Is PM&R competitive?

[blastoff]

I hear everybody telling me that the residency is getting harder and harder every year to get into. I am confused by this statement. Previous avg comlex 1 score for 2014 was even lower then psych at 427. The usmle score avg was right around 220. Am i missing something? Is this field competitive as of today to get into? I am sure there is more to it then board scores but can one presume that it wont be hard to land a DO or MD residency if there stats are similar to the averages? Is there something that I am missing like the number of applicants that apply rather then scores?

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[j4pac]

I hear everybody telling me that the residency is getting harder and harder every year to get into. I am confused by this statement. Previous avg comlex 1 score for 2014 was even lower then psych at 427. The usmle score avg was right around 220. Am i missing something? Is this field competitive as of today to get into? I am sure there is more to it then board scores but can one presume that it wont be hard to land a DO or MD residency if there stats are similar to the averages? Is there something that I am missing like the number of applicants that apply rather then scores?

I would love to see the link to where you got your data on the comlex numbers.

PM&R is very competitive because there is a significant number of applicants per seat, unlike Psych. I think that there is a misconception that PM&R is less competitive, so it is targeted by applicants with lesser numbers...just as those with high numbers target Derm. Look at NRMP charging outcomes...to have a 90% of matching a USMD needs 11 contiguous ranks. Compare that to 4 for psych.

PM&R does not require as strong of board scores. It prides itself on fit...so the PS, LOR, and interviews are weighted more heavily than in many other specialties...which likely account for the lower score averages.

 

[sloh]

PM&R gets more competitive each year as more students catch on to it

 

[studerman]

At Mayo, Dr. W said applications have definitely become way more competitive over the past years.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

The term PM&R and the word "competitive" do not belong in the same sentence. They don't even belong in the same paragraph, unless you're saying how PM&R is not competitive. Then yes, you can use the two terms in the same vicinity.

You have a 75% chance of matching as a US grad into PM&R with a Step 1 score of 190! Compare that to a truly competitive specialty - Plastic Surgery - where a 210 gives you a mere 35% chance of matching.

In 2014, PM&R, Fam Med, and Psych were the lowest in Step scores of matched applicants. If you have a pulse, you'll match.

 

[blastoff]

I would love to see the link to where you got your data on the comlex numbers.

PM&R is very competitive because there is a significant number of applicants per seat, unlike Psych. I think that there is a misconception that PM&R is less competitive, so it is targeted by applicants with lesser numbers...just as those with high numbers target Derm. Look at NRMP charging outcomes...to have a 90% of matching a USMD needs 11 contiguous ranks. Compare that to 4 for psych.

PM&R does not require as strong of board scores. It prides itself on fit...so the PS, LOR, and interviews are weighted more heavily than in many other specialties...which likely account for the lower score averages.

http://www.aacom.org/reports-programs-initiatives/aacom-reports/special-reports/ogme-match-2014

There is the link. You have to put in your email address to get the report. Scores are on pg 20. For the DO match there was only 18 applicants for 12 spots. So essentially its a 1.5 ratio which does not seem too bad. On charting outcomes it states that for us seniors the match rate is 89 percent and the number of spots to applicants ratio is also a 1.5 (one thing to note here again is independent applicants have a really low chance of matching while out of the 231 us senior applicants only 26 did not match.) Its hard for me to get anything from this data. Maybe someone else can clarify.

 

[blastoff]

The term PM&R and the word "competitive" do not belong in the same sentence. They don't even belong in the same paragraph, unless you're saying how PM&R is not competitive. Then yes, you can use the two terms in the same vicinity.

You have a 75% chance of matching as a US grad into PM&R with a Step 1 score of 190! Compare that to a truly competitive specialty - Plastic Surgery - where a 210 gives you a mere 35% chance of matching.

In 2014, PM&R, Fam Med, and Psych were the lowest in Step scores of matched applicants. If you have a pulse, you'll match.

This is the whole argument. Applicants applying for PM&R is getting higher and higher. The ratio of applicants to spots it at a 1.5. Compare that to general surgery which is also 1.5. As alluded to earlier I really think this specialty does not care for high board scores. So the million dollar question still stands. Is pm&r competitive?

 

[RangerBob]

This thread pops up fairly often and generates a lot of debate. Yes, PM&R is competitive--primarily because of the large amount of applicants per position. By USMLE/Complex we're at/near the bottom (I think we're only above FM for USMLE scores), but by %US seniors matched we're above EM and equal to gen surg. Obviously there's some selection bias there because that looks at people who already chose that specialty (whereas perhaps low board scores are what led an applicant to apply to PM&R instead of a surgical specialty--though honestly I've never run into someone in that situation. Everyone I know in PM&R chose PM&R as their first choice)

Here's a nice link that looks at PM&R statistics, with pages for all other specialties:

https://residency.wustl.edu/Choosing/SpecDesc/Pages/PhysicalMedicine.aspx

Based on that PM&R was "intermediate" competitiveness in the last cycle, and "high" the prior two. They use the definition that "competitiveness is based upon the percentage of U.S. Seniors who ranked each specialty as their only choice."

Generally, if you have average scores and are a decent human being/easy enough to talk to, and apply broadly, you'll get in somewhere. It's competitive, but to a degree. Like I said, the main reason it's competitive is the ratio of interest to available seats (which could eventually lead to higher board scores, but ours increased along with every other specialty's). If you're got great board scores, you're set and you'll be looking at top programs.

 

[j4pac]

This is the whole argument. Applicants applying for PM&R is getting higher and higher. The ratio of applicants to spots it at a 1.5. Compare that to general surgery which is also 1.5. As alluded to earlier I really think this specialty does not care for high board scores. So the million dollar question still stands. Is pm&r competitive?

@RangerBob nailed it.

In regards to the DO match information above. You do realize that those COMLEX numbers are only for the DO Match and not ACGME match. Do you think that there are were only 18 DO's interested in PM&R last year? No way. Practically every DO interested in the specialty deferred the DO match because it would have screwed up the opportunity to match ACGME. I'm a DO...I didn't apply DO. I only personally know one person who applied DO last year and it was after the person failed to secure more than a few interviews with ACGME. DO PM&R is NOT competitive...ACGME is.

I think that your definition of competitive is flawed. A competitive applicant isn't always the applicant with the best board scores. If I was an internal medicine program director...absolutely...USMLE would be very highly weighted because it is primarily a test of Internal medicine knowledge and application. Do you need to be brilliant at Internal Medicine to be a great PM&R doc...not so much, though of course it doesn't hurt. PM&R residency classes are filled with applicants, like me, who found ways to be competitive applicants in more ways than just being able to take a test. I very likely took the seat of a couple hundred applicants with better board scores. It's not that people with high board scores aren't applying, it just that PM&R doesn't always take the guy/gal with the best scores.

If you prepare to match to PM&R with the thought that ACGME PM&R isn't competitive...

 

[gamrag]

Board scores are going up for PM&R, but board scores are going up for every specialty because the average USMLE is going up every year. So to PDs, it looks like they are getting better applicants. There are more students applying each year overall, but I don't think PM&R has jumped that much.

The total number of spots is about the same, the number of interview invites programs give out should also be around the same. What determines how competitive something is depends on the number of people that apply. There are more med schools than every before, so there are more students applying. That means the hardest part will be getting the interviews. If you are an average or above average candidate, you should be fine for PM&R. It's the people who are below average applicants that will struggle now because they will get less interviews.

Overall, PM&R isn't bad. If you have average USMLE scores and are easy to work with, you should match. For some reason, I didn't meet any foreign grads on my interview. Not sure why that is, but the field seems very open to taking people with low board scores. No one also seems to care whether you are MD or DO. But I was surprised by the lack of foreign grads.

 

[RangerBob]

Board scores are going up for PM&R, but board scores are going up for every specialty because the average USMLE is going up every year. So to PDs, it looks like they are getting better applicants. There are more students applying each year overall, but I don't think PM&R has jumped that much.

The total number of spots is about the same, the number of interview invites programs give out should also be around the same. What determines how competitive something is depends on the number of people that apply. There are more med schools than every before, so there are more students applying. That means the hardest part will be getting the interviews. If you are an average or above average candidate, you should be fine for PM&R. It's the people who are below average applicants that will struggle now because they will get less interviews.

Overall, PM&R isn't bad. If you have average USMLE scores and are easy to work with, you should match. For some reason, I didn't meet any foreign grads on my interview. Not sure why that is, but the field seems very open to taking people with low board scores. No one also seems to care whether you are MD or DO. But I was surprised by the lack of foreign grads.

PM&R used to have a very heavy number of foreign trained physicians entering residency (back when ortho surgeon applicants, even unfriendly ones, could count on PM&R as essentially a guaranteed back-up plan). In fact, if you look at the faculty at most programs, a good number of the older faculty have graduated from medical school overseas. I don't know the exact statistics, but there's definitely a significant number of non-US educated physiatrists in practice.

I think the main reason there are hardly any foreign grads seen on the interview trail is more US MD and DO applicants know about the field. More of them have been applying, and most programs will generally prefer US trained MD/DOs over those trained internationally or in the Caribbean--assuming the MD and DO applicants are quality applicants of course. But I think that's part of why the field is more competitive--there are a lot of smart people out there who wish they'd known about PM&R when they applied to residency, and now I think we're catching the interest of those students while they're still in medical school. I really think the PM&R field getting more competitive is just a correction to what it would/should be had every medical student actually known the field existed.

 

[blastoff]

@RangerBob nailed it.

In regards to the DO match information above. You do realize that those COMLEX numbers are only for the DO Match and not ACGME match. Do you think that there are were only 18 DO's interested in PM&R last year? No way. Practically every DO interested in the specialty deferred the DO match because it would have screwed up the opportunity to match ACGME. I'm a DO...I didn't apply DO. I only personally know one person who applied DO last year and it was after the person failed to secure more than a few interviews with ACGME. DO PM&R is NOT competitive...ACGME is.

I think that your definition of competitive is flawed. A competitive applicant isn't always the applicant with the best board scores. If I was an internal medicine program director...absolutely...USMLE would be very highly weighted because it is primarily a test of Internal medicine knowledge and application. Do you need to be brilliant at Internal Medicine to be a great PM&R doc...not so much, though of course it doesn't hurt. PM&R residency classes are filled with applicants, like me, who found ways to be competitive applicants in more ways than just being able to take a test. I very likely took the seat of a couple hundred applicants with better board scores. It's not that people with high board scores aren't applying, it just that PM&R doesn't always take the guy/gal with the best scores.

If you prepare to match to PM&R with the thought that ACGME PM&R isn't competitive...

Would it be wise for a below avg applicant (470 comlex score without a usmle) to skip out on the D.O match? I feel like with my given board score the best option would be D.O match given the competitiveness of MD programs.

 

[j4pac]

Would it be wise for a below avg applicant (470 comlex score without a usmle) to skip out on the D.O match? I feel like with my given board score the best option would be D.O match given the competitiveness of MD programs.

You need to apply broadly to both. Then based on the number of applications you received, you make your decision on whether to apply DO.

You need to rock step 2, and find other ways to be competitive. Your still in the game, but your margin of error is less.