to find too. And it can be hard to tell whether a job is a good one or not, as people will lie to you from both perspectives. From my unscientific personal anecdotal surveys, people have an increasing tendency to lie or stretch the truth the more they talk about money and prestige. So find yourself a self-loathing hippie driving a 1995 Honda as your group chairman. You may go far.

Dear Lipoma,
Could you please explain to us how come 50% of path residents are doing a dermpath or GI fellowship?
There are at least 500 pathology graduates each year.<O</O
According to FREIDA, there are 54 dermpath positions available each year; both, dermatology and pathology residents are fighting for one of these; guess who has a better chance to get one of these spots?<O</O
There are handful GI fellowships out there; 20-30 max.<O</O
So in the best case scenario, derm people somehow are out of game, there can't be more than 84 dermpath/GI spots available.<O</O
<O</O
So, Lipoma, please tell us where these 170 something fellowships are? Many of us would be extremely happy to apply, even if demand might not last, according to your prediction

 

[Thrombus]

<TABLE id=reg5_table20 class=pcrtable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR id=reg5_tr_d1><TD id=reg5_td_dx1 class=pcrtablecolor width="75%" colSpan=3>Just finished talking to Ms Cathy Fangman to see if position in MN has been filled. No, position is not filled; yet; they received 53 application, so far;
hard to belive?
Check by yourself.
Contact information provided below

"Midwest Pathology Opportuntiy
</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" height=1 colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR id=reg5_tr_d25><TD id=reg5_td_d25 class=pcrheadingcolor height=25 width="25%">Company</TD><TD id=reg5_td_dx25 class=pcrtablecolor width="75%" colSpan=3>Winona Health</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" height=1 colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR id=reg5_tr_d30><TD id=reg5_td_d30 class=pcrheadingcolor height=25 width="25%">Company Location</TD><TD id=reg5_td_dx30 class=pcrtablecolor width="75%" colSpan=3>Winona, MN 55987</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" height=1 colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR id=reg5_tr_d36><TD id=reg5_td_d36 class=pcrheadingcolor height=25 width="25%">Company Country</TD><TD id=reg5_td_dx36 class=pcrtablecolor width="75%" colSpan=3>United States</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" height=1 colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR id=reg5_tr_d4><TD id=reg5_td_d4 class=pcrheadingcolor height=25 width="25%">Job Location</TD><TD id=reg5_td_dx4 class=pcrtablecolor width="75%" colSpan=3>Winona, MN</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" height=1 colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR id=reg5_tr_d31><TD id=reg5_td_d31 class=pcrheadingcolor height=25 width="25%">Contact Name</TD><TD id=reg5_td_dx31 class=pcrtablecolor width="75%" colSpan=3>Cathy Fangman</TD></TR><TR><TD style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px" height=1 colSpan=4></TD></TR><TR id=reg5_tr_d32><TD id=reg5_td_d32 class=pcrheadingcolor height=25 width="25%">Contact Phone</TD><TD id=reg5_td_dx32 class=pcrtablecolor width="75%" colSpan=3>(800) 944-3960 Ex. 4301"</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Unreal!!! thumbdown

Anyone care to argue "There are still plenty of jobs in the remote Midwest that you can always fall back on"

 

[Parts Unknown]

Unreal!!! thumbdown

Anyone care to argue "There are still plenty of jobs in the remote Midwest that you can always fall back on"

Well, 53 applications and the job is still unfilled. What does that say?

I have been taking fellowship candidates to lunch lately (it's that time of the year), and literally 50% of them can barely hold a conversation in English. And these are ostensibly qualified individuals, coming from well regarded programs, applying to a reasonably competitive subspecialty. WTF?

In the end I took a job not mentioned in my original three. Funny thing is the group is trying to hire a second person, but two have been scooped by other groups with unadvertised jobs. They are also due for two retirements by 2012. Should be fun.

 

[raider]

Keratin pearls

For your viewing pleasure "Barbara McKenna's presentation on shortage of pathologists and the strong need to increase number of residencies"

http://www.pathology.ecu.edu/Public/graduate/SEAPC.pdf


No doubt people are "screaming for jobs" at conferences (kudos to them) Maybe it will wake up these "leaders" to the "real and acute crisis" viz. "HORRIBLE, DEPLORABLE, INSULTING, PATHETIC JOB MARKET"

IF THERE IS ANY INTEGRITY LEFT IN THESE PEOPLE, THEY WILL NOT TRAIN ANOTHER PERSON UNTIL FIRST EACH AND EVERY PATHOLOGIST HAS A JOB OF HIS /HER LIKING

 

[yaah]

Umm ok so what is that supp to mean? Path residents are going to be replacing med techs? So we are going to be putting tubes into a machine for analysis? We are going to be running gels? Geez how dumb is that? When and where was this said?

This just really pisses me off. Terrible leadership. On a side note, I just heard today from a co-resident that the chair of a VA program told him that he knows of a lot of "good pathologists who don't have jobs." Freaking sad.

How about getting a petition together and send it to the leaders?

The presentation did not equate med tech positions with pathologists. It had separate information on general physician numbers as well as laboratory specimens.

If you look at that data in the pdf most of it makes sense from the standpoint of population aging, increasing specimen load everywhere, and aging pathologist populations. You can't really dispute any of that data. What should be disputed is what was not discussed, which is the increasing specimen load per pathologist. The current load of pathologists has been able to handle increasing specimen load by being more efficient and subspecializing and compartmentalizing roles. That can probably increase more, but probably not that much more (anyone who actually practices pathology can attest that they are very busy and their workload cannot really increase much more). So all of that suggests that we will need more pathologists in the future. But how many more? Maybe we are training enough now? Are we sure specimen growth is going to continue on the same path? The problem is that it takes at least four years to train a pathologist, and you can't make drastic cuts without having a good idea of what things are going to be like.

Of course, none of that above addresses the current job market. And unfortunately, no one does any studies or surveys which actually prove that the current job market is bad. As I have said repeatedly, it is not up to them to prove to you that the job market is not bad. And random vitriolic posts on the internet (complete with colored text and boldface) and screaming at conferences doesn't do anyone any good.

There are a lot of variables out there which make it difficult to address this situation rationally and with appropriate data. As said, places receive over 50 applications and don't feel any of them are qualified. That is sad. It's an indictment of training programs. It is, however, quite easy to address it irrationally and with hostility or attacking other opinions, which is what this forum has proved.

Getting a petition together is not a bad idea. Harder to ignore or dispute.

 

[APCPBBNP]

The presentation did not equate med tech positions with pathologists. It had separate information on general physician numbers as well as laboratory specimens.

If you look at that data in the pdf most of it makes sense from the standpoint of population aging, increasing specimen load everywhere, and aging pathologist populations. You can't really dispute any of that data. What should be disputed is what was not discussed, which is the increasing specimen load per pathologist. The current load of pathologists has been able to handle increasing specimen load by being more efficient and subspecializing and compartmentalizing roles. That can probably increase more, but probably not that much more (anyone who actually practices pathology can attest that they are very busy and their workload cannot really increase much more). So all of that suggests that we will need more pathologists in the future. But how many more? Maybe we are training enough now? Are we sure specimen growth is going to continue on the same path? The problem is that it takes at least four years to train a pathologist, and you can't make drastic cuts without having a good idea of what things are going to be like.

Of course, none of that above addresses the current job market. And unfortunately, no one does any studies or surveys which actually prove that the current job market is bad. As I have said repeatedly, it is not up to them to prove to you that the job market is not bad. And random vitriolic posts on the internet (complete with colored text and boldface) and screaming at conferences doesn't do anyone any good.

There are a lot of variables out there which make it difficult to address this situation rationally and with appropriate data. As said, places receive over 50 applications and don't feel any of them are qualified. That is sad. It's an indictment of training programs. It is, however, quite easy to address it irrationally and with hostility or attacking other opinions, which is what this forum has proved.

Getting a petition together is not a bad idea. Harder to ignore or dispute.

It is just unbelievable how some people on this forum can misinterpret everything in order to make their opinion correct; since post regarding position in Winona is clearly misunderstood, I fill obligated to comment; Ms Fangman didn’t comment on quality of applicants; she just sad that they were in the process of reviewing 53 applications (she sounded a little bit upset with the number of applications that she had to review, but this is just my impression, I might be wrong, it was late Friday afternoon when I called), and that was still not late to apply; ones the process of reviewing is over, selected candidates will be called for an interview.fficeffice" /><O></O>
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[JPR22]

Alot of interesting posts. If a small place like Winona (pop 27000) is getting 50 applications, regardless of quality, then something's wrong. Perhaps alot of training programs aren't really doing the best job. Maybe the boards are too easy? I've heard a few stories about groups getting many applicants, but nothing which suited their needs though. Im really not sure what to make of the situation.

 

[pathstudent]

The presentation did not equate med tech positions with pathologists. It had separate information on general physician numbers as well as laboratory specimens.

If you look at that data in the pdf most of it makes sense from the standpoint of population aging, increasing specimen load everywhere, and aging pathologist populations. You can't really dispute any of that data. What should be disputed is what was not discussed, which is the increasing specimen load per pathologist. The current load of pathologists has been able to handle increasing specimen load by being more efficient and subspecializing and compartmentalizing roles. That can probably increase more, but probably not that much more (anyone who actually practices pathology can attest that they are very busy and their workload cannot really increase much more). So all of that suggests that we will need more pathologists in the future. But how many more? Maybe we are training enough now? Are we sure specimen growth is going to continue on the same path? The problem is that it takes at least four years to train a pathologist, and you can't make drastic cuts without having a good idea of what things are going to be like.

Of course, none of that above addresses the current job market. And unfortunately, no one does any studies or surveys which actually prove that the current job market is bad. As I have said repeatedly, it is not up to them to prove to you that the job market is not bad. And random vitriolic posts on the internet (complete with colored text and boldface) and screaming at conferences doesn't do anyone any good.

There are a lot of variables out there which make it difficult to address this situation rationally and with appropriate data. As said, places receive over 50 applications and don't feel any of them are qualified. That is sad. It's an indictment of training programs. It is, however, quite easy to address it irrationally and with hostility or attacking other opinions, which is what this forum has proved.

Getting a petition together is not a bad idea. Harder to ignore or dispute.

Barbara Mckenna makes a good argument with real data.

However with regard to AP specimens, no way well they be doubling by 2020 at each institution. Does the University of Michigan have the OR capacity to double it's output?

In fact, I think one can make an argument that there will likely be less surgical specimens in the future. Patient's with cancer will get biopsied by radiologists who will send the tissue for proprietary gene studies which will identify the tumor and determine the best course of chemo. Pathologists could end up totally out of the loop. That seems to be the trend with onco-tech and mammaprint, those companies aren't selling kits for pathologists to interpret and bill for. They want the tissue themselves. I see a future where big surgeries could very well be far fewer in number than now.

More reason to do dermpath/gi if you want to guarantee work in the future.

 

[path19]

I interviewed at a similar small town in the midwest and was likewise told by the hospital's physician recruiter that she had well over 50 applicants for the 1 pathology job. She actually stated that this was unlike anything she had ever seen for other specialty job postings. Makes me wonder how many applications they get for an ortho/dermatology/radiology/etc opening.

...you can't make drastic cuts without having a good idea of what things are going to be like.

Why? Worst case scenario (which is unlikely in my opinion) is there are too many specimens for the number of pathologists and turn around time will suffer. It's likely that surgeons won't take their local pathologist for granted anymore in that scenario, as other surgeons or other clinicans elsewhere would be begging that pathologist to come work at their institution instead.

And unfortunately, no one does any studies or surveys which actually prove that the current job market is bad. As I have said repeatedly, it is not up to them to prove to you that the job market is not bad. And random vitriolic posts on the internet (complete with colored text and boldface) and screaming at conferences doesn't do anyone any good.

While this is sadly true, I cannot in my wildest dreams imagine trainees in other specialties (i.e. dermatology) talking about doing job market surveys or petitions to present to their leadership. It's just not an issue. They focus on learning their material and the job of their choice is basically an afterthought. It never crosses their mind that they really need to stand out in comparison to their peers in order to get a great job. Every single person in their profession is proud to be part of it and their leaders take pride in the fact that they are all paid well for very reasonable hours. I know from talking to friends in other specialties that their PD's like to brag about the great jobs all of their graduates get. In fact, I remember one instance when an ortho attending came to the frozen room and was bragging to the pathologist I was working with that his graduates get 750-1 M jobs every year...When was the last time anyone heard a path attending bragging about this?

 

[2121115]

I know from talking to friends in other specialties that their PD's like to brag about the great jobs all of their graduates get.

You will never hear of a pathology PD doing this. The attendings in my department take pride in how many residents they have in their program, not how well those residents do after they leave. The number of residents is worn as the badge of honor, not that these residents are all going on to good jobs. Pathology is bass ackwards in this regard.

 

[path24]

So specimen numbers are going up Michigan, so I guess everyone's numbers are going up and will continue to do so. Wonder if she has heard of the housing market?

Who retires at 65? Especially when most lost a good % of their retirement.

For those that need a study, there are multiple of examples like Winona. If you can't believe those numbers, you won't believe any number. You don't need a study you are in denial and are part of the problem.

I also enjoy they must be poor candidates comments...really just from looking at a CV (or in reality you haven't even done that). There is no pathology combine to show of your skills.

Please list the places that got 20+ candidates and didn't fill the opening? I know of none. I do know of a lot of places (pathoutlines testimonials, talking to fellows...etc.) that are getting way to many applicants.