Is pharmacy school worth being in 220k of debt?

[lord999]

I think there are two fundamental issues with idealists justifying pharmacy school in 2018/2019.

1. They don't understand how much a 200k-350k loan really is. That is not the true cost of the loan, because no one gives out a loan at "0%." A 350k loan when fully settled is probably going to cost $450-550k with interest / refi / etc.
2. They are thinking they will make 130k a year right after graduating, and for the next 20 years while they pay off their loans.

Sorry, but something called "life" happens and your plans go to ****. -quoted by Life itself

And to add a third, most idealists have never worked seriously in a pharmacy, and what I mean by "serious" is a day when you don't want to work. It's the different between a sport and a passion, it's the former when you don't perform on bad days, and it's a passion when you do. I don't take anyone's career seriously until I've seen them work when it sucks.

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[Timbo]

Please be respectful. They are looking for jobs.

I don't mean any disrespect. But how have they been paying their bills, housing, student loans???

 

[Modest_anteater]

I don't mean any disrespect. But how have they been paying their bills, housing, student loans???

Just a guess but...

paying bills = they moved back home which means no bills
housing = they moved back home
student loans = defaulted or put payments on hiatus

 

[Melazine]

Just a guess but...

paying bills = they moved back home which means no bills
housing = they moved back home
student loans = defaulted or put payments on hiatus

That is accurate

 

[Gombrich12]

That is accurate

Your friends will never work as pharmacists if you're telling the truth about them graduating 4-5 years ago and never working.

 

[Melazine]

Your friends will never work as pharmacists if you're telling the truth about them graduating 4-5 years ago and never working.

Yes, I’m afraid it’s too late for them. They tried finding work, but no luck. I also knew two others who didn’t find jobs until a year after graduation (all from different schools). I always wanted to attribute their failure to character flaws, but I’m not perfect, who am I to judge. The point is, finding a job with a PharmD degree is not as easy as we think.

 

[gwarm01]

The point is, finding a job with a PharmD degree is not as easy as we think.

That's pretty damning when you consider the average opinion is "there are no jobs and you will die alone."

 

[Melazine]

That's pretty damning when you consider the average opinion is "there are no jobs and you will die alone."

Sorry, I don’t understand what you meant by “damning.”

 

[jjcayce123]

CRNA is the way to go in my opinion.

 

[ExpressMaiL]

Something to consider is that recent grads who can't find jobs/ are jobless don't advertise that information to their friends, so the real number is a mystery. I saw some of these individuals as two applicants for a pharmacy I was hiring at were willing to work for ~$40/hour. Ultimately I didn't hire them but it's scary to think about being jobless and having huge loan payments...

 

[jjcayce123]

$40/hour is horrible. But if you have nothing I guess you have to take what you can get until you are presented with a better opportunity.

 

[Timbo]

Yes, I’m afraid it’s too late for them. They tried finding work, but no luck. I also knew two others who didn’t find jobs until a year after graduation (all from different schools). I always wanted to attribute their failure to character flaws, but I’m not perfect, who am I to judge. The point is, finding a job with a PharmD degree is not as easy as we think.

Have they not tried finding work in another field? Heck even working at Starbucks for minimum wage is better than 0 income

 

[APN-59 rph]

Lately I have been hearing from newbies that the loans are north of 250k...some way north...Many (most) of you are volunteering for indentured servitude....I would HIGHLY advise that you get outside advice before floundering into this field...It is only getting worse...IF you think that you are the special one.....YOU absolutely need the outside advice...Paying a grand to a career expert could save you from a 350k re-pay...

 

[HandsomeVampire]

Have they not tried finding work in another field? Heck even working at Starbucks for minimum wage is better than 0 income

Starbucks might not hire them because they are overqualify


An intern of mine said oh I will graduate and make 6 fig.. I'll just put 100k a year in the loan and I'll be done in 2-3 years...

They'll be in for a surprise that it wouldn't be as simple as that. I wish it were then I would be done too.

Back to the topic, no. It is not worth 220k debt to go into a narrow scope of saturated employment with an uncertain direction in the future. The school will promise otherwise but they want your tuition money. It matters not what happen after you graduate.

 

[grizzlesgrizzlies]

The point is, finding a job with a PharmD degree is not as easy as we think.

The PharmD degree is pretty useless outside of pharmacy practice. An argument can somewhat be made for industry, but how many of those jobs are out there?

 

[Modest_anteater]

That is accurate

thanks man! and i feel like a lot of ppl maybe are out of touch with pharmacy or pharm grads bc I know a lot of pharm grads suffering. Sure most are employed but a lot are not. So it's like crazy when ppl say every pharmD they know has a job. How many pharmDs do they know? like 5?

 

[Victor85]

OP, realistically you are not going to finish pharmacy school with 70k debt. I only know a few with less than 100. Those that went to schools that has a automatic undergrad to pharmacy program like Florida a&m.
I worked my ass off thru school to pay for living expenses only borrowing tuition n fees and still came out with over 100k debt.
The majority of younger pharmacist (less than 10 years experience wish we had never went to pharmacy school).
Atleast that’s the consensus in my group of pharmd.

Better off taking that 100k and buy the mega million tonight lol.

I mean, if you are keen on going, then go for it. Schools are still going to take your money and there will always be pharmacist looking for free help as preceptor.
Good luck to you.



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[APN-59 rph]

I just finished skimming an article on the Bezos dude....Apparently he cogitates at least three years in advance....The boy has his hairy eyeball on the drug peddling trade...discuss.....

 

[jjcayce123]

There were a couple people I went to school with that their parents paid everything including tuition. Meanwhile I just bought 10 mega millions tickets. One can hope!

 

[sozetone]

I posted this thread in the pre-pharmacy section, but I figured I'd get more of a response here. Here's my situation:

So, I recently graduated with my Bachelor's in Business Management and I'll be turning 26 this summer (I changed majors/took time off of school, etc). I've decided that I would really like to give pharmacy another shot. It's what I enjoy doing and I wasn't prepared my first time around.

My issue is that I have 70k in existing student loans. I've been accepted at ACPHS, but I have one more year of pre-reqs to complete before going into the professional phase. As long as I meet the minimum requirements, there is a seat reserved for me.

I'm getting a $5,000 yearly scholarship, but the first year tuition alone is $31k ($26k after scholarship). The next 4 years are $36k ($31k after scholarship). Pharmacy school in total would cost me $150k, assuming I don't get any additional grants/scholarships once I begin the professional portion. That combined with my existing $70k would put my student loan debt at $220k. During the program, I could stay with family who lives near Albany, so my living expenses wouldn't be too crazy. My Mom even mentioned perhaps living at home a year after I graduate and just putting the majority of my salary toward my student loans for that year. I just don't know if I want to be doing that at 31 years old.

My other option is to wait for SUNY Stony Brook's program to open in a year or so and try there, since it's a public school and lot cheaper for me as a NY resident (I live on Long Island and could commute there). I'd just hate to wait another year or so before going back to school, since I'm not getting any younger.


I'm pretty confident I can land a job after graduation, as a friend of mine is a pharmacist and owns his own independent pharmacy. Plus, I have connections from my former job as a tech at CVS.

My question is, would it be smart of me to do this, financially?

The real question should be "Is PRACTICING as a pharmacist worth being 220K in debt", if we were all able to obtain steady work at a good rate, then yes! If job security was at least 50%, then yes! if salaries were not dropping, then YES! However, what we see now in the real world is the complete opposite. so, NO!

 

[mentos]

I think there are two fundamental issues with idealists justifying pharmacy school in 2018/2019.

1. They don't understand how much a 200k-350k loan really is. That is not the true cost of the loan, because no one gives out a loan at "0%." A 350k loan when fully settled is probably going to cost $450-550k with interest / refi / etc.
2. They are thinking they will make 130k a year right after graduating, and for the next 20 years while they pay off their loans.

Sorry, but something called "life" happens and your plans go to ****. -quoted by Life itself

And to add a third, most idealists have never worked seriously in a pharmacy, and what I mean by "serious" is a day when you don't want to work. It's the different between a sport and a passion, it's the former when you don't perform on bad days, and it's a passion when you do. I don't take anyone's career seriously until I've seen them work when it sucks.

Fourth, many of these millennials have never worked a job or paid for rent and living expenses in their life. They think they will take home 120k/year. They get their first paycheck and realize a third of it goes to Uncle Sam, uh oh!!

 

[sozetone]

And to add a third, most idealists have never worked seriously in a pharmacy, and what I mean by "serious" is a day when you don't want to work. It's the different between a sport and a passion, it's the former when you don't perform on bad days, and it's a passion when you do. I don't take anyone's career seriously until I've seen them work when it sucks.

Bro, come to my ghetto WM and watch me work day after day as a manager. It Sucks every day! .....you will take me seriously....lol
I'll even vacuum before you come by. lol maybe dump the shredder first too!....

 

[jjcayce123]

retail pharmacy is the scourge of the earth....no thanks

 

[jjcayce123]

didnt go to school to be a bag boy....have fun with that retail crap

 

[GypsyHummus]

Lol, what’s a social security and Medicare tax?

But taxes help us to build the roads n stuff. That’s what all my left leaning colleges professors taught me.

Fourth, many of these millennials have never worked a job or paid for rent and living expenses in their life. They think they will take home 120k/year. They get their first paycheck and realize a third of it goes to Uncle Sam, uh oh!!

 

[gwarm01]

Lol, what’s a social security and Medicare tax?

But taxes help us to build the roads n stuff. That’s what all my left leaning colleges professors taught me.

I mean... uh.. they do? I don't think publicly funded roads are a liberal conspiracy.

 

[owlegrad]

I mean... uh.. they do? I don't think publicly funded roads are a liberal conspiracy.

Right? What a weird example. I will take paying taxes over not having roads every day, LOL.

 

[beautifulrobot]

Right? What a weird example. I will take paying taxes over not having roads every day, LOL.

I literally think this almost every time I drive on a well-paved road. And then I think about that Domino's commercial where they are like, "call us and we may fix potholes you experience while carrying out one of our pizzas!" And then I get sad about the direction this country is going.

 

[BC_89]

(**as others blindly bury themselves in six figure debt with interest**)

I’ll be getting paid $3,683.33 tax free every month in school plus tuition paid in full....

But carry on...Its nice evaluating how well I’ve played my cards out. As a cherry-side-note, I have no interest in metropolitan America. Gimme my cabin in the woods in the middle of nowhere. Y’all keep fighting for the city and low wages lol I’ll settle with my deer tags and fishing license on my few minutes of free time working in the boonies.

 

[lord999]

I mean... uh.. they do? I don't think publicly funded roads are a liberal conspiracy.

But toll roads are, ever drive in Illinois? I really, really hate the IL Toll Authority.

 

[gwarm01]

But toll roads are, ever drive in Illinois? I really, really hate the IL Toll Authority.

Never driven in Illinois, but someone once told me the roads were supposed to go free once the cost of construction was paid, but then they decided to just keep taking tolls. I would expect no less from the great state of Illinois.

I always appreciated the Florida Turnpike. If the madness of I-95 was too stressful I could spend a few privilege points and take the less crowded way home.

 

[lord999]

(**as others blindly bury themselves in six figure debt with interest**)

I’ll be getting paid $3,683.33 tax free every month in school plus tuition paid in full....

But carry on...Its nice evaluating how well I’ve played my cards out. As a cherry-side-note, I have no interest in metropolitan America. Gimme my cabin in the woods in the middle of nowhere. Y’all keep fighting for the city and low wages lol I’ll settle with my deer tags and fishing license on my few minutes of free time working in the boonies.

Yes, but most people don't sleep rough like you had to for four years. And by the way (and I mean this sincerely), I would strongly recommend you have about $10k on hand because the VA is *(#$ing notorious for not paying their educational claims on time. VA HEC Atlanta routinely destroys applications and claims to deal with their backlog. Never count beneficiary pay before the check clears (I've seen VA checks bounce before too by us not having funds in the correct Fund Control Point which makes our wholesaler really pissed).

 

[BC_89]

Yes, but most people don't sleep rough like you had to for four years. And by the way (and I mean this sincerely), I would strongly recommend you have about $10k on hand because the VA is *(#$ing notorious for not paying their educational claims on time. VA HEC Atlanta routinely destroys applications and claims to deal with their backlog. Never count beneficiary pay before the check clears (I've seen VA checks bounce before too by us not having funds in the correct Fund Control Point which makes our wholesaler really pissed).

Absolutely concur. 35k is sitting in an online savings account (whatever Ally can afford to give me on a small interest rate). I suspect the delay at least 3 - 5 times from the VA ( at least once annually for every school year).

I didn’t include spouses income as a social worker simply since we plan to dedicate it to investments while I’m in school. Of course that could switch up toward school costs just as well. In the end, I’m trying to let people (pre-pharmers) know avenues exist that don’t include debt. Just many people aren’t willing to do it I suppose.

 

[Modest_anteater]

(**as others blindly bury themselves in six figure debt with interest**)

I’ll be getting paid $3,683.33 tax free every month in school plus tuition paid in full....

But carry on...Its nice evaluating how well I’ve played my cards out. As a cherry-side-note, I have no interest in metropolitan America. Gimme my cabin in the woods in the middle of nowhere. Y’all keep fighting for the city and low wages lol I’ll settle with my deer tags and fishing license on my few minutes of free time working in the boonies.

The souls of all the brown children and women your organization released from their physical bodies in the Middle East will still find you no matter how far away you try to hide in the forest my friend.

 

[BC_89]

The souls of all the brown children and women your organization released from their physical bodies in the Middle East will still find you no matter how far away you try to hide in the forest my friend.

Serious right now or a dry joke?

I’m curious since last time we chatted I thoroughly explained how your relying on said - gov. organization - to forgive your debt and live in a car parked outside of Starbucks WiFi.

 

[owlegrad]

Serious right now or a dry joke?

I’m curious since last time we chatted I thoroughly explained how your relying on said - gov. organization - to forgive your debt and live in a car parked outside of Starbucks WiFi.

I appreciate your measured response but let me put a stop to this line of discussion right here. It's not appropriate in a professional pharmacy forum.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Eh, it was a poor attempt at humor to highlight that the government is taking out more than just enough for public roads. In reality, I think that the military and government entitlements (Social Security, Medicare/Caid, etc.) consume a ton of tax money.

I personally just get my jimmies in a rustle when I hear people retort "well, you need to pay for roads durh hurh" whenever I complain about how much they took out of payroll. If we were just paying for roads, the bill would be a lot less.

I mean... uh.. they do? I don't think publicly funded roads are a liberal conspiracy.

 

[mentos]

Eh, it was a poor attempt at humor to highlight that the government is taking out more than just enough for public roads. In reality, I think that the military and government entitlements (Social Security, Medicare/Caid, etc.) consume a ton of tax money.

I personally just get my jimmies in a rustle when I hear people retort "well, you need to pay for roads durh hurh" whenever I complain about how much they took out of payroll. If we were just paying for roads, the bill would be a lot less.

Agreed. Only like 1% of tax dollars go to roads. The majority of it goes to military.

https://www.usnews.com/news/article...ents-of-your-federal-income-taxes?context=amp

 

[ExpressMaiL]

LoL @ 100k/ year for 2 to 3 years to pay off his/her loans. That person is in for a rude awakening.

Schools like USC cost $57k for tuition ALONE. That is 228k without tuition increases and without housing/living allowance/etc. Add another 20k / year x 4 years for those costs and BAM $300k+. Assuming a student can get by on a monthly budget of <$1700 in LA is already a challenge. Talk about daily instant noodles x 4 years... so not only do you get 300k debt, but also a bonus diagnosis of hypertension, free of charge!!

 

[projektreverb]

LoL @ 100k/ year for 2 to 3 years to pay off his/her loans. That person is in for a rude awakening.

Schools like USC cost $57k for tuition ALONE. That is 228k without tuition increases and without housing/living allowance/etc. Add another 20k / year x 4 years for those costs and BAM $300k+. Assuming a student can get by on a monthly budget of <$1700 in LA is already a challenge. Talk about daily instant noodles x 4 years... so not only do you get 300k debt, but also a bonus diagnosis of hypertension, free of charge!!

USC is serious 57k??? Yeah not worth it.

 

[wagrxm2000]

The souls of all the brown children and women your organization released from their physical bodies in the Middle East will still find you no matter how far away you try to hide in the forest my friend.

Account on hold? Say it ain't so.

 

[owlegrad]

Account on hold? Say it ain't so.

It's temporary. He'll be back.

 

[Momus]

LoL @ 100k/ year for 2 to 3 years to pay off his/her loans. That person is in for a rude awakening.

Schools like USC cost $57k for tuition ALONE. That is 228k without tuition increases and without housing/living allowance/etc. Add another 20k / year x 4 years for those costs and BAM $300k+. Assuming a student can get by on a monthly budget of <$1700 in LA is already a challenge. Talk about daily instant noodles x 4 years... so not only do you get 300k debt, but also a bonus diagnosis of hypertension, free of charge!!

I know a girl hooked up with plastic resident, popped a couple babies for this. She is deeply in debt, talking about 300-400k debt. In a couple years, she will be debt free and loaded.

What's the word they call Kylie and Kim? Thot?! There is always a way... (；￣Д￣)

 

[wagrxm2000]

It's temporary. He'll be back.

How long is a hold? His backwards thoughts actually humored me occasionally as much as they were completely wrong.

 

[allantois]

LoL @ 100k/ year for 2 to 3 years to pay off his/her loans. That person is in for a rude awakening.

Schools like USC cost $57k for tuition ALONE. That is 228k without tuition increases and without housing/living allowance/etc. Add another 20k / year x 4 years for those costs and BAM $300k+. Assuming a student can get by on a monthly budget of <$1700 in LA is already a challenge. Talk about daily instant noodles x 4 years... so not only do you get 300k debt, but also a bonus diagnosis of hypertension, free of charge!!

Ah, USC - the leader in predatory school lending

Also, this story:
USC's tentative $215-million settlement in Tyndall abuse cases likely just the beginning of financial pain for the university - Los Angeles Times

 

[Secret_Informant]

thanks man! and i feel like a lot of ppl maybe are out of touch with pharmacy or pharm grads bc I know a lot of pharm grads suffering. Sure most are employed but a lot are not. So it's like crazy when ppl say every pharmD they know has a job. How many pharmDs do they know? like 5?

That is the flaw in lack of sustained data and in "word-of-mouth" transmission of information. It is never truly accurate, only opinionated information without substantial evidence to the contrary. I never go by what I hear from people but from what I read.

A small sample size (n is less than or equal to 5) from a not-so-rare population of students (jobless PharmD graduates) demonstrates significant bias in reporting. PharmDs without jobs is not a rare population. Also, the words "a job" could not always apply to a job requiring a pharmacist license. Remember the ACPE reporting criteria from 2018?

 

[ExpressMaiL]

USC is serious 57k??? Yeah not worth it.

Yes and that doesn't include health insurance which is probably +2k/year so my original figure is lower than what it should be.

 

[ExpressMaiL]

I know a girl hooked up with plastic resident, popped a couple babies for this. She is deeply in debt, talking about 300-400k debt. In a couple years, she will be debt free and loaded.

What's the word they call Kylie and Kim? Thot?! There is always a way... (；￣Д￣)

Interesting, my friend went to Keck Plastic. Did she hook up with a Vietnamese doctor? haha...

 

[projektreverb]

Yes and that doesn't include health insurance which is probably +2k/year so my original figure is lower than what it should be.

Yeah no thanks, that’s just absurd.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

Just use PAYE option. Work for an independent and work out a deal with the owner to pay you 50k a year and get rest in yearly bonus. you'd pay about $300-400 a month for your loan. haha who knows what's gonna happen in 25 years... maybe the economy will crash and all your loans will be forgotten... lol

On a serious note, I'm no economist or financial expert, but from what I understand, if your loan amount is high, >250k, then it would be better to pay as little as you can and invest money somewhere else.