Is There really diversity?

[DoctaJay]

This has been on my mind for awhile, and I wanted to know what you all thought about this (if the topic isn't appropriate, we can move it.)

Medical schools really think diversity is important, and the majority of that diversity includes diversity in race: black, white, asian, etc. However, I wonder if the diversity is worth it when in class the races sit together; during lunch the races sit together; the study groups formed are basically formed according to race; etc, etc, etc. I know it can't just be my medical school that is like this. I mean, everyone is nice and to each other, and generally we help each other out, but when it comes down to what really matters: passing around past tests, socializing outside class, inviting classmates over for dinner....it usually is stratified according to race.

I have to be honest. I went to an all black school from K-8, then a mostly black school for high school, and an HBCU for college. By now, I really want to interact with more than people of my race; I want to branch out and experience my classmates culture and study styles, etc. But it seems like unless you force yourself on most folks, it just won't naturally happen.

So I state my question again. Is this diversity thing working when we just split again when class starts?

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[LovelyMD]

Ok, this isn't really an answer to your question, but I just wanted to touch on another related issue. The things you brought up also make me unsure of how I feel about schools having a separate second look weekend for minorities. I almost think it would be better to not have a separate weekend at all, or to maybe make it an additional night on the regular second look weekend. While I definitely appreciate the gesture in making us feel welcome at their school, I feel as if you don't get a complete picture of the school until you meet all your potential future classmates, not just the minority students. Of course, if a school has 2 weekends, you could technically go to both, but 1) it means making additional travel arrangements, and 2) some of these weekends may conflict with second look weekends at other schools, so you may not even be able to go to both.

 

[MsJLewis]

Ok, this isn't really an answer to your question, but I just wanted to touch on another related issue. The things you brought up also make me unsure of how I feel about schools having a separate second look weekend for minorities. I almost think it would be better to not have a separate weekend at all, or to maybe make it an additional night on the regular second look weekend. While I definitely appreciate the gesture in making us feel welcome at their school, I feel as if you don't get a complete picture of the school until you meet all your potential future classmates, not just the minority students. Of course, if a school has 2 weekends, you could technically go to both, but 1) it means making additional travel arrangements, and 2) some of these weekends may conflict with second look weekends at other schools, so you may not even be able to go to both.

Sorry to hijack. This was one conversation that I had with my interviewer at Cornell. We ended up talking about race in medical school (which most interviewers try to stay away from) and had a fabulous discussion on the role of separate second look weekends. Recently my interviewer (who was Hispanic) was responsible for the removal of the black second look weekend at Cornell. We have to realize that we all are going to be colleagues and referring patients to each other in the future. Therefore, I think its best for us to meet and get comfortable (even friendly) with each other as soon as possible. That said I do see how a school would like to highlight the strength of the minority support network at their school.. so something such as a minority dinner (or something) during the regular Second Look weekend would be beneficial.

But back to DoctaJay's point. As an undergrad, I definitely felt that this was the case. People just seemed to naturally gravitate to the the people that you feel most comfortable with. I on the other hand made a concerted effort to diversify my friends and study partners. I really just tried to find people that I liked and clicked with. However, I wonder if this would have happened if my freshman roommate (and now best friend) who was Asian hadn't been my roommate. I ended up studying with her and her friends, which led me to branch out and meet other people from diverse groups.

Anyway, I think that going forward we should make an effort to break down these walls that we build up around us. Because medical school classes are already small enough without being only limited to the 10 other minorities in the class..

 

[RandomBlackManX]

Ok, this isn't really an answer to your question, but I just wanted to touch on another related issue. The things you brought up also make me unsure of how I feel about schools having a separate second look weekend for minorities. I almost think it would be better to not have a separate weekend at all, or to maybe make it an additional night on the regular second look weekend. While I definitely appreciate the gesture in making us feel welcome at their school, I feel as if you don't get a complete picture of the school until you meet all your potential future classmates, not just the minority students. Of course, if a school has 2 weekends, you could technically go to both, but 1) it means making additional travel arrangements, and 2) some of these weekends may conflict with second look weekends at other schools, so you may not even be able to go to both.

110% agree with everything you said.

 

[njbmd]

From the other side: I went to an all-white except me (I was 1/2 white) secondary school and to university where I was a definite minority (female and 1/2 black) with 9,000 students of which less than 20 were minority. I attended a graduate school where out of 20,000 students, I was the only non-white/asian graduate student in the College of Arts and Sciences.

When it came to medical school, I attended medical school were I was in the majority but we had a very diverse school. We might have sat in little groups during first year but by second year, we were "jelled" as a class. We are still pretty close even today. My very close friends from medical school run across ethnic groups (and specialties). Our school environment was very cooperative and it extended across ethnicities (a good thing in my opinion).

What I totally realize now is how few minority physicians are actually out there with most being in large cities. I also realize how few minority students make up medical school classes outside of the HBCUs. When I go to a national meeting such as the American College of Surgeons or even the American Physiological Society, I find that I am one of only a handful of minority participants. The numbers are just not there and I see pretty much the same people at most of the national meetings.

I find that participating in groups that are specific to ethnicities or minorities such as SNMA/NMA are great ways to fellowship with folks that have much in common with me. I am heading into a career in academic medicine and I want to have plenty of resources for others that are behind me. I blazed some trails but I want to reach back and extend a hand to those that will follow and will increase our numbers. I am not excluding other ethnicities but I am making sure that resources are there for folks like me because there were none when I went through.

I remember making a presentation in Vancouver, BC on vascular smooth muscle cell basic research back when I was a graduate student. There were 8,000 participants at that convention and I didn't see anyone who was black or latino. This was in 1995 (just a little over ten years ago). I know from experience that having a strong mentor and networking is key to success in both academia and medicine today. I never want anyone to feel as isolated as I did when I started in this business and to this end, I support having groups like SNMA/NMA in addition to groups like the AMA because there are often some issues that the mainstream national interest groups just don't address.

 

[UVABranch]

I had a similar experience with being the minority from pre k-college. However, in undergrad (maybe as a function of having had to "integrate") my school seemed to generally have pretty clear racial lines. AA w/AA; W w/W; Asians w/Asians...and within the aa community if you were not a part of it you could get some crazy looks. I wanted to go to an HBCU when I was in HS because I wanted to experience the other side of the coin. But in hindsight my school was the best place for me. There were about 2000-2500 aa students which was like a sea of people to me having been one of 4 in my HS graduating class. But I made the personal choice to have friends from different groups. My AA friends were from all walks of life, backgrounds and interest (athletes, honor students, first generation college students, etc). My white friends were not as varied, most were one the football team (where I worked) so the guys became brothers, the other were people who were in the same dorm my first year. But I had Asian friends, Indian friends, Hispanic friends (shouts out for teaching me how to salsa and bachata during the frat parties ) and it was nice to go to "their" parties and hang out with them even if I was the minority...because when they came to the aa parties they were the minority...and even if they got looks like "why are they here" they didn't care because the people they were there to hang out with thought they were cool, and actually by my 4th year many people expected them to come to the parties and had gotten past the race boundary.

I'm saying all of this to say, that I could have had the other side of the coin experience within my non HBCU school, and been content, but looking back, if I had done that my experience there would have been sooo much more limited. I still KIT w/ these people and I'm glad that as a group of friends we are able to enrich (as corny as it sounds) the lives of one another. If i am fortunate enough to get into NJB's Alma matter, I'm glad there's a mix of different groups...and I hope to get to know the vast majority of my classmates (here's hoping). either way, I think our experiences are what we make of them. It is totally natural (and I think a good thing) to seek out an befriend those like you, because the odds are they can relate to you, you to them, and that makes that whole "making friends" thing easier. But maybe try sitting in a different area of the lecture hall, or offering to help someone new, or just introducing yourself, or going to a happy hour, or having coffee (sorry that was long), whatever works. Just try and you might find that you have the ability to diversify your experience and thus the experience of the school. Like MsJLewis' interviewer said, we're going to have to interact with all of these people, we might as well begin now. It will likely be a benefit to us, and if we're lucky have some positive affect on others. (Maybe I'm a bit naive...but these are my hopes at least).

I think that's what schools are ideally looking for when they say diversity. That people from all backgrounds, ages, socioeconomic levels, experience, and interest will come together and meet. They can't force that though, we (as students) have to take that on ourselves.

 

[DoctaJay]

I agree UVAbranch and njbmd. I had just thought that medical school would be different. But hopefully it will turn out as njbmd says and that by second year and on, the class as a whole will gel.

 

[da me ka don]

Ok, this isn't really an answer to your question, but I just wanted to touch on another related issue. The things you brought up also make me unsure of how I feel about schools having a separate second look weekend for minorities. I almost think it would be better to not have a separate weekend at all, or to maybe make it an additional night on the regular second look weekend. While I definitely appreciate the gesture in making us feel welcome at their school, I feel as if you don't get a complete picture of the school until you meet all your potential future classmates, not just the minority students. Of course, if a school has 2 weekends, you could technically go to both, but 1) it means making additional travel arrangements, and 2) some of these weekends may conflict with second look weekends at other schools, so you may not even be able to go to both.

I already made a decision prior to this thread that I will only be attending one second look weekend - which is the general one.

 

[QofQuimica]

I agree UVAbranch and njbmd. I had just thought that medical school would be different. But hopefully it will turn out as njbmd says and that by second year and on, the class as a whole will gel.

I think this must be very school-dependent as well as person-dependent. My closest med school friends are a few of the other older students, both URM and non-URM. Even last year when we were first years, I don't think my class really divided much along racial lines. We also have a bunch of interracial couples, interestingly, both students and faculty (though not students with faculty!). I definitely didn't know this many people with significant others of different races in college, though to be fair, it's kind of been a while since I was in college.

 

[arsenewenger]

This has been on my mind for awhile, and I wanted to know what you all thought about this (if the topic isn't appropriate, we can move it.)

Medical schools really think diversity is important, and the majority of that diversity includes diversity in race: black, white, asian, etc. However, I wonder if the diversity is worth it when in class the races sit together; during lunch the races sit together; the study groups formed are basically formed according to race; etc, etc, etc. I know it can't just be my medical school that is like this. I mean, everyone is nice and to each other, and generally we help each other out, but when it comes down to what really matters: passing around past tests, socializing outside class, inviting classmates over for dinner....it usually is stratified according to race.

I have to be honest. I went to an all black school from K-8, then a mostly black school for high school, and an HBCU for college. By now, I really want to interact with more than people of my race; I want to branch out and experience my classmates culture and study styles, etc. But it seems like unless you force yourself on most folks, it just won't naturally happen.

So I state my question again. Is this diversity thing working when we just split again when class starts?

You have raised a good point. At my school, the same thing applies; In more ways than not, I think diversity is a myth.

 

[Coconut45]

Hmm...at my school, my experience is somewhat different. There are only 3 African-American (as my friend ignorantly labels us, "slave black") people in my class (myself being one.) The rest (5 or so) were either born in Africa or Haiti and seem to relate to eachother way more than us. Most of them are somewhat well off, so it's not really diversity in every sense--just more folks with money except browner. My school DEFINITELY pads their URM numbers in this department. I thought it was weird at first but I'm getting schooled to how strong the African diaspora is in Haiti. Either way, they study together, aren't especially warm to anyone else besides eachother and a few random white and Asian students. Myself and the other 2 African-Americans are just "cool" but we're definitely not road-dogs. Maybe it's because I'm MD/PhD and got pigeonholed a little.

 

[flaahless]

Hmm...at my school, my experience is somewhat different. There are only 3 African-American (as my friend ignorantly labels us, "slave black") people in my class (myself being one.) The rest (5 or so) were either born in Africa or Haiti and seem to relate to eachother way more than us. Most of them are somewhat well off, so it's not really diversity in every sense--just more folks with money except browner. My school DEFINITELY pads their URM numbers in this department. I thought it was weird at first but I'm getting schooled to how strong the African diaspora is in Haiti. Either way, they study together, aren't especially warm to anyone else besides eachother and a few random white and Asian students. Myself and the other 2 African-Americans are just "cool" but we're definitely not road-dogs. Maybe it's because I'm MD/PhD and got pigeonholed a little.

Yo, I've noticed that a lot, primarily in the medical field though. Two of my roommates are Nigerian and majoring in engineering, and we're really cool, but the Nigerian premeds tend to shy away from African Americans at my school, and other So Cal schools. I'm not quite sure why.

 

[RandomBlackManX]

Yo, I've noticed that a lot, primarily in the medical field though. Two of my roommates are Nigerian and majoring in engineering, and we're really cool, but the Nigerian premeds tend to shy away from African Americans at my school, and other So Cal schools. I'm not quite sure why.

Yeah, I've noticed that trend as well. It is what it is.

 

[arsenewenger]

Hmm...at my school, my experience is somewhat different. There are only 3 African-American (as my friend ignorantly labels us, "slave black") people in my class (myself being one.) The rest (5 or so) were either born in Africa or Haiti and seem to relate to eachother way more than us. Most of them are somewhat well off, so it's not really diversity in every sense--just more folks with money except browner. My school DEFINITELY pads their URM numbers in this department. I thought it was weird at first but I'm getting schooled to how strong the African diaspora is in Haiti. Either way, they study together, aren't especially warm to anyone else besides eachother and a few random white and Asian students. Myself and the other 2 African-Americans are just "cool" but we're definitely not road-dogs. Maybe it's because I'm MD/PhD and got pigeonholed a little.

Please sir,Don't bring Nigeria/nigerians into this issue.There are a lot of Nigerian MD/PHDs and they don't think they are better than everyone else because of that. You need to look inward and stop blaming Nigerians for you lack of people skills. I have a lot of Nigerian friends and they are some of the most wonderful people I have ever met.

 

[arsenewenger]

Yo, I've noticed that a lot, primarily in the medical field though. Two of my roommates are Nigerian and majoring in engineering, and we're really cool, but the Nigerian premeds tend to shy away from African Americans at my school, and other So Cal schools. I'm not quite sure why.

You've got to stop throwing the word "Nigerian Premeds" around; some people do not appreciate it. You are reading too much into the actions of a few people and as a college student you should know better.

 

[flaahless]

Please sir,Don't bring Nigeria/nigerians into this issue.There are a lot of Nigerian MD/PHDs and they don't think they are better than everyone else because of that. You need to look inward and stop blaming Nigerians for you lack of people skills. I have a lot of Nigerian friends and they are some of the most wonderful people I have ever met.

I'm the one that brought Nigerians into the picture so please direct your retort to me. I apologize if there was a misunderstanding, but I did not mean to insinuate that Nigerians look down on anyone, nor did I blame them for my lack of people skills. I have a lot of Nigerian friends also, however, many Nigerian premeds at my school, and other so cal schools, seem to distance themselves from African Americans. It was just an observation that I made, and I feel it is a bit unfortunate as I would really like to have a lot unity among people of color. Again, I apologize if my comment seemed like an attack on Nigerians, I didn't mean for it to be.

 

[Coconut45]

Please sir,Don't bring Nigeria/nigerians into this issue.There are a lot of Nigerian MD/PHDs and they don't think they are better than everyone else because of that. You need to look inward and stop blaming Nigerians for you lack of people skills. I have a lot of Nigerian friends and they are some of the most wonderful people I have ever met.

Yeah, so you're actually just way out of line. Insulting people and making comments about "people skills" would suggest that maybe I'm not the one with the problem relating to people. Your whole post just doesn't make sense, it's defensive and uncalled for. I'm stating fact about my school, I never made any judgements on any of it good or bad.

 

[arsenewenger]

Yeah, so you're actually just way out of line. Insulting people and making comments about "people skills" would suggest that maybe I'm not the one with the problem relating to people. Your whole post just doesn't make sense, it's defensive and uncalled for. I'm stating fact about my school, I never made any judgements on any of it good or bad.

I seeeeeee ......You are not the one having problems relating with people, the problem lies with those Africans/Haitians who are self sufficient, have a high self esteem and are not interested in making any unnecessary friendship with someone who blames everyone else for his own misfortune. Since you are a MD/PHD student, all Africans should, as a matter of fact, be falling over themselves to talk to you, the great messiah of the black race.


Good luck as you embark on a journey to solve one of world's greatest/formidable problems.

 

[flaahless]

I seeeeeee ......You are not the one having problems relating with people, the problem lies with those africans/Haitians who are self sufficient, have a high self esteem and are not interested in making any unnecessary friendship with someone who blames everyone else for his own misfortune. Since you are a MD/PHD students, all africans should, as a matter of fact, be falling over themselves to talk to you, the great messiah of the black race.


Good luck as you embark on a journey to solve one of world's greatest/formidable problems.

Hahaha dude. You are trippin for real. Relax, it's not that serious.

 

[riceman04]

Please sir,Don't bring Nigeria/nigerians into this issue.There are a lot of Nigerian MD/PHDs and they don't think they are better than everyone else because of that. You need to look inward and stop blaming Nigerians for you lack of people skills. I have a lot of Nigerian friends and they are some of the most wonderful people I have ever met.

That's interesting b/c I have made a similar observation...I guess I should look inward as well...huh?

 

[riceman04]

I seeeeeee ......You are not the one having problems relating with people, the problem lies with those africans/Haitians who are self sufficient, have a high self esteem and are not interested in making any unnecessary friendship with someone who blames everyone else for his own misfortune. Since you are a MD/PHD students, all africans should, as a matter of fact, be falling over themselves to talk to you, the great messiah of the black race.


Good luck as you embark on a journey to solve one of world's greatest/formidable problems.

I'm curious to know if you are of immediate African decent (black African I mean).

 

[Coconut45]

Well I guess one question I would pose for those of us in med school or on their way soon: how can we change this? I have gone to the URM events and think that I'm at least cordial with all the brown folks here, but maybe there is something to be said for creating solidarity if it doesn't seem to come naturally. The OP's situation is totally different, and I'm sure he's working on turning the situation around at his school too.

 

[Coconut45]

And by the way when I mentioned getting "pigeonholed" as an MD/PhD, I wasn't saying that I think we're an elite group, just that we tend to be a little more tight knit since we know the rest of our class is gonna split off at the end of M2 and hit the wards.

 

[RandomBlackManX]

I seeeeeee ......You are not the one having problems relating with people, the problem lies with those Africans/Haitians who are self sufficient, have a high self esteem and are not interested in making any unnecessary friendship with someone who blames everyone else for his own misfortune. Since you are a MD/PHD student, all Africans should, as a matter of fact, be falling over themselves to talk to you, the great messiah of the black race.


Good luck as you embark on a journey to solve one of world's greatest/formidable problems.

A little insecure are we? You need to chill out.

 

[da me ka don]

lol....yall need to chill out.
I am Nigerian and lemme say the whole Nigerian premed attitude might be quite right.

Growing up outside the U.S. in Africa or in the Islands is obviously different from growing up in the U.S. It is not what is on Discovery Channel. It is way different.

I know there is this unwritten tension between Africans and African Americans and I don't understand how it started.

My own story is that when I came and started college from Nigeria I was excited to hang out with other African Americans. However, I felt a little bit (should I call it insecure) or not so comfortable among African Americans, because they were more critical of me, and (in my own opinion) tended to look down on me.
The result?
I hung out with the kids at the African Student Assoc, instead of those in the ~ Sorority.
My other African friends who had been here longer however, were very comfortable switching between two worlds...(so to say).

If u went to public high school in an urban area for example, with an African accent, you were probably the butt of many high school jokes. And you either tried so hard to become "cool" or u hide in your shell and stay where u are comfortable. That experience might scar you for a long time.

From personal experience, I would say the AAs are less receiving and require an individual to conform to a certain standard before they accept that person with open arms.

I might also be biased.......

Africans might be worse....or are worse.

But after a while in the U.S., most of these my pre-conceived notions (from a few unpleasant experiences) are starting to slowly disappear(from more experience).

But I will most likely hang out with someone who will understand my jokes or me...than someone I have to act a certain way to be approved.

Sorry if I offend anyone, but I am just being honest.

 

[da me ka don]

and does arsenewenger need to take a cold shower?

 

[njbmd]

At my medical school, which is a HBCU, people tended to split into little groups during the first semester of first year. Our Dean arranged us alphabetically into work groups for most classes and guess what? Those little groups came down and we all melded as a class. We are still pretty close knit today. We realized that we all had the coursework in common and everyone just "grew up".

At first, I hung with the Jamaicans because my culture is largely Jamaican. After the first couple of weeks, I was "hanging" with everyone (including the Nigerians and the Canadians and the Latinos and the whites etc) because we realized that one day, we might need to send our patients to one of our classmates and we wanted them to be good.

Essentially, once you start medical school, you are no longer in competition with anyone except yourself. It is always in your best interest to be able to work professionally with everyone in your class and everyone around you. Your career will be dependent upon this. The "zero-sum" game just does not exist. Your career will hinge on first, your performance in your medical school courses and second, your performance on licensure board exam (USMLE and COMLEX). Meshing and working with your classmates cooperatively in addition to working on your own is the key.

Doctajay is quite right to be concerned about "real" diversity and what that means. In some ways, any of us who are minorities in the medical profession have to be able to work well with folks who are in the majority but we also have to have good fellowship among ourselves first. It does mean that sometimes we will be participating in activities that are for people of color like SNMA/NMA and sometimes we will be participating in things that are not specific for people of color but for people in medicine like the AMA.

In any event, there was a richness about attending a medical school with the great diversity that I experienced. When I entered residency, though my residency program was not diverse, I was able to have a great fellowship with the minority medical students and faculty. Without having such a rich and nurturing environment in medical school, I would not have realized the importance of this when I entered residency and thus I was stronger for having come from the environment of my school. I certainly fostered that and perpetuated that environment of fellowship for the medical students of color at UVa which enriched their experience too.

 

[litldime]

well i'm nigerian and i can say that it doesn't just relate to nigerian pre-meds.
Nigerian people are very proud and even within the different parts of the Nigiera, the view themselves superior to others. when i started college, i joined a nigerian student's group... if you weren't majoring in engineering or something medical, you were looked down upon. I moved away from this group slowly because i didn't want my college experience to be "little Nigeria." Since i had friends from different areas, i was looked down upon. And since I grew up here, I don't have strong Nigerian accent. I can put it on depending on who I am talking to or if I'm speaking my language. It then comes down to not being "Nigerian enough" or trying to be black American etc. It is really the same thing as ppl saying one isn't black enough or why are you trying to act white?
It also spans from parents. I've been at parties where someone's parents- mind you these are people I really don't know, have felt compelled to tell me not to date AA guys. And then they go into every stereotype under the sun.
The one thing I would say is that Nigerians take education very seriously and its on another level over there. It afforded me the opportunity to skip ahead 2 grades when I moved over here.

 

[riceman04]

I know there is this unwritten tension between Africans and African Americans and I don't understand how it started.

hahahaha...African Americans (i.e. black americans) generally have tense relations with everyone...LOL...I feel I can get away with saying that since I am a black american

here's a list:
blacks vs. whites
blacks vs. asians
blacks vs. latinos
blacks vs. africans
blacks vs. blacks...yikes

 

[njbmd]

The one thing that most people do not take into consideration is that medical school is the "ultimate" professional school. Like all other professional schools, you have the profession in common with your classmate regardless of ethnicity (yours and theirs). For example, in undergraduate, there is generally a huge difference in the knowledge base of a person who earns an "A" in a class and one who earns a "C+". In medical school, theses differences generally are quite small.

Medical school is very much like Marine boot camp in that you have to go over the wall. Some people clear that wall by feet (Honors) and some people scrape their rear-ends on the wall (Pass) but clear that wall and you are a Marine. This is why doing well in medical school is so vitally crucial and why you need to be able to do anything that benefits you professionally including getting along with and developing professional relationships with a diversity of people. You have to be willing to move out of your comfort zone and in some cases (reach out).

I know for sure that I helped loads of people in my school "clear that wall". I know that my notes for Physiology/Gross Anatomy/Biochemistry/Pharm/Pathology are still out there and being used even though it's been years since medical school for me. I knew that my organization skills were excellent and I put them to good use and to the benefit of others (black, white, yellow and brown). Why did I feel so strongly about doing this? Because I reaped the benefit of organizing the info and my future patients benefited by my classmates becoming some of the best physicians that I know.

Your differences with different ethnicities will begin to blur as you move further and further into medicine. You take on the "mantle" of the professional (and unless you are just plan stupid), you will want the very best for your patients and your colleagues. Sure, you had to "scramble" in pre-med to get the grades and master your work but in professional/medical school, you learn that you need to master the profession and be an excellent practitioner.

It doesn't do you any good to be the best medical student in the world if you can't go out there and practice medicine. The practice of medicine is not done as a "solo" performance. You will be part of a team and as a professional, you have to be able to make the team work to the benefit of your patients. You won't have any control over the composition of that team and as a minority (and the quarterback), you have to get the job done. If you learn to work in a diverse environment and see that the common goal is the care of the patient, then you win! This is quite the opposite of what most folks had to go through in order to get into medical school in the first place but once there, you are all starting out "dead even". It's how you finish that counts.

 

[LizBlackwellFan]

The one thing that most people do not take into consideration is that medical school is the "ultimate" professional school. Like all other professional schools, you have the profession in common with your classmate regardless of ethnicity (yours and theirs). For example, in undergraduate, there is generally a huge difference in the knowledge base of a person who earns an "A" in a class and one who earns a "C+". In medical school, theses differences generally are quite small.

Medical school is very much like Marine boot camp in that you have to go over the wall. Some people clear that wall by feet (Honors) and some people scrape their rear-ends on the wall (Pass) but clear that wall and you are a Marine. This is why doing well in medical school is so vitally crucial and why you need to be able to do anything that benefits you professionally including getting along with and developing professional relationships with a diversity of people. You have to be willing to move out of your comfort zone and in some cases (reach out).

I know for sure that I helped loads of people in my school "clear that wall". I know that my notes for Physiology/Gross Anatomy/Biochemistry/Pharm/Pathology are still out there and being used even though it's been years since medical school for me. I knew that my organization skills were excellent and I put them to good use and to the benefit of others (black, white, yellow and brown). Why did I feel so strongly about doing this? Because I reaped the benefit of organizing the info and my future patients benefited by my classmates becoming some of the best physicians that I know.

Your differences with different ethnicities will begin to blur as you move further and further into medicine. You take on the "mantle" of the professional (and unless you are just plan stupid), you will want the very best for your patients and your colleagues. Sure, you had to "scramble" in pre-med to get the grades and master your work but in professional/medical school, you learn that you need to master the profession and be an excellent practitioner.

It doesn't do you any good to be the best medical student in the world if you can't go out there and practice medicine. The practice of medicine is not done as a "solo" performance. You will be part of a team and as a professional, you have to be able to make the team work to the benefit of your patients. You won't have any control over the composition of that team and as a minority (and the quarterback), you have to get the job done. If you learn to work in a diverse environment and see that the common goal is the care of the patient, then you win! This is quite the opposite of what most folks had to go through in order to get into medical school in the first place but once there, you are all starting out "dead even". It's how you finish that counts.

Thanks for this, njbmd. I so appreciate your perspective, that the focus is on the work and the patients - not to mention bettering the practice of medicine as a whole.

 

[Miss Alyssa]

This has been on my mind for awhile, and I wanted to know what you all thought about this (if the topic isn't appropriate, we can move it.)

Medical schools really think diversity is important, and the majority of that diversity includes diversity in race: black, white, asian, etc. However, I wonder if the diversity is worth it when in class the races sit together; during lunch the races sit together; the study groups formed are basically formed according to race; etc, etc, etc. I know it can't just be my medical school that is like this. I mean, everyone is nice and to each other, and generally we help each other out, but when it comes down to what really matters: passing around past tests, socializing outside class, inviting classmates over for dinner....it usually is stratified according to race.

I have to be honest. I went to an all black school from K-8, then a mostly black school for high school, and an HBCU for college. By now, I really want to interact with more than people of my race; I want to branch out and experience my classmates culture and study styles, etc. But it seems like unless you force yourself on most folks, it just won't naturally happen.

So I state my question again. Is this diversity thing working when we just split again when class starts?

Maybe the bolded is your problem?
I went to a predominantly white k-12 and a predominantly white/asian undergrad. In the sciences black people make up less than 2%. I have no problems interacting with people who are not black. It could be because I've done so my whole life. You have to ask yourself, "on the first days of class, who was I more inclined to talk to?" In the first days of school everyone is fresh and new and open to conversation. What people do in those first days colours the rest of the semester or school year. On the flip side, as you've gone to predominantly black schools, it is possible that many of your class mates went to predominantly white schools. They may not know how to approach you as well.

Is diversity worth it? It sure is. I live in the most multicultural city in the world. None of my close friends from school have the same background as me. And it is quite nice. As much as I love Barbados, when I went back to study for a semester the homogeneity got to me. I didn't realize how much I valued diversity until I got back Toronto. Even if I do go to an HBCU medschool, those are still diverse, even in the black population. Africans are different from Caribbeans who are different from African Americans. And then when you add specifically what country you're from, where you grew up, and how you grew up: PLENTY DIVERSITY! I can't wait

About Nigerians That is all. Honestly, at my university I have more Nigerian friends than I do Caribbean friends. I've never had a problem talking to Africans or Caribbean people in general. I'm just going to put it out there: maybe the perceived hostility or mentality of superiority is not coming from said Nigerians/Africans, maybe it's from within you. Perhaps you feel insecure around them for whatever reason.

Lys

 

[freelove]

I was a little worried about making the transition from an HBCU to medical school. Though I went to a really diverse high school, I have discovered that life at an HBCU was just really... comfortable. It was like the one time in my life where the predominant culture of my environment was catered to me, if that makes any sense. Also, it increased my confidence because despite whatever statistics may say, I can honestly say the smartest, most talented, and dynamic people I know are black, though society and the media might lead us to think otherwise. Still, I thought it would be good for me to interact with a group of people more representative of the types of people that I would be working with so I intentionally did not apply to any HBCU medical schools, even though I am semi-regretting that decision now. If I'm going to a predominately white school just to isolate myself with people who look and act like me, let me just go to Howard then! I loved that school when I was there.

And about the whole Nigerian pre-med thing, its weird. I mean, it can't be denied, there are quite a few of them. My family is originally from Africa, (not from Nigeria), and I definitely do feel some amount of isolation when I hang out with a group of them. Not much, just some. I mean I'm proud to be African, but they're like extra EXTRA amped about their culture and themselves lol... But for the most part, they're cool peoples. There's a bad apple in every bunch, and you always find someone who will try to find some reason to look down on you or make you feel uncomfortable, generally just to cover up their own insecurity... that's just life. It happens.

 

[UVABranch]

I think we need to squash this whole Nigerian/African vs African American thing that's developing in this thread (and kinda getting off the OPs topic). You may know "nice" Nigerian/African people or "not nice" Nigerian/African people or "nice" African Americans or "not nice" African Americans. One of the biggest barriers to diversity is making blanket statements about one group (even if that is your experience) rather than welcoming of diverse people (weather age, sex, religion, culture, etc), and treating each new person without bias. That is what we will have to do as physicians even if we have had a prior bad experience or experiences.

My mom (a black woman) was robbed at gunpoint (car jacked) at a gas station by two black men. My dad was too in a seperate incidence...should I now think all black men are going to committ roberies? It's unfortunate that this happened, but we as a groups who are seeking genuine diversity need to look beyond our past experiences. Those people don't represent the whole, and even if they are the majority I'm still open to meeting/getting to know the minority who are not this way. You will find good and bad, welcoming and standoffish people in all groups, but if you can get past that previous experience you may just meet someone you like who disporovesthe generalizations.

In a venue like this one statements can be taken out of context and possibly offend people (even if that wasn't your intent). There are people with superiority complexes from all walks of life, so it is possible that a perception of such is correct....it is also possible that they're incorrect. Either way (much like relationships) only the people actually involved know what happened...so we can't discount their personal experience. Shoot, I know cool people and jerks across racial lines and the like. But that's not becasue of their race or culture, but because we didn't get along (independent of background). Maybe we can try to refrain from talking poorly about other groups considering many of us have probably been talked about poorly (note: refer to any AA thread) and it really doesn't solve anything and in my opinion only further serves to divide us.

just my $.02

can't we all just get along?

 

[UTDoc10]

And about the whole Nigerian pre-med thing, its weird. I mean, it can't be denied, there are quite a few of them. My family is originally from Africa, (not from Nigeria), and I definitely do feel some amount of isolation when I hang out with a group of them. Not much, just some. I mean I'm proud to be African, but they're like extra EXTRA amped about their culture and themselves lol... But for the most part, they're cool peoples. There's a bad apple in every bunch, and you always find someone who will try to find some reason to look down on you or make you feel uncomfortable, generally just to cover up their own insecurity... that's just life. It happens.

I second EVERYTHING u just said...but nonetheless, a few of them are some of my closest friends on campus.

 

[DocSinfonian]

Maybe the bolded is your problem?
I went to a predominantly white k-12 and a predominantly white/asian undergrad. In the sciences black people make up less than 2%. I have no problems interacting with people who are not black. It could be because I've done so my whole life. You have to ask yourself, "on the first days of class, who was I more inclined to talk to?" In the first days of school everyone is fresh and new and open to conversation. What people do in those first days colours the rest of the semester or school year. On the flip side, as you've gone to predominantly black schools, it is possible that many of your class mates went to predominantly white schools. They may not know how to approach you as well.

Is diversity worth it? It sure is. I live in the most multicultural city in the world. None of my close friends from school have the same background as me. And it is quite nice. As much as I love Barbados, when I went back to study for a semester the homogeneity got to me. I didn't realize how much I valued diversity until I got back Toronto. Even if I do go to an HBCU medschool, those are still diverse, even in the black population. Africans are different from Caribbeans who are different from African Americans. And then when you add specifically what country you're from, where you grew up, and how you grew up: PLENTY DIVERSITY! I can't wait

About Nigerians That is all. Honestly, at my university I have more Nigerian friends than I do Caribbean friends. I've never had a problem talking to Africans or Caribbean people in general. I'm just going to put it out there: maybe the perceived hostility or mentality of superiority is not coming from said Nigerians/Africans, maybe it's from within you. Perhaps you feel insecure around them for whatever reason.

Lys

Miss Alyssa has made a valuable point in her response concerning diversity within the Afro-Diasporic and African communities. Ironically, it was my experience as an HBCU undergraduate that made me aware of the distinct cultural, political, and social distinctions that exist amongst peoples of African descent. Prior to my matriculation at Howard, I viewed African Americans as a relatively monolithic group with a small company of outliers. That misconception was exploded within my first few days at the university. I was exposed to a healthy dose of what I, at that time, considered the "oxymorons": Black Republicans, Black atheists, Black affirmative action opponents, etc. Furthermore, I had a number of encounters with the unfortunate divisiveness that does exist between Afro-Americans, Afro-Carribeans, and native & 1st-generation Africans. However, in order to grow out of my naivete, I had to adopt a kit of social sensitivity and cultural awareness that I wouldn't have expected to be necessary at an HBCU. I offer that experience to say that, if anything, graduating from an HBCU has prepared me to approach all cultures with humility and objectivity. Admittedly, I do possess a proclivity to commune with other Black students. However, I also understand the perspicacity, the necessity even, of immediately interacting with my non-black classmates, and have little problem doing so (I say little because I tend to be shy naturally).

Dr. Beverly Tatum made an interesting argument for the segregative mentality of students in her book Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?. She comments that public school students of similar ethnic backgrounds gravitate towards each other because they are still developing their cultural identities. I would like to think that medical students are farther along in that process than grade-school students, and thereby cannot rely on that reasoning. In either case, the classroom is only a microcosm of the society that it attempts to enlighten. I'm afraid to say, DoctaJay, that the process of genuine diversification may be a long and painstaking one, but I do believe that medical school administrators and students are getting the idea. Strides have been made and progress is apparent in many cases.

Peace and encouragement!

P.S. In reference to the Second Look conflict, I believe that UVA and its SNMA chapter do a good job of integration. The Second Look Visit for the entire entering class is a structured component of the SNMA's Second Look Weekend event. That way, invaluable interaction with future classmates, URM's or not, is not denied.

 

[Dimness]

UK, class of 2011

We've got everybody except Hispanics and Native Americans. Stangely enough, you can almost say the same for undergrad here at Kentucky. Otherwise, we've got quite a diverse class. Anybody else have this same makeup?

 

[da me ka don]

P.S. In reference to the Second Look conflict, I believe that UVA and its SNMA chapter do a good job of integration. The Second Look Visit for the entire entering class is a structured component of the SNMA's Second Look Weekend event. That way, invaluable interaction with future classmates, URM's or not, is not denied.

Okay I take what I said back. I am going to both. The UVA program of events is very integrated like you said, and there is free housing

 

[curious lately]

Any advice on how to make friends of different races at predominantly white schools without alienating your Black ones? For example, if you hang out with Black people in the very beginning, are other students somewhat intimidated to associate with you in med school? I know that was sort of the case in undergrad. Now, I would really just like to study and socialize with a mix of people and not just see diversity in the classroom.

It seems like having a diverse set of friends is something that is easier to do at an HBCU simply because it is so diverse and presumably the non-Black students are more open to getting to know the Black students. Has anyone found that to be the case? In any event, I definitely see the appeal of both types of schools and I am torn between them.