Is medical school worth it? A physicians perspective.

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larryboy

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Hi all,

It's been a while. I've had a number of people ask me whether or not medical school is worth it. Tough question to answer, but it's a very valid question that I think everyone should ask prior to beginning on their journey.

I think the only answer that I feel comfortable with is "it depends."

It depends on a number of variables, some of which you don't appreciate until you've finished training and have the benefit of looking back retrospectively at the whole process.

To keep this particular post from going on too long, I'll direct my thoughts as to whether or not I think it is financially worth it.

For those contemplating going to medical school, I think the biggest obstacle that you need to be fully aware of is the cost. I've done some back-of-the-envelope math to help you grasp the financial commitment that you're getting yourself into.

Tuition these days generally runs from 30k-60k a year x 4 years = 120-240K. Tack on modest living expenses for a single adult (add liberally for those of you with families) of about 25K a year x 4 years = 100k.

Four years of medical school/living expenses will cost you roughly 200-300k. There will be some outliers both above and below this number, but for the vast majority of people this will be in this range. Heaven forbid you have a large amount of undergraduate loans in addition to this amount.

Let's assume for simplicity that your 250K in student loans is all federal loans (which is not possible - you're limited to about 30K a year in federal loans, the rest are private loans at a higher rate). Currently the interest rate is 3.4% and set to increase to 6.8% at the end of this year (you can all thank George Bush for signing the 6.8% into law - and Obama for temporarily lowering it to 3.4% since 2007).

By the time you finish 4 years of medical school and 3 years of residency, your 250K in loans, with 6.8% interest and assuming no payments have been made during school or residency, will have ballooned to 361K.

So you finish residency and get your first job making $160,000 year (avg starting salary for primary care these days). Uncle Sam will come by and swipe 30% off the top, and your state tax will be about 5%, leaving you with about $100,000 left.

That gives you about $8300/month to live off, which seems pretty good. And that would be good if you didn't have that huge ass debt strapped to your back.

At 361K in debt at 6.8% over 10 years, your monthly loan payment will be $4150.

That leaves you with $4250/month to live off...for the next 10 years. That's the equivalent of a $50,000 salary.

If you stretch that out to a 20 year repayment, you're looking at monthly payment of $2750/month - FOR 20 FREAKING YEARS.

So back to the question - is it worth it? It depends. If you don't mind being a primary care doctor in your early 40's, still living off the equivalent of a $50,000/yr salary, then yes, it's probably worth it. Your net worth will eventually improve to ZERO during your 40's (ie out of negative territory), after which your significant investment will pay off once you have finally slayed the debt beast and payed off all your loans. If you continue to work into your 60's, you'll be fine.

Now, lest you forget, we live in a time of declining reimbursement to physicians while the cost of medical school rises every year. The time will soon come that unless you have a way other than student loans to finance your debt (scholarships, loan repayment plans, etc), you will be working your entire career to pay off your loans - all the while living off of a very average salary.

Again, if you don't mind living like this, then by all means, follow your dreams. But if you have any financial sense, you'll quickly realize that this may be financial suicide.

Now hopefully it's obvious why some people out there have such a hard time finding a primary care physician these days. It's daunting to choose this path when you will be living in indentured servitude for the next 1-2 decades of your life.

But doctor, I love primary care and I don't care what it costs - I want to follow my dream and be a PCP! By all means, go right ahead. But realize that this amazing amount of debt with crush your altruism within months, at which time you'll remember my words of wisdom and weep with regret!

If you have your heart set on primary care (which, as an internist, I applaud), I strongly implore you to look into loan repayment options. This is really the only way that you can temper the crushing debt that will try to ruin your life and still do what you love to do. There are plenty of programs out there, and while temporarily inconvenient, they may save your financial life.

For those of you going into sub specialties, you'll be much better off financially for the time being, but beware lest you think the current level of reimbursement won't decline in the next few decades. You have a financial target on your head, and Medicare is dialing in the sights.

So the moral of this post is simple - think long and hard about the financial implications of your decision. Don't fall into the trap of telling yourself that the level of debt doesn't matter, that you'll be a doctor and somehow things will work out financially. That's like running out into the street and then looking both ways. Odds are you'll get creamed.

Take it for what it's worth. I wish there was an easier way, but it is what it is and it isn't going to change anytime soon.

Stay tuned - next time I'll look at the other aspects of medicine and tell you if I think it is worth it.

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What if you do a program such as the HPSP with a branch of the military? Would that change your perspective on primary care doctors and altruism?
 
Absolutely. That, in my opinion, is the only way to do primary care and stay financially afloat and keeping your altruism intact.

The other option is to marry rich.
 
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This is a nice post. And fairly objective too. Thanks.

Was curious on your perspective of the emotional/mental reward and costs to being a physician. Does it feel like it's just a job? Is the vaunted job security concept lacking in merit? Does it seem like there's little respect, no autonomy, tons of complaints/annoyances, and endless workload?
 
...At 361K in debt at 6.8% over 10 years, your monthly loan payment will be $4150.

That leaves you with $4250/month to live off...for the next 10 years. That's the equivalent of a $50,000 salary...

A 50k/yr salary takes home about $3000/month assuming they have zero debt. A $4250/month salary after taxes is like someone who makes ~75k/yr with zero debt. This is a pretty big difference.

You won't be living a "doctor's lifestyle" while paying off debt but it is a good middle class living in many parts of the country.
 
Could you go into detail about these loan repayment options?
 
I'm sorry I don't find your perspective objective. It seems a bit jaded, bitter, pessimistic. Some people actually go to medical school for other reasons besides finances. What is it worth in the end? You said it depends.... And from your analysis: it all depends on the numbers.
 
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I Have to say that is a very biased post. You are on the offensive rather than playing the middle which would have left your argument to be more believable.

There are plenty of things to keep in mind that keep the prospects of medicine from being so GRIM as described above. Notice how people always say "Uncle Sam's gona take this much" "or that much" yet no one speaks of that February Tax RETURN, deductibles, and non taxable income. Their are numerous websites where you can calculate your taxes for a given year and if the numbers you post aren't your own (can't be your not FM) I highly doubt they are accurate at all.

In the way of Loans, 250k is not instantly gaining interest in your name when you begin medical school as you calculated. It will compile yearly if of course your medical school cost 62,500$ a year. You stated living expenses in medical school to be 20,000$ That is hard to believe I would expect the price to be nearly identical to Undergrad. You do make good arguments in some areas and I do think some thought should go into this leap but somethings just don't add up here.

Sure im a lowly pre professional but I know bias when I see it
 
People might actually have to go into medicine simply because they like it.
 
"Again, if you don't mind living like this, then by all means, follow your dreams. But if you have any financial sense, you'll quickly realize that this may be financial suicide."

considering the average med student graduates with $162k in debt (and $180k for those that attend private schools), it sounds like you don't think medical school is worth it for most

I really don't think it's fair to say going to med school is "financial suicide"
 
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People might actually have to go into medicine simply because they like it.

That's essentially the main reason.
 
I could care less about the money. To me, it's just going to be rewarding for me to have fun helping people and apply the knowledge of medicine in a clinical setting, as well as problem solving on a daily basis.
 
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250K to 300K is a lot of debt, just for medical school. What the determined and upcoming physicians-to-be need is advise on how to go through medical school without acquiring that much debt.

In conclusion: Where there is a will, there is a way.

If you are going to medical school because of the money, you will most likely end up disappointed and jaded
 
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I could care less about the money. To me, it's just going to be rewarding for me to have fun helping people and apply the knowledge of medicine in a clinical setting, as well as problem solving on a daily basis.

Oh, you fool... this is SDN!
If you're not in it for:

A. The money
B. The fame
C. The chicks

You ain't at the good place.
 
Absolutely. That, in my opinion, is the only way to do primary care and stay financially afloat and keeping your altruism intact.

The other option is to marry rich.

Thanks for the insight!:)
 
I could care less about the money. To me, it's just going to be rewarding for me to have fun helping people and apply the knowledge of medicine in a clinical setting, as well as problem solving on a daily basis.

lol
 
I could care less about the money. To me, it's just going to be rewarding for me to have fun helping people and apply the knowledge of medicine in a clinical setting, as well as problem solving on a daily basis.

lol

Please, by all means, come back in ten years and tell us how much "fun" you're having. I can't wait to hear about it. :D
 
.....you should of did podiatry or pharmacy...or better yet got in a surgical residency, moneygrabber.
Seriously, going into medicine for money, you're going to broke and derange while the pharmacist and dentist drives a better car while you drive an 94 camery.
I worry about healthcare alot now......
 
with all the supposed doom and gloom isn't it funny how getting into med school just gets more and more competitive? you'd think people would be deterred..
 
with all the supposed doom and gloom isn't it funny how getting into med school just gets more and more competitive? you'd think people would be deterred..
It still gets me, you might as well do pharmacy and for four year and pay off the loans or be a pod.
 
Hi all,


Tuition these days generally runs from 30k-60k a year x 4 years = 120-240K. Tack on modest living expenses for a single adult (add liberally for those of you with families) of about 25K a year x 4 years = 100k.

Are you eating lobster and crab every night living in a mansion? Anyone taking out 100k in loans to live on for 4 yrs ought to be slapped. This is where your entire post fails.
 
Honestly if you live wisely you could put a dent(40k-80k) in your student loans by the time you complete residency. And if you can resist Balling out for about 2 years making and saving most of that 110k after taxes and just live like a high school teacher (or 47%of the population), you could pay off all of those evil loans 2 years out of residency. Wow imagine that

This works if your loans are below 240k like majority of medical students, and if you can manage to live like us pre meds are living right now.
 
Honestly if you live wisely you could put a dent(40k-80k) in your student loans by the time you complete residency. And if you can resist Balling out for about 2 years making and saving most of that 110k after taxes and just live like a high school teacher (or 47%of the population), you could pay off all of those evil loans 2 years out of residency. Wow imagine that

This works if your loans are below 240k like majority of medical students, and if you can manage to live like us pre meds are living right now.

:thumbup:

Now add a wife who works full time while you are in med school = problem solved
 
It still gets me, you might as well do pharmacy and for four year and pay off the loans or be a pod.

Do you mean be a Podiatrist, you know they have to do a 3 year residency now and they make around what a FM doc make, some make 250k + in hospitals and well run practices but its rare. Pharmacy on the other hand http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=881673

Go to that link and you'll see why that's not a job you just do for the money either (though I dont see why else anyone would subject themselves to such boredom).

Are you eating lobster and crab every night living in a mansion? Anyone taking out 100k in loans to live on for 4 yrs ought to be slapped. This is where your entire post fails.

Lol im glad im not the only one to notice this.
 
:thumbup:

Now add a wife who works full time while you are in med school = problem solved

See now were getting creative enough to escape Med school Debt Free :cool:.
 
But if you go to an IS school and bum off your parents, you're looking at ~90k over 4 years + interest.
 
Will you be prepped regarding finances of medical school before or during you're in medical school? I feel like this is all so confusing to me right now.
 
This thread has given me some things to think about. I recently got accepted to my state school (~30k/year). I would love to go there but I have been telling people that I would like a few more acceptances to some private schools in a city I might rather live in. My uncle, who is a physician, told me that in his opinion there is no question I should attend my state school. To graduate with ~100k less in debt cannot be underestimated, he said. The more that I think about it, he may be right. Especially since my state school is ranked in the top-50, and without going into detail, I may be be able to have free rent if I choose to go there.

Ah, the almighty dollar...
 
OP isn't among a small group with his post.

That 2012 survey by Medscape of ~25k physicians found that only 56% of physicians would choose a career in medicine again if they could start over. As with all survery there's some bias likely comes into play with any optional survey, however it still is something to be noted.
 
Lol at people thinking 25k coa automatically equates to "living in a mansion eating lobster and crab every night"...
 
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Lol at people thinking 25k coa automatically equates to "living in a mansion eating lobster and crab every night"...

agreed. Depending on where you live (large city for example) things can get very very expensive. Average rent in a city like Boston or New York can be at minimum 1200-1400 a month for a 1 bedroom apartment.. this doesn't even factor in food.
 
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Posting in a pre-med forum about the downfalls of medicine = a bunch of pre-meds arguing to keep the dream alive. We will not go down easy!
 
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what gets lost in the discussion is that every dollar in loans that we ultimately pay back will be paid back with dollars that are taxed at (likely) close to 40%. So that $160,000 you had when you graduated will grow to over $200,000 by the end of residency, but servicing this debt will cost you over $300,000 in pre-tax income.
 
Are you eating lobster and crab every night living in a mansion? Anyone taking out 100k in loans to live on for 4 yrs ought to be slapped. This is where your entire post fails.

That's about $2,085/mo. for:
Rent
Heat/light
Phone/Internet
Food (groceries or ready-made/meal plan)
Toiletries
Cleaning supplies or service
Clothing and footwear
Laundry/dry cleaning
Entertainment (whether movies, concerts, dinner out, drinks, sports)
Transportation both day-to-day and trips "home" if you are away at school
Health insurance, deductables and co-pays plus medications

Some of these costs might be folded into the cost of on-campus housing but many medical schools do not offer school housing. There is a trade-off between the savings associated with a roommate (or living at home with parents) and the aggravation.

Keep in mind, too, that you will be at an age when many friends, relatives and classmates will be getting married and so there may be costs associated with attending those events.
 
But if you go to an IS school and bum off your parents, you're looking at ~90k over 4 years + interest.
dude what state do you live in where tuition is that cheap? my state schools are all ~$30k a year and that's not including ANY living expenses (and NY is expensive)
 
In many professions you will find large numbers of unhappy people, particularly in this economy.
every lawyer I have met tells me to stay away from law. my law school friends are looking at a serious **** show when they graduate, even my friends at top law schools are worried about finding employment (and they have tons of debt too).
My parents are in academia and mental health field and tell me to stay away from those fields...
Have family members in banking/finance/business and all say the same thing - stay away/they wish they could get out. I also know people from these fields who are unemployed, which really isn't something you have to worry about as a physician.
I've had quite a few adults in the above mentioned fields tell me they wished they went into medicine particularly for the job security.
 
A 50k/yr salary takes home about $3000/month assuming they have zero debt. A $4250/month salary after taxes is like someone who makes ~75k/yr with zero debt. This is a pretty big difference.

You won't be living a "doctor's lifestyle" while paying off debt but it is a good middle class living in many parts of the country.

Yup. Folks with a 50k salary have to pay taxes, not just physicians.
 
Posting in a pre-med forum about the downfalls of medicine = a bunch of pre-meds arguing to keep the dream alive. We will not go down easy!

Quite the opposite. These facts will prevent the confused premeds from entering medicine. But it will intensify gunner premeds to do the opposite.
 
I wish i had been smarter earlier in UG and gotten good grades. I would go to state school, and it wouldn't only cost me about 65k..no joke ( LSU)..now I'm going to have to go DO and all of them are far more expensive..OP is right mostly ( maybe not exactly with the numbers) ..you guys thinking it wont be a burden obviously are slaves to the books and science labs, and you haven't paid bills yet right?

Im planning on living dirt cheep for 5 years until all my loans are paid off. I can live pretty cheap :D Then, my debt wont determine my salary..because I'll be out of the hole. ps, not going to be a PCP
 
Take it for what it's worth. I wish there was an easier way, but it is what it is and it isn't going to change anytime soon.

IBR + loan forgiveness program or repayment assistance from employer = an easier way. Given the demand for primary care docs right now, repayment assistance isn't that hard to come by (at least not in my neck of the woods).

Also, your 30% federal tax estimate on 160K is too high. A rookie mistake there, doc.
 
Oh, you fool... this is SDN!
If you're not in it for:

A. The money
B. The fame
C. The chicks

You ain't at the good place.

Oh yea, I forgot! :bang:
Except I already have a chick, don't care about fame (too much attention), and too much money is a pain in the butt too.

Please, by all means, come back in ten years and tell us how much "fun" you're having. I can't wait to hear about it. :D

It won't always be unicorns and gumdrops, but overall, I'll have fun, and enjoy my profession, even with 80 hours a week in and out of surgery.
 
I'm sorry I don't find your perspective objective. It seems a bit jaded, bitter, pessimistic. Some people actually go to medical school for other reasons besides finances. What is it worth in the end? You said it depends.... And from your analysis: it all depends on the numbers.

I'm going into medicine for reasons other than finances.

I still want to make more than 50K/year.


Its much too late for me to back out now, but medicine is looking like a truly horrible place to be. The time I'm not studying, I spend it wishing that I would have done CompSci.
 
dude what state do you live in where tuition is that cheap? my state schools are all ~$30k a year and that's not including ANY living expenses (and NY is expensive)

lecom has amazing out of state tuition. Just saying.
 
IBR + loan forgiveness program or repayment assistance from employer = an easier way. Given the demand for primary care docs right now, repayment assistance isn't that hard to come by (at least not in my neck of the woods).

Also, your 30% federal tax estimate on 160K is too high. A rookie mistake there, doc.

There seems to be a lot of skepticism with the IBR + PSLF lasting.
 
with all the supposed doom and gloom isn't it funny how getting into med school just gets more and more competitive? you'd think people would be deterred..

I know right?

But people don't look at medical school rationally. Medical school spots will be filled for years to come by financially naive idealists and prestige-hungry Asians.
 
I know right?

But people don't look at medical school rationally. Medical school spots will be filled for years to come by financially naive idealists and prestige-hungry Asians.

A forced gap year would stop that. Let some of these pre-meds go into repayment on their undergrad loans and they will start shopping for schools like rational consumers.
 
A forced gap year would stop that. Let some of these pre-meds go into repayment on their undergrad loans and they will start shopping for schools like rational consumers.

Not if your parents covered everything for you.
 
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