Is extreme religious fanatisism ever treated by physchiatrist?

[surftheiop]

It will need attention eventually !!

1. Spends more than 60 minutes atleast two times a day (or total more than 3 hrs a day) for atleast 1 month - preoccupied with religious activities - when not a part of livelihood (exclude priests).

2. Behavior not explained by OCD / SCP/ Other secondary disorders.

3. Unable to accept presence of harmonius existence of other religions ( or the absence of religion)

It just fascinates me how religion drives communities / societies / nations.

Is worshiping a political candidate a religious activity?

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[Shikima]

Nor would I. Assuming even if demonic possession was real (and that's a big if!)....

Having one would certainly set off and possibly validate the hyper-religious psychosis or mania of other patients. It would make you look like you were validating what could be a patient's delusional beliefs, and well ahem, it just looks downright bad--as if you're practicing folk-treatments instead of the standard-of-care.

If someone wanted an exorcism, and the person was on my unit, I'd allow it, but several conditions would have to be met. The person would have to have the capacity to want to pursue the exorcism on grounds that are consistent with the religious/spirirtual belief of their culture, I'd bring it to the administration saying that I backed it solely on the grounds that it's the patient's right to practice his/her religion and have the administration review it before it was allowed, I would tell the person I still need to try medical treatment, and I would want the exorcism performed off the unit.

Let me know if I'm not correct, but the way to handle it would be to discharge from the unit to home. Involved of the church and meetings with the church representative would need to happen as apart of discharge planning. Also, I would investigate the credentials of said spiritual leader and question the motives highly -- as the Pt's care is still in my hands at the time (do no harm).

I think I would invite myself to the ceremony and have it videotaped (For Prosperity's Sake).

 

[whopper]

but the way to handle it would be to discharge from the unit to home.

Depends.

If the person still met criteria for involuntary commitment, you may have to have it in the institution, though it could be done off-unit. If the person was good enough to discharge, then discharge.

In my opinion, in addition to what I wrote, I would not even entertain the idea of an exorcism until I've had enough time to investigate this. This would likely not be done on a short term unit where you've only had the patient a few days.

I figure if anything, this is the type of case you'd see more often in a long term facility where you do have the time, and there's enough time and resources for some intense psychological testing.

If the person does not need to be an inpatient, I'd tell the patient he/she could perform the exorcism, but I couldn't, from a scientific/medical viewpoint endorse it, but I wouldn't condemn it either. If I were treating that patient on an outpatient basis, I would want to follow up the patient quite closely after the exorcism was done, because if anything, I wouldn't expect it to do anything other than placebo effect.

Partly due to my own curiosity, but also in the interests of the patient, I'd be very demanding of the Church to explain their process to me. Like I said, the Catholic Church supposedly has rules about how to do this. I'd specifically demand they let me know these rules because it'd be important for me, as a clinician, to know their process in order to help the patient.

If I suspected foul play on the part of the person wanting to perform the excorcism (e.g. a huckster claiming to want to faith heal the person for a fee of $50K), now that'd be a problem---because where it lies in the legal spectrum, our duty to protect, and the person's religious freedoms, it's a grey area.

 

[danielmd06]

For what it's worth, episodes of recurrent isolated sleep paralysis and sleep hallucinosis (not just visual...but including auditory, kinetic, and tactile) have given rise to notions of demonic possession, witchcraft, and even alien abduction.

There's some good journal literature out there on this.

 

[IvanPavlov]

Based on watching all of the exorcist movies several times, as well as the Emily Rose movie, and extensive reading on wikipedia, I can tell you that supposed possession is usually by a lesser demon, not satan.

Satan does not exist doctor, nor do demons.

 

[sunlioness]

I kind of think that saying "Satan doesn't exist" is as much of an untestable belief as "Satan does exist." Either statement has much more to do with religious faith or lack thereof than it has to do with anything scientifically verifiable. My psychiatric training, while it does teach me to work with people of different belief systems, doesn't really have a lot to say about the existence of God/Satan/demons or what to do about them either.

 

[IvanPavlov]

I kind of think that saying "Satan doesn't exist" is as much of an untestable belief as "Satan does exist." Either statement has much more to do with religious faith or lack thereof than it has to do with anything scientifically verifiable. My psychiatric training, while it does teach me to work with people of different belief systems, doesn't really have a lot to say about the existence of God/Satan/demons or what to do about them either.

Rational educated people simply do not believe in Satan or demons. I am quite aware that many, particularly in the bible belt, believe in such nonsense however that is simply a result of their cultural indoctrination combined with sub standard educational opportunities.

 

[uclakid]

Rational educated people simply do not believe in Satan or demons. I am quite aware that many, particularly in the bible belt, believe in such nonsense however that is simply a result of their cultural indoctrination combined with sub standard educational opportunities.

Would you go as far as saying that rational educated people should not believe in God either?

 

[IvanPavlov]

Would you go as far as saying that rational educated people should not believe in God either?

It depends on the definition of God. I would say that rational educated people should not believe in a super natural God or religious superstitions.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I am rather regretting that my actions brought this thread back to life (though perhaps there is a resurrection-like parable about it?)---but nevertheless I will state uneqivocally that many, many extremely rational and well-educated individuals of my acquaintance not only believe quite firmly in the spiritual realms, but also find these beliefs consistent with a well-adjusted psyche, healthy and mutually-satisfying relationships with their fellow humans, and a satisfying sense of meaning and connection to the cosmos. Such beliefs are to be valued and nurtured, not dismissed as nonsense or superstition.

 

[sunlioness]

Well said.

 

[erg923]

Pavlov:

Thank you for telling us what is and what is not appropriate for us to believe. I am quite aware that you are not a practicing mental health professional, but it would behoove you to know that the benefits of spirituality/religiosity on aspects of coping and general mental health is well documented in the psychological/psychiatric literature. I know you probably wont care, since you seem to have an aversion (or blissful ignorance?) to empirical evidence/data that is not congruent with your own personal experiences, but this is the way it is.

I think its quite sad the people like yourself espouse such certainty and arrogance regarding your own opinion whilst simultaneously judging (i.e., labeling them as "uneducated") and condescending (their beliefs are "nonsense") others for not sharing your opinion. I do not understand who this benefits? Obviously, all of us are proud that you are not part of this profession because our patients (or any human being) deserves more respect than that. As Old psych doc said, such beliefs are powerful reservoirs for growth and resilience that should be nurtured...even if their benefits are only "placebo effect." I though you were big fan of utilizing the placebo effect...no?

 

[IvanPavlov]

Pavlov:

Thank you for telling us what is and what is not appropriate for us to believe. I am quite aware that you are not a practicing mental health professional, but it would behoove you to know that the benefits of spirituality/religiosity on aspects of coping and general mental health is well documented in the psychological/psychiatric literature. I know you probably wont care, since you seem to have an aversion (or blissful ignorance?) to empirical evidence/data that is not congruent with your own personal experiences, but this is the way it is.

I think its quite sad the people like yourself espouse such certainty and arrogance regarding your own opinion whilst simultaneously judging (i.e., labeling them as "uneducated") and condescending (their beliefs are "nonsense") others for not sharing your opinion. I do not understand who this benefits? Obviously, all of us are proud that you are not part of this profession because our patients (or any human being) deserves more respect than that. As Old psych doc said, such beliefs are powerful reservoirs for growth and resilience that should be nurtured...even if their benefits are only "placebo effect." I though you were big fan of utilizing the placebo effect...no?

Do you believe in a super natural God? For instance do you believe through prayer that you can influence the roll of dice or the number which will come up with the turn of a roulette wheel? If not then then why not?

 

[erg923]

I think most Christians believe that god can influence human events...so what? You addressed NONE of my points and I am certainlty not going to debate the god question with you. Note, I did NOT ask why you believe or don't believe the things you do. I don't care. It was your attitude of disrespect (such things are "nonsense") and the insinuation that said beliefs are useless that I was debating.

 

[IvanPavlov]

Yes, I think most Christians believe that god can influence human events...so what?
You addressed NONE of my points and I am certainlty not going to debate the god question with you. Note, I did NOT ask why you believe or don't believe the things you do. I don't care. It was your attitude of disrespect (such things are "nonsense") and the insinuation that said beliefs are useless that I was debating.

It depends on your social economic background and your denomination. For instance I doubt if you would find many high church Episcopalians who believe in a supernatural God that can influence human events.

Muslims also believe that God can influence human events, is their God different from the Christian God?

Do you believe in the virgin birth and if so do you have empirical evidence that supports your belief?

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Thomas Jefferson, 1823.

 

[erg923]

Again, you have failed at debating the topic you raised! If your not gonna stay on topic in this thread, I'm out. Address the issue you initially brought up/insinuated, or drop it.

 

[IvanPavlov]

Again, you have failed at debating the topic you raised! If your not gonna stay on topic in this thread, I'm out. Address the issue you initially brought up/insinuated, or drop it.

I am attempting to have a serious conversation with you however you seem to have an overpowering compulsion to try to control the conversation.

I have no idea what your problem is but I suggest that you work on your anger issues if you expect to be successful in this world.

Your avatar is quite telling, perhaps you are attempting to deliver a subliminal message in a passive agressive manner.

 

[erg923]

I love my avatar, and you do to.

I'm not interested in a debate about god's existence (Muslim or Christian), so unless you would like to address/defend your stated views regarding why educated people should not believe in "supernatural god" I think we can let the thread die. If you do not want to (or simply cannot) discuss that issue any longer, that is perfectly fine, just be honest about it. Do not covertly avoid it by casually turning the conversation gradually somewhere else. You made the statements/assertions, so own it....defend it. Any reasonable person can see that asking a person to clarify and/or defend an opinion they put forth is not an unreasonable request.

PS: My avatar is rather obvious, not subliminal, don't you think?

 

[rmbsstock]

I wish I was able to participate in this discussion earlier. I can say that I have solid knowledge about fundamentalism. I lived among Muslims and Christian fundamentalists for 25 years. Currently, I do lots of counseling with muslim families when they come to me AFTER some of our counselors "screwed them big time". The reason is that many of our counselors think that they have cultural competency and THEY DO NOT. (Some of them deserve to lose their licenses since they put people lives in danger!).
Christians and muslims believe in demons and angels. Both also believe that a person can be possessed by demons. I have never witnessed a human possessed by a demon, but one way to figure it out is when the person have abnormal activities, strengths, or abnormal outcomes, i.e., crying blood, able to be lifted of the bed and get hit on the wall, some change of facial features and they can identify people they have never met before (abnormal powers!!)....etc.
There are a lot of Christian Therapists who believe in demonic possession and are in the Christian counseling field.
I am nothing compared to my great professors who have 2 or 3 doctorate degrees. One degree they have in theology, Psychology and counseling, and some have Engineering or...whatever.
I advertise my services as a Christian counselor since my degree states Christian/ secular counselor. My university is a Divinity university where they teach Christian counseling and I had to take several theology classes.
Yet, I see many muslims and nonbelievers as part of my clients. However, when there is a conflict in values, I tell the client/patient that I need to refer him/her. This happened on the issue of abortion, and divorce. ( Some wanted me to say that it is O.K for them to have an abortion or divorce. They will not get my approval, but they can find a secular counselor who will).
If you have any question about fundementalism, I might be able to help. But, beware, my answers might be something that you might not want to hear

 

[IvanPavlov]

I wish I was able to participate in this discussion earlier. I can say that I have solid knowledge about fundamentalism. I lived among Muslims and Christian fundamentalists for 25 years. Currently, I do lots of counseling with muslim families when they come to me AFTER some of our counselors "screwed them big time". The reason is that many of our counselors think that they have cultural competency and THEY DO NOT. (Some of them deserve to lose their licenses since they put people lives in danger!).
Christians and muslims believe in demons and angels. Both also believe that a person can be possessed by demons. I have never witnessed a human possessed by a demon, but one way to figure it out is when the person have abnormal activities, strengths, or abnormal outcomes, i.e., crying blood, able to be lifted of the bed and get hit on the wall, some change of facial features and they can identify people they have never met before (abnormal powers!!)....etc.
There are a lot of Christian Therapists who believe in demonic possession and are in the Christian counseling field.
I am nothing compared to my great professors who have 2 or 3 doctorate degrees. One degree they have in theology, Psychology and counseling, and some have Engineering or...whatever.
I advertise my services as a Christian counselor since my degree states Christian/ secular counselor. My university is a Divinity university where they teach Christian counseling and I had to take several theology classes.
Yet, I see many muslims and nonbelievers as part of my clients. However, when there is a conflict in values, I tell the client/patient that I need to refer him/her. This happened on the issue of abortion, and divorce. ( Some wanted me to say that it is O.K for them to have an abortion or divorce. They will not get my approval, but they can find a secular counselor who will).
If you have any question about fundementalism, I might be able to help. But, beware, my answers might be something that you might not want to hear

I assume that you are a Christian fundamentalist and you do not believe in divorce. I agree with you regarding divorce, people should be far more selective prior to marriage so as to enjoy a long term stable and loving marriage.

Abortion has always existed and always will exist. I support comprehensive sex education in the schools with full access to birth control and condoms so as to prevent unwanted pregnancies. In addition, I support teaching that sex is a beautiful experience that should preferably be shared with your future wife or husband after you have completed your education. On the other hand there are ways to experience sexual release short of intercourse which should be taught as part of a comprehensive sex education.

If a young girl should become pregnant I see nothing wrong with her purchasing either a Plan B pill or obtaining an abortion after examining her options. Abortion should always remain a personal choice and legal so as to protect the health and life of young women. I believe that most physicians would agree with me.

 

[IvanPavlov]

I love my avatar, and you do to.

I'm not interested in a debate about god's existence (Muslim or Christian), so unless you would like to address/defend your stated views regarding why educated people should not believe in "supernatural god" I think we can let the thread die. If you do not want to (or simply cannot) discuss that issue any longer, that is perfectly fine, just be honest about it. Do not covertly avoid it by casually turning the conversation gradually somewhere else. You made the statements/assertions, so own it....defend it. Any reasonable person can see that asking a person to clarify and/or defend an opinion they put forth is not an unreasonable request.

PS: My avatar is rather obvious, not subliminal, don't you think?

I cannot prove a negative therefore I cannot prove that there is not a supernatural God. On the other hand I think that educated rational people agree with me.

 

[uclakid]

So clearly "educated" and "believer in God" can go hand in hand. At least we figured that much.

 

[loveoforganic]

I cannot prove a negative therefore I cannot prove that there is not a supernatural God. On the other hand I think that educated rational people agree with me.

I have a feeling belief in a god is directly contradictory to your conception of the word 'rational', so there's not much point arguing otherwise.

 

[rmbsstock]

I assume that you are a Christian fundamentalist
, no I am not. I am a fallen human being. I do not believe in divorce, that does not mean that I will not divorce my spouse, knowing what I am doing IS WRONG. But I might chose to wait till all my children go to collage and then divorce. Since, many children in our country are living a disgusting life due to the individualistic selfishness, ignorance and stupidity of their parents.

As for abortion, the law will not scare me to change my values. I had several females wanting my approval as their counselor to go ahead and do abortion. I explained to them that they DO NOT NEED MY APPROVAL to do abortion. I explained to them that the law of this land gave them the right to chose to keep the baby/ fetus/ a bunch of cells, whatever they want to call it or abort it. I refer my clients to a counselor who will help them in their process of abortion.
Why Mr. IvanPavlov do I have to change my values to make my patients happy?! I do the ethical thing is referring them. Some came back to me and said that they wanted to keep their babies, but they cannot afford having them. So, we worked together on open adoption or closed adoption as an option, or family adoption, or guardianship.
I had a client who found out that she is carrying a down syndrome baby. She belongs to one of the prominent well known families in our area. She travels a lot with her husband and the other children,....etc., this child will change her life and her family's life 100%. She did not want abortion, so from the beginning we started on the same page. During therapy, we found several families over the internet who want to adopt down babies. She met them with her husband, ......the child ended up being adopted by one of the families. They exchange photos.
As for rape victims, how sad what we did to these girls in our culture. Girls started learning early on from TV and all the media "every time I see my belly, or the baby moves, I think of the rapist". Yet, in other countries, the victims of rape know exactly how it feels to be a victim, and know exactly the pain of the injustice. Therefore, these girls hide for 9 months worried to victimizing that innocent soul who did nothing to deserve hatred. They end up putting these babies for adoption. In our country, kind of taught our victims how to feel and what to do. Here, we try to fix their trauma of rape by causing another trauma 'abortion'. You do not know how many women go to counseling crying and saying that they did not know that there are other options. Or, they will say that their parents and the nurse convinced them that abortion is just removing a bunch of cells. Later they find out it was all lies. They come to counseling traumatized for what they have done. We explain about God's love and forgiveness, but they have big problems forgiving themselves. One of my clients even affected me when telling her story, she said " I was laying down with my legs up and I felt a lot of pressure. Then I heard something was put in a bucket, and the bucket moved" Till now she asks herself did the doctor throw her fetus baby in a bucket and let him die? What was that thing in the bucket that was full of blood?!" I honestly do not know since I have no idea how they do abortion and if they used to use bucket or ....
A while back I worked in an inpatient facility for drug and alcohol treatment for girls, who were court ordered to be there. They had to have an Axis 1 diagnosis to be in this facility. Many used abortion instead of a condoms or protection. They used to tell me that that is their right. My answer to them was always them same "you lose your individual right when you open your legs and say yes to sex". These kids learn sex before they learn their multiplication or addition. This is a bull**** law of the land, that is why, I stay away from it, NOT just because of relegion, but because it is unethical and immoral and and plain stupidity.

 

[danielmd06]

I am rather regretting that my actions brought this thread back to life (though perhaps there is a resurrection-like parable about it?)---but nevertheless I will state uneqivocally that many, many extremely rational and well-educated individuals of my acquaintance not only believe quite firmly in the spiritual realms, but also find these beliefs consistent with a well-adjusted psyche, healthy and mutually-satisfying relationships with their fellow humans, and a satisfying sense of meaning and connection to the cosmos. Such beliefs are to be valued and nurtured, not dismissed as nonsense or superstition.

Your actions and mine I suppose...but with the best of intentions, no?

And I applaud your abovementioned statement.

 

[surftheiop]

Rational educated people simply do not believe in Satan or demons. I am quite aware that many, particularly in the bible belt, believe in such nonsense however that is simply a result of their cultural indoctrination combined with sub standard educational opportunities.

Have you ever visited any Churches in the areas surrounding "Big Name" Universities?
You would be surprised to see how many PhD's show up. Obviously showing up doesn't prove anything about their beliefs, but definitely is suggestive of some sort of "supernatural" beliefs

 

[IvanPavlov]

Have you ever visited any Churches in the areas surrounding "Big Name" Universities?
You would be surprised to see how many PhD's show up. Obviously showing up doesn't prove anything about their beliefs, but definitely is suggestive of some sort of "supernatural" beliefs

Freud was an atheist, unfortunately it is is becoming painfully obvious that many have strayed and Freud is today, merely the titular head of psychiatry. Perhaps if Freud had created a church then the apostates could be brought up on charges and excommunicated.

Obviously many of you are suffering from cognitive dissonance as you attempt to compartmentalize your minds so as to separate your religious and professional beliefs. This is not healthy and is creating great guilt which can only be relieved by the forgiveness which leads you back to religion in a vicious circle. If you lived in a shame culture, such as Japan, then the catch 22 in which you find yourself engulfed could lead to suicide ideation.

 

[Manicsleep]

I think there is a big difference in spiritual beliefs and beliefs in demons, possession etc.

Also, psychiatrically speaking, this would be delusional only if it did not respond well to reality testing. Education plays are large role here. I would say that certain religious beliefs do skirt that line and are basically large cults. Their beliefs are not shared by the large majority of their followers.

From a psychiatric perspective do we really want to know all the answers/questions. Per the HHGG theory posited by Adams, it is in our interest to have some doubt. Or is that only psychology and religion? Either way, I enjoy the navel gazing patients, small percentage that they may be.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

This thread will now be closed, as it careens farther and farther off of its intended course. We'll just have to imagine the fiery wreck that it was about to become.

Ivan--presuming to lecture your peers with your unfounded conclusions regarding their states of mind, based solely on their brief responses to postings in an anonymous forum, is, at the very least, poor netiquette. If this continues, yellow and/or red cards are forthcoming.