Job in Irvine?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
R

radoncfirst

New Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
I am looking into rad onc jobs in Irvine due to family reasons. There's no Irvine job postings on ASTRO website. Are there malignant employers in Irvine one should avoid? Searching through old messages on this forum, someone mentioned KSK?

Thank you
Members don't see this ad.
 
Typically, you should contact anyone who left the position in the past 10 years. Irvine is a great location.
 
All I know is the KSK job has popped up multiple times over the past few years. Previous posters have speculated that it is a churn and burn practice, but this is all uncorroborated and I would encourage you reach out to that job directly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
Thank you to all who have replied so far. Since I didn't train in California, I don't know anyone there at all and not sure how to find out/contact people who left the position in the past 10 years...
 
radoncfirst said:
Thank you to all who have replied so far. Since I didn't train in California, I don't know anyone there at all and not sure how to find out/contact people who left the position in the past 10 years...
Click to expand...
Google is your friend. Google ROs in Irvine and contact those who are no longer there and were associated with that practice
 
I won't get into details because of the recent antics on this board, but I encourage you to speak to former employees (or even other rad oncs in the area) if you're seriously considering the position. Let's get real...a practice in one of the most desirable geographies in all of the USA that can't retain doctors...that should raise a big red flag. That being said, I've had conversations with a few of the guys who have worked there and the only real complaint I've heard is that partnership is promised but never materializes. This is apparently a big let-down for many because the practice is obviously very lucrative and at least a few of the people I spoke with were quite entrerepneurial and took the position anticipating a pay off in the end. The practice siphons a considerable amount of prime business from the local hospitals and it will likely garner top dollar from one of them when owner is ready to retire. Not sure I can blame the owner for not wanting to just hand that over.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Similar type of practice in the NYNJ area was posted on ASTRO website. Freestanding center. The whole thing sounded like a shade fest. Old equipment. Not even really sure where the referrals are coming from. Smack in the middle of Large hospital conglomerate. I’m not really sure what the guy was thinking when he posted this job. Then again wasn’t really sure what the patients were thinking coming there.
 
HAH, like I said, I don't wanna get too detailed. But the word starting with "Sh" that someone else used is commonly ascribed to the practice. I have never heard of anything illegal and the center actually has good equipment. They even do a lot of brachy. The big issue, according to SWIM, is that people are told things that never materialize. Not just rad oncs, but investors, referring docs, etc. And I'll leave it at that. If you wanna live in Irvine, it isn't a terrible option.
 
Last edited:
lets just say I wasn’t a good fit for the position. I worked too hard in med school and residency to take something like this.
 
Last edited:
PP rad onc has always been a minefield in desirable locales/states even a decade ago when the job market was better.... can't imagine how much worse it has become now.

Same principles help anywhere....do your research, know the layout/competition, and talk to former associates of the practice you're considering
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 3 users
Members don't see this ad :)
medgator said:
Covid won't kill this

American Society for Radiation Oncology (ASTRO), ASTRO Radiation Oncology Career Center|Find Your Career Here

American Society for Radiation Oncology (ASTRO) - Find your next career at ASTRO Radiation Oncology Career Center. Check back frequently as new jobs are posted every day.
careers.astro.org careers.astro.org
Click to expand...
Perfect timing for that dbag. Real bad guys here are the programs who created environment where grads have to sell their soul to these kind of people.
 
Last edited:
  • Sad
  • Like
  • Angry
Reactions: 4 users
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
warms my heart to know that bad places can’t fill
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
There are multiple practices out there taking advantage of the job market. This is why private practice is dying because of lack of transparency, half truths, straight lies of things that never materialize. New grads would rather be employed and know exactly how they can make more money through productivity in a hospital. The personalities and shadiness of private practices turn people off. The culture is not for everyone.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 5 users
Part time option = less than half of average income for full time RVUs but on-site 2-3 days a week.
We are supposed to be professionals, not shift-based factory workers. We should get paid the income our services generate minus administrative costs regardless of when or where it occurs. Income should not be based on how long we are physically present. It is sad that this is what we have been conditioned to accept.

thecarbonionangle said:
New grads would rather be employed and know exactly how they can make more money through productivity in a hospital.
Click to expand...

Opportunity cost of PP is enormous these days. Would not consider without a very clear agreement in writing of how ownership will be structured and how your buy-in and sweat equity will be accounted for and what the out will be if the partnership agreement does not materialize without very specific cause. The "your questions make it seem like you don't trust us" gaslighting trick really doesn't fly anymore. The entire point of private practice is ownership, and it seems very common for PP to bring someone on at low pay with the bait of ownership then try and switch them to an employee with a not-so-great contract now that they are established in the community at the two year mark and just forget about the sweat equity. What advantage does employment by PP owners offer over hospitals? I haven't found any in my n=2. Autonomy is less. Pay is less. Benefits are less. Vacation is less. Job security is less. Overall work environment sucks due to constant staff problems and turnover because of owners trying to maximize margins with cheapest available labor vs. a salaried hospital admin working with a set budget.

Ok, well actually there is a single benefit: You don't have as many stupid IT and compliance headaches, spending two weeks jumping through hoops to install Acrobat, etc. (because IT is also the bare minimum).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
MidwestRadOnc said:
Part time option = less than half of average income for full time RVUs but on-site 2-3 days a week.
We are supposed to be professionals, not shift-based factory workers. We should get paid the income our services generate minus administrative costs regardless of when or where it occurs. Income should not be based on how long we are physically present. It is sad that this is what we have been conditioned to accept.
Click to expand...
The only way “we” as a specialty stop this is to stop entertaining this job. No more “if you want to be in irvine it might be ok”. No it is not. Do not get taken for a ride. Do not even apply. These places should remain unfilled.
We are not going to improve this field without collective action. “Leaders” have shown their cards and are totally uninterested in improving the field. They do care about improving the girth of their wallets. We need to focus on what we control.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 2 users
thecarbonionangle said:
The only way “we” as a specialty stop this is to stop entertaining this job. No more “if you want to be in irvine it might be ok”. No it is not. Do not get taken for a ride. Do not even apply. These places should remain unfilled.
We are not going to improve this field without collective action. “Leaders” have shown their cards and are totally uninterested in improving the field. They do care about improving the girth of their wallets. We need to focus on what we control.
Click to expand...

Yeah, residents should have paid more attention in their training when they were educated on the reimbursement their services were worth and how to fairly value their skills in the marketplace. Also not skipping the mandatory "how to network better" seminars. Absolutely crucial.

Also, the I need to be here fallacy. No, you don't. Working in America anywhere is an enormous privilege if you can think globally that most would give up anything for. Even if you really, really want to be somewhere (and if that's true, you chose your specialty uhh..... poorly), it's amazing how everyone thinks giving this impression is somehow beneficial to them as a job candidate and not literally the exact opposite.

Edit: I also see the Florida version of this practice is also still trying to bait a sucker on astro.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
MidwestRadOnc said:
Also, the I need to be here fallacy. No, you don't. Working in America anywhere is an enormous privilege if you can think globally that most would give up anything for. Even if you really, really want to be somewhere (and if that's true, you chose your specialty uhh..... poorly), it's amazing how everyone thinks giving this impression is somehow beneficial to them as a job candidate and not literally the exact opposite.
Click to expand...
Amen. Surprisingly, there are in fact millions that managed to grow up outside of Southern California.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 3 users
Doctorer said:
Amen. Surprisingly, there are in fact millions that managed to grow up outside of Southern California.
Click to expand...
Also, people have weird sense of geography. I still have new grads tell me, "my partner's family lives in Orange County so we wanted to be close," when the job they are applying for is in the Bay Area. That's like considering a job in NJ because your family lives in Norfolk, VA. That's 400 miles away!
 
Gfunk6 said:
Also, people have weird sense of geography. I still have new grads tell me, "my partner's family lives in Orange County so we wanted to be close," when the job they are applying for is in the Bay Area. That's like considering a job in NJ because your family lives in Norfolk, VA. That's 400 miles away!
Click to expand...

Californians are, bar none, the most annoying about just getting back to the West Coast. Damn anything else.

Doesn't matter it's a flight away. It's CALIFORNIA.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
evilbooyaa said:
Californians are, bar none, the most annoying about just getting back to the West Coast. Damn anything else.

Doesn't matter it's a flight away. It's CALIFORNIA.
Click to expand...
Alternating droughts and floods, fires, earthquakes and median 7-figure home prices coupled with draconian housing policies/NIMBYism in many locales leading to rampant homelessness.

Just don't get it, but you're absolutely right.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
MidwestRadOnc said:
Part time option = less than half of average income for full time RVUs but on-site 2-3 days a week.
We are supposed to be professionals, not shift-based factory workers. We should get paid the income our services generate minus administrative costs regardless of when or where it occurs. Income should not be based on how long we are physically present. It is sad that this is what we have been conditioned to accept.



Opportunity cost of PP is enormous these days. Would not consider without a very clear agreement in writing of how ownership will be structured and how your buy-in and sweat equity will be accounted for and what the out will be if the partnership agreement does not materialize without very specific cause. The "your questions make it seem like you don't trust us" gaslighting trick really doesn't fly anymore. The entire point of private practice is ownership, and it seems very common for PP to bring someone on at low pay with the bait of ownership then try and switch them to an employee with a not-so-great contract now that they are established in the community at the two year mark and just forget about the sweat equity. What advantage does employment by PP owners offer over hospitals? I haven't found any in my n=2. Autonomy is less. Pay is less. Benefits are less. Vacation is less. Job security is less. Overall work environment sucks due to constant staff problems and turnover because of owners trying to maximize margins with cheapest available labor vs. a salaried hospital admin working with a set budget.

Ok, well actually there is a single benefit: You don't have as many stupid IT and compliance headaches, spending two weeks jumping through hoops to install Acrobat, etc. (because IT is also the bare minimum).
Click to expand...

Overall I think you are spot on for most. There are some still true PP or multi-specialty PP with clear buy-in/equity and ROI. Good groups will be transparent about how the number is calculated and what you are buying into (i.e. real estate, linacs, office space). The risk of course is higher versus stability of an employed hospital job. I do not think most can bank on finding these "diamonds in the rough" which is unfortunate but true PP/ownership is the best when actually done fairly (but as we all know this is the exception not the rule).

Frustrating for sure how many have ruined all of this including some PP owners, hospital admins, and greedy corporations.
 
I've asked around about this job, and I've never heard anything terrible. The sense I get is that people have used it as a springboard to long term jobs in California. Basically, get their foot in the door and try to meet other California Rad oncs. Mostly what I've heard is the usual ill-defined track to partnership that never materializes. Owner is sitting on a gold mine. He's never letting you in on that.
 
Last edited:
  • Sad
Reactions: 1 user
Reaganite said:
I've asked around about this job, and I've never heard anything terrible. The sense I get is that people have used it as a springboard to long term jobs in California. Basically, get their foot in the door and try to meet other California Rad oncs. Mostly what I've heard is the usual ill-defined track to partnership that never materializes. Owner is sitting on a gold mine. He's never letting you in on that.
Click to expand...

Still doesn't really add up as this position has been consistently posted for over 5 years. Its not like there is a plethora of great private practice positions available in the Southern California market that people can just transfer to with great terms. There has to be more to it as to why this place can't seem to stay filled.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
fiji128 said:
Still doesn't really add up as this position has been consistently posted for over 5 years. Its not like there is a plethora of great private practice positions available in the Southern California market that people can just transfer to with great terms. There has to be more to it as to why this place can't seem to stay filled.
Click to expand...
My guess is the pay is extremely low and will never go up and it’s used as a springboard exactly as described.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
As someone who is very familiar with SoCal, daily life as a physician is depressing. You’re constantly reminded on how broke you are compared to where you thought you would be in life!
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
RadOncDoc21 said:
As someone who is very familiar with SoCal, daily life as a physician is depressing. You’re constantly reminded on how broke you are compared to where you thought you would be in life!
Click to expand...

I would imagine that this is very variable. Sure being a doc in cali isn't the same as being a doc in Iowa City, Iowa. But I don't think most people would say they are depressed on a daily basis lol

But it works out, the people who want to be in Cali really want to be there. and then there's some who are 'anti-California' sometimes for sociopolitical reasons a lot these days too. works out that people who want to be there find their way there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
drowsy12 said:
I would imagine that this is very variable. Sure being a doc in cali isn't the same as being a doc in Iowa City, Iowa. But I don't think most people would say they are depressed on a daily basis lol

But it works out, the people who want to be in Cali really want to be there. and then there's some who are 'anti-California' sometimes for sociopolitical reasons a lot these days too. works out that people who want to be there find their way there.
Click to expand...
I mean yea, anybody can be satisfied and by all means life is more then material things but places like SoCal and Miami have a certain lifestyle the typical doc can’t keep up with. For me, a private yacht and jet makes me happy (I’m kidding…kinda).
 
I heard mid 300s years ago...not out of norm for so cal but like radonc21 said, you can't live an la/Miami lifestyle on that 😅
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 1 users
MidwestRadOnc said:
Yeah, residents should have paid more attention in their training when they were educated on the reimbursement their services were worth and how to fairly value their skills in the marketplace. Also not skipping the mandatory "how to network better" seminars. Absolutely crucial.

Also, the I need to be here fallacy. No, you don't. Working in America anywhere is an enormous privilege if you can think globally that most would give up anything for. Even if you really, really want to be somewhere (and if that's true, you chose your specialty uhh..... poorly), it's amazing how everyone thinks giving this impression is somehow beneficial to them as a job candidate and not literally the exact opposite.

Edit: I also see the Florida version of this practice is also still trying to bait a sucker on astro.
Click to expand...
Not sure which FL practice you’re referring to (too many landmines in FL rad onc to count) but I did see a posting recently on Astro for a large mostly med onc company hiring rad oncs for multiple locations. Essentially genesis care 2.0 but shadier. Sad that these are the types of places hiring in rad onc currently but the fact that they’ve had difficulty recruiting hopefully means rad oncs are becoming more savvy.

www.news-press.com

Florida Cancer Specialists agrees to $120M in antitrust-related penalties

Investigators say the company conspired with others to divvy up cancer patients in Southwest Florida.
www.news-press.com
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
7bobthebuilder7 said:
Heard 350 this year plus 50 bonus atleast
Click to expand...

This on its own doesn’t tell me much but does also point out that to many grads these days, starting salary is more important than it may have been in the past. When I graduated nearly a decade ago now, the focus for us was more what we were looking at it in year 4-5. I think we have been forced to recalibrate.

Any info on whether this is a ramp up, even if it’s a bait and switch?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
drowsy12 said:
This on its own doesn’t tell me much but does also point out that to many grads these days, starting salary is more important than it may have been in the past. When I graduated nearly a decade ago now, the focus for us was more what we were looking at it in year 4-5. I think we have been forced to recalibrate.

Any info on whether this is a ramp up, even if it’s a bait and switch?
Click to expand...
3 years to partnership i heard but not sure if written rule and not sure on the aspect of ramp up, wasnt my offer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
RadOncDoc21 said:
I mean yea, anybody can be satisfied and by all means life is more then material things but places like SoCal and Miami have a certain lifestyle the typical doc can’t keep up with. For me, a private yacht and jet makes me happy (I’m kidding…kinda).
Click to expand...
I think most new grads would be happy owning a home and 2 cars. Probably doable in Miami but not socal.
 
RickyScott said:
I think most new grads would be happy owning a home and 2 cars. Probably doable in Miami but not socal.
Click to expand...
It all depends on the situation. I had no help paying for ned school and came out with essentially no savings/investments and substantial debt (ie, negative capital). My wife had saved enough for a decent down payment so we could swing a decent mortgage. Could we have made Orange County work on an “average” starting salary. At the time, probably. 1.2-1.5M would get a decent home and at 2-2.5% interest, it would have been doable without being totally house poor. But now, those same houses are more like 1.6-1.8 and last I saw, 30 year mortgages are tracking closer to 8%. You would need a substantial amount of capital to even get the loan. The lender doesn’t care one bit what you “should” be making 3 years down the road. Even if you get it, unless you gave a rich family or your spouse also has a high paying job, there won’t be much left.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 8 users
drowsy12 said:
This on its own doesn’t tell me much but does also point out that to many grads these days, starting salary is more important than it may have been in the past. When I graduated nearly a decade ago now, the focus for us was more what we were looking at it in year 4-5. I think we have been forced to recalibrate.

Any info on whether this is a ramp up, even if it’s a bait and switch?
Click to expand...
I just matched so not a grad but you are correct. When I talk to my classmates, starting salary is the important to us and the reason for it is we’re in 350k debt with 7-8% interest, sky high house prices with 6-7% interests. Also, we’ve been witnessing our friends in other fields specially tech making so much money (some of them in tech could possibly retire before we even start our attending jobs!) and the aggressive bull market… we all feel left out. Then we also hear about AI and all the physician payment cuts make us worry about the future. That’s why the grads want to get their hands on as much money as soon as possible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 8 users
DrProtonX said:
I just matched so not a grad but you are correct. When I talk to my classmates, starting salary is the important to us and the reason for it is we’re in 350k debt with 7-8% interest, sky high house prices with 6-7% interests. Also, we’ve been witnessing our friends in other fields specially tech making so much money (some of them in tech could possibly retire before we even start our attending jobs!) and the aggressive bull market… we all feel left out. Then we also hear about AI and all the physician payment cuts make us worry about the future. That’s why the grads want to get their hands on as much money as soon as possible.
Click to expand...

There is no telling what the world will be like in 5 years. I suspect that all of your friends who got rich on bitcoin and leveraging in low interest rate environments will be in a different place then. Just don't have unrealistic expectations for what medicine will do for you. Other sectors like tech, real estate, oil/gas, etc. are boom-bust. People that made 8 figures in a year in 2000 were broke in 2002. Even if CMS cuts reimbursement by 50%, you will still be ok (really, way better than most) in medicine just with boring things like living below your means and maxing out your 401k and 457b.

The time value of money is important. Maxing out those accounts from age 30-33 is going to translate into a huge wealth difference at retirement vs. taking a much lower salary during those years and not ending up a partner/owner.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
MidwestRadOnc said:
There is no telling what the world will be like in 5 years. I suspect that all of your friends who got rich on bitcoin and leveraging in low interest rate environments will be in a different place then. Just don't have unrealistic expectations for what medicine will do for you. Other sectors like tech, real estate, oil/gas, etc. are boom-bust. People that made 8 figures in a year in 2000 were broke in 2002. Even if CMS cuts reimbursement by 50%, you will still be ok (really, way better than most) in medicine just with boring things like living below your means and maxing out your 401k and 457b.

The time value of money is important. Maxing out those accounts from age 30-33 is going to translate into a huge wealth difference at retirement vs. taking a much lower salary during those years and not ending up a partner/owner.
Click to expand...
Gfunk and I have said it multiple times…money makes money. If you invest well and have an average or better return, at some point, your investments may well start earning more than your job. At the very least a substantial portion of them. For new grads, your wages are your income but at our income, it’s a financial mistake to rely on wages your primary income over the long run. Pro athletes are not the only ones who make a lot, blow through it, and end up wondering where it all went.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
ramsesthenice said:
Gfunk and I have said it multiple times…money makes money. If you invest well and have an average or better return, at some point, your investments may well start earning more than your job. At the very least a substantial portion of them. For new grads, your wages are your income but at our income, it’s a financial mistake to rely on wages your primary income over the long run. Pro athletes are not the only ones who make a lot, blow through it, and end up wondering where it all went.
Click to expand...
"If you don't find a way to make money while you sleep, you will work until you die."
- Warren Buffett
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
7bobthebuilder7 said:
Funny how he still works though...
Click to expand...
Not sure he thinks of it as work... Secret to work is finding what you like to do and then finding a way to get paid for it?

Munger died last year and I'm sure he's pretty far into succession planning at this point

Guy lives on sees candies, cherry coke and DQ and he definitely isn't hardcore by any stretch of the imagination

fortune.com

93-year-old Warren Buffett, the most famous investor alive, has a remarkably healthy work-life balance

"I have no desire to get to work at four in the morning."
fortune.com fortune.com
 
ramsesthenice said:
Gfunk and I have said it multiple times…money makes money. If you invest well and have an average or better return, at some point, your investments may well start earning more than your job. At the very least a substantial portion of them. For new grads, your wages are your income but at our income, it’s a financial mistake to rely on wages your primary income over the long run. Pro athletes are not the only ones who make a lot, blow through it, and end up wondering where it all went.
Click to expand...
You would need 15M invested to spit off an annual rad onc MGMA income. Boomers could have done this no issue. New grads, hah that’s funny.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
MidwestRadOnc said:
You would need 15M invested to spit off an annual rad onc MGMA income. Boomers could have done this no issue. New grads, hah that’s funny.
Click to expand...
New grads weren't doing that a decade or two either, brah.

Takes time and patience. Snowball effect over several decades of practice. Definitely harder now for new grads than before covid but I'm pretty sure no one on this forum has a nw anywhere close to that
 
medgator said:
New grads weren't doing that a decade or two either, brah.

Takes time and patience. Snowball effect over several decades of practice. Definitely harder now for new grads than before covid but I'm pretty sure no one on this forum has a nw anywhere close to that
Click to expand...
I have a hard time believing someone who entered practice in 2000 and got paid on an eat what you kill basis and invested 50% of their take home consistently in the s&p is not in the 8 figure portfolio range, likely a lot more. The IMRT reimbursement of the 00s combined with the bull market run of the 10s, must have been nice. If you’re not very wealthy under that scenario you really did something wrong (spending all of your take home, multiple divorces, investing with madoff, etc)

Edit: I ran a simple backtest on this. Investing 10k per month into SPY starting in 2000 and reinvesting dividends, adjusting future contributions for inflation to be worth 10k in 2000 dollars results in a current portfolio value of 16M. Putting away 20k per month leaves you with 32M. Investing in the nasdaq instead of the s&p leaves you with 57M. Depressed yet? You got another 10 years to go, repeating the past 10 year performance would leave you with 321M in 2034. Add leveraged funds and things really get wacky. All from an early start just saving most of your money every month in an index fund. I have no reason to expect current grads where have anywhere near this level of wealth building opportunity due to cost of living, interest rates, tapped out economic growth, and income not keeping up with inflation.

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

elementaryschooleconomics
RadOnc Job Market: Back to the Future
Replies
3
Views
1K
evilbooyaa
evilbooyaa
B
VA Radiation Oncology jobs?
Replies
41
Views
2K
ramsesthenice
R
I
2022 Graduate Job Thread
Replies
16
Views
2K
medgator
M
Lilyhopeless
How is Rad-Onc job market?
Replies
26
Views
3K
IonsAreOurFuture
I
D
Job market musings …
Replies
24
Views
2K
dieABRdie
D
Top