Israeli Medical School or DO School?

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Carlsbad1919

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I know this is an odd question but I am applying to MD, DO, and Israeli medical schools and was wondering about how they all rank as far as residency issues. My first (obvious) choice would be a US medical school. If that does not happen, I really enjoy research and find that is something lacking at most DO schools (although other than that they seem like a really good option). Israeli medical school programs for Americans on the other hand have excellent research programs (I have family there and unlike the Caribbean, Israeli schools have full hospital privileges). I was wondering if anyone had any insight or advice on the different options?:oops:

Thanks
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Carlsbad1919 said:
I know this is an odd question but I am applying to MD, DO, and Israeli medical schools and was wondering about how they all rank as far as residency issues. My first (obvious) choice would be a US medical school. If that does not happen, I really enjoy research and find that is something lacking at most DO schools (although other than that they seem like a really good option). Israeli medical school programs for Americans on the other hand have excellent research programs (I have family there and unlike the Caribbean, Israeli schools have full hospital privileges). I was wondering if anyone had any insight or advice on the different options?:oops:

Thanks
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There are several DO programs that do have research opportunities (Western, UMDNJ...) but I think the real benefit is that being a US (MD or DO) student makes it exponentially easier to match into residency.

Good luck in your decision.
 
Carlsbad1919 said:
I know this is an odd question but I am applying to MD, DO, and Israeli medical schools and was wondering about how they all rank as far as residency issues. My first (obvious) choice would be a US medical school. If that does not happen, I really enjoy research and find that is something lacking at most DO schools (although other than that they seem like a really good option). Israeli medical school programs for Americans on the other hand have excellent research programs (I have family there and unlike the Caribbean, Israeli schools have full hospital privileges). I was wondering if anyone had any insight or advice on the different options?:oops:

Thanks
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Just listened to a presentation a couple days ago by one of the higher ups in Osteopathy and he was saying that they definitely have a primary care focus, BUT he also said that there were schools that focused on research. Look into the DO schools that offer research they would be a better fit for you if you hope to practice in the US.
 
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Carlsbad1919 said:
I know this is an odd question but I am applying to MD, DO, and Israeli medical schools and was wondering about how they all rank as far as residency issues. My first (obvious) choice would be a US medical school. If that does not happen, I really enjoy research and find that is something lacking at most DO schools (although other than that they seem like a really good option). Israeli medical school programs for Americans on the other hand have excellent research programs (I have family there and unlike the Caribbean, Israeli schools have full hospital privileges). I was wondering if anyone had any insight or advice on the different options?:oops:

Thanks
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I have no doubt that Israeli medical schools are top-notch, however if you plan on practicing in the US it is always best to get your medical education domestically. There are many excellent DO programs, however not all are created equal. I encourage you to research each school separately rather than making the decision DO v Israel. It should be PCOM or CCOM or KCOM, etc etc individually vs the International school of choice.

Best of luck with your decision.
 
Israeli hospitals are top notch - however, I would definitely take the advice Maximus gave you. If you want to practice here, then do medical school here. I'm not saying that you won't be able to do that if you go through Israel, but there are hoops that you wouldn't have had if you had gone DO. Good luck! :luck:
 
MaximusD said:
I have no doubt that Israeli medical schools are top-notch, however if you plan on practicing in the US it is always best to get your medical education domestically. There are many excellent DO programs, however not all are created equal. I encourage you to research each school separately rather than making the decision DO v Israel. It should be PCOM or CCOM or KCOM, etc etc individually vs the International school of choice.

Best of luck with your decision.
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Agreed. If at all possible, you want to avoid the "overseas medical school" stigma.
 
I should have specified that I am only applying to American Medical Programs in Israel (Sackler, Technion). I don't know if that makes a difference but I thought I should mention it. Thanks again
 
I was in your situation last year when I was applying. I decided against DO schools altogether because of the stigma associated with them -just my preference. I would have chosen an Israeli school over an American DO school. I almost picked an Israeli school over the two MD schools I did get into.

In my case, I am from a midwest state and I did not get accepted into any east coast schools. Since most of my family lives on the east coast this was a real bummer for me. I was considering the israeli schools because they have a high match rate into the east coast residency programs. Sackler, for instance, has a great reputation throughout the New York Tristate area, so matching into residencies is not difficult if that is the area you want to end up in. In the end, do you care if you have a DO or MD at the end of your name, because coming from Israel you will still have the MD. For me, this was important. If it is not important to you, than you can ignore my advice - I won't be insulted. :)
 
I'dbe interested to see comparative match rates for DOs who go Allopathic residency vs. Israeli MDs. FWIR, FMGs have a harder time getting residncies than even American DOs. Not sure how this plays out specifically for Israely schools.
 
Unfortunately they do not post that information anywhere. I looked but did not find. I found quite a number of articles on topics such as "Not all FMGs are created equal". Also, when I was looking into the Israeli schools, I called a number of residency programs in my current area of medical interest. The schools around the New York area raved highly about Technion and Sackler, said they match a lot of studetns from there, but said they haven't had any students from the medical school that I am going to be attending in the midwest. On the other hand, I called schools not in the NY area and they treated Sackler and Technion like any other FMG and said that an applicant coming from those schools would have a much smaller chance of getting in than an applicant from any MD school in the US. I am sure I made the right decision for myself to attend an MD US school - but I don't want the OP to think the Israeli schools are always treated like other FMGs. There are definitely highly rated residency programs that recognize the quality of education that the Israeli schools provide.
 
Hmmm...in your situation I would probably apply broadly, and then compare the schools individually before making my decision. Agree that most DO schools are not research-oriented...at least not bench research oriented definitely. I agree with the previous post/last comment. I think she hit the nail on the head. I think NYC and maybe the rest of the northeast knows about the Israeli med schools but in a lot of the rest of the country you'll end up getting treated like a lot of other FMG's. Also keep in mind that there are extra hoops to jump through to get a license in some states if you are an FMG (google and surf the California medical board's web site if you want to see an example of this). This makes going to school in the US just an easier overall option. I know someone who went to Sackler and had a hard time getting a categorical general surg residency in the US...now switched to a different specialty and doing well. I think if you want to match into any thing medium competitive or above, would definitely start honing in on that and do some related research while in med school, if you go either DO or to an Israeli school. You'll have to be better than the average US MD grad to get such a residency. If you just want to do pysch, IM, peds or family practice, I think you can go to any school (including Israeli or DO) and do OK in the US Match.

Either way, if you are a US citizen that will make it easier on you in the Match, vs. a FMG who is foreign-born and needs a visa, etc.

If you are torn, would apply to all...MD schools, DO, Israeli med, and see what kind of interview invites you can get.
 
TopDocChick said:
I was in your situation last year when I was applying. I decided against DO schools altogether because of the stigma associated with them -just my preference.
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Kind of an odd and contradicting statement. Not much of a stigma involved outside of premeds and a few guys in their 70s. Your preference, perceived stigma, or your personal stigma?

Anyway, it is just a matter of what school you like. Keep in mind that many of the israeli schools have similar or higher admission statistics then many DO and MD schools in the states. I believe one had near a 30 mcat average last year. I would personally choose some of the DO schools I interviewed at over some of the MD schools. They were nicer and had more opportunities. The letters mean jack and should be ignored a bit. Nobody really cares in the real world. I have never heard anyone complain one way or the other outside of a select group of premed students. Apply broadly, interview at a bunch of places, and pick the school you like best. Israeli schools tend to have the bulk of their matches in the new york area, which may be important to you. DO schools have a lot of their residency programs in the midwest. If you want something like internal medicine or family medicine then it won't be a big concern either way.
 
The other thing you might want to consider is living in Israel for 3-4 years. Personally, I would be thrilled at the prospect. I've lived abroad and would relish the opportunity to learn another language and culture so thoroughly. Still, that might not be everybody's idea of a good time.
 
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MossPoh said:
Kind of an odd and contradicting statement. Not much of a stigma involved outside of premeds and a few guys in their 70s. Your preference, perceived stigma, or your personal stigma?
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Haha, I guess your right. It must be personal - by my loving husband who is willing to support me through it all as long as I end up an MD at the end. :)
 
EMT2ER-DOC said:
then educate your husband about DOs.
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Please don't turn this thread into a DO vs MD debate. Everyone has different values and opinions - accept them even if you don't agree with them. I value my marriage and love my husband and don't need to change his views about something that doesn't really affect our lives very much. Personally, I am just as comfortable with my health care being in the hands of an MD, DO, CNM, NP, etc as long as the person is intelligent and competent. My husband actually feels the same way about his health care - he just wanted me to be an MD. Who cares, it is water under the bridge now. I was just giving the OP another POV to look at so please don't take offense.
 
TopDocChick said:
Please don't turn this thread into a DO vs MD debate. Everyone has different values and opinions - accept them even if you don't agree with them. I value my marriage and love my husband and don't need to change his views about something that doesn't really affect our lives very much. Personally, I am just as comfortable with my health care being in the hands of an MD, DO, CNM, NP, etc as long as the person is intelligent and competent. My husband actually feels the same way about his health care - he just wanted me to be an MD. Who cares, it is water under the bridge now. I was just giving the OP another POV to look at so please don't take offense.
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Your tone regarding my post is over the top. Where in my post did I even say anything about MD vs DO? No where. So do not accuse me to changing this thread into something that I am not. To tell you the truth, I did feel that you are making assumptions about me that you have no right to. I am sure that you value your marriage, just as I value mine. I am sure that you love your husband just as I love my wife. You were a bit too defensive.

You and your husband are adults and are intelligent enough to make your own opinions. The purpose of my post was just a suggestion. I do not know you or your husband. I do not know if he is aware that there are other physicians out there.

Good luck with your applications and your future.
 
I think anyone considering going over seas must consider the precarious situation of credit and lending in this period or in the future.

If you're well-funded through your own auspices then as usual normal concerns don't pertain to you. But if you'll be funding your education on credit, I'd be very, very cautious of leaving the states.
 
nasruddin has a good point
I have a friend doing an MBA online, who is having trouble getting student loan funding to finish that. I think we'll see the lenders continue to clamp down in the next few years...

I think the post above here (actually 2 above) from New Jersey is being too harsh on topdocchick. I think the OP asked for people's opinions, and that is what he/she is getting. So don't trash another poster b/c she disagrees with you.

I actually think it's untrue that only "guys in their 70's" currently have some bias against DO's. I think there still is some bias remaining, for a number of reasons. One is that traditionally the academic standards have not been quite as high to get into some of the DO schools, and some patients and MD's know that. That doesn't mean that the vast majority of DO's aren't perfectly competent, and of course it takes more than a perfect MCAT score to make a good doctor...
Also, some people just have their doubts about the techniques of osteopathic manipulation and whether or not it works and should still be taught, vs. it being some sort of historical relic. Having been in internal med practice, I think that it probably could be useful in certain circumstances...particularly with some chronic pain patients who you don't want to just keep drugging more and more...
Also, in the past some of the DO schools didn't really have very organized clinical clerkships - they just would farm out the students to various primary care doctor's offices during 3rd and 4th years, or put them in very small hospitals that didn't necessarily have ICU's, etc. This meant some MD's were suspicious of the quality of their clinical training. Historically there has been bad feeling between MD's, some of whom felt they were "better", and the DO's, some of whom wanted to keep themselves apart, felt that their philosophy and techniques of medical care were superior, and felt they didn't want to interact with the MD's either. I think this stuff is going away more and more and I think the OP can succeed going either route - would only seriously worry about getting residency in some of the very competitive specialties like derm or radiology, or surgical subspecialties.
 
dragonfly99 said:
nasruddin has a good point

I think the post above here (actually 2 above) from New Jersey is being too harsh on topdocchick. I think the OP asked for people's opinions, and that is what he/she is getting. So don't trash another poster b/c she disagrees with you.
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Read my post. Where did I trash her? I never had a problem with her disagreeing with me. This is America and she can disagree with whomever she pleases. I did not like her assumptions of ME.

"Everyone has different values and opinions - accept them even if you don't agree with them. I value my marriage and love my husband and don't need to change his views about something that doesn't really affect our lives very much."

She is assuming I do not agree with her. I just suggested if her husband does not know anything about DOs then educate him. That is all. I do not see how a simple sentence has turned into a heated debate about my not accepting people's opinions? She tells me that she values her marriage. Where did THAT come from? How did my little statement imply that she does not value her marriage? She tells me that she does not need to change his views. OK, where did I argue that she should change his views? Where does she state that he knows about a DO and then made an educated guess about not being a DO?

I think people are ready WWWWAAAAYYYYY to into my little sentence and think that I am trying to sway opinion one way or another. And then, my response is being dissected and implied that I do not care for her opinion. Where in my response did I say that?

You know what? Forget it.

OP go to Israel, Russia, Poland, Mars, the Moon...whatever. I am out.
 
I have to say this is the one issue I have with message boards. I posted a question and received helpful information, unfortunately it also seems to have sparked some sort of quarrel. I just wanted to remind everyone that with text you cannot read intonation or intention and taking things personally from an anonymous message boards seems a bit silly. That said, best of luck to everyone.
 
Israeli med school, all the way.
EMT2, don't be discouraged because TDC got "offended" (which is beyond me, your posts are good and suggestable)
 
I would / did pick DO.

For me it was not even a question. But to each his own, illusenjester and dreamfox have the opposite view.

This is why no one can think for you. How can anyone but yourself make this decision?

This reminds me of an exchange between Howard Roark and Peter Keating in the Fountainhead.

If you want my advice, Peter," he said at last, "you've made a mistake already. By asking me. By asking anyone. Never ask people. Not about your work. Don't you know what you want? How can you stand it, not to know?"
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I think we're forgetting here that DO's have their own residencies as well -- including competitive fields like Plastics, Derm, Ophtho, ENT, Ortho, etc, etc. In fact, PCOM has all these residencies and then some (shameless plug!). These are EXCLUSIVE to DOs. What advantage will going to the Israeli med school give you?

So yes, it's more difficult to land these fields as a DO in the MD match but it is not impossible BY ANY MEANS. A solid USMLE Step 1 score, research, strategically planned electives at MD programs which then can set you up for great LORs from "big-whigs" is a recipe for success in the match, DO or not. It can be done. Trust me..;)
 
sexyman said:
I would / did pick DO.

For me it was not even a question. But to each his own, illusenjester and dreamfox have the opposite view.

This is why no one can think for you. How can anyone but yourself make this decision?

This reminds me of an exchange between Howard Roark and Peter Keating in the Fountainhead.
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I just vomited a little in my mouth. Thanks!
 
Thanks, this post helped me out. I am in a similar situation as the person who started this thread, just got accepted to NYCOM and I am concerned about residency/specialty options in the future as a D.O.

Any other advice you could provide would be helpful, such as D.O. vs. international regarding matching. Haven't applied international yet and also still waiting on some M.D. decisions, but would like to have my options ready.

Thanks.
 
gujuDoc said:
It is one thing to live in another country. It is another to live in one of the most dangerous countries in the world; mind you ne associated with daily terrorist attacks and constant war.
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I was in Israel in 1999. It was kinda' scary...:eek:
People were nice though, real nice.
 
gujuDoc said:
It is one thing to live in another country. It is another to live in one of the most dangerous countries in the world; mind you ne associated with daily terrorist attacks and constant war.
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I'm pretty sure the chances of being killed in Israel by a terrorist are lower than dying in a car accident. Also, sort of thinking about it, the US suffered a terrorist attack greater than Israel ever did (up to this point anyway). I lived in New York & LA for a while, and let me tell you about dangerous...
 
DOCTORSAIB said:
I think we're forgetting here that DO's have their own residencies as well -- including competitive fields like Plastics, Derm, Ophtho, ENT, Ortho, etc, etc. In fact, PCOM has all these residencies and then some (shameless plug!). These are EXCLUSIVE to DOs. What advantage will going to the Israeli med school give you?

So yes, it's more difficult to land these fields as a DO in the MD match but it is not impossible BY ANY MEANS. A solid USMLE Step 1 score, research, strategically planned electives at MD programs which then can set you up for great LORs from "big-whigs" is a recipe for success in the match, DO or not. It can be done. Trust me..;)
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PCOM graduates get into Philadelphia region ACGME residency programs with some degree of frequency, according to past few match lists.
I feel really honored to be heading to PCOM, and I'm thrilled to study medicine in Philadelphia.
"What you don't know you don't know", PCOM has an insanely reputable program, solid solid solid. I've looked it up, down, sideways for
the last two years. Multiple visits, shadowing on sight, interviewed faculty, hah! Was my #1 choice, no regrets after seeing other programs like Temple and Jefferson.
 
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gujuDoc said:
It is one thing to live in another country. It is another to live in one of the most dangerous countries in the world; mind you ne associated with daily terrorist attacks and constant war.
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:thumbdown:

EPIC FAIL, as they say.

You have a much higher chance of being the victim of violent crime in any major American city. What on earth gave you the idea that Israel is one of the most dangerous countries on the world?

OP: I think I would take DO over FMG.
 
gujuDoc said:
Hmm lets see. Constant news about bombings and shootings across Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. Former classmates from my youth who've told me they used to wake up every day to bullets outside of their house when they lived in Jerusalem (sp??). Let's see several US named terrorist groups existing both within and in the neighboring countries around Israel from Hamas to Hezbollah.

I think that sums it up nicely. I still stand by my original statements. One only needs to look in the news any given day to see the middle east is still one of the most dangerous places in the world and that Israel is not excluded but rather high on the target list for terror groups. The recent terrorist attacks in India against Israelis specifically was more proof of that one.

I stand by my original statements on the issue.

I would much rather live in a big city in the US then a country such as Israel.
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Your ignorance is showing. In 2008, 31 individuals were killed by terrorist attacks in Israel. 19 of them were civilians, and most of the attacks were near Gaza or the Jerusalem/West Bank border, generally not near the Israeli medical schools attended by Americans.

31/8 million = 0.38 in 100,000.

The overall homicide rate in Israel, including political (terrorist) and nonpolitical murders is about 1.87 per 100,000.

At the height of the terror attack wave of 2003 the homicide rate was about 3 in 100,000 but things have calmed down considerably since then.

Meanwhile, in the United States homicide rate was 5.7 in 100,000.

Of course, major cities are much higher; Detroit's is 46, St. Louis' is 40, Philadelphia's is 27, etc.

So please spare me your friends' lurid tales of waking up to bullets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rates
 
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That's kind of true.
I know Israelis and they tell me that if you stay out of the areas bordering the occupied territories/West Bank/Gaza you should be pretty safe.
One thing scary about terrorist attacks is the randomness, though. I have liked in one of those cities you cited about (with the supposedly high murder rates) and I can tell you that the vast majority of that crime is one convicted felon shooting another convicted felon. So if you don't live in a crappy neighborhood and/or hang out with a lot of drug dealers you are much safer than what those statistics suggest. With terrorism it is random so it's hard to ever feel safe.

Still, I do feel that our perception of Israel, and the Middle East in general, is definitely skewed by the fact that whenever we see those countries on the news it is usually in the context of some sort of violent event/war/terrorist attack. Naturally the people here then get an unrealistic view of what life is like there. I am sure the vast majority of folks in places like Iraq are not bomb toting terrorists either...most just want to get a job, 3 square meals a day and have a safe place to send their kids to school, and not have bombs falling on their heads or blowing up cars in the local marketplace.
 
As I said before, I'm not sure what I would do in your position. I'm interested in DO programs. I also am interested in Israeli MD programs because I love learning languages and culture etc. Three years + (some rotations are in the US) is a rare opportunity to really learn a language in depth, if you want. If that is of absolutely no interest to the OP, then mayb DO would be better. I'd say they're both great options that will lead to becoming a competent physician and will leave plenty of specialty doors open. The only reason i'm not more interested in Israel is because is that eventually having a family is important to me and I don't know if I would want to drag a wife and kids over to a foreign country for several years, or put of having a family.
 
One thing to keep in mind is the hurdle that you will face as foreign-trained doctor versus American-trained doctor.

While both options are viable and will let you reach your goals - there may be extra hurdles for foreign-trained doctors that US grads (US MDs and DOs) do not have to face (ie state licensure, gaining hospital priviledges, signing up to take board certification, etc)
 
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