Is PA worth it?

[MidwestPAC]

Now NP is 2 years part time?

Just because you go to school for 3 years part time doesn't mean it is truly 3 years. Look at the credit hours and curriculum at Duke NP program. I will post a link and for all the programs you have around 48-49 credit hours and 600-700 clinical hours. That is not even 2 years of schooling in credit hours.

MSN Curricula

All students matriculating in the MSN Program are required to complete the four MSN core courses in the early semesters of their plans of study. All MSN core courses are offered online, with no on-campus requirements. MSN Required Core Courses Core Courses Credit Hours Nursing 580 (Nurse as...

nursing.duke.edu

If you get your DNP at Duke you will have to do an extra 35 credit hours totaling = 83-84 credit hours.

https://nursing.duke.edu/sites/default/files/documents/etc/duson_sample_dnp_mat_plan_-_postmsn_for_fall_term_entry.pdf

Compare to Duke's PA program: Pre-Clinical Studies | Department of Family Medicine and Community Health in the Duke University School of Medicine
In the pre-clinical year you have 58 credit hours alone and clinical year you have 51 credit hours totaling = 109 credit hours for a Master's.

Clinical Curriculum | Department of Family Medicine and Community Health in the Duke University School of Medicine

Courses of Instruction Refer to the Bulletin of the School of Medicine for full course descriptions.

fmch.duke.edu

PAs get more credit hours in graduate school then a DNP gets in all of his/her schooling. It is ~25 credit hours more of education at the graduate level and if the PA gets his/her doctorate for a DHSc is 60+ credit hours and for a DMSc 40+ credit hours with 1 year of clinical hours (with a physician).

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[762513]

Just because you go to school for 3 years part time doesn't mean it is truly 3 years. Look at the credit hours and curriculum at Duke NP program. I will post a link and for all the programs you have around 48-49 credit hours and 600-700 clinical hours. That is not even 2 years of schooling in credit hours.

MSN Curricula

All students matriculating in the MSN Program are required to complete the four MSN core courses in the early semesters of their plans of study. All MSN core courses are offered online, with no on-campus requirements. MSN Required Core Courses Core Courses Credit Hours Nursing 580 (Nurse as...

nursing.duke.edu

If you get your DNP at Duke you will have to do an extra 35 credit hours totaling = 83-84 credit hours.

https://nursing.duke.edu/sites/default/files/documents/etc/duson_sample_dnp_mat_plan_-_postmsn_for_fall_term_entry.pdf

Compare to Duke's PA program: Pre-Clinical Studies | Department of Family Medicine and Community Health in the Duke University School of Medicine
In the pre-clinical year you have 58 credit hours alone and clinical year you have 51 credit hours totaling = 109 credit hours for a Master's.

Clinical Curriculum | Department of Family Medicine and Community Health in the Duke University School of Medicine

Courses of Instruction Refer to the Bulletin of the School of Medicine for full course descriptions.

fmch.duke.edu

PAs get more credit hours in graduate school then a DNP gets in all of his/her schooling. It is ~25 credit hours more of education at the graduate level and if the PA gets his/her doctorate for a DHSc is 60+ credit hours and for a DMSc 40+ credit hours with 1 year of clinical hours (with a physician).

Did you go to NP school? Because if you didn’t, you don’t know how much credit hours on the page correlate to work in the classroom. The DNP dissertation credits are far, far more work than multiple courses combined.

I’m not going to get sucked into your circular logic. It’s amazing that with every post NP education gets worse and worse. It’s a clear sign of trolling. Pretty soon, NP’s won’t have ever gone to graduate school at all.

 

[MidwestPAC]

Did you go to NP school? Because if you didn’t, you don’t know how much credit hours on the page correlate to work in the classroom. The DNP dissertation credits are far, far more work than multiple courses combined.

I’m not going to get sucked into your circular logic. It’s amazing that with every post NP education gets worse and worse. It’s a clear sign of trolling. Pretty soon, NP’s won’t have ever gone to graduate school at all.

Why is it trolling when someone gives facts. Just because YOU might have spent longer on your DNP project doesn't mean you get more credit hours. The credits hours are calculated for a reason. See below.

http://www.lasc.edu/students/Credit%20Hour%20Definition%20for%20LASC.pdf

Why do I have to go to NP school to know how many credit hours correlate to classroom work? My wife went to NP school after I graduated PA school and I saw her online classroom daily. Why are you fighting so hard and not looking at FACTS. Your mind is so focused on not looking at the facts that you now want to give yourself more credit hours cause it took you longer to complete a project?

Do you find it disheartening that my masters program has a significant amount more credit hours than ANY DNP program out there.

 

[762513]

Why is it trolling when someone gives facts. Just because YOU might have spent longer on your DNP project doesn't mean you get more credit hours. The credits hours are calculated for a reason. See below.

http://www.lasc.edu/students/Credit%20Hour%20Definition%20for%20LASC.pdf

Why do I have to go to NP school to know how many credit hours correlate to classroom work? My wife went to NP school after I graduated PA school and I saw her online classroom daily. Why are you fighting so hard and not looking at FACTS. Your mind is so focused on not looking at the facts that you now want to give yourself more credit hours cause it took you longer to complete a project?

Do you find it disheartening that my masters program has a significant amount more credit hours than ANY DNP program out there.

You completely ignored my point and example that credit hours aren’t a good representation of effort spent in nursing graduate school. You’re a troll. You’ve been lying and trolling since your very first post on SDN. I’m going to block you.

 

[MidwestPAC]

You completely ignored my point and example that credit hours aren’t a good representation of effort spent in nursing graduate school. You’re a troll. You’ve been lying and trolling since your very first post on SDN. I’m going to block you.

Perfect. I will enjoy not talking with you.
It is sad when someone gets offended and must name call and tell them they are a liar to make themselves feel better.
If you really do have a DNP you must not have learned anything from the classes because I am only giving you facts and proof from one of the BEST reported NP programs in the country. You still don't want to believe it or say that their credit hours are not accurate.
PAs curriculum still doubles any masters level program and has 3-4 times the amount of clinical hours as well. Those are facts and something you cannot dispute. Now you can get mad and whine about it and block people cause you don't want to accept the truth but please do us all a favor and realize that NP education is not the same as it was and getting worse.

 

[FiremedicMike]

The standard for a profession is always set on the lowest common denominator. For NPs that is the standard that A LOT of the school require < 700- 800 clinical hours. Same for the MD/DO, they have to go to school for at least 130 weeks. For PAs we have to go to school for 100 or more weeks and do at least 2,500 clinical hours. Do you NOT see the trend here. The standard is always set for the MOST COMMON.

I'm going to make one last effort at engaging you, because I'm genuinely curious on your steadfast comparison of 2500 clinical hours versus the bare minimum 500 hours. I'm not here to debate whether or not 500 hours is accurate, because honestly I don't know.

So anyways, lets say the 500 versus 2500 is correct. My understanding of PA school is that the clinical year is set up similar to an M3/M4 style rotation of all the specialties, and I believe I've read somewhere that PA rotations are 6 weeks. This means, realistically, a PA student would spend between 240 hours in a speciality on an easier rotation on up to say, 480 on a ball-buster, then move on to the next specialty.

It's my understanding, and again I may be wrong because I'm the only pre-(undecided) nontrad here, that NP school is focused on the speciality that the NP student will test and subsequently work in. PA students are definitely more well rounded than NP students in this case, but if we're breaking logic down to bare bones and based on this supposed number of 500 hours, wouldn't an NP student actually have MORE hours in their chosen specialty than a PA student?

 

[FiremedicMike]

on second thought.

 

[pamac]

The standard for a profession is always set on the lowest common denominator. For NPs that is the standard that A LOT of the school require < 700- 800 clinical hours. Same for the MD/DO, they have to go to school for at least 130 weeks. For PAs we have to go to school for 100 or more weeks and do at least 2,500 clinical hours. Do you NOT see the trend here. The standard is always set for the MOST COMMON.

P.S. are you seriously arguing over a 100 clinical hours (500 vs 600 hrs). If you are trying to get that number up by any means that will still not help your situation that NPs are in. Please show evidence of MOST schools requiring > 1,000 clinical hours.

It’s not the 100 hours, it’s the disingenuousness of constantly touting the lowest numbers, especially in conversations where the answer in his mind is to always revert back to that argument. An easy example is if someone is asking about becoming an NP. Boatswain comes into the conversation like an old Victorian lady, clutching his pearls and exclaiming breathlessly “But they go to school for 450 hours part time, and are all direct entry new grads with no nursing experience, and MOST of the schools are for profit degree mills!”

The most helpful answer would instead be “go to good schools, get good experience”. But boatswains approach betrays a chip on his shoulder that takes precedence in his mind over a sense of proportion. It’s like being around one of your friends who got dumped, and having him freakout every time his ex’s name is mentioned, while insisting everyone else hate her as much as he says he does. In reality, everyone knows he would love to get back with her. Boatswain is like a scorned lover. Now you are too. It’s gotten to be so rote for him to take that approach that you have to wonder if he were to see a life threatening medical condition, would every assessment conclude the patient is going to die... not the possibility, but the actuality of it. That’s why we chuckle. He says he’s married to an NP as well, so he’s got that covered in an argument every time, just like you are.

 

[pamac]

I'm going to make one last effort at engaging you, because I'm genuinely curious on your steadfast comparison of 2500 clinical hours versus the bare minimum 500 hours. I'm not here to debate whether or not 500 hours is accurate, because honestly I don't know.

So anyways, lets say the 500 versus 2500 is correct. My understanding of PA school is that the clinical year is set up similar to an M3/M4 style rotation of all the specialties, and I believe I've read somewhere that PA rotations are 6 weeks. This means, realistically, a PA student would spend between 240 hours in a speciality on an easier rotation on up to say, 480 on a ball-buster, then move on to the next specialty.

It's my understanding, and again I may be wrong because I'm the only pre-(undecided) nontrad here, that NP school is focused on the speciality that the NP student will test and subsequently work in. PA students are definitely more well rounded than NP students in this case, but if we're breaking logic down to bare bones and based on this supposed number of 500 hours, wouldn't an NP student actually have MORE hours in their chosen specialty than a PA student?

Every time things are compared by haters, it’s always comparing themselves to family practice, which would be fine to look at if it wasn’t always the same bat they try to beat other NP specialties with. You saw it when someone tried to suggest that the PAs that have no psyche rotations, or even one six week stretch would be preferable to a psyche NP like myself just by virtue of all the other rotations PAs do.

Nobody has ever suggested on here that PA training wasn’t robust. Credit is given where credit is due, but its never reciprocated. Another analogy is the friend who shows up to your party who always gets mad when he drinks, and always drinks when he shows up. Everyone knows how the night is going to go, and sure enough, he’s over peeing in the plant and starting to get loud 60 minutes in. Boatswain isn’t a generalist, he specializes, and his specialty is wiping his butt on your linen when he comes over because he can’t be bothered to think critically about where the TP is.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

I'm genuinely curious on your steadfast comparison of 2500 clinical hours versus the bare minimum 500 hours. I'm not here to debate whether or not 500 hours is accurate, because honestly I don't know.

So anyways, lets say the 500 versus 2500 is correct. My understanding of PA school is that the clinical year is set up similar to an M3/M4 style rotation of all the specialties, and I believe I've read somewhere that PA rotations are 6 weeks. This means, realistically, a PA student would spend between 240 hours in a speciality on an easier rotation on up to say, 480 on a ball-buster, then move on to the next specialty.

I'll try to put down the old lady accoutrements that PAMAC's twisted mind dreams of me in and try to answer this.

500 hrs vs 2500 hrs. These are minimum standards, which is what we can safely assume each NP or PA had in their formal graduate education.

Can a practicing NP be "better" than a PA, or even a doc? Sure, but this is the standard. Just like a Firefighter 1 has different training standards than FF2, yet I'm sure you have worked with FF1s who you would trust more than some FF2s despite the greater training.

With the specialty rotations....PAs have broad requirements for their core rotations, AND have elective rotations. EVERY PA student gets Surgery, FP, cards, women's health, EM, and PEDS. And THEN they get electives in whatever we choose....like psych.

So a PA student who wants to specialize in psych (or whatever) gets the broad medical education, PLUS can do a rotation (and sometimes two or more) in the specialty, thus effectively getting more clinical hours in a specialty than the "specialist trained" NPs. Make sense?

 

[FiremedicMike]

I'll try to put down the old lady accoutrements that PAMAC's twisted mind dreams of me in and try to answer this.

500 hrs vs 2500 hrs. These are minimum standards, which is what we can safely assume each NP or PA had in their formal graduate education.

Can a practicing NP be "better" than a PA, or even a doc? Sure, but this is the standard. Just like a Firefighter 1 has different training standards than FF2, yet I'm sure you have worked with FF1s who you would trust more than some FF2s despite the greater training.

With the specialty rotations....PAs have broad requirements for their core rotations, AND have elective rotations. EVERY PA student gets Surgery, FP, cards, women's health, EM, and PEDS. And THEN they get electives in whatever we choose....like psych.

So a PA student who wants to specialize in psych (or whatever) gets the broad medical education, PLUS can do a rotation (and sometimes two or more) in the specialty, thus effectively getting more clinical hours in a specialty than the "specialist trained" NPs. Make sense?

It does make sense, but I don't feel it addressed the question I actually posed.

Does 2500 hours of training across several different specialties really make one any better than someone who spent 500 hours in a specific speciality, provided they graduate and practice in that specialty?

 

[FiremedicMike]

It does make sense, but I don't feel it addressed the question I actually posed.

Does 2500 hours of training across several different specialties really make one any better than someone who spent 500 hours in a specific speciality, provided they graduate and practice in that specialty?

And to go further down that rabbit hole, would a new grad ACNP who went to a good program and did say, 1000mhours of clinical training focused on ICU practice be inherently better than a new grad PA student who did 2500 hours of clinical training, only 6 weeks of which were spent in an ICU?

Not challenging, just playing devils advocate here..

 

[Splenda88]

Well, 1000 hrs... That is supposed to make it better

 

[FiremedicMike]

Well, 1000 hrs... That suppose to make it better

I’m not saying 1000 is a magical number and I’m certainly not comparing it to a physician residency, merely discussing the “2500 PA > 500 NP” tangent..

 

[Splenda88]

I’m not saying 1000 is a magical number and I’m certainly not comparing it to a physician residency, merely discussing the “2500 PA > 500 NP” tangent..

I don't know. I just finished PGY1 with over 3500 hrs in and still feel like I am a dumb/ass. I just can't I imagine practicing medicine after 2 months of residency w/o supervision. There must be something magic about NP rotation.

 

[FiremedicMike]

I don't know. I just finished PGY1 with over 3500 hrs in and still feel like I am a dumb/ass. I just can't I imagine practicing medicine after 2 months of residency w/o supervision. There must be something magic about NP rotation.

Frankly - I think both NP and PA lost their original vision along the way. NP was a way for nurse ratchet with her decades of nursing to use her knowledge better.. PA was a way for combat corpsmen and experienced street medics to advance their practice.

Somewhere along the way, having 15+ years of direct patient contact became less important to the midlevel model, and that’s why I think that’s why we're where we are..

 

[Splenda88]

Frankly - I think both NP and PA lost their original vision along the way. NP was a way for nurse ratchet with her decades of nursing to use her knowledge better.. PA was a way for combat corpsmen and experienced street medics to advance their practice.

Somewhere along the way, having 15+ years of direct patient contact became less important to the midlevel model, and that’s why I think that’s why we're where we are..

There are about 17 US states that won't even entertain giving me a license to practice medicine even with supervision right now and yet NP/PA have no issues practicing medicine in these states. There are a handful of states (Alaska for instance) that I am not even eligible to get a medical license, and yet NPs have independent practice right in these states... Seriously!

 

[Cryc_to_the_point]

I don't know. I just finished PGY1 with over 3500 hrs in and still feel like I am a dumb/ass. I just can't I imagine practicing medicine after 2 months of residency w/o supervision. There must be something magic about NP rotation.

There is something magic, hubris. I'm fascinated that someone would consider practicing solo with less hours than my paramedic internship (750).

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Does 2500 hours of training across several different specialties really make one any better than someone who spent 500 hours in a specific speciality, provided they graduate and practice in that specialty?

Yes. While specialization is important in medicine, understanding how your specialty fits in the whole system helps the patients.

This is why medical school gives you a broad background, then specialize in residency.

I think there are some good ACNP programs.

 

[pamac]

I don’t know anyone that has hit the market to practice solo as a new grad. Not even my friends with >10 years as ICU nurses are looking to do that. A lot of NPs like myself are marveling at the fixation regarding something that isn’t typical at all. My job search out of school involved looking for the best environment to thrive in. I wasn’t, and am still not interested in losing my license for the sake of being casual with my scope. I known nurses that are still working bedside because the market is a little tight for FNPs, and they are still looking for the right first job, and we are independent in my state. No consideration is being given to the fact that the Board of Nursing follows up on every complaint. It’s not a rubber stamp. I know of physicians who have been sexually inappropriate with patients and had less sanctions placed upon them than NPs who have screwed up on relatively minor issues. I’ve mentioned over and over again that independence for me has more to do with more favorable regulations than rolling solo. Both places I work have collaboration available, but I come into work as someone that isn’t hindered by having a formal subservience to a physician who may or may not supervise me closely at all.

 

[FiremedicMike]

There is something magic, hubris. I'm fascinated that someone would consider practicing solo with less hours than my paramedic internship (750).

NP school builds off RN school, which has more clinical hours than paramedic school.

 

[762513]

There is something magic, hubris. I'm fascinated that someone would consider practicing solo with less hours than my paramedic internship (750).

Paramedic “clinical” hours consist of starting IV’s, sleeping at the fire station, shadowing nurses, and doing a couple intubations. Those hours are nothing to flex about whatsoever. I know because I am a paramedic myself.

Furthermore, we have PA students at my job; they mostly shadow, follow tiny panels, and write very poor notes. They aren’t curing cancer.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

NP school builds off RN school, which has more clinical hours than paramedic school.

All of life builds off of previous schooling/education/experiences.

I think a big difference in paramedic schooling and experience versus nursing schooling/experience is the autonomy is built in right from the beginning. The paramedic is trained to show up, evaluate independently, then choose the right protocols independently. Whereas nursing is more dependent upon the provider making the assessments and then following provider orders.

Of course there is overlap, and before I get jumped on, I'm not suggesting that all nurses do is follow orders.

 

[FiremedicMike]

All of life builds off of previous schooling/education/experiences.

I think a big difference in paramedic schooling and experience versus nursing schooling/experience is the autonomy is built in right from the beginning. The paramedic is trained to show up, evaluate independently, then choose the right protocols independently. Whereas nursing is more dependent upon the provider making the assessments and then following provider orders.

Of course there is overlap, and before I get jumped on, I'm not suggesting that all nurses do is follow orders.

I actually agree with you, I feel paramedic experience is better in terms of developing the "diagnose and treat" provider mindset than nursing.. On the flip side, I would imagine that nursing experience is better in terms of the groundwork of physiology.. Both have pluses and minuses, I suppose it's up to the individual to determine which skill set would take them more time to develop and then focus on that pathway for healthcare experience. Of course.. that's in an ideal world.

 

[MidwestPAC]

It does make sense, but I don't feel it addressed the question I actually posed.

Does 2500 hours of training across several different specialties really make one any better than someone who spent 500 hours in a specific speciality, provided they graduate and practice in that specialty?

Of course it does make you better trained. As posted above, NPs think we are always comparing ourselves to family practice, but I know PAs that want to go into surgery or ICU so they will do several extra rotations in that specialty and then have the option to do a residency and/or take the CAQ exam. Just like the psych NP above states that their clinical rotations are a lot more than my psych rotation and if you see the post about this yes the NP might in general get more psych rotation hours than myself, but if a PA wants to go into psych then they will do extra rotations in that area which will for sure beat the 600 hours that most psych NPs do (Duke's NP program). Also, if a psych NP does not rotate in various other specialties then how can they understand and assess the "entire person?" Isn't this what NPs state why they are different than other providers?

 

[MidwestPAC]

NP school builds off RN school, which has more clinical hours than paramedic school.

RN school doesn't really mean much if you have not practiced as an RN for years and years. For example, my wife had several years of RN practice on cardiology floor, but she does not work in cardiology. Her words to me that her experience really did not mean much to her NP practice (outpatient) except how to talk to patients. Even the flow of the hospital did not help her in her outpatient practice today. Even after 1 year (and she is in a very specialized field with some family medicine here and there) she struggles with the easiest things that I see in family medicine. It was because her school did not prepare her that well and her rotations were limited on what she could see. Most NPs cannot do hardly any procedures (at least in family practice, the ones I have worked with) and frankly are afraid because they don't know why they are doing it, don't know the anatomy, and wasn't even exposed to the medications or instruments that are utilized in practice.

 

[MidwestPAC]

Paramedic “clinical” hours consist of starting IV’s, sleeping at the fire station, shadowing nurses, and doing a couple intubations. Those hours are nothing to flex about whatsoever. I know because I am a paramedic myself.

Furthermore, we have PA students at my job; they mostly shadow, follow tiny panels, and write very poor notes. They aren’t curing cancer.

They are students like medical students and NP students. We are start somewhere and have all wrote poor notes. It takes time and the more hours you put in the better. We are talking about graduate NPs and PAs. I have worked with several NPs that after 5 years of experience write piss poor notes and cannot take care of a type 1 diabetic, they just refer out, just for 1 simple example.

 

[FiremedicMike]

Of course it does make you better trained. As posted above, NPs think we are always comparing ourselves to family practice, but I know PAs that want to go into surgery or ICU so they will do several extra rotations in that specialty and then have the option to do a residency and/or take the CAQ exam. Just like the psych NP above states that their clinical rotations are a lot more than my psych rotation and if you see the post about this yes the NP might in general get more psych rotation hours than myself, but if a PA wants to go into psych then they will do extra rotations in that area which will for sure beat the 600 hours that most psych NPs do (Duke's NP program). Also, if a psych NP does not rotate in various other specialties then how can they understand and assess the "entire person?" Isn't this what NPs state why they are different than other providers?

So now we're comparing a PA student who took extra elective rotations to an NP student who did not? mmmmmk

RN school doesn't really mean much if you have not practiced as an RN for years and years. For example, my wife had several years of RN practice on cardiology floor, but she does not work in cardiology. Her words to me that her experience really did not mean much to her NP practice (outpatient) except how to talk to patients. Even the flow of the hospital did not help her in her outpatient practice today. Even after 1 year (and she is in a very specialized field with some family medicine here and there) she struggles with the easiest things that I see in family medicine. It was because her school did not prepare her that well and her rotations were limited on what she could see. Most NPs cannot do hardly any procedures (at least in family practice, the ones I have worked with) and frankly are afraid because they don't know why they are doing it, don't know the anatomy, and wasn't even exposed to the medications or instruments that are utilized in practice.

Someday I want you to reflect on how absurd the bolded statement is.

I am curious how "your wife" would react if she saw you on here carrying on about how much smarter you are than every NP who ever lived..

They are students like medical students and NP students. We are start somewhere and have all wrote poor notes. It takes time and the more hours you put in the better. We are talking about graduate NPs and PAs. I have worked with several NPs that after 5 years of experience write piss poor notes and cannot take care of a type 1 diabetic, they just refer out, just for 1 simple example.

So students are students and have an opportunity to learn, unless of course it doesn't fit into the argument at hand, as above?

Listen, if you really are a PA, which I am highly doubting at this point, I certainly hope you approach the treatment of your patients with less selection/confirmation bias than you do on this subforum. For being so dramatically smarter than everyone else in the room, you sure don't debate like a well rounded, educated individual.

With that, I'm done acknowledging your constantly changing argument. You do not want to debate, you want to dominate the conversation, and I'm done playing. You win, you won the internet, congrats.

 

[MidwestPAC]

So now we're comparing a PA student who took extra elective rotations to an NP student who did not? mmmmmk



Someday I want you to reflect on how absurd the bolded statement is.

I am curious how "your wife" would react if she saw you on here carrying on about how much smarter you are than every NP who ever lived..



So students are students and have an opportunity to learn, unless of course it doesn't fit into the argument at hand, as above?

Listen, if you really are a PA, which I am highly doubting at this point, I certainly hope you approach the treatment of your patients with less selection/confirmation bias than you do on this subforum. For being so dramatically smarter than everyone else in the room, you sure don't debate like a well rounded, educated individual.

With that, I'm done acknowledging your constantly changing argument. You do not want to debate, you want to dominate the conversation, and I'm done playing. You win, you won the internet, congrats.

I am not comparing a PA student that took elective rotations, you have a set standard and then you have take what elective rotation you think you might go into. How is that a bad think? That is required by PA schools and again that is why NPs suffer cause they don't have training like we do.

I have never once stated I am smarter, my wife is actually smarter than I am, she just got inferior training and now is struggling to get to a place where she should have been out of school. I have never said NPs cannot learn the same information I have learned in school, I know they can but they got to put the work in, which is harder when you are working full time. So, from what I have seen it takes NPs several years to gain the confidence and education I got after 6 months out of school. The MAIN issue I have when NPs is their laws/rights/independence, they are NOT ready for this out of school and it is very scary for them to be practicing the way they are because I know the deficiencies they have in their education. I know I got a better education than my wife, but struggled up that hill after I graduated, it was very scary to watch my wife do it and luckily we had each other so she can succeed in her career.

Yes, students off all career paths have to learn, PAMAC is acting like PAs are terrible not writers cause a PA student sucks at it.

 

[Cryc_to_the_point]

Paramedic “clinical” hours consist of starting IV’s, sleeping at the fire station, shadowing nurses, and doing a couple intubations. Those hours are nothing to flex about whatsoever. I know because I am a paramedic myself.

Furthermore, we have PA students at my job; they mostly shadow, follow tiny panels, and write very poor notes. They aren’t curing cancer.

All of life builds off of previous schooling/education/experiences.

I think a big difference in paramedic schooling and experience versus nursing schooling/experience is the autonomy is built in right from the beginning. The paramedic is trained to show up, evaluate independently, then choose the right protocols independently. Whereas nursing is more dependent upon the provider making the assessments and then following provider orders.

Of course there is overlap, and before I get jumped on, I'm not suggesting that all nurses do is follow orders.

I'm not "flexing." When I graduated my feedback was that far more clinical exposure would be beneficial. I'm illustrating how laughably low NP program clinical hours are.

I should add that my program was a bachelor's program, not some firehouse crash course. We had the same exact pre-requisites as our BSN program with the addition of 3 courses. I did clinical rotations in the ER, ICU, and OR for a year before being turned loose for my internship. I'm not so sure BSN nurses have any more "clinical," time in school than I did. Further, it showed in stark detail that no level of experience as a nurse would ever be a substitute for clinician education because some of the best nurses I worked with (truly wonderful people and professionals) were excellent doers, but knew next to nothing about the underlying why.

I don't think my experience handling complex emergencies more or less alone in an austere environment qualified me to need anything less than the full medical school education and subsequent residency before I practice so I'm baffled why nurses are so arrogant as to think their nursing experience can substitute for a thorough clinician's education.

 

[762513]

I'm not "flexing." When I graduated my feedback was that far more clinical exposure would be beneficial. I'm illustrating how laughably low NP program clinical hours are.

I should add that my program was a bachelor's program, not some firehouse crash course. We had the same exact pre-requisites as our BSN program with the addition of 3 courses. I did clinical rotations in the ER, ICU, and OR for a year before being turned loose for my internship. I'm not so sure BSN nurses have any more "clinical," time in school than I did. Further, it showed in stark detail that no level of experience as a nurse would ever be a substitute for clinician education because some of the best nurses I worked with (truly wonderful people and professionals) were excellent doers, but knew next to nothing about the underlying why.

I don't think my experience handling complex emergencies more or less alone in an austere environment qualified me to need anything less than the full medical school education and subsequent residency before I practice so I'm baffled why nurses are so arrogant as to think their nursing experience can substitute for a thorough clinician's education.

I respect your opinion, and paramedics have a ton of great experience, however, I taught clinical nursing at a top rated private university and I went to an excellent paramedic program, and paramedic clinical hours pale in comparison to what nursing students get on the floor.,

I just wanted to voice the opinion that in hours comparisons 1 hour of medic training doesn’t equal 1 hour of RN training nor does 1 hour of RN training equal 1 hour of PA training. I had over 500 hours at a fire department alone running 911 ALS, but the total amount of time I was actually with a patient was maybe 75 of those hours. That’s not a knock, it’s just a unavoidable reality of paramedic education.

 

[pamac]

Yes, students off all career paths have to learn, PAMAC is acting like PAs are terrible not writers cause a PA student sucks at it.

Dude, you may be the best note writer on the planet, but you are terrible at paying attention to detail because I didn’t say that....it was Iknowimnotadoctor.

Slow down, take a breath.

 

[Cryc_to_the_point]

I respect your opinion, and paramedics have a ton of great experience, however, I taught clinical nursing at a top rated private university and I went to an excellent paramedic program, and paramedic clinical hours pale in comparison to what nursing students get on the floor.,

I just wanted to voice the opinion that in hours comparisons 1 hour of medic training doesn’t equal 1 hour of RN training nor does 1 hour of RN training equal 1 hour of PA training. I had over 500 hours at a fire department alone running 911 ALS, but the total amount of time I was actually with a patient was maybe 75 of those hours. That’s not a knock, it’s just a unavoidable reality of paramedic education.

Did your paramedic program confer a degree? I think you may have a bit skewed view on what nursing students vs paramedic students typically experience. Then again, half of my in hospital time was spent following physicians, not nurses, and I know that's atypical.

 

[762513]

Did your paramedic program confer a degree? I think you may have a bit skewed view on what nursing students vs paramedic students typically experience. Then again, half of my in hospital time was spent following physicians, not nurses, and I know that's atypical.

It conferred an associates degree. For example, my nursing students had responsibility for their patients for their entire 8 hour clinical day, so 8 hours of patient contact. Paramedic hours on the box, which is the majority of the hours, you may spend 2 of 8 hours with patient responsibility. 1 hour is not equal to 1 hour, and can’t be compared, much less the amount of responsibility between the two roles.

Respectfully, someone who has taught and holds a doctorate in nursing and has gone through all levels of EMS training most likely has a more accurate view than someone who has not had those experiences.

 

[Cryc_to_the_point]

I think your position is leading to some glaring bias. Is a nursing student's "responsibility," comparable to someone who is actually responsible for clinical decision making for that patient? Obviously not.

 

[Cryc_to_the_point]

But back to the point, what on earth does nursing experience offer that justifies the laughable requirements for NPs compared to others like PAs and physicians?

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Everyone knows the "Doctorate of nursi ng" thing is a damn joke. It just requires more papers on nursing leadership theories, and a capstone project on nursing management theories, and an extra $30k.

 

[FiremedicMike]

I think your position is leading to some glaring bias. Is a nursing student's "responsibility," comparable to someone who is actually responsible for clinical decision making for that patient? Obviously not.

But back to the point, what on earth does nursing experience offer that justifies the laughable requirements for NPs compared to others like PAs and physicians?

Pot.. kettle..

Is there really any value to this thread anymore? Seems like it's just a **** measuring contest at this point..

 

[762513]

Pot.. kettle..

Is there really any value to this thread anymore? Seems like it's just a **** measuring contest at this point..

It really is. I’m actually deleting my account here, this was the thread that finally illustrated the advice I offer to prospective NP’s isn’t worth the aggravation of needing to constantly defend my profession from PA’s/med students with an unending ax to grind.

 

[Splenda88]

Do DNP or Ph.D. nurses call themselves doctors in clinical settings?

 

[pamac]

Do DNP or Ph.D. nurses call themselves doctors in clinical settings?

Those that do seem to be bad news for a lot of ancillary reasons apart from just the aspect of introducing obscurity to vulnerable patients.

 

[Splenda88]

Those that do seem to be bad news for a lot of ancillary reasons apart from just the aspect of introducing obscurity to vulnerable patients.

What's the ANA stand on that whole issue?

 

[pamac]

What's the ANA stand on that whole issue?

I don’t know. I don’t like everything they like, so it would be hard for me to want to be lockstep with them on this if they were for it. I won’t refer to a DNP “Doctor” in a clinical setting, and I’ll tell any DNP who has a problem with it why I won’t do it. That was true back when I was a nurse, and it’s true today. I could see myself calling one “doctor-of-nursing-practice Smith” to highlight the absurdity if it were pushed upon me.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Now NP is 2 years part time?

Yes, most NPs go for two years, and they often work full time while taking those classes. While finishing in 2 years probably requires "full time" status for college, the light coursework is really like part time (thus allowing to work full time) .

I dont know any NPs who didnt work full time, or near full time, while pursuing their NP.

I know a few PAs who worked PRN, picking up a shift or two a month, during the first semester of PA school. They all quit after that because of the courseload.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Do DNP or Ph.D. nurses call themselves doctors in clinical settings

Only if they want to be laughed at by everyone around them.

PAs with doctorates shouldnt either.

 

[deleted92121]

I’m non-trad medic gunning for med school. Work with a lot of great clinicians including PAs and NPs. After some time, both are on reasonably equal footing with each having strengths and weaknesses.

Now I only offer some anecdotal input but my wife is completing her FNP. In her words, not mine, she finds the curriculum underwhelming. Too much busy work and fluff. Courses that pertain not a bit to practice. Her clinicals are a mixed bag. She attends a mid-tier program with online didactics (though there are in-class components). Overall, she admits the learning curve may be greater an RN who goes PA as opposed to NP. But it works for her and our family.

But I would like to point out that in the 21st century, we do have access to solid, online educational models with proctored, timed exams and so on. Even medical students in many places don’t attend class. Sit at home and watch videos, review powerpoints, and read Costanzo. Take an in-class exam and repeat. So I will never denigrate online learning IF done correctly.

 

[MidwestPAC]

I’m non-trad medic gunning for med school. Work with a lot of great clinicians including PAs and NPs. After some time, both are on reasonably equal footing with each having strengths and weaknesses.

Now I only offer some anecdotal input but my wife is completing her FNP. In her words, not mine, she finds the curriculum underwhelming. Too much busy work and fluff. Courses that pertain not a bit to practice. Her clinicals are a mixed bag. She attends a mid-tier program with online didactics (though there are in-class components). Overall, she admits the learning curve may be greater an RN who goes PA as opposed to NP. But it works for her and our family.

But I would like to point out that in the 21st century, we do have access to solid, online educational models with proctored, timed exams and so on. Even medical students in many places don’t attend class. Sit at home and watch videos, review powerpoints, and read Costanzo. Take an in-class exam and repeat. So I will never denigrate online learning IF done correctly.

I agree, if done correctly. This is not true for most online NP programs. If you don't know, my wife is a FNP, she took 95% of her test at home "with a browser blocker" but doesn't mean a student could not have their phone/tablet/another laptop or books out during the exam. There was not other way to see if they were cheating. That is the issue with most of these online NP programs is they allow this crap to happen. I hardly doubt the Yale online PA program allows crap like this. Nothing wrong with studying at home, but take your test at a testing center and/or the brick and mortar school, butt in the seat.

 

[Ho0v-man]

^^I took online courses in undergrad and had tests through proctor U. A person literally stares at you the entire time through the camera as you test to make sure you don’t cheat. That’s perfectly fine and an example of online education done right. But I’ve never even seen my NP friends have a lock down browser and there’s nothing in the syllabus against using outside sources or friends. Just paying for a degree

 

[MidwestPAC]

^^I took online courses in undergrad and had tests through proctor U. A person literally stares at you the entire time through the camera as you test to make sure you don’t cheat. That’s perfectly fine and an example of online education done right. But I’ve never even seen my NP friends have a lock down browser and there’s nothing in the syllabus against using outside sources or friends. Just paying for a degree

I saw my wife do her NP training and they did have a lock down browser, but no one staring at you. There wasn't even a time limit on most of the test. What stops a NP student from having another computer open/resources/phone, etc...

Again, if done right then I am 100% fine with online education, but there has to be someone monitoring these people.

 

[deleted92121]

I actually did a good bit of my schooling online and parts of my SMP this way. In-class intensives and proctored exams with time limits. Hardest thing I’ve done thus far. Love the format and how I learn best. Sitting in class does nothing for me but give me a book and objectives, I’m golden.