Is NYCPM the lowest pod school?

[daryoush85]

hey i was curious if NYCPM is the lowest pod school? b/c everyone keeps on talkin down upon it. I reasoned to go there b/c it's the oldest, is affiliated with good NY hospitals(columbia, mt. sinnai, beth isreal), and that rich DPM levine went there.

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[JEWmongous]

It's indepedent and not affiliated with any MD/DO school which is not a postive thing for me personally. They boast about clinic numbers but I understand its majority pallative care anyway with few DPM's doing rearfoot cases (and no ankle as its not in the scope of practice). The facilities itself are pretty crappy when compared to other pod schools (especially with the new OCPM move and building of Barry's new facilities). I don't think that age means much in terms how "good" a school is. DMU is about 26 years old and is "ranked" highly while having nearly perfect board scores. AZPOD is highly "ranked" as well and only about 4 years old.

Finally, what does anything about "rich DPM Levine" have to do with NYCPM and its reputation as a school? I hope you don't mean Louis Levine the CEO, he is not even a DPM (CEO and president of NYCPM).

 

[bdaddyjolley]

It's indepedent and not affiliated with any MD/DO school which is not a postive thing for me personally. They boast about clinic numbers but I understand its majority pallative care anyway with few DPM's doing rearfoot cases (and no ankle as its not in the scope of practice). The facilities itself are pretty crappy when compared to other pod schools (especially with the new OCPM move and building of Barry's new facilities). I don't think that age means much in terms how "good" a school is. DMU is about 26 years old and is "ranked" highly while having nearly perfect board scores. AZPOD is highly "ranked" as well and only about 4 years old.

Finally, what does anything about "rich DPM Levine" have to do with NYCPM and its reputation as a school? I hope you don't mean Louis Levine the CEO, he is not even a DPM (CEO and president of NYCPM).

All the schools see a good load of pallative care. Some of the schools that don't receive as many patients as others like DMU and Scholl tell everyone that the size of the clinic doesn't matter because bigger only means more pallative care while smaller means less but that simply is not true if you talk percentage wise. A 4th year DMU student told me they see a lot of pallative care too even though they get lower numbers. That is why a lot of students from these schools say the real training starts in residency because they don't see a lot of diverse cases in their own clinics while you will see them in other school clinics. How do you think they have so much time to dominate these forums? They go on SDN while in clinic. That is what a 4th year student said. SOme more proof also is Dr. Feelgood used to dominate these forums but since he started externships I bet he is too busy now to be one here.

I have heard NYCPM does see some really diverse cases just like Temple does because of where the schools are located and the volume of patients they receive. Like Krabmas has said, even though she didn't think NYCPM was the greatest school, she would still go there because she saw awesome cases in the clinic she wouldn't have seen in other places.

 

[jonwill]

All the schools see a good load of pallative care. Some of the schools that don't receive as many patients as others like DMU and Scholl tell everyone that the size of the clinic doesn't matter because bigger only means more pallative care while smaller means less but that simply is not true if you talk percentage wise. A 4th year DMU student told me they see a lot of pallative care too even though they get lower numbers. That is why a lot of students from these schools say the real training starts in residency because they don't see a lot of diverse cases in their own clinics while you will see them in other school clinics. How do you think they have so much time to dominate these forums? They go on SDN while in clinic. That is what the President of the APMSA said who is a 4th year DMU student. SOme more proof also is Dr. Feelgood used to dominate these forums but since he started externships I bet he is too busy now to be one here.

I have heard NYCPM does see some really diverse cases just like Temple does because of where the schools are located and the volume of patients they receive. Like Krabmas has said, even though she didn't think NYCPM was the greatest school, she would still go there because she saw awesome cases in the clinic she wouldn't have seen in other places.

Wow, those are some pretty bold statements based on some pretty big assumptions!

-I'd be willing to bet that DMU clinics are as diverse as any of the schools and there is a fair amount of palliative care at some of the clinics while there is none at others. The "low numbers" thing is a myth and misconception. While there is a lower patient volume, when compared to other schools, DMU has only a quarter to half of the students in the clinics. So while volume is lower, DMU students see just as many patients as anyone else. If DMU had Temple or NY's clinic volume, DMU students would see twice the amount of patients that your students see (and would never go home)! I had very good clinical exposure at DMU. Some of it was palliative care but I saw plenty of bunions, neuromas, pf, fx's, id, etc.

-The real training starts in residency? Yea, pretty much it does! But this is only something that you realize after the fact and I don't think there is a resident or attending on this forum that wouldn't agree with this statement (independent of where they graduated from). That isn't to say that you don't learn a lot in school, nor is it intended to be insulting towards any program. School is for the basics. When I graduated, I felt comfortable with injections, avulsions, orthotics, etc and my overall exam/diagnosis abilities. I had even done some simple surgery (amputations, hammertoes, etc). And I'd say that is "par" for a student graduating from any of the programs. But when compared with my first 6 months of residency, I am absolutely amazed. The learning curve is truly unreal.

Think of it this way: when you graduate from school, no one will expect much of you other than to know the basics. When you finish residency, you will be expected to function as an independent physician and surgeon. I think that is what people mean when they say "The real training begins in residency".

 

[densmore22]

All the schools see a good load of pallative care. Some of the schools that don't receive as many patients as others like DMU and Scholl tell everyone that the size of the clinic doesn't matter because bigger only means more pallative care while smaller means less but that simply is not true if you talk percentage wise. A 4th year DMU student told me they see a lot of pallative care too even though they get lower numbers. That is why a lot of students from these schools say the real training starts in residency because they don't see a lot of diverse cases in their own clinics while you will see them in other school clinics. How do you think they have so much time to dominate these forums? They go on SDN while in clinic. That is what the President of the APMSA said who is a 4th year DMU student. SOme more proof also is Dr. Feelgood used to dominate these forums but since he started externships I bet he is too busy now to be one here.

I have heard NYCPM does see some really diverse cases just like Temple does because of where the schools are located and the volume of patients they receive. Like Krabmas has said, even though she didn't think NYCPM was the greatest school, she would still go there because she saw awesome cases in the clinic she wouldn't have seen in other places.

Oh brother, here we go again. I don't get all these attacks on DMU this year on SDN, must be this years theme.

 

[EuroPhysician]

I don't know if its the lowest ranked school, the California College of Podiatric Medicine scaled itself down considerably. I think DMU and Scholl are supposed to be the most respected Pod schools.

 

[Feli]

.... I think DMU and Scholl are supposed to be the most respected Pod schools.

This would be tough to argue against^, but you can succeed or fail at any pod school. Any school has professors and textbooks that give the basic knowledge, and they all have a library full of the journal articles you can read to learn more. It's more about finding the one that's a good fit for you and working hard there; that will get you a lot further than just automatically choosing the school with the "best rep" and finding out too late that it's not a good fit for you at all. They all have different strengths and weaknesses (facilities, basic sciences, board pass rate, local pod clinics and patients, hospital rotation affiliations, research, etc).

Most good residencies will take a quality student from any school. You want a diversity of ideas and different ways of thinking. The schools wouldn't be accredited if they weren't able to give you the tools and knowledge that you need, and good students come from every program. I've encountered some very impressive residents from NY just as I have from every other school (except AZ since they're still too new).

I think the isolated status of OH and NY schools is a bit of a concern; the fact that OH recently chose to stay isolated instead of become integrated is a real head-scratcher. I'm not saying you can't get a fine education at a stand-alone school, but being integrated on a major university campus is a bonus for students and the profession overall IMO. You get more and better resources, dual degrees, many other students to meet for more of a collegiate experience, more full-time faculty, etc etc etc. The main things that being integrated helps a pod program achieve are exposure and financial stability, and that's what most podiatry programs need the most.

 

[bdaddyjolley]

Wow, those are some pretty bold statements based on some pretty big assumptions!

-I'd be willing to bet that DMU clinics are as diverse as any of the schools and there is a fair amount of palliative care at some of the clinics while there is none at others. The "low numbers" thing is a myth and misconception. While there is a lower patient volume, when compared to other schools, DMU has only a quarter to half of the students in the clinics. So while volume is lower, DMU students see just as many patients as anyone else. If DMU had Temple or NY's clinic volume, DMU students would see twice the amount of patients that your students see (and would never go home)! I had very good clinical exposure at DMU. Some of it was palliative care but I saw plenty of bunions, neuromas, pf, fx's, id, etc.

-The real training starts in residency? Yea, pretty much it does! But this is only something that you realize after the fact and I don't think there is a resident or attending on this forum that wouldn't agree with this statement (independent of where they graduated from). That isn't to say that you don't learn a lot in school, nor is it intended to be insulting towards any program. School is for the basics. When I graduated, I felt comfortable with injections, avulsions, orthotics, etc and my overall exam/diagnosis abilities. I had even done some simple surgery (amputations, hammertoes, etc). And I'd say that is "par" for a student graduating from any of the programs. But when compared with my first 6 months of residency, I am absolutely amazed. The learning curve is truly unreal.

Think of it this way: when you graduate from school, no one will expect much of you other than to know the basics. When you finish residency, you will be expected to function as an independent physician and surgeon. I think that is what people mean when they say "The real training begins in residency".

You kind of hit at what I was trying to get at. My main point was every school sees pallative care but there is a misconception that those schools with bigger clinics must only see it since they have so many pateints. The difference in patients seen at DMU and Temple per student could be debated in the fact that roughly 50,000 patients a year seen by Faculty and around 70 3rd year student still breaks down to more than around 10,000 patients (at least this is the ball park I have been told by DMUers) to 30-50 students and faculty at DMU if you do the math. But as I said it could be debated with all the factors taken into account.

My point about people saying the real training beginning in resedency wasnt to bash it. I was simply trying to show that it always helps to be the most prepared you can before residency starts and some schools offer more clinical opportunities than others for this in the surgical classes taught and what is seen in clinic and how often. I am sure every school sees most of the same stuff but the question is how often in clinic is it seen? So do not disagree witht the statement but feel some places can give you more exposure to diverse cases than others. In fact that is why externships are so good because you can get a taste of many different things.

THe main thing I wanted to get across was to not bash NYCPM as a crappy school that only sees pallative care. It wasn't an attack on DMU but it is usually those from DMU that school that bash all the other schools and put those ideas in pre pods heads. So I used them in comparison and it must be known that I go my info from a 4th year DMU student. It not's like I just made it up for fun. They weren't my assumptions but info I got from him about DMU. I didn't mean to offend any DMUers so I apoligize if I did. I was just expressing some thoughts and hoping people would look at NYCPM in a different point of view other than it is no good.

 

[Stafocker]

My point about people saying the real training beginning in resedency wasnt to bash it. I was simply trying to show that it always helps to be the most prepared you can before residency starts and some schools offer more clinical opportunities than others for this in the surgical classes taught and what is seen in clinic and how often. I am sure every school sees most of the same stuff but the question is how often in clinic is it seen? So do not disagree witht the statement but feel some places can give you more exposure to diverse cases than others. In fact that is why externships are so good because you can get a taste of many different things.

THe main thing I wanted to get across was to not bash NYCPM as a crappy school that only sees pallative care. It wasn't an attack on DMU but it is usually those from DMU that school that bash all the other schools and put those ideas in pre pods heads. So I used them in comparison and it must be known that I go my info from a 4th year DMU student. It not's like I just made it up for fun. They weren't my assumptions but info I got from him about DMU. I didn't mean to offend any DMUers so I apoligize if I did. I was just expressing some thoughts and hoping people would look at NYCPM in a different point of view other than it is no good.

It's not "no" good, it's just the oldest (by one year from SCPM, 1911 vs 1912), but it hasn't updated it's residence or resources since the 70's. You will get more DMU, SCPM, Barry, and Ohio ppl on these forums just because it's more popular with these schools.

I'm from SCPM and yeah i'm bias about it being the best school. I guess you can see from the alumni from each school, how much they love their schooling and wouldn't trade it for another 4 years at some other place. If you go there and toll for 4 years, you're going to come out loving that school, the profession, or seriously in need of therapy

I like the NY school because it does a great job of bringing awareness to the community and since the community is NY, a lot of ppl will know about it. SCPM does some too (chicago marathon/triatholon, American Diabetes Association), but most of the news is with it's research (mostly through Armstrong's CLEAR lab).

However as a resident now and having externed with other students from other schools, NY seemed the least prepared for externships and even interviews... however that's just one person's experience. There are some great residents, attendings, and world famous Pods from the NY school.

Honestly, it's been said before, "the top of any class at any school will usually be on par with each other". It's the middle and bottom that have the biggest divergence.

If NY is for you, good luck! (btw, SCPM is still the best school )

 

[Dmayor22]

I'd be willing to bet that DMU clinics are as diverse as any of the schools

Why would you be willing to bet that? I would think Temple and NYCPM would be more diverse simply because of the patient population. No doubt other schools, including DMU see a wide range but I have a lot of students from DMU make a statement along the lines of "when we get done at DMU, we are extremely well prepared academically and know all the classifications for fractures, etc. we just haven't seen all of them" I think Krabmas said in a preious post from awhile ago, clinics in big cities just see more pathology.

I do find it interesting that I have yet to come across a DMU student on these boards that will acknowledge any weakness of the school. They are always justified in some form of down playing the other schools. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your school and thinking its the best, I would hope everything went to the school they thought in their minds was the best for them, because thats what really matters. But no matter how you feel about your school, there are weaknesses and DMU is by far no exception.

Let's not forget, Temple is referred to as the Harvard of Podiatry

 

[densmore22]

Alright, to please all non-DMU students, DMU has the WORST clinic ever recorded. Granted, I'm only a 2nd year and haven't stepped foot in the clinic yet, but I can assure you that we are so unprepared for externships because we have time to read up on all of the various foot and ankle pathologies. I mean seriously, what do you want the dmu students to say? I think Jonwill was just defending the fact that it's not "completely dead" in the clinic like some non-DMU people on here claim to say.

I think I'm going to have to follow in the footsteps of my idol, hero and mentor Haffadoc and say I'm out.

 

[jonwill]

Why would you be willing to bet that? I would think Temple and NYCPM would be more diverse simply because of the patient population.

That is a good question. I say that because unless a population is extremely small, your clinical experience will not be limited by population as a whole but by demographics. That is to say that the fact that there are 500,000 people in an area or 5,000,000 people in an area is largely irrelevant. What is clinically important to a student is that they are afforded the opportunity to work in an urban, suburban, and rural setting. Granted those in larger cities will see a higher volume of a specific pathology, you're all going to see it. For example, a student that only worked in an urban setting (ie county hospital) would likely mostly see infectious disease and trauma because those are the demographics of the setting. On the other hand, you are not likely to see gas gangrene come walking into a private office in the burbs.

I say this coming from "small town" Des Moines to one of the largest metro areas in the country. And I honestly haven't seen anything here that I didn't see there. I do see more of it. And that is my point. Unless your demographics are limited, you're all going to see the same things. I am not arguing that DMU'ers are going to see AS MANY of a certain pathology, but they will indeed see it. So the question then becomes, "How many is enough?" Many students will answer "There is no such thing as enough".

Having said that, there is also something to be said for repetition. I completely understand the student mentality because I was just there. You want to see as much of EVERYTHING as you can because you're stressing about boards and residency interviews. You are constantly doubting yourself and continually ask yourself the question, "Am I prepared?"

As long as you work hard and put forth your greatest effort, the answer is, "Yes". And this is independent of the school that you attend, although everyone loves a Harvard grad.

 

[Dmayor22]

As long as you work hard and put forth your greatest effort, the answer is, "Yes".

That is very true. Thanks for the meaningful response about clinic exposure. You make some great points.

 

[Stafocker]

Let's not forget, Temple is referred to as the Harvard of Podiatry

???? you mean Harvard, Illinois???? haha...

I don't think anyone from other schools can say that without laughing.

Not trying to diss Temple, it's definitely a top tier Pod school (DMU, SCPM, etc), but if you're quoting someone, give the reference cause i've never heard of that before...ever, and i've met a lot of temple alumni.

Otherwise, I'll file it under unrepented "alumni pride".

 

[Dmayor22]

if you're quoting someone, give the reference cause i've never heard of that before...ever, and i've met a lot of temple alumni.

It is stated on the school's website in the letter from the dean section I believe. Thats where I know the statement from.

 

[Stafocker]

It is stated on the school's website in the letter from the dean section I believe. Thats where I know the statement from.

alumni pride... or trying to keep his job, haha

 

[Feli]

...a lot of students from these schools say the real training starts in residency because they don't see a lot of diverse cases in their own clinics while you will see them in other school clinics. How do you think they have so much time to dominate these forums? They go on SDN while in clinic. That is what a 4th year student said.

...I have heard NYCPM does see some really diverse cases just like Temple does because of where the schools are located and the volume of patients they receive. Like Krabmas has said, even though she didn't think NYCPM was the greatest school, she would still go there because she saw awesome cases in the clinic she wouldn't have seen in other places.

I agree 100% that busy and diverse clinic is nice, but the learning curve is much greater in residency than as was stated by Jon. Having a super busy local 3rd year clinic doesn't really pay off at all if you go home after clinic, don't study, your knowledge base is lacking, and you get a crummy residency. You can always see a lot of patients in residency and learn there if you have the background book smarts from school, but you're just not gonna learn much by seeing patients if you don't fully understand the pathologies to suspect and signs/symptoms to look for because you're not reading.

I'm not saying that clinic is not important, but journals and background knowledge is the key as a student. That is what will enable you to learn the most from the patients you do see, and those "book smarts" are probably what will get you a good residency program also. Some schools are better in terms of academics than others, but is that the program or the students' talent and work ethic? You can read articles and learn book knowledge at home, library, or anywhere. Having that reading time in a slow clinic is helpful also, but that'd be a downer for me. You can read anywhere, but you certainly can't just see tons of patients if the school clinics don't have them.

Do I think clinic is important? Of course... if you utilize it right. I go to a school with pretty busy clinics. I've been at school clinics where we see 30+ patients per day, and I've skipped lunch or ate on the run because there were patient charts waiting or notes to write. I like that. I've already seen HIV patients, GSW, peroneal tendon tears, trimalleolar fracture ORIF, bone tumors, Charcot Marie Tooth, severe pediatric met adductus, brachymet, cutaneous larva migrans, A/V malforms, tib-fib fractures with Taylor spatial, RSD, elephantitis verrucosa nostra, and other cool stuff even though I've only been in clinic for 5 months. When I say "I've seen," I mean I've been the main one working the patient up also... not just shadowing. The big part is going home to look up and read on difficult cases or pimp questions from clinic, though....

Recent example: When I first saw a peroneal tendon tear, I really had no idea how bad the morbidity and outlook is (we don't have RF surgery until next semester). After I presented the patient to my attending, he came into the room and I was perplexed by how hesistant the surgeon was to suggest improvement or inspire patient confidence about return to sports. I went home and read some current literature on the topic that I probably wouldn't have read or been very interested in if not for the patient, and I learned quite a bit.

Of course I see a ton of routine diabetic care, minor trauma, nails, pes planus, bunions and hammertoes, etc in there between the challenging cases too, but that just makes you faster and more efficient at those common cases. Also, the more H&P you take, the more SOAP notes you write, the more orthotics casting and PNAs you do, the more XRs you take and develop, the more nails you clip, etc... the more efficient, concise, and polished you get at it. No matter what you're seeing, it doesn't ever hurt to get more practice.

This academics versus case numbers argument can be had when it comes to school clinics or residency training; I had a nice chat about this with a faculty attending at my school. There are residency programs out there with ho-hum surgical schedules yet great academics who will pompously say other programs are "under-published." Then there are polar opposite programs that have very little academics since they are seeing so many cases, and they may say the ivory tower guys may have publications but "can't cut their way out of a paper bag." Ideally, you probably want to find the a place that fits your learning style best... for school or residency.

 

[nycpmrep]

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[nycpmrep]

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[Stafocker]

Finally, what does anything about "rich DPM Levine" have to do with NYCPM and its reputation as a school? I hope you don't mean Louis Levine the CEO, he is not even a DPM (CEO and president of NYCPM).[/quote

Those really are some bold statements. I do not think there is a formal ranking, or atleast i have not heard of any so I do not know where you are getting this information. i would really like know. Secondly NYCPM does have good clinic and i think exposure matters the most.[/QUOTE]

Welcome NYCPMrep. I agree it's hard to actually rank schools and NYCPM is one of the oldest. But the problem I've had with it as a resident is the lack of experience or preparation of these students even with such a "diverse" clinic. I'm wondering, what does "diverse" clinic mean to NYCPM? more diverse population ethnically, or diversity in pathology, treatment, etc? Seems like the students do get to see about 10-20 patients per day each, but how often does each student get a diverse example of pathology other than just nail care? I visited the school back in 2003 and it did impress me with how busy it was, but it seemed like mostly nailcare and biomechanical evaluations (a good thing). Surgery didn't seem like a priority, but it's just a different philosophy than some of the other schools. For every patient that needed a surgical workup, how many nail care patients do you have to see first? 10-1, 20-1?

NY is just a different state. There's a lot of the "older" residencies still in NY which don't really have a "surgical" emphasis. it's not really the school's fault or responsibility for those sub-prime residencies, but the school's alumni are usually the ones running those programs and making hundreds of thousands by keeping those programs sub-par. Also, if NYCPM did a better evaluation check on programs it sends its students to, the programs would be pushed to improve with each new crop of residents. SCPM does an evaluation of every program it allows students to extern with and examines how much "surgery" and exposure each program allows students to experience. Not sure how the other schools do it, but this check does "encourage" other programs to compete with each other and push each of them to better their program compared to their neighbor program. my 2 cents.

However, NYCPM is one of the best schools in terms of awareness and getting the community and nation at large to pay attention to podiatry. It's seems to be in the news a lot for good reasons, like treating the new Naval recruits or having the first externship agreement with places like Israel and Canada and even some carribean medical schools. But again, the quality of some of the students is tough to pin down.

some of the best and smartest DPMs are from NYCPM, but it's not the top of any class that worries the students in this profession, it's the middle guys.

 

[JEWmongous]

hey i was curious if NYCPM is the lowest pod school? b/c everyone keeps on talkin down upon it. I reasoned to go there b/c it's the oldest, is affiliated with good NY hospitals(columbia, mt. sinnai, beth isreal), and that rich DPM levine went there.

The only reason I spoke of Levine was because of Daryoush saying the "rich DPM levine" went there. I didn't know which levine he meant, whether it be the president/CEO or someone else. Plus I don't think it matters if one particular "rich" guy went there to justify if its a good school or not.

A lot of the things I have said are my personal feelings to the school itself and things I have heard from students at the school and former graduates. I visited NYCPM once before my interview and also stayed with students in parkchester during the summer program.

Facility wise, I do think NYCPM is lacking. Can many argue against me with that? I know the prices in NY are extraordinate, but I'm not talking about physically expanding the property. OCPM had pretty old facilities and moved to a very nice place this past summer. Barry is building up a new facility that will be done this summer. AZPOD, Scholl, DMU all have great, up to date facilities. Of course facilties and technology are not everything but I think it is pretty beneficial for the student body. With the selling of one of NYCPM's parking lot, I hope they are putting some of that money towards doing some upgrades. Does the basement anatomy lab still flood? I heard from the pod I shadow that was a problem when he was a student a few years ago. I heard of rumors of the school selling its campus and even moving to UMDNJ but of course, they are just rumors.

Age wise, I do not think age matters so much in the quality of a school, meaning older = better (again alluding to the original poster). NYCPM is the oldest pod school but I don't feel it makes it the best one. DMU and AZPOD (granted smaller classes) are much younger schools but have great first time part 1 board scores...this is one example of course.

I've said it before, but I feel that an independent school is not a benefit in this day and age of podiatric medical education. Tuition is the sole moneymaker for indepedent schools. With vision 2015, pods are working very hard to create parity to MD's and DO's. NYCPM and Ohio are the only schools truly independent. I would love to see the NY school part of columbia, NYU, Mt. Sinai,etc rather than being only a DPM granting institution. I know a number of professors are from those mentioned med schools though. Look what Temple did with PCPM back in 98. The basic science professors come from Temple med school and rotations are given through the huge TU hospital system. Plus you have access to all of temple's facilities. I only think a merge like this could improve resources, meidcal rotations, and more for NY. With DMU and AZPOD, you are physically sitting in the same classrooms as the DO students. Scholl does the same thing with a few classes but now overhauling the curriculum to prepare for USMLE's! These future physicians know that you took the same basic science tests (first year and a lil of 2nd at DMU) as them. They will know more of your education which will definitely be a plus in the future. This may be important with state scope of practices, hospital privilages, etc. With pods completing basic science education with MD/DO's, completing a 3 year PM and S residency, there is little argument our education is sub-par.

Admissions wise, it seems a bit lax (but improved this year) and they still accept the DAT and do not look at the most difficult portion of the test, the PAT. I think the DAT would be a much easier test for an applicant, especially if they did not need to study for the perceptual ability section. Like I said with parity of MD/DO's and vision 2015, ALL the schools need to change to the MCAT. Temple, Barry, Ohio and I believe AZPOD still accept other tests than the MCAT and that needs/should be changed as well. I am not just criticizing NYCPM on this issue, trust me.

I agree I was harsh on the clinic at NYCPM in my last post. It is extremely busy and diverse patient crowd (patients themselves, pathology, etc). On NYCPM, I think the new senior surgery rotation in Israel is very cool and definitely interesting. The negatives are understand (from talking to a graduated pod and a few students) was there was quite a large amount of focus on forefoot/pallative care. The other issue I heard is there are not many faculty who do rearfoot cases. Furthermore, I understand they just increased the number of externships to 4 this year (used to be only 3, I think the minimum of all pod schools). Personally, I love the "free-ness" of Des Moines in which the entire 4th year is up to you...do a 4 month core, 7 externships in anything from podiatry, anesthesiology, ortho surgery, etc. I think that DMU does this to prepare you extremely well for residency but also a bit because you can see pathology and cases that may not be available in the Des Moines metro area.

I'm not sure how much a role it plays but the scope of practice in New York may or may not affect your clinical education. The issue is that pods in new york are not allowed to do ankle surgery or touch anything above the maleoli (soft tissue of the distal leg). I understand you learn everything about ankle stuff in lectures but cannot touch it in the clinic downstairs. A lot of your clinical time is spent at the FCNY and lincoln, harlem, and metropolitan hospital in the city. The whole NY scope of practice thing is a tough issue altogether and I know the NYSPMA has been working hard the past few years to change it. Do you feel that the students would be not as prepared when going on externships outside new york state? The 7 other pod schools are located in states which allow ankle surgery and either osseous/soft tissue work of the lower leg.

In addition, from looking at the curriculum, it seems you are still taking lecture classes while in senior year at NY. Most of the schools seem to stop formal courses some point in 3rd year. Again, I think we need to parallel the pod schools to more that of MD/DO's to really encourage parity. Like I said, Scholl has this new curriculum planned on being implemented for the class of 2012 which ends pretty much all of didactic/lecture work by the end of second year. You work at the on-site clinic in north chicago until December before going off to clinical rotations downtown, externships,etc.

Last thing, I have not heard such positive things about the administration at NY. One thing was leaving then joining AACPM a few years ago. The whole medicaid scandal in the 80's (of course its the past). More or less I have heard the communication is kind of weak between the student body and the admins.

Ok, so I hope I cleared up some things. Sorry for being too rough on my first posting and for not explaining myself. Please let me know what you think about all this.

 

[WannaBeDPM]

Bravo Jewmongous - I attended the 6 week pre-matriculation course this past summer and from talking to actual students and seeing things for myself, drama with admins etc -- I COMPLETELY agree with you on all cylinders....of course everyone has "pride" for their school so I understand how some of you NYCPM-ers may be a little upset ...but I saw this stuff with my own eyes, I'm not saying other schools are better or worse per se--- But I agree with Jewmongous's post regarding this particular school -- Barry or OCPM may or may not have 10x more problems -- regardless - I agree with the post --

Again, like many others have stated - you can be a great podiatrist no matter where you go if you work hard -- If I was in the position where I received a rejection from all schools except NYCPM - I'd go there....if I had a choice - I'd think twice...(or three times even) --

 

[krabmas]

I've posted before my feeling about NYCPM and I pretty honeest about it.

If you want to be a middle of the road student and need someone else to motivate you NYCPM is not the school for you. Maybe being a doctor is not for you either. No one will push you in residency and no one will push you to keep learning once in practice.

Back to NYCPM.

The Clinic. I've mentioned this before. If you see nails, you'll cut nails. If you see a patient sitting in front of you and listen to their concerns and then present the case as not a nail issue, then you may not cut so many nails. I agree that the clinic is too focused on forefoot, but the other stuff can be learned if you put in the effort.

The clinic at Lincoln hospital is great if you speak spanish. You can do whatever you want as a treatment plan. There are attendings there to help when needed but they are not overbearing so there is less nail cutting if you choose to see something other than the tips of the feet staring at you.

I guess my point here is that if all you do is cut nails it is your fault. If you are not reading on your own and expanding your knowledge on your own then you probably will become a nail cutter called Dr. Can you say Dr. Nipper?

About the hospital rotations...

NYCPM does an ER, general surgery and internal medicine rotations. If you want to learn along side the med students you can. If you want to slack off, as well, you can. If you think to yourself - no one cares if you show up or not - you are probably right. But the 4 years you spend preparing for residency are not about whether some one else cares if you show up or not. It is up to you to take advantage of every opportunity that presents itself and learn as much as you can along the way. I do wish that we had the same requirements as the med students on the outside rotations but maybe one day that will change?

 

[j0ez0r]

sounds impressive

 

[cgypod]

I don't usually post a great deal on SDN, but all this talk about NYCPM comes as a little surprising. There often seems to be a trend of prospective students posting their comments in such a way that they come across as truths about the various institutions. It is in my opinion that it is next to impossible if not impossible to truly judge a school and make conclusions about it by merely attending for an interview, visiting the school and talking to some selective alumni. With that being said, I just would like to clarify and expand on some of the things said about NYCPM. And just so you know, I am currently a third year student at the institution, so I have been through the pre-clinical sciences and am currently immersed in the clinical aspect of things.

Jewmongous states:

"Facility wise, I do think NYCPM is lacking."

I agree that NYCPM is a small institution with a small facility, but size-wise, it is suited to our needs. The classrooms provide sufficient space for all classes and labs to be held. And, as of late, there have been a number of developments within the school. They recently built a new skills labs, with mock examining rooms and OR for training purposes. This state-of-the-art lab is being used by students at our college, as well as by faculty to record lectures that are sent to affiliated schools in different countries. Next, they just built a new conference room that is available to the students and faculty and are currently in the process of renovating and revamping two smaller classrooms. So, facility wise, things are adequate at the very least.

Jewmongous states:

"DMU and AZPOD (granted smaller classes) are much younger schools but have great first time part 1 board scores".

I think it is great that DMU and AZPOD are doing excellent on the Part I of the boards. And Jewmongous brings up a valuable point when stating they have "smaller classes". If you were to take the top 30-50 students at NYCPM and look at their boards scores, the numbers would be almost identical to that of DMU Azpod, nearing the 100% mark. Classes are larger at NYCPM and this contributes to some of the lower scores on the boards. I believe that the school is moving away from this, but again, this is my opinion.

Jewmongous goes on to state that Ohio and NYCPM are the only schools not affiliated with other MD and DO programs, which is true. However, he also makes mention that many of our faculty do some from other institutions, which is correct. I agree that it would be great to be integrated to network with other students through the classroom. But besides that point, the rest of this statement is meaningless. In terms of education, we are receiving the same education as the MD/DO schools that we are associated with by virtue of having the same professors coming and lecturing us on the same topics. The only difference is that we are in our own building and the other students are in their building. The material remains the same. In terms of networking, it is a falsity that we do not get to network with the other professions. Some schools do it in the classroom. We get the chance to do it in the clinic. NYCPM has 4 externship opportunities, which was also stated. Some feel that they would like a more "free" 4th year. During the months that are not allocated for externships, we are rotating through internal medicine, general surgery and emergency medicine at various hospitals where we work on par with students from MD/DO institutions.

Also, in your third year, you have a physical diagnosis mini-rotation at Lincoln hospital, where you work up patients whose complaints are not necessarily associated with the lower extremity, which is also an invalualbe experience.

Now, onto admissions. It is my opinion that all schools should accept the MCAT only. Some do, some don't. I believe all schools will push towards that in the near future, including NYCPM.

Jewmongous states:

"It is extremely busy and diverse patient crowd (patients themselves, pathology, etc). On NYCPM, I think the new senior surgery rotation in Israel is very cool and definitely interesting. The negatives are understand (from talking to a graduated pod and a few students) was there was quite a large amount of focus on forefoot/pallative care. The other issue I heard is there are not many faculty who do rearfoot cases."

The clinic at NYCPM is great. It was the reason I came to the school and it is the reason I am enjoying my clinical experience. The statement about palliative care/forefoot being the majority of the cases only has minimal validity. As krabmas stated, some patient come in with more than just nails. You need to look for it. Above and beyond that, the school has specific rotations in Wound Care (where we see tons of ulcers a week), Vascular, Surgery (where we now see a good deal of external fixation and rearfoot cases), Orthopedics, Pediatrics (where we get to conduct serial casting), Rheumatology, Physical Diagnosis etc. Not to mention, we rotate at Metropolitan, Lincoln, Harlem, and Morris-Heights Hospitals to name a few.


In the senior year, you are not taking any classes as it currently stands. There used to be winter course, which was a board review for 2 weeks. Other than that, I am not sure what Jewmongous is talking about. It is true that you take classes in your junior year at 7:30-9:00 in the morning, but that is all in terms of didactic lectures.

In terms od administration and students not getting along, there are always disagreements in any institution you attend. If there was complete agreement on everything, there would be a push for change or a push for improvement. With that being said, the rapport between administration and students at this point of time is fairly good. There is always someone you may not see eye to eye with, but at the same time you are learning through your experiences with them. There are other faculty/administration whom you get along with great and develop life-long comraderie with. It is up to the student.

With that being said, my fingers are getting sore. If anyone has any questions, don't hesitate to e-mail me. I hope I cleared some stuff up.

Now, I am off to see patients

 

[krabmas]

In addition, from looking at the curriculum, it seems you are still taking lecture classes while in senior year at NY. Most of the schools seem to stop formal courses some point in 3rd year. Again, I think we need to parallel the pod schools to more that of MD/DO's to really encourage parity. Like I said, Scholl has this new curriculum planned on being implemented for the class of 2012 which ends pretty much all of didactic/lecture work by the end of second year. You work at the on-site clinic in north chicago until December before going off to clinical rotations downtown, externships,etc.

All med students have some sort of lecture course in the 3rd and sometimes 4th years. Usually in the form of small lectures within their rotation. NYCPM has it in the form of large lectures for an 1 hr or so in the morning. I think learning happens better in small discussion groups but...

 

[WannaBeDPM]

"It is in my opinion that it is next to impossible if not impossible to truly judge a school and make conclusions about it by merely attending for an interview, visiting the school and talking to some selective alumni."

how else can we judge a school? I'm not being a smartass -- I actually have been rejected by many schools so I'm actually quite the ******* -- but how else can we judge schools -- I think it's an important question...

 

[WannaBeDPM]

Jewmongous states:

"DMU and AZPOD (granted smaller classes) are much younger schools but have great first time part 1 board scores".

I think it is great that DMU and AZPOD are doing excellent on the Part I of the boards. And Jewmongous brings up a valuable point when stating they have "smaller classes". If you were to take the top 30-50 students at NYCPM and look at their boards scores, the numbers would be almost identical to that of DMU Azpod, nearing the 100% mark. Classes are larger at NYCPM and this contributes to some of the lower scores on the boards. I believe that the school is moving away from this, but again, this is my opinion.


Also -- Does this mean that no matter if you have 30-50 students (dmu, azpod) or near 100 students (nycpm) -- ONLY 30-50 will do well? is that your claim? Of course the top 1/3-1/2 of any American graduate program will do well.....thats common sense more or less....I don't think that was the point of the original board score comment..

 

[cgypod]

"It is in my opinion that it is next to impossible if not impossible to truly judge a school and make conclusions about it by merely attending for an interview, visiting the school and talking to some selective alumni."

how else can we judge a school? I'm not being a smartass -- I actually have been rejected by many schools so I'm actually quite the ******* -- but how else can we judge schools -- I think it's an important question...

In all honesty, the only way to judge a school and truly evaluate it is by attending it. That is a fact of life. You need to immerse yourself in something to truly appreciate it or unappreciate it. That being said, as a prospective student, you need to gather as much information as possible in as many ways as possible. Just be aware that all information you gather, regardless from who it is from is biased in someway. You are right that you can only judge a school by the aforementioned means. I am just saying that those judgements may be far from reality and should not be perpetuated as fact. Good luck with your pursuit of podiatry. I am sure you will find your way. PM me if you need anything.

 

[bdaddyjolley]

Also -- Does this mean that no matter if you have 30-50 students (dmu, azpod) or near 100 students (nycpm) -- ONLY 30-50 will do well? is that your claim? Of course the top 1/3-1/2 of any American graduate program will do well.....thats common sense more or less....I don't think that was the point of the original board score comment..

I think his point was not that only 30-50 will do well but that with a smaller class size, the school can be more selective and let in only the top tier students. If a school has to fill a larger class size, they will get top tier students as well as ones who are not top tier that need to fill the empty spaces. This could account for lower first time board pass rates since you have some students who are not on top of things as much as others. That is why I think scholl is impressive with an 89% board pass rate last year with such a large class. They had the responsibility of getting many more students to pass than a school with a smaller class size. This is just a different way to look at it. That said, I do agree though that the quality of education also is a factor is pass rates.

 

[the-doc!]

The only reason I spoke of Levine was because of Daryoush saying the "rich DPM levine" went there. I didn't know which levine he meant, whether it be the president/CEO or someone else. Plus I don't think it matters if one particular "rich" guy went there to justify if its a good school or not.

A lot of the things I have said are my personal feelings to the school itself and things I have heard from students at the school and former graduates. I visited NYCPM once before my interview and also stayed with students in parkchester during the summer program.

Facility wise, I do think NYCPM is lacking. Can many argue against me with that? I know the prices in NY are extraordinate, but I'm not talking about physically expanding the property. OCPM had pretty old facilities and moved to a very nice place this past summer. Barry is building up a new facility that will be done this summer. AZPOD, Scholl, DMU all have great, up to date facilities. Of course facilties and technology are not everything but I think it is pretty beneficial for the student body. With the selling of one of NYCPM's parking lot, I hope they are putting some of that money towards doing some upgrades. Does the basement anatomy lab still flood? I heard from the pod I shadow that was a problem when he was a student a few years ago. I heard of rumors of the school selling its campus and even moving to UMDNJ but of course, they are just rumors.

Age wise, I do not think age matters so much in the quality of a school, meaning older = better (again alluding to the original poster). NYCPM is the oldest pod school but I don't feel it makes it the best one. DMU and AZPOD (granted smaller classes) are much younger schools but have great first time part 1 board scores...this is one example of course.

I've said it before, but I feel that an independent school is not a benefit in this day and age of podiatric medical education. Tuition is the sole moneymaker for indepedent schools. With vision 2015, pods are working very hard to create parity to MD's and DO's. NYCPM and Ohio are the only schools truly independent. I would love to see the NY school part of columbia, NYU, Mt. Sinai,etc rather than being only a DPM granting institution. I know a number of professors are from those mentioned med schools though. Look what Temple did with PCPM back in 98. The basic science professors come from Temple med school and rotations are given through the huge TU hospital system. Plus you have access to all of temple's facilities. I only think a merge like this could improve resources, meidcal rotations, and more for NY. With DMU and AZPOD, you are physically sitting in the same classrooms as the DO students. Scholl does the same thing with a few classes but now overhauling the curriculum to prepare for USMLE's! These future physicians know that you took the same basic science tests (first year and a lil of 2nd at DMU) as them. They will know more of your education which will definitely be a plus in the future. This may be important with state scope of practices, hospital privilages, etc. With pods completing basic science education with MD/DO's, completing a 3 year PM and S residency, there is little argument our education is sub-par.

Admissions wise, it seems a bit lax (but improved this year) and they still accept the DAT and do not look at the most difficult portion of the test, the PAT. I think the DAT would be a much easier test for an applicant, especially if they did not need to study for the perceptual ability section. Like I said with parity of MD/DO's and vision 2015, ALL the schools need to change to the MCAT. Temple, Barry, Ohio and I believe AZPOD still accept other tests than the MCAT and that needs/should be changed as well. I am not just criticizing NYCPM on this issue, trust me.

I agree I was harsh on the clinic at NYCPM in my last post. It is extremely busy and diverse patient crowd (patients themselves, pathology, etc). On NYCPM, I think the new senior surgery rotation in Israel is very cool and definitely interesting. The negatives are understand (from talking to a graduated pod and a few students) was there was quite a large amount of focus on forefoot/pallative care. The other issue I heard is there are not many faculty who do rearfoot cases. Furthermore, I understand they just increased the number of externships to 4 this year (used to be only 3, I think the minimum of all pod schools). Personally, I love the "free-ness" of Des Moines in which the entire 4th year is up to you...do a 4 month core, 7 externships in anything from podiatry, anesthesiology, ortho surgery, etc. I think that DMU does this to prepare you extremely well for residency but also a bit because you can see pathology and cases that may not be available in the Des Moines metro area.

I'm not sure how much a role it plays but the scope of practice in New York may or may not affect your clinical education. The issue is that pods in new york are not allowed to do ankle surgery or touch anything above the maleoli (soft tissue of the distal leg). I understand you learn everything about ankle stuff in lectures but cannot touch it in the clinic downstairs. A lot of your clinical time is spent at the FCNY and lincoln, harlem, and metropolitan hospital in the city. The whole NY scope of practice thing is a tough issue altogether and I know the NYSPMA has been working hard the past few years to change it. Do you feel that the students would be not as prepared when going on externships outside new york state? The 7 other pod schools are located in states which allow ankle surgery and either osseous/soft tissue work of the lower leg.

In addition, from looking at the curriculum, it seems you are still taking lecture classes while in senior year at NY. Most of the schools seem to stop formal courses some point in 3rd year. Again, I think we need to parallel the pod schools to more that of MD/DO's to really encourage parity. Like I said, Scholl has this new curriculum planned on being implemented for the class of 2012 which ends pretty much all of didactic/lecture work by the end of second year. You work at the on-site clinic in north chicago until December before going off to clinical rotations downtown, externships,etc.

Last thing, I have not heard such positive things about the administration at NY. One thing was leaving then joining AACPM a few years ago. The whole medicaid scandal in the 80's (of course its the past). More or less I have heard the communication is kind of weak between the student body and the admins.

Ok, so I hope I cleared up some things. Sorry for being too rough on my first posting and for not explaining myself. Please let me know what you think about all this.

do you have ANY source for the ANY of the info you provided??? Azpod DOES NOT take anything but MCAT.. its one of the top schools, bc of it!

 

[Snowman211]

this thread is like 6 years old Doc

 

[StudentDPM2016]

daryoush, If you are going to judge the ranking of schools, you should do it according to their board pass rates and their residency placement % -- In which case NYCPM would not be at the bottom. However, determining which school is best suited for your academic goals may be based upon other things such as location, curriculum, or number of externships.