Is it bad that I'm secretly hoping I end up at this DO school over my state MD?

[hales1120]

I've gotten into two DO schools, and I'm still waiting to hear back from my state MD school (interviewed) as well as a MD school I'm waitlisted at. But I've absolutely fallen in love with my top choice DO school which I got into. It would allow me to live with my twin sister and I just feel more in tune with the students there. I'm a super laid back, non competitive person and I feel like it fits me more. However, I've heard time and time again to pick an MD school over a DO one. I'm so confused and conflicted. I want to go into primary care (OB/Gyn) so Idk if that makes a difference. Help?

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[Courtneylynn08]

Either education is same. Just different philosophies. You want to go somewhere you feel comfortable.
DOs make great primary care physicians because of their philosophy of whole body. The biggest thing will be learn OMM if you aren’t interested in it. But if you like OMM then go to DO school!
I’m so tired of hearing these debates about DO vs. MD. It only matters for like 3 specialties because there aren’t residencies for those three areas, but that changes every year and if you go to DO school and do well at what you do, then you will go far and accomplish what you wanted to do. Don’t let a bunch of people who don’t have to pay your bills and live your life dictate how you live and what you do.


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[hales1120]

Either education is same. Just different philosophies. You want to go somewhere you feel comfortable.
DOs make great primary care physicians because of their philosophy of whole body. The biggest thing will be learn OMM if you aren’t interested in it. But if you like OMM then go to DO school!
I’m so tired of hearing these debates about DO vs. MD. It only matters for like 3 specialties because there aren’t residencies for those three areas, but that changes every year and if you go to DO school and do well at what you do, then you will go far and accomplish what you wanted to do. Don’t let a bunch of people who don’t have to pay your bills and live your life dictate how you live and what you do.


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True that. Thank you. It's just hard going against the grain!

 

[darklabel]

I just feel more in tune with the students there.

Definitely go by the students there and how happy they are. I literally had a student tell me the only reason they went there was their only acceptance when I was applying so students being happy is a good thing.

BUT don't go by this. When you matriculate they will be totally different students and every class is different. My school had a great upper class-men when I interviewed and I ended up not liking most of my fellow medical students when I matriculated. Luck of the draw, so don't base your decision off of the student body besides them being happy or not there. You're only going to interact with the 2nd years during the first half of the year mostly since they then have step then they're off in third year to clinicals.

I'm ignoring the MD vs DO debate. If you like the DO school a lot then go there. Ob-gyn is attainable from there.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

I am literally in the same position as you. Have interviewed and been accepted at DO schools that I love and sort-of hoping I don't wind up with an MD acceptance.

I'm also interested in ob/gyn, which is definitely attainable coming from a DO school (although I have heard that competitiveness is on the rise). I will say, though, that the reason I think most people say to always go MD > DO is that you can't know for sure what specialty you will end up loving, and going to an MD school keeps the most doors open for you. Additionally, they often have better resources for things like research, which is important for matching.

Also, I would say it depends on which DO school you're talking about. Although you can't really rank the DO schools, there are definitely better ones and worse ones.

Good luck with the rest of your cycle! I hope you end up wherever it is you belong

 

[0dee]

Just go MD. It is better off being miserable for 4 years than realizing that you can't practice in a specific speciality for your entire life because you chose the wrong school. Medical school is temporary, your speciality is forever.

 

[Lawpy]

I've gotten into two DO schools, and I'm still waiting to hear back from my state MD school (interviewed) as well as a MD school I'm waitlisted at. But I've absolutely fallen in love with my top choice DO school which I got into. It would allow me to live with my twin sister and I just feel more in tune with the students there. I'm a super laid back, non competitive person and I feel like it fits me more. However, I've heard time and time again to pick an MD school over a DO one. I'm so confused and conflicted. I want to go into primary care (OB/Gyn) so Idk if that makes a difference. Help?

There are many solid reasons why you should always go US MD over US DO regardless of what you want to do. These include: US MD schools have more resources, better clinical rotations, better networking opportunities, fewer exams to deal with (why stress over COMLEX and DO shelves when USMLE is stressful enough?) etc.

People are right when they say career interests change. Who knows? You may be currently interested in primary care (even then, go for US MD over US DO), but later on, you realized you wanted to pursue something like surgery, which is harder for DO students to match.

Assuming you get into the MD school, I would go there. Yes personal fit, happiness, satisfaction etc. are all important factors to consider but the differences between the two career pathways are too significant to ignore.

Of course, the decision is up to you in the end. If you want to go DO, go DO and don't look back and regret you could have gone MD.

But my recommendation stands for anyone stuck in this dilemma: always pick US MD over US DO. It is worth it in the long run.

Also by the way, the MD and DO philosophies are exactly the same. There is no such thing as a "unique DO philosophy".

 

[Stagg737]

Just go MD. It is better off being miserable for 4 years than realizing that you can't practice in a specific speciality for your entire life because you chose the wrong school. Medical school is temporary, your speciality is forever.

I disagree. If you're miserable and get crap grades and do poorly on boards, you'd be better off going somewhere you'll be happy and do better. Not saying to go DO over MD just because it "feels better", but if you absolutely know you'll be miserable somewhere it's worth the consideration.

But my recommendation stands for anyone stuck in this dilemma: always pick US MD over US DO. It is worth it in the long run.

While I generally agree with this sentiment, I think there are some caveats that can tip the scales. For example, I turned down an MD interview for a DO acceptance for several reasons (much higher cost of attendance, my wife's career/happiness, my own 'fit' with the school as interactions with the MD school's students and staff were very off-putting, and several other reasons). In terms of OP, I don't really see a strong reason to go DO over the MD school other than staying close to family (although if unless she's in Texas the in-state MD would still be close to her family I'd assume).

 

[Lawpy]

While I generally agree with this sentiment, I think there are some caveats that can tip the scales. For example, I turned down an MD interview for a DO acceptance for several reasons (much higher cost of attendance, my wife's career/happiness, my own 'fit' with the school as interactions with the MD school's students and staff were very off-putting, and several other reasons). In terms of OP, I don't really see a strong reason to go DO over the MD school other than staying close to family (although if unless she's in Texas the in-state MD would still be close to her family I'd assume).

Even in these cases, I'd still go for US MD. Yeah it sounds one-dimensional and ignores everything else that matters (e.g. personal fit, cost, curriculum differences, SO happiness etc.). If we are comparing two MD schools or two DO schools, all these factors matter highly in deciding which school to attend.

But when deciding between MD and DO, things change quite significantly because of inherent structural differences between the two pathways that directly affect long term career goals. If DO schools offered a lot of resources, excellent clinical rotations, good mentorship etc. I would consider them more closely. The problem is, even the best and most respected DO schools are lacking in this aspect, which strangely new MD schools have no problem offering.

If the two pathways lead to similar long-term benefits, short-term comparisons of curriculum, fit, SO happiness etc can be comsidered more strongly. But if choosing one pathway leads to self-handicapping before even starting school, that's where I begin to hesitate and consider taking on the short-term woes as sunk cost.

 

[Stagg737]

Even in these cases, I'd still go for US MD. Yeah it sounds one-dimensional and ignores everything else that matters (e.g. personal fit, cost, curriculum differences, SO happiness etc.). If we are comparing two MD schools or two DO schools, all these factors matter highly in deciding which school to attend.

But when deciding between MD and DO, things change quite significantly because of inherent structural differences between the two pathways that directly affect long term career goals. If DO schools offered a lot of resources, excellent clinical rotations, good mentorship etc. I would consider them more closely. The problem is, even the best and most respected DO schools are lacking in this aspect, which strangely new MD schools have no problem offering.

If the two pathways lead to similar long-term benefits, short-term comparisons of curriculum, fit, SO happiness etc can be comsidered more strongly. But if choosing one pathway leads to self-handicapping before even starting school, that's where I begin to hesitate and consider taking on the short-term woes as sunk cost.

And I can agree with a good chunk of that, but there are certain things that tip the scales. If I'd gone to the MD school, I would have graduated med school with over 300k MORE in debt than I will be graduating with (note, that's at the end of medical school not including interest). Additionally, my wife would have literally had to sacrifice her career and we would have been 500 miles farther away from our families in an area where we'd know literally no one. In a situation like that, the short term sacrifices would not have been worth the potential long-term benefits (especially since I've ended up loving one of the less competitive fields).

The schools themselves should also play a role in the decision. Curriculum can play a huge factor, as there are certain curriculums that I know I would do horrible with (as I have in the past), and would choose a DO school without that curriculum over and MD with that. And at several DO schools, the problems you mentioned seem to either be minimal or don't exist, so depending on what schools we're talking about it also plays into the decision (although I agree that at most DO schools there is at least one of those problems, and the difference comes from licensing requirements of COCA vs. the LCME).

 

[Lawpy]

And I can agree with a good chunk of that, but there are certain things that tip the scales. If I'd gone to the MD school, I would have graduated med school with over 300k MORE in debt than I will be graduating with (note, that's at the end of medical school not including interest). Additionally, my wife would have literally had to sacrifice her career and we would have been 500 miles farther away from our families in an area where we'd know literally no one. In a situation like that, the short term sacrifices would not have been worth the potential long-term benefits (especially since I've ended up loving one of the less competitive fields).

The schools themselves should also play a role in the decision. Curriculum can play a huge factor, as there are certain curriculums that I know I would do horrible with (as I have in the past), and would choose a DO school without that curriculum over and MD with that. And at several DO schools, the problems you mentioned seem to either be minimal or don't exist, so depending on what schools we're talking about it also plays into the decision (although I agree that at most DO schools there is at least one of those problems, and the difference comes from licensing requirements of COCA vs. the LCME).

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I definitely understand that personal factors and school fit matter and should be taken into account. But I just find the potential self-handicapping before starting school to be a pressing problem. Comparing which of these two options is more suitable or less problematic is probably a personal choice to make (as is any school x vs y comparison).

However once the decision is made, it's better to go with it and don't look back. So if OP wants to go DO, then by all means go for it. But she shouldn't have any regrets of not going MD. By then, it's too late.

On a related note, I just wish all schools uniformly adopted unranked P/F, optional lectures, NBME exams etc. rather than pointlessly experimenting with flipped classrooms, all PBL etc. for preclinical years. Administrators and educators waste too much time and money on revamping preclinical years rather than addressing the far larger problem of clinical years, rotation quality, unstandardized grading etc. That's a huge problem of medical education regardless of MD or DO.

 

[hales1120]

I am literally in the same position as you. Have interviewed and been accepted at DO schools that I love and sort-of hoping I don't wind up with an MD acceptance.

I'm also interested in ob/gyn, which is definitely attainable coming from a DO school (although I have heard that competitiveness is on the rise). I will say, though, that the reason I think most people say to always go MD > DO is that you can't know for sure what specialty you will end up loving, and going to an MD school keeps the most doors open for you. Additionally, they often have better resources for things like research, which is important for matching.

Also, I would say it depends on which DO school you're talking about. Although you can't really rank the DO schools, there are definitely better ones and worse ones.

Good luck with the rest of your cycle! I hope you end up wherever it is you belong

Thank you! Nice to know I'm not the only one in this dilemma!

 

[Courtneylynn08]

Even in these cases, I'd still go for US MD. Yeah it sounds one-dimensional and ignores everything else that matters (e.g. personal fit, cost, curriculum differences, SO happiness etc.). If we are comparing two MD schools or two DO schools, all these factors matter highly in deciding which school to attend.

But when deciding between MD and DO, things change quite significantly because of inherent structural differences between the two pathways that directly affect long term career goals. If DO schools offered a lot of resources, excellent clinical rotations, good mentorship etc. I would consider them more closely. The problem is, even the best and most respected DO schools are lacking in this aspect, which strangely new MD schools have no problem offering.

If the two pathways lead to similar long-term benefits, short-term comparisons of curriculum, fit, SO happiness etc can be comsidered more strongly. But if choosing one pathway leads to self-handicapping before even starting school, that's where I begin to hesitate and consider taking on the short-term woes as sunk cost.

First let me say, I’m not trolling I’m Genuinely interested in learning more about this because I️ have been set on going to a DO school. I️ live in in Maine with only one medical school and it is DO. They will pay for half of my education if I️ attend the DO school or go to Tufts Maine track. Obviously Tufts Maine track is extremely competitive and UNECOM was my number one choice based on how much I️ loved the school.

What is the difference in clinical and resources?? UNECOM is the only medical school in Maine, and has connections with the biggest hospitals in Maine, where you are not in competition with other medical students and a bunch of residents. Why would this not be a good clinical setting?

Additionally what are the structural difference you have noticed? Because I️ have gone through curriculum at both Tufts and UNECOM forward and backwards trying to find differences and the best I️ can conclude is DO school = OMM MD= no OMM that’s the only difference I️ have found. I’m interested to know what else I’m missing and what else I️ should be looking for when I️ apply to medical school this summer.


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[jg250453]

Either education is same. Just different philosophies. You want to go somewhere you feel comfortable.
DOs make great primary care physicians because of their philosophy of whole body. The biggest thing will be learn OMM if you aren’t interested in it. But if you like OMM then go to DO school!
I’m so tired of hearing these debates about DO vs. MD. It only matters for like 3 specialties because there aren’t residencies for those three areas, but that changes every year and if you go to DO school and do well at what you do, then you will go far and accomplish what you wanted to do. Don’t let a bunch of people who don’t have to pay your bills and live your life dictate how you live and what you do.


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Also, starting in 2020 all DO/MD residencies will merge so the spots for residencies will be the same in both academic pathways. Will there still be a slight bias? Probably in some places... but I think that’s quickly disappearing.

 

[Goro]

I've gotten into two DO schools, and I'm still waiting to hear back from my state MD school (interviewed) as well as a MD school I'm waitlisted at. But I've absolutely fallen in love with my top choice DO school which I got into. It would allow me to live with my twin sister and I just feel more in tune with the students there. I'm a super laid back, non competitive person and I feel like it fits me more. However, I've heard time and time again to pick an MD school over a DO one. I'm so confused and conflicted. I want to go into primary care (OB/Gyn) so Idk if that makes a difference. Help?

Nope, not bad at all.

 

[Lawpy]

First let me say, I’m not trolling I’m Genuinely interested in learning more about this because I️ have been set on going to a DO school. I️ live in in Maine with only one medical school and it is DO. They will pay for half of my education if I️ attend the DO school or go to Tufts Maine track. Obviously Tufts Maine track is extremely competitive and UNECOM was my number one choice based on how much I️ loved the school.

What is the difference in clinical and resources?? UNECOM is the only medical school in Maine, and has connections with the biggest hospitals in Maine, where you are not in competition with other medical students and a bunch of residents. Why would this not be a good clinical setting?

Additionally what are the structural difference you have noticed? Because I️ have gone through curriculum at both Tufts and UNECOM forward and backwards trying to find differences and the best I️ can conclude is DO school = OMM MD= no OMM that’s the only difference I️ have found. I’m interested to know what else I’m missing and what else I️ should be looking for when I️ apply to medical school this summer.


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I can’t really answer the specific cases since I don’t know about these schools in particular. I’m just addressing generally why it’s a better idea to go US MD over US DO. There’s a reason why it’s harder to get into MD schools than DO schools, which is why it isn’t surprising why Tufts Maine track is way harder to get into than UNECOM.

I don’t know about UNECOM’s quality of clinical rotations... or the quality of clinical rotations for any DO school that’s the only med school for a state. What I do know is that the DO supervising/regulatory body (COCA) is significantly more lenient when it comes to oversight. What this means is COCA is inherently a lot more willing for DO schools to get away with just mediocre or subpar quality of clinical rotations, such as having DO students merely shadow the preceptors as opposed to actually learning clinical medicine. This preceptor-based shadowing for clinical years is tragically common at even most well known and respected DO schools, simply because COCA allows them to do without question.

Also, you have to take COMLEX and DO shelves at UNECOM. This may not seem to be a hassle now but it’s a pain to study for more standardized exams from more resources when residency program directors largely care about how you did on USMLE, a larger beast to deal with. The fact that program directors put little or diminishing value on COMLEX scores is kind of a slap to your face and a disrespect on how much work you put into it.

Not to mention COCA allows DO schools to have absurd preclinical curricula, such as mandatory lecture attendance. But more respected DO schools seem to avoid this problem, which is good.

These are just my thoughts in the most general sense. For specific schools in question, I’d refer to @Goro @AnatomyGrey12 @Mad Jack @Stagg737 or the school-specific threads.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Either education is same. Just different philosophies. You want to go somewhere you feel comfortable.
DOs make great primary care physicians because of their philosophy of whole body. The biggest thing will be learn OMM if you aren’t interested in it. But if you like OMM then go to DO school!
I’m so tired of hearing these debates about DO vs. MD. It only matters for like 3 specialties because there aren’t residencies for those three areas, but that changes every year and if you go to DO school and do well at what you do, then you will go far and accomplish what you wanted to do. Don’t let a bunch of people who don’t have to pay your bills and live your life dictate how you live and what you do.


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Wow what a load of garbage, I don’t even know where to start. First, there absolutely is no “DO” philosophy, that is simply propaganda that simply isn’t true. We don’t learn any extra “holistic” things than MDs do.

Second, the letters matter for every field. No it isn’t just the top fields where it matters. If you have the MD degree you simply have a lower threshold you need to hit to be considered for a spot. Look at the match rates for MDs with subpar Step scores below 220, they still match well in almost every field except the super competitive ones. The same cannot be said for a DO.

For OP, Yes OB is very doable from a DO school, but here is a caveat from talking to our OB residents and 4th years applying OB: if you want to go to a university OB program (I.e. good position for fellowships) then you are at a disadvantage unless you are an above average applicant. OB fellowships are highly academic and need a lot of research to get there and it is a lot more difficult coming from community programs, of which the vast majority of DO students go to.

There are certain scenarios to go DO over MD as outlined above, I personally do not see this as one of these times. Maybe if you gave us school names we could more specific advice

Also, starting in 2020 all DO/MD residencies will merge so the spots for residencies will be the same in both academic pathways. Will there still be a slight bias? Probably in some places... but I think that’s quickly disappearing.

This is simply hopeful naivety that has no basis in reality.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What this means is COCA is inherently a lot more willing for DO schools to get away with just mediocre or subpar quality of clinical rotations, such as having DO students merely shadow the preceptors as opposed to actually learning clinical medicine.

I do want to point out that COCA has the exact same clinical requirements as LCME. Word for word.

This preceptor-based shadowing for clinical years is tragically common at even most well known and respected DO schools, simply because COCA allows them to do without question.

Don’t call it preceptor shadowing because that simply isn’t true and is extremely degrading to the majority of DO students as it isn’t the norm. There are a lot of MD schools that have a lot of preceptor rotations. The instances where students are on a crappy rotation where they only basically shadow is few and far between, we just hear about it a lot on here because they understandably get bad press.

 

[Lawpy]

But @hales1120 if you are sincerely considering DO and won’t have much of a regret going there, I would very carefully follow the advice of @Goro @AnatomyGrey12 @Mad Jack @Stagg737 @AlteredScale etc. They will give you the best advice on DO-related matters going forward.

I’m just approaching this from a more general, long-term perspective. But short term priorities matter. I’m just trying to avoid this MD regret that some DO matriculants have (i.e. “hey look i have a DO acceptance but should i reapply/drop out of DO to go MD??). Once you decide where you attend, it’s better to just set your sights forward and work very hard in school to match into your preferable residency.

 

[Lawpy]

I do want to point out that COCA has the exact same clinical requirements as LCME. Word for word.



Don’t call it preceptor shadowing because that simply isn’t true and is extremely degrading to the majority of DO students as it isn’t the norm. There are a lot of MD schools that have a lot of preceptor rotations. The instances where students are on a crappy rotation where they only basically shadow is few and far between, we just hear about it a lot on here because they understandably get bad press.

Hm i guess COCA isn’t enforcing them as strictly as LCME.

Regarding preceptor shadowing, I guess that’s good news. It just seems somehow prevalent when MD attendings hop on here and repeatedly complain that incoming DO interns are weak clinically because of weaker clinical rotations in med school... and then these attendings specifically and repeatedly blaming them on preceptor shadowing. So this association makes it seem that DO schools have weak clinical rotations, because of preceptor shadowing.

That’s a lesson to keep in mind that SDN blurs the vision of what’s happening in clinical rotations because of selection bias and this informal echo chamber set up by frustrated students. It’s hard to get a complete picture on what’s going on in reality.

Even worse are cases when essentially all medical schools are focusing so much on preclinical curruculum, both in interview tours and general talking points, and completely ignore much about clinical rotations and quality despite knowing that performance in clinical years is super important for residency.

This is my frustration with medical education and its misplaced focus. I admit i don’t know much about clinical year quality, which is why it’s good my assertions are being proven wrong. I just wish that more focus was given to clinical years early on rather than wasting so much time revamping preclinical curriculum.

Sorry for the tangential rant, but yeah, that’s good to hear DO rotations are a lot better than I thought.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Even worse are cases when essentially all medical schools are focusing so much on preclinical curruculum, both in interview tours and general talking points, and completely ignore much about clinical rotations and quality despite knowing that performance in clinical years is super important for residency.

This is my frustration with medical education and its misplaced focus.

You and me both on both of these accounts. It drives me absolutely nuts.

Hm i guess COCA isn’t enforcing as strictly as LCME.

I forgot to mention that it is a somewhat recent change as of a year ago I believe so the students going through the changes haven’t hit residency yet. And honestly the LCME requirements aren’t as strict as you would tend to think, it basically only says that one core rotations has to be had in a wards based setting with residents. It’s how schools like Washington State are opening with essentially only community preceptor rotations.

 

[AlteredScale]

I've gotten into two DO schools, and I'm still waiting to hear back from my state MD school (interviewed) as well as a MD school I'm waitlisted at. But I've absolutely fallen in love with my top choice DO school which I got into. It would allow me to live with my twin sister and I just feel more in tune with the students there. I'm a super laid back, non competitive person and I feel like it fits me more. However, I've heard time and time again to pick an MD school over a DO one. I'm so confused and conflicted. I want to go into primary care (OB/Gyn) so Idk if that makes a difference. Help?

Being in medical school is temporary. You'll be happy in school but may realize down the road that there were things that you wanted to do that have become harder to attain because you chose to go to a DO school.

Go to your MD school if you get accepted. You never know if you'll change your mind about wanting to do primary care. Keep all doors open and make it easy for yourself.

If you don't, go to your DO school and be ready to work hard and probably harder than others at MD schools if you choose to do something competitive.

 

[jg250453]

Wow what a load of garbage, I don’t even know where to start. First, there absolutely is no “DO” philosophy, that is simply propaganda that simply isn’t true. We don’t learn any extra “holistic” things than MDs do.

Second, the letters matter for every field. No it isn’t just the top fields where it matters. If you have the MD degree you simply have a lower threshold you need to hit to be considered for a spot. Look at the match rates for MDs with subpar Step scores below 220, they still match well in almost every field except the super competitive ones. The same cannot be said for a DO.

For OP, Yes OB is very doable from a DO school, but here is a caveat from talking to our OB residents and 4th years applying OB: if you want to go to a university OB program (I.e. good position for fellowships) then you are at a disadvantage unless you are an above average applicant. OB fellowships are highly academic and need a lot of research to get there and it is a lot more difficult coming from community programs, of which the vast majority of DO students go to.

There are certain scenarios to go DO over MD as outlined above, I personally do not see this as one of these times. Maybe if you gave us school names we could more specific advice


This is simply hopeful naivety that has no basis in reality.

I never said there wouldn’t still be a bias. Or that DO students who want competitive specialties won’t have to work a little harder than their MD counterparts. But the fact of the matter is obtaining competitive specialities as a DO is more than possible. There are lots and lots of DO surgeons in all different specialities. At the hospital where I work we have 6 trauma surgeons and of them 3 are DOs. If you’re a DO and you want a competitive speciality it’s more than possible. Boards, clinical, and lots of hard work though.

 

[Stagg737]

Also, starting in 2020 all DO/MD residencies will merge so the spots for residencies will be the same in both academic pathways. Will there still be a slight bias? Probably in some places... but I think that’s quickly disappearing.

There will still be bias, and it will likely remain for at least another decade. The good news is that many formerly AOA programs will continue to favor DO applicants for a while as well. So while it will get harder for DOs to match, we won't be locked out of any fields.

I can’t really answer the specific cases since I don’t know about these schools in particular. I’m just addressing generally why it’s a better idea to go US MD over US DO. There’s a reason why it’s harder to get into MD schools than DO schools, which is why it isn’t surprising why Tufts Maine track is way harder to get into than UNECOM.

I don’t know about UNECOM’s quality of clinical rotations... or the quality of clinical rotations for any DO school that’s the only med school for a state. What I do know is that the DO supervising/regulatory body (COCA) is significantly more lenient when it comes to oversight. What this means is COCA is inherently a lot more willing for DO schools to get away with just mediocre or subpar quality of clinical rotations, such as having DO students merely shadow the preceptors as opposed to actually learning clinical medicine. This preceptor-based shadowing for clinical years is tragically common at even most well known and respected DO schools, simply because COCA allows them to do without question.

Also, you have to take COMLEX and DO shelves at UNECOM. This may not seem to be a hassle now but it’s a pain to study for more standardized exams from more resources when residency program directors largely care about how you did on USMLE, a larger beast to deal with. The fact that program directors put little or diminishing value on COMLEX scores is kind of a slap to your face and a disrespect on how much work you put into it.

Not to mention COCA allows DO schools to have absurd preclinical curricula, such as mandatory lecture attendance. But more respected DO schools seem to avoid this problem, which is good.

These are just my thoughts in the most general sense. For specific schools in question, I’d refer to @Goro @AnatomyGrey12 @Mad Jack @Stagg737 or the school-specific threads.

A few quick points. Idk what UNECOM's clinical courses require, but not all DO schools take the DO shelf exams. At my school we take all NBME (MD) shelf exams other than family medicine (have to fit OMM in somewhere...). We do all have to take COMLEX, which sucks, but that's life.

Mandatory lecture attendance doesn't just occur at DO schools, I've talked to MD students who had significant mandatory lecture attendance as well. It does seem like DO students on this site complain about it more, maybe that's why it comes across as a DO problem, but I assure you it's not unique to osteopathic schools.

I generally agree that MD schools typically have better clinical rotations, but there are cases where DO schools are superior. Especially if the attending at the MD school doesn't actually do any teaching and you just follow them around on rounds and have to figure everything out yourself. I don't know how common this is, but I had a friend who is now a resident that went so far as to tell me he wish he had gone to a different school because his IM rotation was so bad (later changed his mind, as it was his first rotation, but I haven't forgotten that conversation as I was applying to the school at the time). I'd also add that surgery rotations at MD programs with many surgical residents can be notoriously bad. I've got friends who literally stood behind a wall of residents and other medical students for their whole surgery rotation and got no experience at all with actual surgery. For my rotations I did all the same pre-rounding and rounding as MD students would and got to scrub in for 7-8 cases as first or second assist/week. Two of the students on my rotation going into surgery got to perform a minor surgeries under supervision of the attending, something I haven't heard any MD students having the opportunity to do until 4th year sub-i's. The ironic thing is that surgery is typically a field that favors MDs, and some of them may have far inferior clinical experiences to their DO counterparts.

Hm i guess COCA isn’t enforcing them as strictly as LCME.

Regarding preceptor shadowing, I guess that’s good news. It just seems somehow prevalent when MD attendings hop on here and repeatedly complain that incoming DO interns are weak clinically because of weaker clinical rotations in med school... and then these attendings specifically and repeatedly blaming them on preceptor shadowing. So this association makes it seem that DO schools have weak clinical rotations, because of preceptor shadowing.

Again, agree with most of what you're saying, but at the same time I've heard plenty of attendings make complaints (less so on here) when they have no idea what they're talking about with DO school rotations. Some of the misconceptions I've heard about DO education in general from MDs have blown my mind (the craziest being an MD thinking all our clinical attendings were either DOs or chiropracters, which led to an interesting conversation where he realized he knew nothing at all about the DO profession). Some DO schools do have shadowing, one of my rotations was essentially shadowing, not because the attending wouldn't let us do anything but because the hospital didn't allow any non-employee access to their EMR or to see patients without physician oversight. So given that 3 students were on rotation, he felt it was better to have us observe and just teach while seeing the patient/right after than have us do everything as he and 2 other students watch you, then have him step in and correct everything you say/do wrong in front of the patient.

I never said there wouldn’t still be a bias. Or that DO students who want competitive specialties won’t have to work a little harder than their MD counterparts. But the fact of the matter is obtaining competitive specialities as a DO is more than possible. There are lots and lots of DO surgeons in all different specialities. At the hospital where I work we have 6 trauma surgeons and of them 3 are DOs. If you’re a DO and you want a competitive speciality it’s more than possible. Boards, clinical, and lots of hard work though.

Most DOs in those surgical sub-specialties went through AOA programs, not ACGME programs and there is extremely heavy bias. So much so that there are only 1 or 2 DOs who match into ortho or neurosurg or derm or any other very competitive field on the ACGME side each year. Plastics is even worse as there's only 2 or 3 DOs who have ever matched into integrated plastics (I know because my school produced the first one in 2012 or 2013). Also, trauma surgery is not it's own field, it's a fellowship pursued after a gen surgery residency, so it is pretty reasonable (although harder) for a DO to enter than a surgical field with it's own residency like ortho or neuro.

To give a pre-med example: getting into an ACGME ortho or neurosurg program as a DO is like getting accepted into an MD school with a 22 MCAT (495 on the new scale). It's possible and a few people get in with that score every year, but it's very uncommon and wouldn't recommend a person with that MCAT apply without either some serious app re-building or being exceptional in every category with some sort of connection where they're applying.

@hales1120 , if you get into the MD school, I'd go there. Not because UNECOM isn't a good school or there's anything wrong with it (I'm not too familiar with it, but from what I understand it is a solid school), but because you won't have to worry about the handicap of coming from a DO school attending the MD program. I also don't think the reasons you're giving for preferring the DO school aren't really strong enough to override an MD acceptance to that school (similar curriculum, both near home in a smaller state, similar tuition [actually cheaper at tufts if you get the 25k scholarship], etc). If it were me, I'd take the MD acceptance (and I'm saying this as a 4th year DO student with no regrets about my school choice).

 

[Courtneylynn08]

Wow what a load of garbage, I don’t even know where to start. First, there absolutely is no “DO” philosophy, that is simply propaganda that simply isn’t true. We don’t learn any extra “holistic” things than MDs do. .

To be fair I️ never said “holistic” and DO do learn a extra that MDs don’t it’s called OMM. Which to some could be considered a “holistic” approach, but I️ didn’t call it “holistic”. I simply stated that OM was the difference.

That being said my argument still stands as far as a different philosophy, there is a reason why a lot of DOs go into primary care and preventative care. It might not be a line in the sand but the methods differ slightly. Though I️ will not make a judgement on which is better because I️ believe there are benefits to both approaches.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[hales1120]

There will still be bias, and it will likely remain for at least another decade. The good news is that many formerly AOA programs will continue to favor DO applicants for a while as well. So while it will get harder for DOs to match, we won't be locked out of any fields.



A few quick points. Idk what UNECOM's clinical courses require, but not all DO schools take the DO shelf exams. At my school we take all NBME (MD) shelf exams other than family medicine (have to fit OMM in somewhere...). We do all have to take COMLEX, which sucks, but that's life.

Mandatory lecture attendance doesn't just occur at DO schools, I've talked to MD students who had significant mandatory lecture attendance as well. It does seem like DO students on this site complain about it more, maybe that's why it comes across as a DO problem, but I assure you it's not unique to osteopathic schools.

I generally agree that MD schools typically have better clinical rotations, but there are cases where DO schools are superior. Especially if the attending at the MD school doesn't actually do any teaching and you just follow them around on rounds and have to figure everything out yourself. I don't know how common this is, but I had a friend who is now a resident that went so far as to tell me he wish he had gone to a different school because his IM rotation was so bad (later changed his mind, as it was his first rotation, but I haven't forgotten that conversation as I was applying to the school at the time). I'd also add that surgery rotations at MD programs with many surgical residents can be notoriously bad. I've got friends who literally stood behind a wall of residents and other medical students for their whole surgery rotation and got no experience at all with actual surgery. For my rotations I did all the same pre-rounding and rounding as MD students would and got to scrub in for 7-8 cases as first or second assist/week. Two of the students on my rotation going into surgery got to perform a minor surgeries under supervision of the attending, something I haven't heard any MD students having the opportunity to do until 4th year sub-i's. The ironic thing is that surgery is typically a field that favors MDs, and some of them may have far inferior clinical experiences to their DO counterparts.



Again, agree with most of what you're saying, but at the same time I've heard plenty of attendings make complaints (less so on here) when they have no idea what they're talking about with DO school rotations. Some of the misconceptions I've heard about DO education in general from MDs have blown my mind (the craziest being an MD thinking all our clinical attendings were either DOs or chiropracters, which led to an interesting conversation where he realized he knew nothing at all about the DO profession). Some DO schools do have shadowing, one of my rotations was essentially shadowing, not because the attending wouldn't let us do anything but because the hospital didn't allow any non-employee access to their EMR or to see patients without physician oversight. So given that 3 students were on rotation, he felt it was better to have us observe and just teach while seeing the patient/right after than have us do everything as he and 2 other students watch you, then have him step in and correct everything you say/do wrong in front of the patient.



Most DOs in those surgical sub-specialties went through AOA programs, not ACGME programs and there is extremely heavy bias. So much so that there are only 1 or 2 DOs who match into ortho or neurosurg or derm or any other very competitive field on the ACGME side each year. Plastics is even worse as there's only 2 or 3 DOs who have ever matched into integrated plastics (I know because my school produced the first one in 2012 or 2013). Also, trauma surgery is not it's own field, it's a fellowship pursued after a gen surgery residency, so it is pretty reasonable (although harder) for a DO to enter than a surgical field with it's own residency like ortho or neuro.

To give a pre-med example: getting into an ACGME ortho or neurosurg program as a DO is like getting accepted into an MD school with a 22 MCAT (495 on the new scale). It's possible and a few people get in with that score every year, but it's very uncommon and wouldn't recommend a person with that MCAT apply without either some serious app re-building or being exceptional in every category with some sort of connection where they're applying.

@hales1120 , if you get into the MD school, I'd go there. Not because UNECOM isn't a good school or there's anything wrong with it (I'm not too familiar with it, but from what I understand it is a solid school), but because you won't have to worry about the handicap of coming from a DO school attending the MD program. I also don't think the reasons you're giving for preferring the DO school aren't really strong enough to override an MD acceptance to that school (similar curriculum, both near home in a smaller state, similar tuition [actually cheaper at tufts if you get the 25k scholarship], etc). If it were me, I'd take the MD acceptance (and I'm saying this as a 4th year DO student with no regrets about my school choice).

There will still be bias, and it will likely remain for at least another decade. The good news is that many formerly AOA programs will continue to favor DO applicants for a while as well. So while it will get harder for DOs to match, we won't be locked out of any fields.



A few quick points. Idk what UNECOM's clinical courses require, but not all DO schools take the DO shelf exams. At my school we take all NBME (MD) shelf exams other than family medicine (have to fit OMM in somewhere...). We do all have to take COMLEX, which sucks, but that's life.

Mandatory lecture attendance doesn't just occur at DO schools, I've talked to MD students who had significant mandatory lecture attendance as well. It does seem like DO students on this site complain about it more, maybe that's why it comes across as a DO problem, but I assure you it's not unique to osteopathic schools.

I generally agree that MD schools typically have better clinical rotations, but there are cases where DO schools are superior. Especially if the attending at the MD school doesn't actually do any teaching and you just follow them around on rounds and have to figure everything out yourself. I don't know how common this is, but I had a friend who is now a resident that went so far as to tell me he wish he had gone to a different school because his IM rotation was so bad (later changed his mind, as it was his first rotation, but I haven't forgotten that conversation as I was applying to the school at the time). I'd also add that surgery rotations at MD programs with many surgical residents can be notoriously bad. I've got friends who literally stood behind a wall of residents and other medical students for their whole surgery rotation and got no experience at all with actual surgery. For my rotations I did all the same pre-rounding and rounding as MD students would and got to scrub in for 7-8 cases as first or second assist/week. Two of the students on my rotation going into surgery got to perform a minor surgeries under supervision of the attending, something I haven't heard any MD students having the opportunity to do until 4th year sub-i's. The ironic thing is that surgery is typically a field that favors MDs, and some of them may have far inferior clinical experiences to their DO counterparts.



Again, agree with most of what you're saying, but at the same time I've heard plenty of attendings make complaints (less so on here) when they have no idea what they're talking about with DO school rotations. Some of the misconceptions I've heard about DO education in general from MDs have blown my mind (the craziest being an MD thinking all our clinical attendings were either DOs or chiropracters, which led to an interesting conversation where he realized he knew nothing at all about the DO profession). Some DO schools do have shadowing, one of my rotations was essentially shadowing, not because the attending wouldn't let us do anything but because the hospital didn't allow any non-employee access to their EMR or to see patients without physician oversight. So given that 3 students were on rotation, he felt it was better to have us observe and just teach while seeing the patient/right after than have us do everything as he and 2 other students watch you, then have him step in and correct everything you say/do wrong in front of the patient.



Most DOs in those surgical sub-specialties went through AOA programs, not ACGME programs and there is extremely heavy bias. So much so that there are only 1 or 2 DOs who match into ortho or neurosurg or derm or any other very competitive field on the ACGME side each year. Plastics is even worse as there's only 2 or 3 DOs who have ever matched into integrated plastics (I know because my school produced the first one in 2012 or 2013). Also, trauma surgery is not it's own field, it's a fellowship pursued after a gen surgery residency, so it is pretty reasonable (although harder) for a DO to enter than a surgical field with it's own residency like ortho or neuro.

To give a pre-med example: getting into an ACGME ortho or neurosurg program as a DO is like getting accepted into an MD school with a 22 MCAT (495 on the new scale). It's possible and a few people get in with that score every year, but it's very uncommon and wouldn't recommend a person with that MCAT apply without either some serious app re-building or being exceptional in every category with some sort of connection where they're applying.

@hales1120 , if you get into the MD school, I'd go there. Not because UNECOM isn't a good school or there's anything wrong with it (I'm not too familiar with it, but from what I understand it is a solid school), but because you won't have to worry about the handicap of coming from a DO school attending the MD program. I also don't think the reasons you're giving for preferring the DO school aren't really strong enough to override an MD acceptance to that school (similar curriculum, both near home in a smaller state, similar tuition [actually cheaper at tufts if you get the 25k scholarship], etc). If it were me, I'd take the MD acceptance (and I'm saying this as a 4th year DO student with no regrets about my school choice).

There will still be bias, and it will likely remain for at least another decade. The good news is that many formerly AOA programs will continue to favor DO applicants for a while as well. So while it will get harder for DOs to match, we won't be locked out of any fields.



A few quick points. Idk what UNECOM's clinical courses require, but not all DO schools take the DO shelf exams. At my school we take all NBME (MD) shelf exams other than family medicine (have to fit OMM in somewhere...). We do all have to take COMLEX, which sucks, but that's life.

Mandatory lecture attendance doesn't just occur at DO schools, I've talked to MD students who had significant mandatory lecture attendance as well. It does seem like DO students on this site complain about it more, maybe that's why it comes across as a DO problem, but I assure you it's not unique to osteopathic schools.

I generally agree that MD schools typically have better clinical rotations, but there are cases where DO schools are superior. Especially if the attending at the MD school doesn't actually do any teaching and you just follow them around on rounds and have to figure everything out yourself. I don't know how common this is, but I had a friend who is now a resident that went so far as to tell me he wish he had gone to a different school because his IM rotation was so bad (later changed his mind, as it was his first rotation, but I haven't forgotten that conversation as I was applying to the school at the time). I'd also add that surgery rotations at MD programs with many surgical residents can be notoriously bad. I've got friends who literally stood behind a wall of residents and other medical students for their whole surgery rotation and got no experience at all with actual surgery. For my rotations I did all the same pre-rounding and rounding as MD students would and got to scrub in for 7-8 cases as first or second assist/week. Two of the students on my rotation going into surgery got to perform a minor surgeries under supervision of the attending, something I haven't heard any MD students having the opportunity to do until 4th year sub-i's. The ironic thing is that surgery is typically a field that favors MDs, and some of them may have far inferior clinical experiences to their DO counterparts.



Again, agree with most of what you're saying, but at the same time I've heard plenty of attendings make complaints (less so on here) when they have no idea what they're talking about with DO school rotations. Some of the misconceptions I've heard about DO education in general from MDs have blown my mind (the craziest being an MD thinking all our clinical attendings were either DOs or chiropracters, which led to an interesting conversation where he realized he knew nothing at all about the DO profession). Some DO schools do have shadowing, one of my rotations was essentially shadowing, not because the attending wouldn't let us do anything but because the hospital didn't allow any non-employee access to their EMR or to see patients without physician oversight. So given that 3 students were on rotation, he felt it was better to have us observe and just teach while seeing the patient/right after than have us do everything as he and 2 other students watch you, then have him step in and correct everything you say/do wrong in front of the patient.



Most DOs in those surgical sub-specialties went through AOA programs, not ACGME programs and there is extremely heavy bias. So much so that there are only 1 or 2 DOs who match into ortho or neurosurg or derm or any other very competitive field on the ACGME side each year. Plastics is even worse as there's only 2 or 3 DOs who have ever matched into integrated plastics (I know because my school produced the first one in 2012 or 2013). Also, trauma surgery is not it's own field, it's a fellowship pursued after a gen surgery residency, so it is pretty reasonable (although harder) for a DO to enter than a surgical field with it's own residency like ortho or neuro.

To give a pre-med example: getting into an ACGME ortho or neurosurg program as a DO is like getting accepted into an MD school with a 22 MCAT (495 on the new scale). It's possible and a few people get in with that score every year, but it's very uncommon and wouldn't recommend a person with that MCAT apply without either some serious app re-building or being exceptional in every category with some sort of connection where they're applying.

@hales1120 , if you get into the MD school, I'd go there. Not because UNECOM isn't a good school or there's anything wrong with it (I'm not too familiar with it, but from what I understand it is a solid school), but because you won't have to worry about the handicap of coming from a DO school attending the MD program. I also don't think the reasons you're giving for preferring the DO school aren't really strong enough to override an MD acceptance to that school (similar curriculum, both near home in a smaller state, similar tuition [actually cheaper at tufts if you get the 25k scholarship], etc). If it were me, I'd take the MD acceptance (and I'm saying this as a 4th year DO student with no regrets about my school choice).

I live in Indiana. And the DO school is not in my state.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

I liked my best DO interview much better than even my best MD interview.

However the merger is unambiguously bad for DO's seeking anything other than primary care. So the MD school will definitely get preference over the DO.

 

[jg250453]

There will still be bias, and it will likely remain for at least another decade. The good news is that many formerly AOA programs will continue to favor DO applicants for a while as well. So while it will get harder for DOs to match, we won't be locked out of any fields.



A few quick points. Idk what UNECOM's clinical courses require, but not all DO schools take the DO shelf exams. At my school we take all NBME (MD) shelf exams other than family medicine (have to fit OMM in somewhere...). We do all have to take COMLEX, which sucks, but that's life.

Mandatory lecture attendance doesn't just occur at DO schools, I've talked to MD students who had significant mandatory lecture attendance as well. It does seem like DO students on this site complain about it more, maybe that's why it comes across as a DO problem, but I assure you it's not unique to osteopathic schools.

I generally agree that MD schools typically have better clinical rotations, but there are cases where DO schools are superior. Especially if the attending at the MD school doesn't actually do any teaching and you just follow them around on rounds and have to figure everything out yourself. I don't know how common this is, but I had a friend who is now a resident that went so far as to tell me he wish he had gone to a different school because his IM rotation was so bad (later changed his mind, as it was his first rotation, but I haven't forgotten that conversation as I was applying to the school at the time). I'd also add that surgery rotations at MD programs with many surgical residents can be notoriously bad. I've got friends who literally stood behind a wall of residents and other medical students for their whole surgery rotation and got no experience at all with actual surgery. For my rotations I did all the same pre-rounding and rounding as MD students would and got to scrub in for 7-8 cases as first or second assist/week. Two of the students on my rotation going into surgery got to perform a minor surgeries under supervision of the attending, something I haven't heard any MD students having the opportunity to do until 4th year sub-i's. The ironic thing is that surgery is typically a field that favors MDs, and some of them may have far inferior clinical experiences to their DO counterparts.



Again, agree with most of what you're saying, but at the same time I've heard plenty of attendings make complaints (less so on here) when they have no idea what they're talking about with DO school rotations. Some of the misconceptions I've heard about DO education in general from MDs have blown my mind (the craziest being an MD thinking all our clinical attendings were either DOs or chiropracters, which led to an interesting conversation where he realized he knew nothing at all about the DO profession). Some DO schools do have shadowing, one of my rotations was essentially shadowing, not because the attending wouldn't let us do anything but because the hospital didn't allow any non-employee access to their EMR or to see patients without physician oversight. So given that 3 students were on rotation, he felt it was better to have us observe and just teach while seeing the patient/right after than have us do everything as he and 2 other students watch you, then have him step in and correct everything you say/do wrong in front of the patient.



Most DOs in those surgical sub-specialties went through AOA programs, not ACGME programs and there is extremely heavy bias. So much so that there are only 1 or 2 DOs who match into ortho or neurosurg or derm or any other very competitive field on the ACGME side each year. Plastics is even worse as there's only 2 or 3 DOs who have ever matched into integrated plastics (I know because my school produced the first one in 2012 or 2013). Also, trauma surgery is not it's own field, it's a fellowship pursued after a gen surgery residency, so it is pretty reasonable (although harder) for a DO to enter than a surgical field with it's own residency like ortho or neuro.

To give a pre-med example: getting into an ACGME ortho or neurosurg program as a DO is like getting accepted into an MD school with a 22 MCAT (495 on the new scale). It's possible and a few people get in with that score every year, but it's very uncommon and wouldn't recommend a person with that MCAT apply without either some serious app re-building or being exceptional in every category with some sort of connection where they're applying.

@hales1120 , if you get into the MD school, I'd go there. Not because UNECOM isn't a good school or there's anything wrong with it (I'm not too familiar with it, but from what I understand it is a solid school), but because you won't have to worry about the handicap of coming from a DO school attending the MD program. I also don't think the reasons you're giving for preferring the DO school aren't really strong enough to override an MD acceptance to that school (similar curriculum, both near home in a smaller state, similar tuition [actually cheaper at tufts if you get the 25k scholarship], etc). If it were me, I'd take the MD acceptance (and I'm saying this as a 4th year DO student with no regrets about my school choice).

I know trauma isn’t it’s own field, but it’s a surgical subspeciality. One that requires a gen surgery residency. But aren’t a integrated plastics and ortho incredibly difficult to obtain for MDs as well as DOs? As I said, I realize that overall it’s more difficult for a DO to match than it is for an MD. So I guess it does make a pretty big difference if you want super competitive specialities. But I was just commenting that my experience working in a hospital for the last couple years is that I’ve seen plenty of DO surgeons. Trauma critical care, surgical oncology, interventional radiology...etc. Just my observations...

 

[studiene]

I don't want to derail this thread, but I'm kind of in a tough situation. I currently have both a DO acceptance and an MD acceptance to begin in Fall 2018, and I'm trying to determine if it's worth putting down the first deposit ($2,000, non-refundable...) at the DO school.

I understand the ACGME and AOA residencies are merging in 2020, and that since I graduate from medical school in 2022, I'll be affected by that. Thus, I'm going to assume then that there will be one universal board exam instead of two like there is now (correct me if I'm wrong?).

However, does anyone know if class of 2022 DO students would still have to take both the COMLEX and the USMLE (or just two different boards in general) after second year? If I can avoid taking two big, stressful exams after second year, that's something I'll need to consider.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

There will still be bias, and it will likely remain for at least another decade. The good news is that many formerly AOA programs will continue to favor DO applicants for a while as well. So while it will get harder for DOs to match, we won't be locked out of any fields.



A few quick points. Idk what UNECOM's clinical courses require, but not all DO schools take the DO shelf exams. At my school we take all NBME (MD) shelf exams other than family medicine (have to fit OMM in somewhere...). We do all have to take COMLEX, which sucks, but that's life.

Mandatory lecture attendance doesn't just occur at DO schools, I've talked to MD students who had significant mandatory lecture attendance as well. It does seem like DO students on this site complain about it more, maybe that's why it comes across as a DO problem, but I assure you it's not unique to osteopathic schools.

I generally agree that MD schools typically have better clinical rotations, but there are cases where DO schools are superior. Especially if the attending at the MD school doesn't actually do any teaching and you just follow them around on rounds and have to figure everything out yourself. I don't know how common this is, but I had a friend who is now a resident that went so far as to tell me he wish he had gone to a different school because his IM rotation was so bad (later changed his mind, as it was his first rotation, but I haven't forgotten that conversation as I was applying to the school at the time). I'd also add that surgery rotations at MD programs with many surgical residents can be notoriously bad. I've got friends who literally stood behind a wall of residents and other medical students for their whole surgery rotation and got no experience at all with actual surgery. For my rotations I did all the same pre-rounding and rounding as MD students would and got to scrub in for 7-8 cases as first or second assist/week. Two of the students on my rotation going into surgery got to perform a minor surgeries under supervision of the attending, something I haven't heard any MD students having the opportunity to do until 4th year sub-i's. The ironic thing is that surgery is typically a field that favors MDs, and some of them may have far inferior clinical experiences to their DO counterparts.



Again, agree with most of what you're saying, but at the same time I've heard plenty of attendings make complaints (less so on here) when they have no idea what they're talking about with DO school rotations. Some of the misconceptions I've heard about DO education in general from MDs have blown my mind (the craziest being an MD thinking all our clinical attendings were either DOs or chiropracters, which led to an interesting conversation where he realized he knew nothing at all about the DO profession). Some DO schools do have shadowing, one of my rotations was essentially shadowing, not because the attending wouldn't let us do anything but because the hospital didn't allow any non-employee access to their EMR or to see patients without physician oversight. So given that 3 students were on rotation, he felt it was better to have us observe and just teach while seeing the patient/right after than have us do everything as he and 2 other students watch you, then have him step in and correct everything you say/do wrong in front of the patient.



Most DOs in those surgical sub-specialties went through AOA programs, not ACGME programs and there is extremely heavy bias. So much so that there are only 1 or 2 DOs who match into ortho or neurosurg or derm or any other very competitive field on the ACGME side each year. Plastics is even worse as there's only 2 or 3 DOs who have ever matched into integrated plastics (I know because my school produced the first one in 2012 or 2013). Also, trauma surgery is not it's own field, it's a fellowship pursued after a gen surgery residency, so it is pretty reasonable (although harder) for a DO to enter than a surgical field with it's own residency like ortho or neuro.

To give a pre-med example: getting into an ACGME ortho or neurosurg program as a DO is like getting accepted into an MD school with a 22 MCAT (495 on the new scale). It's possible and a few people get in with that score every year, but it's very uncommon and wouldn't recommend a person with that MCAT apply without either some serious app re-building or being exceptional in every category with some sort of connection where they're applying.

@hales1120 , if you get into the MD school, I'd go there. Not because UNECOM isn't a good school or there's anything wrong with it (I'm not too familiar with it, but from what I understand it is a solid school), but because you won't have to worry about the handicap of coming from a DO school attending the MD program. I also don't think the reasons you're giving for preferring the DO school aren't really strong enough to override an MD acceptance to that school (similar curriculum, both near home in a smaller state, similar tuition [actually cheaper at tufts if you get the 25k scholarship], etc). If it were me, I'd take the MD acceptance (and I'm saying this as a 4th year DO student with no regrets about my school choice).

Can I ask where you go to school?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I don't want to derail this thread, but I'm kind of in a tough situation. I currently have both a DO acceptance and an MD acceptance to begin in Fall 2018, and I'm trying to determine if it's worth putting down the first deposit ($2,000, non-refundable...) at the DO school.

There is no debate. Just take the MD acceptance and save your $2000

I understand the ACGME and AOA residencies are merging in 2020, and that since I graduate from medical school in 2022, I'll be affected by that. Thus, I'm going to assume then that there will be one universal board exam instead of two like there is now (correct me if I'm wrong?).

However, does anyone know if class of 2022 DO students would still have to take both the COMLEX and the USMLE (or just two different boards in general) after second year? If I can avoid taking two big, stressful exams after second year, that's something I'll need to consider.

You will still be taking the COMLEX as a DO for the foreseeable future

 

[jg250453]

I don't want to derail this thread, but I'm kind of in a tough situation. I currently have both a DO acceptance and an MD acceptance to begin in Fall 2018, and I'm trying to determine if it's worth putting down the first deposit ($2,000, non-refundable...) at the DO school.

I understand the ACGME and AOA residencies are merging in 2020, and that since I graduate from medical school in 2022, I'll be affected by that. Thus, I'm going to assume then that there will be one universal board exam instead of two like there is now (correct me if I'm wrong?).

However, does anyone know if class of 2022 DO students would still have to take both the COMLEX and the USMLE (or just two different boards in general) after second year? If I can avoid taking two big, stressful exams after second year, that's something I'll need to consider.

Which school do you like better...?

 

[Stagg737]

To be fair I️ never said “holistic” and DO do learn a extra that MDs don’t it’s called OMM. Which to some could be considered a “holistic” approach, but I️ didn’t call it “holistic”. I simply stated that OM was the difference.

That being said my argument still stands as far as a different philosophy, there is a reason why a lot of DOs go into primary care and preventative care. It might not be a line in the sand but the methods differ slightly. Though I️ will not make a judgement on which is better because I️ believe there are benefits to both approaches.

You said that DOs take a "whole body approach", which is still BS as DO curriculums are basically exactly the same as MD curriculums + OMM. The only people I've talked to who are adamant about believing there's a "different philosophy" are the old guard DO's who are still convinced that OMM is essential to being a good physician and refuse to acknowledge that modern DOs and MDs are the same thing. Sure, we know OMM. However given the fact that 90% of DOs don't use it after medical school and almost all of us think certain modalities are complete garbage (Chapman's points, cranial).

Additionally why more DOs go into primary care has nothing to do with the "DO philosophy". It partially has to do with the fact that our Step 1 and 2 scores are on average lower, we typically have less research experience, less exposure to big name institutions, and there's an inherent bias, meaning to get into a more competitive specialty you have to not be as good as you MD competition on paper, you've got to be better. Which is easier said than done when you're competing against the best of the best. Additionally most DO schools select for applicants who want to become PCPs, when you do that you're naturally going to have a higher number of students going into primary care than schools where more people enter wanting to specialize.

I live in Indiana. And the DO school is not in my state.

Sorry, mixed you up with another poster. Even with that, I stand by my statement that in your situation I'd choose the MD school.

I know trauma isn’t it’s own field, but it’s a surgical subspeciality. One that requires a gen surgery residency. But aren’t a integrated plastics and ortho incredibly difficult to obtain for MDs as well as DOs? As I said, I realize that overall it’s more difficult for a DO to match than it is for an MD. So I guess it does make a pretty big difference if you want super competitive specialities. But I was just commenting that my experience working in a hospital for the last couple years is that I’ve seen plenty of DO surgeons. Trauma critical care, surgical oncology, interventional radiology...etc. Just my observations...

They are difficult, but not nearly as difficult as MDs, and certainly not exclusive. For example, there are less than 5 DOs who have been accepted into an integrated plastics residency ever. For ortho in 2016, 649 USMDs matched into ACGME ortho, 4 DOs did. If you scored between a 220 and 230 on Step 1 as a USMD you had over a 60% chance of matching. If you were a DO, you didn't match if you scored below a 240. So for the more competitive specialties, you're at a huge disadvantage as a DO.

It's also important to look at when the physicians you know did their residency. One of my mentors was a DO ortho who did his residency in the late 80's. He said back then there was no such thing as a competitive specialty, if you wanted to enter a field all you had to do was apply to 8-10 programs and you were in. Today that couldn't be farther from the truth, even for MDs (though DOs have it much worse). The saving grace for DOs previously was that there were plenty of AOA positions in the hypercompetitive fields to ensure those goals were still reasonable. After the merger, this will slowly dissipate as the formerly AOA programs stop favoring DOs and start to simply take the strongest applicants (as MDs simply have more availability of resources to beef up their apps than most DO students do). So while I completely believe your observations and think the conclusions you have drawn are reasonable in terms of logic, in the context of the current match climate many of those docs may likely have ended up in other fields.

Can I ask where you go to school?

PM'd

 

[jg250453]

You said that DOs take a "whole body approach", which is still BS as DO curriculums are basically exactly the same as MD curriculums + OMM. The only people I've talked to who are adamant about believing there's a "different philosophy" are the old guard DO's who are still convinced that OMM is essential to being a good physician and refuse to acknowledge that modern DOs and MDs are the same thing. Sure, we know OMM. However given the fact that 90% of DOs don't use it after medical school and almost all of us think certain modalities are complete garbage (Chapman's points, cranial).

Additionally why more DOs go into primary care has nothing to do with the "DO philosophy". It partially has to do with the fact that our Step 1 and 2 scores are on average lower, we typically have less research experience, less exposure to big name institutions, and there's an inherent bias, meaning to get into a more competitive specialty you have to not be as good as you MD competition on paper, you've got to be better. Which is easier said than done when you're competing against the best of the best. Additionally most DO schools select for applicants who want to become PCPs, when you do that you're naturally going to have a higher number of students going into primary care than schools where more people enter wanting to specialize.



Sorry, mixed you up with another poster. Even with that, I stand by my statement that in your situation I'd choose the MD school.



They are difficult, but not nearly as difficult as MDs, and certainly not exclusive. For example, there are less than 5 DOs who have been accepted into an integrated plastics residency ever. For ortho in 2016, 649 USMDs matched into ACGME ortho, 4 DOs did. If you scored between a 220 and 230 on Step 1 as a USMD you had over a 60% chance of matching. If you were a DO, you didn't match if you scored below a 240. So for the more competitive specialties, you're at a huge disadvantage as a DO.

It's also important to look at when the physicians you know did their residency. One of my mentors was a DO ortho who did his residency in the late 80's. He said back then there was no such thing as a competitive specialty, if you wanted to enter a field all you had to do was apply to 8-10 programs and you were in. Today that couldn't be farther from the truth, even for MDs (though DOs have it much worse). The saving grace for DOs previously was that there were plenty of AOA positions in the hypercompetitive fields to ensure those goals were still reasonable. After the merger, this will slowly dissipate as the formerly AOA programs stop favoring DOs and start to simply take the strongest applicants (as MDs simply have more availability of resources to beef up their apps than most DO students do). So while I completely believe your observations and think the conclusions you have drawn are reasonable in terms of logic, in the context of the current match climate many of those docs may likely have ended up in other fields.



PM'd

So then in your opinion within 5-10 years there will be no DOs entering any surgical specialalties whatsoever?

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

In the OB residency section there is sheet with current students applying to obgyn residencies. Given N is not large, MD candidates are getting more interviews at better places than DO candidates with higher scores. Just leaving this here to consider.

 

[Stagg737]

So then in your opinion within 5-10 years there will be no DOs in any surgical specialalties whatsoever?

No, but I think the number of DOs entering those fields will decrease in the near future, and likely rebound further down the road as the DO bias continues to decrease. It's pretty well understood that the merger is going to hurt DOs going into competitive fields and that it wasn't as voluntary as the AOA likes to advertise. I also have a suspicion that in a few decades the DO degree may no longer be available based on conversations I've had with administrators and the general direction the administrative side of medicine seems to be heading. That's a completely different debate though filled with quite a bit of speculation, so I won't derail this thread further with it.

 

[Mad Jack]

I can’t really answer the specific cases since I don’t know about these schools in particular. I’m just addressing generally why it’s a better idea to go US MD over US DO. There’s a reason why it’s harder to get into MD schools than DO schools, which is why it isn’t surprising why Tufts Maine track is way harder to get into than UNECOM.

I don’t know about UNECOM’s quality of clinical rotations... or the quality of clinical rotations for any DO school that’s the only med school for a state. What I do know is that the DO supervising/regulatory body (COCA) is significantly more lenient when it comes to oversight. What this means is COCA is inherently a lot more willing for DO schools to get away with just mediocre or subpar quality of clinical rotations, such as having DO students merely shadow the preceptors as opposed to actually learning clinical medicine. This preceptor-based shadowing for clinical years is tragically common at even most well known and respected DO schools, simply because COCA allows them to do without question.

Also, you have to take COMLEX and DO shelves at UNECOM. This may not seem to be a hassle now but it’s a pain to study for more standardized exams from more resources when residency program directors largely care about how you did on USMLE, a larger beast to deal with. The fact that program directors put little or diminishing value on COMLEX scores is kind of a slap to your face and a disrespect on how much work you put into it.

Not to mention COCA allows DO schools to have absurd preclinical curricula, such as mandatory lecture attendance. But more respected DO schools seem to avoid this problem, which is good.

These are just my thoughts in the most general sense. For specific schools in question, I’d refer to @Goro @AnatomyGrey12 @Mad Jack @Stagg737 or the school-specific threads.

Every DO school requires the COMLEX. Ob/Gyn is a fairly okay field for DOs. Still going to open more doors going MD though. UNE is a great school.

 

[studiene]

Which school do you like better...?

I like different things about both schools. They are so difficult to directly compare with one another.

There is no debate. Just take the MD acceptance and save your $2000

You will still be taking the COMLEX as a DO for the foreseeable future

Thank you. So just out of curiosity, if DO students will still be required to take the COMLEX (and the MD students will still take the USMLE) and some DO students don’t opt to take the USMLE, how can programs even compare those DO students who didn’t take the USMLE to MD students? From my understanding the scoring is completely different and the styles of questions are also different.

 

[jg250453]

No, but I think the number of DOs entering those fields will decrease in the near future, and likely rebound further down the road as the DO bias continues to decrease. It's pretty well understood that the merger is going to hurt DOs going into competitive fields and that it wasn't as voluntary as the AOA likes to advertise. I also have a suspicion that in a few decades the DO degree may no longer be available based on conversations I've had with administrators and the general direction the administrative side of medicine seems to be heading. That's a completely different debate though filled with quite a bit of speculation, so I won't derail this thread further with it.

Thanks for the response. Sorry I have so many questions. I am starting at a DO program next year and really have my eyes on a surgical residency. I guess I'm having trouble understanding. Wouldn't the AOA-ACGME merger only hurt solid DO applicants if the PD's of former AOA programs decide to start accepting mediocre MD's over solid DO applicants? The merger doesn't "force" previous AOA programs to start taking more MD students right? I mean if PD's wanted to they could still primarily take DO's. Just as ACGME programs don't have to take DO's or IMGs. Or perhaps those PD's start taking MD applicants where they once took average DO applicants.

 

[Mad Jack]

I like different things about both schools. They are so difficult to directly compare with one another.



Thank you. So just out of curiosity, if DO students will still be required to take the COMLEX (and the MD students will still take the USMLE) and some DO students don’t opt to take the USMLE, how can programs even compare those DO students who didn’t take the USMLE to MD students? From my understanding the scoring is completely different and the styles of questions are also different.

Some programs pick arbitrary cutoffs for each, others only consider USMLE scores. That won't change.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I also have a suspicion that in a few decades the DO degree may no longer be available based on conversations I've had with administrators and the general direction the administrative side of medicine seems to be heading. That's a completely different debate though filled with quite a bit of speculation, so I won't derail this thread further with it.

Funny you say that, we literally had a guest speaker (DO surgeon) say that he thought everything would be merged within 15 years because there just isn’t a real difference anymore. He said this in the OMM class, so I’m fairly confident the OMM faculty weren’t super pleased lol.

nd some DO students don’t opt to take the USMLE, how can programs even compare those DO students who didn’t take the USMLE to MD students? From my understanding the scoring is completely different and the styles of questions are also different.

This is why every DO student should plan on taking the USMLE. Honestly they just need to get rid of COMLEX and just tack on an OMM portion for DO students but they won’t because it is a big money maker. If you want to be compared to an MD then take the same test. It might not completely eliminate the bias but it for sure can help lessen it.

 

[Mad Jack]

Thanks for the response. Sorry I have so many questions. I am starting at a DO program next year and really have my eyes on a surgical residency. I guess I'm having trouble understanding. Wouldn't the AOA-ACGME merger only hurt solid DO applicants if the PD's of former AOA programs decide to start accepting mediocre MD's over solid DO applicants? The merger doesn't "force" previous AOA programs to start taking more MD students right? I mean if PD's wanted to they could still primarily take DO's. Just as ACGME programs don't have to take DO's or IMGs. Or perhaps those PD's start taking MD applicants where they once took average DO applicants.

Surg is tough to match as a DO. It's going to hurt DO applicants in surgery, aside from Ob/Gyn where they'll likely still be fine (inb4 Ob/Gyn isn't surgery). DOs do not win with the merger in competitive specialties, and there's enough people who like punishing themselves brutally that surgery remains a very popular option.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Wouldn't the AOA-ACGME merger only hurt solid DO applicants if the PD's of former AOA programs decide to start accepting mediocre MD's over solid DO applicants?

Yes. And how many MDs they will take remains to be seen but if even one is taken over a DO that means the competitiveness was just driven up.

The merger doesn't "force" previous AOA programs to start taking more MD students right?

No, and some won’t. Our programs have straight up said they won’t be taking MDs, but that doesn’t mean they will all think this way.

Now it depends on the surgical residency you are looking for. If it’s a surgical sub you better get good research and do very well on boards. General surgery is doable and will likely remain to be so. The bottom line is that if you want X specialty then you need to put together an X specialty worthy app, if you do this you will most likely still have a good shot from what I have seen from people who have matched or are currently applying.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Surg is tough to match as a DO

Yep, you need to be above average. General surgery isn’t on the same level as the subs but you still need to be a solid applicant.

 

[jg250453]

Yes. And how many MDs they will take remains to be seen but if even one is taken over a DO that means the competitiveness was just driven up.



No, and some won’t. Our programs have straight up said they won’t be taking MDs, but that doesn’t mean they will all think this way.

Now it depends on the surgical residency you are looking for. If it’s a surgical sub you better get good research and do very well on boards. General surgery is doable and will likely remain to be so. The bottom line is that if you want X specialty then you need to put together an X specialty worthy app, if you do this you will most likely still have a good shot from what I have seen from people who have matched or are currently applying.

Thanks for the response...that's kind of how I'm seeing it but I'm a rookie just trying to make sense of it all

 

[Scrubb]

Interviewed a couple weeks ago at RVU-CO and the COM Dean spoke about how they are considering nixing the COMLEX requirement within the next few classes. Don’t know how much merit that carries but it was said. So, that idea may be out there for other schools as well.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Interviewed a couple weeks ago at RVU-CO and the COM Dean spoke about how they are considering nixing the COMLEX requirement within the next few classes. Don’t know how much merit that carries but it was said. So, that idea may be out there for other schools as well.

A school cannot simply “decide to nix the COMLEX requirement.” Until the law changes DO students have to pass the COMLEX to legally be licensed and practice medicine. He may have been referring to the governing bodies thinking about changing the law, but at this moment I don’t see this happening anytime soon and definitely not before you would take boards. The soonest I could see it would most likely be after 2020 when the residency merger is 100% complete.

 

[Stagg737]

Thanks for the response. Sorry I have so many questions. I am starting at a DO program next year and really have my eyes on a surgical residency. I guess I'm having trouble understanding. Wouldn't the AOA-ACGME merger only hurt solid DO applicants if the PD's of former AOA programs decide to start accepting mediocre MD's over solid DO applicants? The merger doesn't "force" previous AOA programs to start taking more MD students right? I mean if PD's wanted to they could still primarily take DO's. Just as ACGME programs don't have to take DO's or IMGs. Or perhaps those PD's start taking MD applicants where they once took average DO applicants.

The issue is that MDs were not previously allowed to apply for AOA residencies while DOs could apply ACGME. So now that there will be no AOA programs, it means more spots for MDs while spots for DOs stay the same. So if more MD applicants start applying to formerly AOA residencies, it just makes those slots more competitive. That being said, MDs are far less likely to apply to formerly AOA programs in the less competitive fields like FM, psych, or IM. They're more likely to do it in areas that are already competitive on the MD side like ortho or neurosurg, which potentially leads to DO applicants getting pushed into the less competitive fields if they're not on par with their MD counterparts (which can be tough given MD students generally have more access to certain resources than DO students).

So yes, it will hurt if former AOA PD's start accepting mediocre MDs, but mathematically it's also a bad deal for DO students as a whole until the bias is completely eliminated and DO students have access to the same resources as their MD counterparts. The reason it even happened in the first place is because the ACGME said they would cut DOs off from ACGME fellowships if the merger didn't happen (it's more complex than that, but that's the short story). You should still be fine for gen surgery, but if you're shooting for a more competitive surgical field you're going to have to stand out even more than current applicants once the merger goes through (although some programs have said they'll continue only taking only DOs at least in the near future).

Funny you say that, we literally had a guest speaker (DO surgeon) say that he thought everything would be merged within 15 years because there just isn’t a real difference anymore. He said this in the OMM class, so I’m fairly confident the OMM faculty weren’t super pleased lol.

That's the sentiment I've gotten from every person I've talked to other than those working in the upper levels of COCA (who will obviously hold onto their view of DO independence as long as possible for monetary reasons). The reality is the only current difference between MDs and DOs at this point are the licensing bodies and a few differences in how education at the clinical level is run (as DO schools are less likely to be associated with a single teaching hospital). However, I think most of us (at least among the people I've talked to) see no real reason maintain individuality for the sake of licensing bodies. Though there would obviously be significant pushback from COCA, AACOMAS, and the NBOME which I think would be the greatest barrier in unifying the two degrees.

 

[Stagg737]

A school cannot simply “decide to nix the COMLEX requirement.” Until the law changes DO students have to pass the COMLEX to legally be licensed and practice medicine. He may have been referring to the governing bodies thinking about changing the law, but at this moment I don’t see this happening anytime soon and definitely not before you would take boards. The soonest I could see it would most likely be after 2020 when the residency merger is 100% complete.

Technically the school could decide that passing COMLEX would no longer be a graduation requirement, but students would still have to pass it for the legal reasons you stated.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Go MD. You’ll be thanking yourself when you’re the most stressed out you’ve ever been and don’t have to blow off your other classes to cram for an omm practical. I say this as someone who came in very interested in omm.

Also, even if you go to a DO school and end up with a really good 3rd year, crush boards, perform great on rotations, kill all your auditions, and first author a bunch of pubs, it just doesn’t matter. There will still be plenty of residencies that won’t sniff your app bc they think you spent your first 2 years learning how to massage away cholecystitis and your 3rd year rotating at billy bobs crab shack and internal medicine emporium.

Take the MD and run. You can literally suck as an MD student and get better career options than an exceptional DO student and that’s the sad truth.