Is the DNP a real threat, or a paper tiger?

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Ha, you got me! I haven't read your whole blog. But it was near the top of my "to do" list! Right after ingesting large quantities of arsenic and stabbing myself to death.

Look, your comments sure seemed to betrayed an anti-NP bias. Do you actually have one? Maybe not. I don't know you personally but that was the impression I got from the limited information I had available.


It's okay, most of us are so ready to attack at the slightest hint of a criticism, without realizing, that those criticisms, and working together to address them, will only improve us both as clinicians.

BTW, I am preparing to do a groundbreaking MOTHER of all studies on CE in the ED setting, and our ACNP will be part of it.

Michael Halasy, PA-C

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this is whole lot about nothing. the public at large has no idea about these turf battles. public opinion has not changed and will not change. when my grandmother asks for the doctor, she doesn't mean the nurse. no self respecting DNP will ever call him/her self Dr. Imagine being asked which medical school you went to and you reply oh no I went to nursing school. its just too funny/sad/pathetic.
 
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Back to my original point. DNPs, PAs : I'm glad to see you guys have joined my thread. I'm sorry about the hostile reception from some posters, if you want, I'll report them to the mods.

My original point is simple. If I spend the years (4 years medical school, 5-7 years residency) to become a specialist who is a technical expert in for a particular organ system, you guys won't try to take my job, right? If I became a heart surgeon, I'm not going to hear about DNP or PA heart surgeons, am I? Or a radiation oncologist, or a radiologist, or even an Ob/Gyn....

I don't see how you could, even if you wanted to. Heart/brain/ENT/plastic/urological/general surgery is supposed to be pretty friggin' hard. Attendings can do incredibly complicated, stressful, and dangerous things that took years to master. No matter how things change, unless the DNP or PA curriculum is made 10 years long, and just as rigorous as medical training, you guys won't be trying to do that job, right? I mean, no one would give you O.R. privileges or insurance or pay for the case even if you somehow got the legal authority to do surgery, right?

That's my point. If I became a family practice doc, and I'm a jack of all trades and a master of none, I would fully expect to see DNPs and PAs doing nearly everything I could do except perhaps treating complex, multi-disorder patients.

I'm going to keep all this in mind during medical school so that I can choose my specialty accordingly. I'm not going to rely on some lobbyists like AMA to pressure Congress into passing laws against DNPs/PAs taking my job : I'll get a job that it is essentially impossible for them to take.
 
My original point is simple. If I spend the years (4 years medical school, 5-7 years residency) to become a specialist who is a technical expert in for a particular organ system, you guys won't try to take my job, right? If I became a heart surgeon, I'm not going to hear about DNP or PA heart surgeons, am I? Or a radiation oncologist, or a radiologist, or even an Ob/Gyn....

I don't see how you could, even if you wanted to. Heart/brain/ENT/plastic/urological/general surgery is supposed to be pretty friggin' hard. Attendings can do incredibly complicated, stressful, and dangerous things that took years to master. No matter how things change, unless the DNP or PA curriculum is made 10 years long, and just as rigorous as medical training, you guys won't be trying to do that job, right? I mean, no one would give you O.R. privileges or insurance or pay for the case even if you somehow got the legal authority to do surgery, right?

You make a very important assumption -- that DNP's are content with primary care. They are not. The lifestyle and money is much greater in the specialties. Primary care would be just a stepping stone to the specialties. Once firmly established in primary care, what's to stop nursing from creating their own residencies in derm, GI, cards, etc? Nothing.

Sound far-fetched? Read these articles about how the Louisiana Board of Nursing unilaterally decided that CRNA's could practice medicine.


Keep in mind that the CRNA's trained for only two weekends and declared themselves equal to fellowship trained pain medicine specialists. Fortunately, this issue is resolved because the Louisiana Supreme Court has permanently barred CRNA's from doing pain medicine.

Louisiana Court Considers Whether Interventional Pain Management Is Within the Traditional Scope of Practice of a Nurse Anesthetist

Parties to the Louisiana lawsuit Spine Diagnostics Center of Baton Rouge, Inc., versus Louisiana State Board of Nursing returned to court in November to address several unresolved issues. Plaintiffs sought a declaratory judgment that the nursing board's 2005 advisory opinion, which is the subject of the lawsuit, substantively expanded the scope of practice of a nurse anesthetist into an area where they have not traditionally practiced (i.e., chronic or interventional pain management). Additionally, the court had been asked to declare that the practice of interventional pain management is solely the practice of medicine. Lastly, Spine Diagnostics returned to court in order to seek a permanent injunction prohibiting the nursing board from enforcing the advisory opinion. The appellate court had previously ordered a preliminary injunction prohibiting the nursing board from enforcing the advisory opinion and prohibiting the nurse anesthetist who sought the opinion from performing such procedures. In connection with the permanent injunction, the nursing board would be required to remove the advisory opinion from the nursing board's Web site and publish the trial court's opinion on the Web site.

On January 10, 2008, the court issued its ruling, which provides the following, among other things:

• The practice of interventional pain management is not the scope of practice of a nurse anesthetist.

• The practice of interventional pain management is solely the practice of medicine.

• The advisory opinion issued by the nursing board is an effort to substantively expand nurse anesthetist scope of practice and is an improper attempt at rule making.

• A permanent injunction issue prohibiting the nursing board from enforcing the statement.

Chronic pain management is not within the traditional scope of practice of a nurse anesthetist
To establish the above assertion, Spine Diagnostics began by distinguishing chronic pain procedures from acute pain. The plaintiffs argued that the treatment of chronic pain involves the administration of steroids, analgesics and anesthetics with a minute margin of error. Conversely, the treatment of acute pain maintains a larger margin of error and consists primarily of the administration of anesthetics on a larger scale in a surgical or operating room setting. Testimony discussed the complexity of each pain procedure and use of fluoroscopy when performing chronic pain management. Additionally, Spine Diagnostics emphasized the diagnostic element of chronic pain management. The pain physician must assess and diagnose the patient and will often perform a different pain management procedure than prescribed by the referring physician. A pain physician must also recognize potential complications. Lastly, testimony addressed complications associated with chronic pain management procedures, such as infections, bleeding, arterial damage, nerve damage, paralysis, brainstem injury and death.

Furthermore, the plaintiffs analyzed Louisiana law to establish that chronic pain management is not within nurse anesthetist traditional scope of practice. The Louisiana Nurse Practice Act provides that the "practice of nursing... shall not be deemed to include acts of medical diagnoses or medical prescriptions of therapeutic or corrective nature." Therefore, nurse anesthetists who are subject to the Louisiana Nurse Practice Act are prohibited from performing a medical diagnosis, which is required for the administration of chronic pain management procedures.
Lastly, Spine Diagnostics dismissed each element that is required to establish traditional scope of practice: a) history of nurse anesthetist scope of practice; b) sufficient education and training; c) supporting evidence; and d) an appropriate regulatory environment.

Absence of history: Plaintiffs contended that there is an absence of history of nurse anesthetists performing pain management procedures. According to testimony of representatives of the nursing board, they were not aware of any nurse anesthetists who performed such procedures until a nurse anesthetist requested an advisory opinion on this issue. Moreover, deposition testimony from the American Association of Nurse Anesthetists indicated that few nurse anesthetists nationally practice chronic pain management procedures.

Insufficient education and training to perform chronic pain management procedures: First, the plaintiffs emphasized the differences in education between nurse anesthetists and physicians. Second, Spine Diagnostics offered into evidence nurse anesthetist course curricula to establish that the nurses do not receive education in the specific procedures performed in chronic interventional pain management and compared pain certification requirements of physicians and nurses. Spine Diagnostics argued that the certification examination required of physicians exclusively tests the applicants' knowledge of pain management as opposed to the nurses' examination, which does not contain extensive questioning concerning pain management. Regarding training, plaintiffs asserted that the curricula of two weekend courses fail to demonstrate sufficient training in the field of chronic pain management procedures and offered testimony regarding the lack of requirements the profession imposes on itself to perform pain management procedures.

Lack of supporting evidence: Spine Diagnostics argued that overwhelming evidence supports their position that chronic pain management procedures are not within traditional scope of practice of nurse anesthetists. Plaintiffs supported this assertion by referencing 1) three studies that demonstrated patient safety concerns1; 2) a case involving a nurse anesthetist who performed a chronic pain management procedure, without physician oversight, which resulted in paralysis of the patient; and 3) reimbursement issues. The plaintiff's position was that the challenges the nurses have experienced in obtaining reimbursement for chronic pain management procedures (by Medicare and private insurers) suggested that such procedures are not within their traditional scope of practice.

Inappropriate regulatory environment: Lastly, testimony from a representative of the nursing board indicated that the nursing board does not have a mechanism to regulate nurse anesthetists' performance of chronic pain procedures unless a complaint is filed and that the nursing board presumed the supervising physician and hospital (via credentialing procedures) would regulate the nurses.

In conclusion, Spine Diagnostics emphasized the complexity of chronic pain management and that nurse anesthetists are not authorized per Louisiana law to make a medical diagnosis, which is an essential component to performing such procedures. The plaintiffs also refuted the elements required to establish what constitutes traditional scope of practice. The Louisiana Society of Anesthesiologists and ASA continue to monitor whether this decision will be appealed.​
 
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Thanks for the info Taurus.

Primary care would be just a stepping stone to the specialties.

Exactly. Once they get the foot in the door, it's over. They'll never be content and history proves this. Give an inch take a mile.....
 
You make a very important assumption -- that DNP's are content with primary care. They are not. The lifestyle and money is much greater in the specialties. Primary care would be just a stepping stone to the specialties. Once firmly established in primary care, what's to stop nursing from creating their own residencies in derm, GI, cards, etc? Nothing.

Taurus,

I would be more worried about PAs taking the job of physicians or competing for their jobs more than NPs or DNPs.

According to the posts made by PAs, it sounds like they have a lot of autonomy with superficial physician supervision (I think one wrote something along the lines of, "a physician can be hundreds of miles away, and I have a high high autonomy and we have no physician around here most of the time and I'm in charge and I supervise others")

Now PA has 2 doctorate degree (DSc of physician assistant) program (2nd one coming soon according to a PA).

What's to stop the PA from making a doctorate degree a requirement in the near future?

Patients will be confused when they say, "Hi, I'm Doctor John, and I'm a doctor of physician assistant".
They will say, "so... if you a doctor of physician assistant, are you the physician supervising them?"

PAs are the ones saying that they can do 85% to 90% what a physician can do.

You don't see nurse practitioners going around saying that they're almost like or equal (or better than) to physicians (Yes, there was that one DNP founder who said that. Are you judging the entire members of the profession based on one individual?).
None of the NPs that I know think that they're on equal par with the physicians.
They know that the physicians have a lot more in depth knowledge and clinical training.
The health care professionals respects one another and work together.

Let's say that a department needs 5 physicians.
They may just hire one and 4 physician assistants.
 
I would be more worried about PAs taking the job of physicians or competing for their jobs more than NPs or DNPs.

Not me.

You yourself envisioned PAs assisting DNPs as if DNPs were independent attending physicians, earlier in this very thread.

PAs are also valuable members of the health care team. I can't imagine a hospital running properly without them. They assist MD/DO/(& hopefully DNP in the future) run things in the clinic smoothly.

I wonder what the PAs here would think about that? Do you really think they would ever willingly report to you as if you were a real doctor?

Because you are not, you know. A real doctor, that is. Nor will you ever be.
 
Not me.
I wonder what the PAs here would think about that? Do you really think they would ever willingly report to you as if you were a real doctor?

.

Won't ever happen and if it did I would quit first. and if it happened everywhere I would go back to being a medic or work overseas as a pa....
 
Taurus : actually, it sounds pretty far fetched.

You're talking about the board of nursing deciding that nurse anesthetists scope of practice extended to chronic pain management and various injections. It's a procedure, but generally nowhere near as invasive as even endovascular balloons and stenting, much less surgery.

And I'm saying that even if that does happen (DNPs/PAs get the legal authorization to do surgery), DNPs/PAs are not going to be doing the dangerous procedures very often for practical reasons such as O.R. access, liability, and payment. And, of course, in your example the Louisiana courts quickly slapped down the Board of Nursing and reserved that power for the Board of Medicine. One would assume a similar blockade would exist in any other state.
 
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Not me.

You yourself envisioned PAs assisting DNPs as if DNPs were independent attending physicians, earlier in this very thread.



I wonder what the PAs here would think about that? Do you really think they would ever willingly report to you as if you were a real doctor?

Because you are not, you know. A real doctor, that is. Nor will you ever be.

A real doctor?

I wrote previously that I was merely being hopeful, and I regret saying some of the sensitive things that may have offended PAs.
 
Taurus,

I would be more worried about PAs taking the job of physicians or competing for their jobs more than NPs or DNPs.

According to the posts made by PAs, it sounds like they have a lot of autonomy with superficial physician supervision (I think one wrote something along the lines of, "a physician can be hundreds of miles away, and I have a high high autonomy and we have no physician around here most of the time and I'm in charge and I supervise others")

Now PA has 2 doctorate degree (DSc of physician assistant) program (2nd one coming soon according to a PA).

What's to stop the PA from making a doctorate degree a requirement in the near future?

Patients will be confused when they say, "Hi, I'm Doctor John, and I'm a doctor of physician assistant".
They will say, "so... if you a doctor of physician assistant, are you the physician supervising them?"

PAs are the ones saying that they can do 85% to 90% what a physician can do.

You don't see nurse practitioners going around saying that they're almost like or equal (or better than) to physicians (Yes, there was that one DNP founder who said that. Are you judging the entire members of the profession based on one individual?).
None of the NPs that I know think that they're on equal par with the physicians.
They know that the physicians have a lot more in depth knowledge and clinical training.
The health care professionals respects one another and work together.

Let's say that a department needs 5 physicians.
They may just hire one and 4 physician assistants.


Autonomy does not equal independence.

It is different. PA's from day one, and continuing to this day have stated that we are DEPENDENT practitioners. We may practice with a high degree of autonomy, but we are regulated by the medical board, must practice with a supervisory agreement with a physician, and must at all times have one of the supervising physicians, even an alternate, listed on our supervisory agreement be available, even if only by phone.

This is quite a bit different than NP's who have pushed, and continue to push for independent practice.

It is not the same thing.

As to the 85%. That has been interpreted incorrectly for years. The initial study btw, was done over 2 decades ago, and showed that based on RVU's, a PA could see and accomplish 84% of the work done by a typical physician.

As far as the doctoral degree, well we just had a clinical doctorate summit for the PA profession, and had a number of stakeholders, including physicians, and nurses-including my friend Polly Bednash. The results of the summit were that OPTIONAL doctoral level education, including doctoral degrees tied to residencies were something to look into, but that the profession was OPPOSED to making a doctoral degree the ENTRY level degree for the profession.
 
Taurus : actually, it sounds pretty far fetched.

You're talking about the board of nursing deciding that nurse anesthetists scope of practice extended to chronic pain management and various injections. It's a procedure, but generally nowhere near as invasive as even endovascular balloons and stenting, much less surgery.

This is why you're an MS0. You have much to learn. Interventional pain medicine is not a procedure; it is a specialty just like any other like cardiology, GI, etc.

These procedures are not harmless. Read that article again. Interventional pain procedures can cause significant harm if not properly done. Would you trust someone who only went through two weekend courses to stick your spine with needles?

The pain physician must assess and diagnose the patient and will often perform a different pain management procedure than prescribed by the referring physician. A pain physician must also recognize potential complications. Lastly, testimony addressed complications associated with chronic pain management procedures, such as infections, bleeding, arterial damage, nerve damage, paralysis, brainstem injury and death.

...Regarding training, plaintiffs asserted that the curricula of two weekend courses fail to demonstrate sufficient training in the field of chronic pain management procedures...

...a case involving a nurse anesthetist who performed a chronic pain management procedure, without physician oversight, which resulted in paralysis of the patient;...​
 
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You don't see nurse practitioners going around saying that they're almost like or equal (or better than) to physicians (Yes, there was that one DNP founder who said that. Are you judging the entire members of the profession based on one individual?).

:laugh: I can tell you that from all my readings and interactions with NP's and PA's that NP's are ones who like to claim that they are equivalent to physicians. I'll support my assertion with the following:


AAFP to NBME: Don't Renege on 'Dr. Nurse' Exam Promise

In his letter, Epperly pointed to a statement posted on the ABCC Web site [DNP organization] regarding the 50 percent pass rate for the first cohort of candidates who took the examination. The statement says that the exam "was comparable in content, similar in format and measured the same set of competencies and applied similar performance standards as Step 3 of the United States Medical Licensing Examination, which is administered to physicians as one component of qualifying for licensure."

In fact, Epperly said in the letter, the examination "does not test the same set of competencies. Further, if the CACC examination uses a lower 'pass' score than is applied to the USMLE Step 3, the CACC examination does not apply a similar performance standard."

"We think the CACC's recent actions both mislead the public and raise substantial patient safety concerns," Epperly said in the letter.

Epperly referred to a September 2008 meeting with the NBME that he attended with other Academy leaders and with representatives from the AMA, the American College of Osteopathic Family Physicians and the American Osteopathic Association.

He said that at that time, the NBME agreed to request from the CACC an attestation statement for any person taking the certification exam. The attestation statement would make clear that the DNP certification exam is not equivalent to the process involved in physician certification.

Please tell me why the DNP's are misleading the public by claiming that their watered-down exam is equivalent to the USMLE 3? Why did the DNP's lie to the NBME? I don't see PA's doing any of this underhandedness.

Keep playing stupid about the DNP and I'll keep posting damning links which undermine your claims. Let's be honest, the DNP is nothing more than blind political ambition by the nurses to take over medicine. My purpose is nothing more than to expose you guys for what you are.
 
:laugh: I can tell you that from all my readings and interactions with NP's and PA's that NP's are ones who like to claim that they are equivalent to physicians. I'll support my assertion with the following:

AAFP to NBME: Don't Renege on 'Dr. Nurse' Exam Promise

In his letter, Epperly pointed to a statement posted on the ABCC Web site [DNP organization] regarding the 50 percent pass rate for the first cohort of candidates who took the examination. The statement says that the exam "was comparable in content, similar in format and measured the same set of competencies and applied similar performance standards as Step 3 of the United States Medical Licensing Examination, which is administered to physicians as one component of qualifying for licensure."

In fact, Epperly said in the letter, the examination "does not test the same set of competencies. Further, if the CACC examination uses a lower 'pass' score than is applied to the USMLE Step 3, the CACC examination does not apply a similar performance standard."

"We think the CACC's recent actions both mislead the public and raise substantial patient safety concerns," Epperly said in the letter.

Epperly referred to a September 2008 meeting with the NBME that he attended with other Academy leaders and with representatives from the AMA, the American College of Osteopathic Family Physicians and the American Osteopathic Association.

He said that at that time, the NBME agreed to request from the CACC an attestation statement for any person taking the certification exam. The attestation statement would make clear that the DNP certification exam is not equivalent to the process involved in physician certification.
Please tell me why the DNP's are misleading the public by claiming that their watered-down exam is equivalent to the USMLE 3? Why did the DNP's lie to the NBME? I don't see PA's doing any of this underhandedness.

Keep playing stupid about the DNP and I'll keep posting damning links which undermine your claims. Let's be honest, the DNP is nothing more than blind political ambition by the nurses to take over medicine. My purpose is nothing more than to expose you guys for what you are.

Taurus,

I've seen those same articles numerous time in this forum.
What a selective few says about the profession does not represent majority of the members of the profession.

Yes, DNP/NP are mid level practitioners. We're here to help out the physicians.
I'm all for expanding the knowledge and clinical skills of DNP/NP to be a better mid level practitioner... not to take over a physician's job.
It'll never happen like you've said. Don't worry about it.

You guys are blinded by the hate for DNPs that you'll never know what hit you when PAs start taking your jobs.

How are physicians going to go against PA if or when they have expanded their scope of practice since they are both practicing medicine?

With a very high level of autonomy that a PA has and with near 90% of knowledge and skills that they claim to have, who's not to say that PAs will not take over a department with just one or two supervising physicians (or even one superficial supervising physician) to save money (taking the potential jobs of many physicians that can work in a department)?
 
Taurus,

I've seen those same articles numerous time in this forum.
What a selective few says about the profession does not represent majority of the members of the profession.

Yes, DNP/NP are mid level practitioners. We're here to help out the physicians.
I'm all for expanding the knowledge and clinical skills of DNP/NP to be a better mid level practitioner... not to take over a physician's job.
It'll never happen like you've said. Don't worry about it.

You guys are blinded by the hate for DNPs that you'll never know what hit you when PAs start taking your jobs.

How are physicians going to go against PA if or when they have expanded their scope of practice since they are both practicing medicine?

With a very high level of autonomy that a PA has and with near 90% of knowledge and skills that they claim to have, who's not to say that PAs will not take over a department with just one or two supervising physicians (or even one superficial supervising physician) to save money (taking the potential jobs of many physicians that can work in a department)?

Garbage. As a future physician, I will hire PA's over NP's any day. On top of that, I would NEVER hire a DNP.

I find your user name inflammatory, consider changing it. DNP"Doctor"
 
Garbage. As a future physician, I will hire PA's over NP's any day. On top of that, I would NEVER hire a DNP.

I find your user name inflammatory, consider changing it. DNP"Doctor"

Good for you sir.
If you have your own clinic and are the one in charge of hiring, please do whatever you want.

If a family physician doesn't want to hire a np, that's fine.
Np can just open his or her own.

I'm done with this thread.
 
Good for you sir.
If you have your own clinic and are the one in charge of hiring, please do whatever you want.

If a family physician doesn't want to hire a np, that's fine.
Np can just open his or her own.

I'm done with this thread.

Yes, the NP can open his/her own clinic. But I'll make sure my clinic puts his/her's out of business. Who is going to see the NP when the Doctor is across the street? :laugh:

Goodbye, Nurse "Doctor."

P.S. If you really want to be called Doctor, you should take USMLE's Step 1, 2, and 3, not just some watered down optional version of Step 3.
 
Yes, the NP can open his/her own clinic. But I'll make sure my clinic puts his/her's out of business. Who is going to see the NP when the Doctor is across the street? :laugh:

Goodbye, Nurse "Doctor."

P.S. If you really want to be called Doctor, you should take USMLE's Step 1, 2, and 3, not just some watered down optional version of Step 3.

I guess we'll have to hire a medical doctor or partner up with one then to defeat the competition :laugh:

Goodbye, medical "Doctor."
 
You have to work thousands of hours through nursing school and nursing experience in certain clinical setting like ER, ICU before being eligible to apply for NP/DNP. You get to learn a lot through experience, working with the physicians and patients.


This is not a standard. There are now direct-entry DNP programs for people with non-nursing bachelor's to become a DNP-NP in around three years. See Case Western Reserve's Graduate Entry DNP Program. Just 39 months to go from a non-nurse to an independently practicing DNP, with exactly zero hours of experience as an RN required. University of Washington recently added a graduate/direct entry DNP program as well.

Hard to really claim the many hours of work experience as an RN as some kind of added qualification in the education of an NP when these accelerated direct-entry MSN and DNP programs are the fastest growing format of graduate nursing eduation right now.
 
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This is why you have no business partaking in this thread.
Ha! Please lay out your credentials for us, oh wise one. It's clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Looking at internet articles is not the same as being out there and talking to real NPs and DNPs. Which I have done and I am telling you, none of them want to be or believe they are the equal of cardiologists or neurosurgeon or whatever specialty. They are nurses with advanced training and capable of taking on greater responsibility and autonomy.

Typical pre-med or med student. All you know is a little theory but not much of the real world. Where did this self-righteous attitude come from? You certainly haven't earned it.

Finally, what is this "give an inch, take a mile" crap? That is not looking out for patient care. If you concede a NP can do many primary care procedures well, and for less money, then they ought to be allowed to assist with that function. Sounds like the only thing you are concerned with is maintaining physicians' monopoly.
 
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Garbage. As a future physician, I will hire PA's over NP's any day. On top of that, I would NEVER hire a DNP.

I find your user name inflammatory, consider changing it. DNP"Doctor"
And who are you to be impugning other's doctorate degrees? Please, explain to me how physicians' came to own the word doctor? Because I am pretty sure they don't.

You have the same problem as most of the other jerks in here. So impressed with yourself when, in reality, you haven't accomplished anything yet!
 
Which I have done and I am telling you, none of them want to be or believe they are the equal of cardiologists or neurosurgeon or whatever specialty. They are nurses with advanced training and capable of taking on greater responsibility and autonomy.

I must say I agree with you. I've worked along side an entire group of NPs and none of them ever tried to insinuate that they were a physician. I do believe the majority of them don't care to push the boundaries either. The problem lies with people such as Mary Mundinger who claim to be innovative by creating new crap degrees in an attempt to close the gap with physicians. She has already had a significant impact.....and not for the better.

One thing I don't understand is why she hasn't been dethrowned. If the majority of NPs are content why would they let her continue to create unwarranted controversy? I suppose part of the issue falls on the NPs who haven't spoken out against this. Two of the NPs I've worked with stated that they are very content with where they fit in the system. I know these two particular NPs wouldn't associate with Mundinger...

Finally, what is this "give an inch, take a mile" crap?

I was referring to opening the door for DNPs to practice in Primary Care and how that will inevitably lead to specialization. Remember when NPs were first granted and they had to fight to prescribe? At first they were very limited but now they can prescribe drugs way out of their jurisdiction. It would be reasonable to expect a similar situation with DNPs. "We just want to help with the primary care shortage." 5 years later we'll see them lobbying for specializations in pretty much every catagory.
 
Typical pre-med or med student. All you know is a little theory but not much of the real world. Where did this self-righteous attitude come from? You certainly haven't earned it.

And to whom do you keep referring that believes the DNP is the equivalent to the MD?

I apologize if I appeared self-righteous by quoting you. But I found it hard to not consider you a troll by that statement. I mean that's basically the foundation of this entire argument.

Your posts are just as attacking as others on here. If anything you're being a hypocrite by slamming others in the same manner and then calling them out for doing so.
 
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What a selective few says about the profession does not represent majority of the members of the profession.

Yes, DNP/NP are mid level practitioners. We're here to help out the physicians.
I'm all for expanding the knowledge and clinical skills of DNP/NP to be a better mid level practitioner... not to take over a physician's job.
It'll never happen like you've said. Don't worry about it.

Like I have said in other threads, I am not here to personally attack anyone. I'm sure you're fine person and would be fun to have a beer with. My goal is to raise awareness of what DNP organizations are attempting to do. It makes no difference to me or to any of the other physicians on here if you disagree with the goals of these DNP organizations to expand scope. If these DNP organizations succeed in tricking the public and politicians that DNP = MD, then you and everyone of your DNP friends will personally benefit to the detriment of public safety. If you disagree, then you need to lobby these DNP organizations to cease and desist. Otherwise, I will continue to raise awareness of the propaganda, lies, lobbying by NP organizations.

With a very high level of autonomy that a PA has and with near 90% of knowledge and skills that they claim to have, who's not to say that PAs will not take over a department with just one or two supervising physicians (or even one superficial supervising physician) to save money (taking the potential jobs of many physicians that can work in a department)?

What would be the difference between PA's who gain autonomy and NP's right now? Not much at all. PA's are regulated by the boards of medicine while the NP's are regulated by boards of nursing. At least, PA's admit that they are practicing medicine instead of NP's who lie to your face and say they are practicing "advanced nursing". NP's are full of bs and everyone knows it. Actually, I would have less issue with autonomous PA's than I do with autonomous NP's. If PA's gain autonomy, you will see a wholesale shift of wannabe NP's to being PA's because

1) PA's have better training
2) PA school is still 2 years right now
 
And who are you to be impugning other's doctorate degrees? Please, explain to me how physicians' came to own the word doctor? Because I am pretty sure they don't.

In the clinical setting, the term doctor implies a certain standard of credentials... of which DNP's lack. If you are all about deceiving patient's then I can see why you would make a statement like this. It is pure deception. The lay public comes to a hospital/clinic expecting that a "doctor" is one who went to medical school and residency, not an NP who did some fluff online courses (and fail a diluted step 3) to get her/his doctorate.

You have the same problem as most of the other jerks in here. So impressed with yourself when, in reality, you haven't accomplished anything yet!

The difference between me and future DNP's is the fact that I will have accomplished getting a real doctorate. Not a fluff doctorate. Online courses about nursing theory and butterflies.... right. I want to be a doctor, so I am going to medical school. If I wanted to be a nurse, I would've gone to nursing school. DNP makes absolutely no sense.

BTW, I would like to add that I don't have a problem with NP's. It is just my personal preference to work with PA's rather than NP's.
 
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I apologize if I appeared self-righteous by quoting you. But I found it hard to not consider you a troll by that statement. I mean that's basically the foundation of this entire argument.

Your posts are just as attacking as others on here. If anything you're being a hypocrite by slamming others in the same manner and then calling them out for doing so.
I didn't start this. When I got here you all were having a lot of fun at nurses' expense. Since most of you are future physicians, and physicians seem to have an inherent antipathy towards nurses already, I wanted to get in here and make some noise.

You all are really privileged to be where you are. Not everyone has the same opportunities in life. There are a lot of insinuations that nurses are nurses simply because they are not smart or disciplined enough to become physicians. First of all, this is not necessarily true. There are many factors which may motivate one to become a nurse and not all of them are because that person is incapable of practicing medicine. And second, even if a particular nurse could not get into med school, that does not make her dumb or incapable of assuming greater responsibility and duties with increased education and training. It takes a lot of people in this world to make it run. I think you all ought to beware disparaging an entire group of people you will work with for the rest of your lives. Especially when you all aren't physicians yet or some of you aren't even in med school. Nurses know a lot more than you and have a lot they can teach you.

I am not trying to be a troll, but I certainly am being aggressive because I am taking on some pretty well ingrained attitudes in the medical community. I think you can see in the other thread that I am capable of having a civil conversation with you all.
 
You all are really privileged to be where you are. Not everyone has the same opportunities in life. There are a lot of insinuations that nurses are nurses simply because they are not smart or disciplined enough to become physicians. First of all, this is not necessarily true. There are many factors which may motivate one to become a nurse and not all of them are because that person is incapable of practicing medicine. And second, even if a particular nurse could not get into med school, that does not make her dumb or incapable of assuming greater responsibility and duties with increased education and training. It takes a lot of people in this world to make it run. I think you all ought to beware disparaging an entire group of people you will work with for the rest of your lives. Especially when you all aren't physicians yet or some of you aren't even in med school. Nurses know a lot more than you and have a lot they can teach you.

I agree with what you have to say. Nurses are great, RNs and NPs. The DNP is what we are all against. It is politics and about trying to insinuate that you are something that you are not.

I am not trying to be a troll, but I certainly am being aggressive because I am taking on some pretty well ingrained attitudes in the medical community. I think you can see in the other thread that I am capable of having a civil conversation with you all.

The reason for all this opposition against the DNP is because they are stepping on the toes of physicians. You can only push a profession so hard until they bite back. The DNP degree is over the line and completely uncalled for. All it does is undermine physicians. You may think it doesn't, but this is the prevailing atitude amongst medical students, residents, and practicing physicians.
 
In the clinical setting, the term doctor implies a certain standard of credentials... of which DNP's lack. If you are all about deceiving patient's then I can see why you would make a statement like this. It is pure deception. The lay public comes to a hospital/clinic expecting that a "doctor" is one who went to medical school and residency, not an NP who did some fluff online courses (and fail a diluted step 3) to get her/his doctorate.



The difference between me and future DNP's is the fact that I will have accomplished getting a real doctorate. Not a fluff doctorate. Online courses about nursing theory and butterflies.... right. I want to be a doctor, so I am going to medical school. If I wanted to be a nurse, I would've gone to nursing school. DNP makes absolutely no sense.

BTW, I would like to add that I don't have a problem with NP's. It is just my personal preference to work with PA's rather than NP's.
First, I agree "doctor" implies physician to most of the public. Thus, all doctors should specify upon introduction their exact role: physician, surgeon, nurse, physical therapist, pharmacist, dentist, optometrist, et cetera to avoid any confusion.

Furthermore, we are not in a clinical setting. So you telling this poster to put doctor in quotes simply because her doctorate is not a medical degree is pretty messed up. You basically insult not only DNPs, but everyone who possess a professional or academic doctorate. Because, you imply they are not "real" doctors unless they attended medical school.

Finally, I think you need to learn more about NPs and DNPs. While their program may not be as intensive as the MD program, describing it as "fluff" and "butterflies" is inaccurate and rather insulting.
 
I agree with what you have to say. Nurses are great, RNs and NPs. The DNP is what we are all against. It is politics

Agreed. I've spent a lot of time alongside nurses and wouldn't ever attack the profession. They are absolutely essential!

The DNP degree is my issue. I do have some animosity built up about the situation. It's hard to undergo 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school and 3-5 years of residency to come out a PCP and have to worry about competing with a DNP for your job. Granted I plan to avoid PC at this time. Partly due to salary/debt and partly due issues like this.

A DNP should not be able to graduate and be considered equivalent to an MD/DO. The statistics are overwhemingly against this notion...yet somehow people actually believe this to be a feasible claim.
 
Finally, I think you need to learn more about NPs and DNPs. While their program may not be as intensive as the MD program, describing it as "fluff" and "butterflies" is inaccurate and rather insulting.


There's an NP gone MD who's posted numerous times on this forum explaining how incredibly different the two programs are. In addition most nursing friends I know say the same thing.

That being said the "fluff" he refers to is probably in response to the notion used by Pro-DNPs which claim their graduates parallel PCP education.

At this point the DNP curriculum is hard to say it warrants a doctorate. I do realize that programs are changing to make this degree more appropriate.

Here's one quick example:

http://www.utmem.edu/nursing/academic%20programs/DNP/index.php

Note: "The DNP curriculum is Web-mediated including opportunities for synchronous and asynchronous learning. Students are only required to be on campus 4 times a year (July, December, January, & April) for 5 to 7 days each session. With faculty approval, clinical courses can be completed in the student's state of residence."

Does this seem adequate?
 
I think most DNPs would not argue their education paralleled a MD's experience. As I said early, people need to distinguish between the DNP lobby and actual DNPs. The nursing lobby is no different than any other professional organization lobby. Protecting its clients' interests or their clients will stop paying membership fees. Rather I think many NPs and DNPs would argue their education and training is sufficient for many primary care situations. It seemed to me that many on here opposed that, but perhaps I was mistaken.

Also, the NPs that I know did not take a single online class. Not one. So I don't think doing an internet search in order to find a rather easy looking DNP program is fair or representative of most NPs and DNPs actual education.

Another issue in this country is higher education costs are exploding. I know you all are acutely aware of this problem. We should be open to new education methods that do the job as well or better than traditional methods and cost less. Are online classrooms in their current form up-to-par? I don't know. But I can envision a future when higher education is taught in a radically different way than it is today. I think you all should be open minded to new methods.

Finally, I am against the DNP as are most NPs I know. I believe it is just another example of credential inflation (which is another big problem and is effecting many vocations beyond health care) and will not yield any new privileges to NPs or render value to patients. I believe a RN who has her BSN and obtains a 2 1/2 year MSN in nurse practitioning is sufficient for many primary care tasks.
 
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even if a particular nurse could not get into med school, that does not make her dumb or incapable of assuming greater responsibility and duties with increased education and training.

If someone can't cut it in school, then we should allow that person put the lives of patients at risk?

Have you not been paying attention at all to the plane crash in Buffalo, NY that killed 49 passengers because of inadequate training?


If patients understand the extent of training that DNP's receive and accepts the risks, I have no problem with DNP's. However, DNP's are clearly using deceptive practices to try to trick the public into thinking that DNP = MD. See the posting I made earlier about how the DNP's are trying to trick people into thinking that DNP's took the same USMLE step 3 as physicians.
 
As I said early, people need to distinguish between the DNP lobby and actual DNPs. The nursing lobby is no different than any other professional organization lobby.

Then it is your responsibility and every DNP who agrees with you to throw out the people in these organizations. Saying that you disagree with them is not good enough. We want to see results not rhetoric. I won't stop raising awareness about the DNP's just because you disagree with their current policies.
 
Lest I sound too negative about the future, I want to give the physicians and physicians-in-training hope. Bills have been introduced in the House and Senate to increase residency spots by 15%. Physicians have allies in Congress. We need more physicians in this country, not wannabe doctors.

AAMC-Backed Bill to Improve Access, Reduce Physician Shortage Introduced in Congress

Washington, D.C., May 5, 2009—The AAMC (Association of American Medical Colleges) applauded Sens. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.), Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), and Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) today for introducing the "Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2009," which would increase the number of Medicare-supported training positions for medical residents by 15 percent (approximately 15,000 slots). As a champion of legislation to increase federal investment in the education and training of physicians, the AAMC plans to work with its member medical schools and teaching hospitals to secure passage of the legislation.

"Millions of Americans either live in health professional shortage areas, or have no insurance, so it's important that health care reform expand coverage and improve access," said AAMC President and CEO Darrell G. Kirch, M.D. "The AAMC has been pleased to work with Congress on this legislation that will help ensure an adequate supply of physicians and allow teaching hospitals to train them in the most appropriate settings."

In 1997, the Balanced Budget Act froze the number of Medicare-supported resident training slots in hospitals at 1996 levels. The new legislation would redirect unused training slots and increase the cap by 15 percent to hospitals seeking to expand existing programs or establish new programs. The majority of the new and redistributed training slots would be targeted preferentially to institutions that increase the number of residency positions in primary care, general surgery, and those that train physicians in non-hospital settings.

The Senate bill would also change existing rules so residents can be trained in non-hospital settings such as physician offices, community health centers, and other ambulatory care sites. Finally, the legislation would allow communities to continue training residents, supported by Medicare, when teaching hospitals close.

Similar legislation was introduced in the House by Reps. Joseph Crowley (D-N.Y.), Kendrick Meek (D-Fla.), and Kathy Castor (D-Fla.).​
 
If someone can't cut it in school, then we should allow that person put the lives of patients at risk?

Have you not been paying attention at all to the plane crash in Buffalo, NY that killed 49 passengers because of inadequate training?If patients understand the extent of training that DNP's receive and accepts the risks, I have no problem with DNP's. However, DNP's are clearly using deceptive practices to try to trick the public into thinking that DNP = MD. See the posting I made earlier about how the DNP's are trying to trick people into thinking that DNP's took the same USMLE step 3 as physicians.
Yeah, that's awful but I don't really think it proves or disproves anything. Unfortunately, accidents happen even if one has the best training. I could track down stories of even some of the most distinguished neurosurgeons committing malpractice. Would that prove that neurosurgeons do not receive enough education or training?

Seeing a physician does not ensure perfect care. So until the machines take over, there is always going to be risk that a health care provider will make a misdiagnoses regardless of her education, training and experience. Thus, the question is not "do we tolerate a risk?" Rather the question is "how much risk are we willing to tolerate?" Basically a cost/benefit analysis. If DNPs can render approximately the same level of care at a reduced cost I think the public would be willing to tolerate that slightly elevated risk.

Finally, my comment was more directed at physicians' disrespectful attitudes towards non-physicians. It wasn't an argument that an unqualified person should be allowed to practice medicine.
 
Give an inch, take a mile, is a logical fallacy

Common examples of it :
1. If the government makes it mildly inconvenient to obtain some types of firearms, sooner or later they'll be breaking into my house and confiscating my gun collection

2. If the government makes it mildly inconvenient to get an abortion, there will be an epidemic of poor women having babies they don't want, or the inverse argument
if the government allows women to get an abortion in the third trimester when it's a choice between the woman's life and the infants, pretty soon they'll be murdering babies

3. If the government says they'll let parents use tax money to help pay for a private, religious school for their kids, pretty soon they'll be an official state religion

4. If the government raises taxes by 2%, pretty soon it'll be 20%. That 2% increase will mean no bright people do any work.

5. If the government lets DNPs do the lowest level, least skilled labor of a physician, pretty soon they'll be taking the jobs of heart surgeons. Also, they'll drive all the current primary care physicians out of business because patients will never figure out who's a doctor and who's a well educated nurse.

And on and on and on. Every tiny, sensible change that goes against a particular group's agenda gets lobbied against, even if that particular change is quite reasonable.
 
Yeah, that's awful but I don't really think it proves or disproves anything. Unfortunately, accidents happen even if one has the best training. I could track down stories of even some of the most distinguished neurosurgeons committing malpractice. Would that prove that neurosurgeons do not receive enough education or training?

There's a difference between accidents and never having learned something in the first place. That neurosurgeon may screw up because of fatigue, accident, etc. If I did brain surgery, I would screw up because I don't have adequate training to do brain surgery. There is a difference.

And no, none of us believe that an online DNP and 700 hours of clinical training is sufficient to allow DNP's to practice independently. Most of us spent 700 hours just on our medicine or surgery rotations alone. No medical student would claim they are then ready for independent practice.

If most patients knew the training of DNP's compared to physicians, very few would go see DNP's. You and I both know that. That's why DNP's have to resort to deception to get patients. But patients aren't completely stupid. Keep in mind that 80% of the ailments that these clinics see are the simple ones like strep throat, otitis media, etc. The public still wants to see the doctor for anything more than that. That's why these clinics haven't taken off like many NP's have hoped for. When it comes to their health, the public doesn't want someone "who couldn't get into medical school" to take care of them. Like I said, if it costs the same to see either an physician or NP, most people would choose the physician because they trust someone who has more education and training. This is just common sense. Even if the NP has the same outcome as physician for simple ailments, most would still the physician because the physician is more likely to catch something more serious that the NP doesn't. NP's will succeed only if they are cheaper; however, one goal of creating the DNP is to increase the pay of NP's which is counterproductive. The biggest losers I believe of the DNP are the DNP's themselves. More debt, more years in school to achieve the same level as NP's today.

CVS Shutters 90 Retail Clinics for the Season

In what may be an ominous sign for retail clinics, CVS Caremark has closed about 90 of some 550 MinuteClinic locations until the next flu season or other "seasonal" needs demand their services, Dow Jones Newswires reports.

This is the first time CVS has put any of its clinics on a "seasonal" schedule: spring is typically a slower season for the clinics. The company told Dow Jones the move was meant to "align with consumer demand," and that it hasn't exited any markets. Almost all of the clinics that were closed are located within 10 miles of another MinuteClinic, and half are within five miles, a spokeswoman said.

The move may speak to overcapacity in a young industry that has grown rapidly but has only attracted modest demand from patients, who go to the clinics for simple ailments. As we noted last year, the clinics appear to be showing a pattern sort of like the dot-com bubble, in which some will go away while others survive.

"For those in the industry, the nagging problem is what to do with the extra capacity we have in the off season, and unless that problem gets solved this industry will continue to have a major structural weakness," Tom Charland, a consultant and chief executive of Merchant Medicine, told Dow Jones. Charland recently noted on his site that growth of retail clinics has "all but disappeared" so far this year.

Walgreen, which operates hundreds of Take Care Clinics, told Dow Jones it doesn't plan to go the same route as CVS, instead focusing on offering year-round services such as vaccinations, blood-pressure tests and wound care.​
 
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Give an inch, take a mile, is a logical fallacy

Common examples of it :
1. If the government makes it mildly inconvenient to obtain some types of firearms, sooner or later they'll be breaking into my house and confiscating my gun collection

2. If the government makes it mildly inconvenient to get an abortion, there will be an epidemic of poor women having babies they don't want, or the inverse argument
if the government allows women to get an abortion in the third trimester when it's a choice between the woman's life and the infants, pretty soon they'll be murdering babies

3. If the government says they'll let parents use tax money to help pay for a private, religious school for their kids, pretty soon they'll be an official state religion

4. If the government raises taxes by 2%, pretty soon it'll be 20%. That 2% increase will mean no bright people do any work.

5. If the government lets DNPs do the lowest level, least skilled labor of a physician, pretty soon they'll be taking the jobs of heart surgeons. Also, they'll drive all the current primary care physicians out of business because patients will never figure out who's a doctor and who's a well educated nurse.

And on and on and on. Every tiny, sensible change that goes against a particular group's agenda gets lobbied against, even if that particular change is quite reasonable.


It isn't a logical fallacy at all. The question really warrants the question on whether the entity in question wants a mile or really only wants an inch. In the case of DNP autonomy, it is clear that some people want a mile, and it is illogical to think that they would not attempt to take it. Firearm registration was the impetus that eventually led into gun confiscation in Nazi Germany. Many of the people pushing for restrictions on abortion really want to ban abortion. Also, can you name a government tax type that didn't subsequently balloon? Your examples are actually pretty good examples of why it is not a logical fallacy at all.
 
It isn't a logical fallacy at all. The question really warrants the question on whether the entity in question wants a mile or really only wants an inch. In the case of DNP autonomy, it is clear that some people want a mile, and it is illogical to think that they would not attempt to take it. Firearm registration was the impetus that eventually led into gun confiscation in Nazi Germany. Many of the people pushing for restrictions on abortion really want to ban abortion. Also, can you name a government tax type that didn't subsequently balloon? Your examples are actually pretty good examples of why it is not a logical fallacy at all.

Well, the fallacy is that somehow compromising an idea a little bit means that a whole lot is the next step. Even if DNPs started dabbling in primary care, the obstacles in the way of them becoming surgeons are dramatically higher. Just because they want a mile doesn't mean that have a prayer of getting more than a few inches.
 
Well, the fallacy is that somehow compromising an idea a little bit means that a whole lot is the next step. Even if DNPs started dabbling in primary care, the obstacles in the way of them becoming surgeons are dramatically higher. Just because they want a mile doesn't mean that have a prayer of getting more than a few inches.

There are many non-surgical specialties that NP's would love to get into. Derm, cards, GI, nephrology, etc. So your point is moot.
 
There are many non-surgical specialties that NP's would love to get into. Derm, cards, GI, nephrology, etc. So your point is moot.

Replace that statement with "procedures and treatments that require expert skill, or patients lives will be endangered."

A cold isn't generally like that. Sure, maybe a physician is supposed to catch a rare disease when a patient comes in for something minor - but I bet those are missed far more often than they are caught, even by physicians. Or a back ache. Or a UTI. Or countless other minor things that need a prescription pad or a consult to treat.

The way medicine's going to work, the bottom level will be a bunch of cheap DNPs and PAs who take medicare and other cheap insurance. Those people will be gatekeepers - if they determine you need some real work done, you get sent to a specialist who's an MD with 5+ years of residency training.

The wealthy will pay for services from boutique M.D.s, where IM and FP trained M.D.s will handle your problems with far greater convenience and knowledge than a DNP/PA. Sort of riding coach in an airliner versus taking a private jet.

Instead of 60% of American medical graduates becoming specialists, it'll be everyone. Family Practice/IM programs will be re-factored to be more like specialties - maybe everyone will do a fellowship or something.

Seems inevitable, to be honest. Analogous to globalization of jobs and increasing specialization in the business world.
 
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Replace that statement with "procedures and treatments that require expert skill, or patients lives will be endangered."

A cold isn't generally like that. Sure, maybe a physician is supposed to catch a rare disease when a patient comes in for something minor - but I bet those are missed far more often than they are caught, even by physicians. Or a back ache. Or a UTI. Or countless other minor things that need a prescription pad or a consult to treat.

The way medicine's going to work, the bottom level will be a bunch of cheap DNPs and PAs who take medicare and other cheap insurance. Those people will be gatekeepers - if they determine you need some real work done, you get sent to a specialist who's an MD with 5+ years of residency training.

The wealthy will pay for services from boutique M.D.s, where IM and FP trained M.D.s will handle your problems with far greater convenience and knowledge than a DNP/PA. Sort of riding coach in an airliner versus taking a private jet.

Instead of 60% of American medical graduates becoming specialists, it'll be everyone. Family Practice/IM programs will be re-factored to be more like specialties - maybe everyone will do a fellowship or something.

Seems inevitable, to be honest. Analogous to globalization of jobs and increasing specialization in the business world.


its only inevitable if people are ok with it. DNPs would love to be able to do procedures like colonoscopies and such. Apparently the militant DNP's (the ones fighting to enable loopholes to be "equivalent" to physicians) are small they are getting alot done, and those who are happy with their current scope have no reason to go against them. After all the worst that can happen is they are allowed to have more autonomy and eventually do more procedures and make more money.

You seem to forget that politicians make policy. They are not in the system and have very little idea of what goes on. Yea they know physicians are better trained. But all that has to happen is some DNP says they take the same licensing test (watered down version of the USMLE 3) as physicians (neglect to mention half of them failed) and you have a policy maker thinking hey youre cheaper and if youre taking the same test... go ahead.
 
There are many non-surgical specialties that NP's would love to get into. Derm, cards, GI, nephrology, etc. So your point is moot.

Agreed.

And GMonroe, surgeons as NPs is an extreme example IMO.
 
You seem to forget that politicians make policy. They are not in the system and have very little idea of what goes on. Yea they know physicians are better trained. But all that has to happen is some DNP says they take the same licensing test (watered down version of the USMLE 3) as physicians (neglect to mention half of them failed) and you have a policy maker thinking hey youre cheaper and if youre taking the same test... go ahead.

Sad and I hope un-true. Unfortunately I think you're right. Time will tell.
 
Replace that statement with "procedures and treatments that require expert skill, or patients lives will be endangered."

A cold isn't generally like that. Sure, maybe a physician is supposed to catch a rare disease when a patient comes in for something minor - but I bet those are missed far more often than they are caught, even by physicians. Or a back ache. Or a UTI. Or countless other minor things that need a prescription pad or a consult to treat.

The way medicine's going to work, the bottom level will be a bunch of cheap DNPs and PAs who take medicare and other cheap insurance. Those people will be gatekeepers - if they determine you need some real work done, you get sent to a specialist who's an MD with 5+ years of residency training.

The wealthy will pay for services from boutique M.D.s, where IM and FP trained M.D.s will handle your problems with far greater convenience and knowledge than a DNP/PA. Sort of riding coach in an airliner versus taking a private jet.

Instead of 60% of American medical graduates becoming specialists, it'll be everyone. Family Practice/IM programs will be re-factored to be more like specialties - maybe everyone will do a fellowship or something.

Seems inevitable, to be honest. Analogous to globalization of jobs and increasing specialization in the business world.


What no one realizes is that primary care is actually very complex and doing it well is very difficult. Just because it is not competitive right now does not mean it is not too complex for someone with 3 years of training. The extra training is essential to keeping costs down so that they know how to treat the complexities of disease rather than just turfing them to the specialists. Othewise (and what will happen if DNPs take over primary care) all the primary care doc becomes is a triage nurse. That is not what primary care is supposed to be.

While NPs may charge less right now, expect them to lobby and in the end get paid the same rate. So while it may seem to be a cost saving measure right now to have them do primary care, in the end they will be making the same rate to just turf more people to the specialists. This will cost us more money.
 
Instatewaiter : I looked at a curriculum for a family practice residency. Essentially, they rotate for few weeks through nearly every specialty. It's 3 years of straight rotations. It truly is a training program intended to create a "jack of all trades, master of none". I mean, did you get to do anything really after a rotation in medical school? Then how much more would you be able to learn after a mere additional 6 weeks in that specialty as a resident?

DNPs and PAs have a point. Especially PAs : some of them have done a "residency" where they have a year or two solely on ONE specialty. So actually, they'll be more educated for low level complaints for that one specialty than a family practice doc, in theory.

The catch is for complex, multi-disorder patients where you need someone who actually knows a little bit of everything to manage their care.

Still, there's an exceedingly obvious way to set things up.

The primary care clinic of the future could have a staff of about 5 to 10 midlevels. Each midlevel would be specialized in one thing - so if the patient has minor heart problems, they see the cardio PA. Colds - the infectious disease PA.

If the patient has complex multiple disorders or has a problem that the PA/DNP can't figure out, the patient is sent down the hall to a physician.

In turn, that physician can refer to a specialist physician. And so on.

Is this the way a clinic of the future will run? Maybe, maybe not. In general, however, increasing specialization is inevitable. Specialization creates more LOW skill specialized jobs as well as highly skilled ones. Once upon a time, 'short order cooks' for the diners of the day actually needed real skill. Now, fast food workers barely need to know more than how to flip a burger. In this day of the internet, there are now people who are paid to sit around collecting digital loot in video games. There are people who spend all day filling in CAPTCHAs so that millions of people can be sent unwanted junk mail. And so on.

The model of the family physician who runs a clinic with the help of 1 or 2 assistants, seeing the same patients for decades and visiting them in the hospital and making housecalls is long gone.
 
I looked at a curriculum for a family practice residency. Essentially, they rotate for few weeks through nearly every specialty. It's 3 years of straight rotations. It truly is a training program intended to create a "jack of all trades, master of none". I mean, did you get to do anything really after a rotation in medical school? Then how much more would you be able to learn after a mere additional 6 weeks in that specialty as a resident?

Gee, I guess you could say the same thing about internal medicine. Throughout their training, they rotate through the different areas of medicine such as cards, GI, endo, ID, nephro, etc. Except that their training is primarily inpt vs outpt for FM. Is a residency-trained IM doc really any better than a med student? :rolleyes: Primary care is difficult because you have to know about a lot of systems. It's been shown in studies that NP's are much more likely to make referrals to specialists because they don't know how to handle an issue. How is that supposed to reduce healthcare costs? It doesn't. When a lot of didactic training is done online and you only get 700 hours of training, is anyone really surprised?

Look, I'm sure you mean well, but your posts border on the naive. You're what, going to start med school in a few months or just finishing MSI? Wait til you have a few more years before you make blanket assertions.
 
While NPs may charge less right now, expect them to lobby and in the end get paid the same rate. So while it may seem to be a cost saving measure right now to have them do primary care, in the end they will be making the same rate to just turf more people to the specialists. This will cost us more money.

Bingo!
 
Are you all trying to say that you shouldn't build your house with paper, even though its cheaper than brick?
 
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