Is a 3.0 really enough?

[kseri]

I've always been told that a 3.0 will guarantee you a clerkship at most programs. How true is this? What GPA would you ideally need to have a good shot at some of the better programs? And before anyone says "the higher the better," I'm aware, but not in terms of specifics. For example, is a 3.4 (even with a couple of C's sprinkled in) competitive at most all programs, or is even that on the lower-end of the spectrum?

Long story short, for those of us looking at programs with a 3.0 minimum - what GPA is needed to be in the safe zone? Any personal experiences would be great and all feedback is welcome and appreciated.

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[dorsiflexor]

GPA is only going to get you in the door for a clerkship. If you can't impress in a clinical setting or you're hard to talk to/get along with or you're simply an a**hole then your GPA doesn't mean crap.

Do your best. Thats all you can do anyway. Why do anything less than that?

 

[kseri]

GPA is only going to get you in the door for a clerkship. If you can't impress in a clinical setting or you're hard to talk to/get along with or you're simply an a**hole then your GPA doesn't mean crap.

Do your best. Thats all you can do anyway. Why do anything less than that?

I concur, 110%. This question was crafted moreso from the concerns of mine and some classmates. I fear that you may get your clerkship with a 3.0, but get screened out during/after the interview process (if you're sub-3.5, for example). Believe it or not, I've heard of this...not sure how true it is. I do agree with you in that having a great clerk month and your "likability factor" are what really count.

 

[TimmyTurner]

Just a 1st year but, here's how I see it.
If you scroll through the residencies on CASPR/CRIP- almost all of them require '3.0 GPA, Top 50% of the class'. Again, not all, but sure seems like all.
Now, just throwing a number on it- could be more or less- let's say 75% of all residencies have that minimum requirement for application.
That means that 25% of the residencies are lying. They cannot only accept students in the top half of their class. That means half of us would be without a job.
So basically... those are marks you want to be above. I've heard a number of times that exceptions to those rules have been made. Some were offhand stories (I heard that so and so re-mediated this class and had 2.X GPA, but still matched at this super competitive residency) and some very specific anecdotes from fourth years with real numbers and real residencies.

My impression... your GPA and class rank help you get in the door for a clerkship. Once you're there, the playing field levels and it's all about your performance during that month.
One of the top students in my class has not picked up a scalpel in Anatomy lab all semester. This person hides out and studies in the back while the rest of us hack away at the cadavers, making mistakes and getting criticized, but we are learning by doing.
So yeah... Try like all hell to be above that 3.0 mark... but my understanding is it's still possible to match at most places without it.

 

[dtrack22]

I have no data/evidence to back this up other than my own experience rotating through "better programs" at least from a "name" standpoint (I would argue some did not live up to the reputation)...you probably need to be top 1/3 of your class and have more like a 3.6.

Like others have said, your performance on a rotation matters the most, but with "better programs" you typically get plenty of normal people that also happen to have 3.6+ GPAs.

You will find good residents at great programs who didn't have a great GPA, so obviously there is no number anyone can give you as some sort of hard cut off. But I guarantee that their sub optimal GPAs did limit their options, because plenty of the "better programs" will have the luxury of consistently taking residents that are in the top 20-30% of their class.

The good news is that there are more and more "better programs" every year. And like someone mentioned earlier, not every program can get kids in the top half of their class...because math

 

[pacpod]

Agree with @dtrack22 that you are going to need higher than a 3.0/top 50% to match at a "better" program. Those might get you in the door for consideration of an externship but that might be it unfortunately. But also like they said, some of these "better" programs are only that in name and not in quality of the actual program.

My opinion is that your month rotating with us is your interview. If you are helpful, know what you are doing, have appropriate knowledge for your level of training (and look up what you don't know) that is worth more than a number on a page. We have come across some surprising 4.0 students - and not in a good way.

 

[josebiwasabi]

I have stopped caring about GPA and instead care about class rank. If you are in the top 1/3 of your class, you're good in my book.

A 3.5 at one school means something entirely at another. My program gets a ton of applications from students from all 9 schools. When I went through the applications I realized that some schools have ridiculous amounts of grade inflation. As an example, a 3.4 at one school placed an individual in the top 20%. At another school, 11 students had 4.0s, and a person with a 3.4 was ranked in the bottom 1/3. At yet another school, the bottom ranked person in their entire class had a 3.4.

GPA without some semblance of standardization is a useless metric.

 

[GypsyHummus]

How is it statistically possible to have a 3.0 cutoff at all programs? Someone is going to be in the lower half of the class.

What happenes if someone is barely passing but still passing and has a good personality?

 

[GypsyHummus]

I don't want these people to make medical decisions in a hospital nor do I want them picking up a scalpel and attempt to do surgery on me.

If you are barely passing PODIATRY school then you should not be a doctor.


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Statistically, there will always be people in the bottom half of the class. Just like regular medical school.

 

[GypsyHummus]

The common denominator aka bottom half students of podiatry schools are not equivalent to the bottom half of "regular medical school".




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Then what do you propose these bottom 50% podiatry students do?

 

[GypsyHummus]

Apply to podiatry residency programs. There are plenty of DVAs and programs in New York that could use those warm bodies.

Don't those places do surgery?

 

[SLCpod]

Don't those places do surgery?

All residencies do surgery. The question you have to ask is which ones have the best surgical training. The more competitive programs have more exposure and better training. Go take a look at the residency program info sheet on CASPR. You should go through the list at least a few times before 3rd year to get an idea of where you want to go and which programs offer the training you desire. I think I'm repeating Timmy's advice.

CASPR Directory, American Association of Colleges of Podiatric Medicine

 

[GypsyHummus]

All residencies do surgeries. The question you have to ask is which ones have the best surgical training. The more competitive programs have more exposure and better training. Go take a look at the residency program info sheet on CASPR. You should go through the list at least a few times before 3rd year to get an idea of where you want to go and which programs offer the training you desire. I think I'm repeating Timmy's advice.

CASPR Directory, American Association of Colleges of Podiatric Medicine

How do you know which programs are the best?

 

[I post PRN]

Apply to podiatry residency programs. There are plenty of DVAs and programs in New York that could use those warm bodies.

Cold. Haha

 

[I post PRN]

How do you know which programs are the best?

Unfortunately "best" is relative to what you want, and it's hard to know what you want until you're already out. My program is pretty well known and we have a lot of autonomy, some people don't like having autonomy and would view that as a bad thing.

Make a list of programs you may be interest, ask your professors at your school about each one, given most of them are so far out of the loop they won't know much, but could give you a baseline.

Most importantly you need to talk with upperclassmen about to graduate, they will be your best resource. Ultimately it's kind of a guessing game.

 

[Weirdy]

Unfortunately "best" is relative to what you want, and it's hard to know what you want until you're already out. My program is pretty well known and we have a lot of autonomy, some people don't like having autonomy and would view that as a bad thing.

Make a list of programs you may be interest, ask your professors at your school about each one, given most of them are so far out of the loop they won't know much, but could give you a baseline.

Most importantly you need to talk with upperclassmen about to graduate, they will be your best resource. Ultimately it's kind of a guessing game.

Any tips for students coming from a state that don't have a podiatry school in them?
Or is podiatry a small enough circle where chances are someone knows something about the residency programs in your state?

 

[bobtheweazel]

Any tips for students coming from a state that don't have a podiatry school in them?
Or is podiatry a small enough circle where chances are someone knows something about the residency programs in your state?

If feel like there are enough decent programs in Texas that someone from your school will have recently externed at some of those programs.

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[Weirdy]

If feel like there are enough decent programs in Texas that someone from your school will have recently externed at some of those programs.

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Good to hear.
Hope you're well.

 

[I post PRN]

Any tips for students coming from a state that don't have a podiatry school in them?
Or is podiatry a small enough circle where chances are someone knows something about the residency programs in your state?

You can usually contact the residency director/secretary and they will get you set up with a resident at that specific program you have questions about. Might be a biased view talking to the current residents at that problem, then again, they know the program better than anyone.

 

[GypsyHummus]

All residencies do surgeries. The question you have to ask is which ones have the best surgical training. The more competitive programs have more exposure and better training. Go take a look at the residency program info sheet on CASPR. You should go through the list at least a few times before 3rd year to get an idea of where you want to go and which programs offer the training you desire. I think I'm repeating Timmy's advice.

CASPR Directory, American Association of Colleges of Podiatric Medicine

I thought all schools had to have RRA in addition to PMSR (three years of residency as well)

 

[SLCpod]

I thought all schools had to have RRA in addition to PMSR (three years of residency as well)

I dont understand the question. Schools or residencies? Are you asking if all the residencies must be 3 years?? They are all three years. Rearfoot training is still optional.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I dont understand the question. Schools or residencies? Are you asking if all the residencies must be 3 years?? They are all three years. Rearfoot training is still optional.

Sorry, residencies. I thought all residencies had to have three years including ankle surgery.

 

[bobtheweazel]

Sorry, residencies. I thought all residencies had to have three years including ankle surgery.

They all include the ankle and ankle surgery, I think that some of them just don't have enough for the additional reconstructive rearfoot/ankle certification (RRA cert). You can still get board certified in foot surgery (which would cover surgery of forefoot/midfoot/rearfoot and general care of the ankle) without the RRA cert.

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[Holten1313]

4.0 or bust.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Is it possible to get a residency even if someone manages a 2.0 in pod school and passes all their boards?

I dont understand the question. Schools or residencies? Are you asking if all the residencies must be 3 years?? They are all three years. Rearfoot training is still optional.

 

[SLCpod]

Is it possible to get a residency even if someone manages a 2.0 in pod school and passes all their boards?

With how competitive it is to get a residency, I doubt a 2.0 student has many options. I wouldn't give an interview to a student with that GPA at my program.

 

[GypsyHummus]

With how competitive it is to get a residency, I doubt a 2.0 student has many options. I wouldn't give an interview to a student with that GPA at my program.

So, what happens to those students?

 

[SLCpod]

So, what happens to those students?

They find another career. They might try to get a job in a state that doesn't require a residency to practice.

 

[GypsyHummus]

They find another career. They might try to get a job in a state that doesn't require a residency to practice.

Did you graduate with people who had 2.0s? What did they do? I find it hard to deny someone who passed all their classes.

I doubt there wouldn't be any residency that wouldn't take someone. In med school, there are residencies that take people with 2.0s and a barely passing Board score. granted, they are limited to pretty bad Family med or Internal med programs, possible after a scramble, but there is some guarantee for those passing students.

 

[SLCpod]

Did you graduate with people who had 2.0s? What did they do? I find it hard to deny someone who passed all their classes.

I doubt there wouldn't be any residency that wouldn't take someone. In med school, there are residencies that take people with 2.0s and a barely passing Board score. granted, they are limited to pretty bad Family med or Internal med programs, possible after a scramble, but there is some guarantee for those passing students.

There are students with GPA's above 3.0 that don't match. If you don't match it is very hard to match the following years. There are more students than spots so programs take the best students. There are also programs who would rather go unmatched than take someone they don't want.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Uh oh.

I was under the assumption that the residency shortage was supposed to get better, and that in a few years, there would be equal number of residency positions and grads graduating. Is this not the case?

Have you encountered a scenario where there was a pod student that would be a good doctor, but had a low GPA (under a 3.0?) can those students get residencies?

Is there more wiggle room for lower ranked programs? after all, someone has to be in the bottom 25% of the class, statistically speaking.

There are students with GPA's above 3.0 that don't match. If you don't match it is very hard to match the following years. There are more students than spots so programs take the best students. There are also programs who would rather go unmatched than take someone they don't want.

 

[Robert De Niro]

While those who have sub 3.0 GPAs have less options for residency, they can still find a residency. You have to be realistic, as the bigger programs will more than likely pass on you bc they can. They have so many applicant for usually 2-4 spots, they need some type of benchmark to wittle the pool down. But there are plenty of programs that have low, or even no GPA requirements (just look at the CASPR directory page). Once you get there for an externship, show them you know more than what your GPA suggests, and be an overall good person. I'm describing a handful of my friends who managed to find a spot with subpar GPAs, but busted their tails 4th year, who are some of the greatest people I've ever met.

The other point to note is that the number of active residency spots has equaled the number of graduates for about 2-3 years now, +/- a few spots. If I remember the numbers correctly, there were 576 graduating senoirs this year to 573 positions. The problem students fail to reconignize (ignore?) are the 50 or so from previous years that are still seeking positions. Some of those 50 will find spots next year, pushing some of the class of 2018 into the "unmatch" group. Now this problem might actually resolve itself, as the applications for pod schools have been down the last two years. Essentially, when the classes of 2020 and 2021 hit their respective matches, they could have a enough of a gap between grads to positions that would take care of the the currently unmatched individuals, hopefully ending their time in financial purgatory. Time will only tell I guess.

 

[GypsyHummus]

So let's say someone graduates with a 2.4 GPA, which programs should this person target during rotation? DVA program? New York programs also seem to get a bad rap here too, would those be good?

While those who have sub 3.0 GPAs have less options for residency, they can still find a residency. You have to be realistic, as the bigger programs will more than likely pass on you bc they can. They have so many applicant for usually 2-4 spots, they need some type of benchmark to wittle the pool down. But there are plenty of programs that have low, or even no GPA requirements (just look at the CASPR directory page). Once you get there for an externship, show them you know more than what your GPA suggests, and be an overall good person. I'm describing a handful of my friends who managed to find a spot with subpar GPAs, but busted their tails 4th year, who are some of the greatest people I've ever met.

The other point to note is that the number of active residency spots has equaled the number of graduates for about 2-3 years now, +/- a few spots. If I remember the numbers correctly, there were 576 graduating senoirs this year to 573 positions. The problem students fail to reconignize (ignore?) are the 50 or so from previous years that are still seeking positions. Some of those 50 will find spots next year, pushing some of the class of 2018 into the "unmatch" group. Now this problem might actually resolve itself, as the applications for pod schools have been down the last two years. Essentially, when the classes of 2020 and 2021 hit their respective matches, they could have a enough of a gap between grads to positions that would take care of the the currently unmatched individuals, hopefully ending their time in financial purgatory. Time will only tell I guess.

 

[Robert De Niro]

So let's say someone graduates with a 2.4 GPA, which programs should this person target during rotation? DVA program? New York programs also seem to get a bad rap here too, would those be good?

Go to the following website:
CASPR Directory, American Association of Colleges of Podiatric Medicine
Just start pulling up programs info sheets and it'll will tell you what are their GPA requirements.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Well, at least with DPM there are no shelf exams.


And boards are pass fail, although that is kind of the case with DO school too, u just end up in primary care. Well see if the residency merger doesn't cause some sort of a scare like it did for pods back in 2012-2013

Yeah you can't do the whole "I'll half-a$$ my way into a primary care residency" thing in Podiatry school like you could in med school. The battle isn't over after getting in like it is in med school. This really isn't a profession for the risk averse paranoid type of person. If you're the type of person that needs a "guarantee" for everything, then don't do Podiatry because you'll just drive yourself nuts.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Enjoy the primary care man, people give it an unfair rap, but I think it's pretty sweet.

I think some DPM's do take shelf exams in 3rd year. I could be wrong though.
Placement rate is currently ~99%. Yeah no one knows how the merger would affect DO's. We'll find out after it actually happens. I'm a non-trad going for a primary care residency so i'm not worried...yet

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I think some DPM's do take shelf exams in 3rd year. I could be wrong though.
Placement rate is currently ~99%. Yeah no one knows how the merger would affect DO's. We'll find out after it actually happens. I'm a non-trad going for a primary care residency so i'm not worried...yet

Wont most DOs have to take the USMLE now with the merger? Or are there going to still be programs that will accept/prefer a Comlex score as well?

Asking simply out of curiosity!

 

[GypsyHummus]

Is there still the 1 year rotation year for DOs? Can you practice medicine with that in the states?

I honestly don't know. My guess - DO unfriendly residencies will start preferring USMLE more just because it's a better test and program directors are more familiar with it. I doubt programs that's been DO friendly would drop COMLEX all of a sudden.
I'll be taking both USMLE and COMLEX, merger or no merger. I did a DO SMP and i sort of have an idea about my abilities in med school. If more board exams makes me more competitive for residency, then so be it.

 

[doctor in da makin]

I have stopped caring about GPA and instead care about class rank. If you are in the top 1/3 of your class, you're good in my book.

A 3.5 at one school means something entirely at another. My program gets a ton of applications from students from all 9 schools. When I went through the applications I realized that some schools have ridiculous amounts of grade inflation. As an example, a 3.4 at one school placed an individual in the top 20%. At another school, 11 students had 4.0s, and a person with a 3.4 was ranked in the bottom 1/3. At yet another school, the bottom ranked person in their entire class had a 3.4.

GPA without some semblance of standardization is a useless metric.

Which school does grade inflation? And at which school is class rank valued more than GPA?

 

[doctor in da makin]

They find another career. They might try to get a job in a state that doesn't require a residency to practice.

Which states allow this? Asking for a friend.

 

[J29622]

Which school does grade inflation? And at which school is class rank valued more than GPA?

I'm not sure, but KSUCPM has its average at around a 3.0. I checked with them last semester to see my rank so this is directly from the "source", so to speak.

 

[Packers4lifeDPM]

Study more and get above a 3.0 then you won't have to worry!! If you can't manage that, then do you think you should be qualified to do surgery and treat patients?? Just saying....

 

[GypsyHummus]

Treat patients? Yes. Plenty of corns and calluses, wounds, and ingrown toenails to remove for people who went cut out of it academically. Doesn’t take a genius to clip and chip.

Surgery? No, I don’t want you near my feet with bone piercing technology.

Study more and get above a 3.0 then you won't have to worry!! If you can't manage that, then do you think you should be qualified to do surgery and treat patients?? Just saying....

 

[Packers4lifeDPM]

We all have surgical residencies....

Treat patients? Yes. Plenty of corns and calluses, wounds, and ingrown toenails to remove for people who went cut out of it academically. Doesn’t take a genius to clip and chip.

Surgery? No, I don’t want you near my feet with bone piercing technology.

 

[GypsyHummus]

You are right, I’m sure there are DVA and New York programs highly sought after.

I was just curious on options students in the bottom 1/3 class have, as statistically, some people have to end up there, if there are any

I would stop classifying all DVA programs and New York programs into a giant cluster of bad programs. There are plenty of DVA programs and NY programs that only take very competitive students and would not consider students at the bottom of the class. I'm not disagreeing that there are a lot of NY programs that scramble and there are some DVA programs that will accept lower tier students but every program is different and it is best to not generalize when talking about residency programs since every program stands on its own reputation.

I would stop classifying all DVA programs and New York programs into a giant cluster of bad programs. There are plenty of DVA programs and NY programs that only take very competitive students and would not consider students at the bottom of the class. I'm not disagreeing that there are a lot of NY programs that scramble and there are some DVA programs that will accept lower tier students but every program is different and it is best to not generalize when talking about residency programs since every program stands on its own reputation.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I know, I’m talking about as an attending.

We all have surgical residencies....

 

[Future Foot Guy]

Grades don't make you a good surgeon and a good clinician. Some people simply cannot talk to patients with ease. If you make it into an externship you are on the same playing field as everyone else. Just because you killed some courses and did well doesn't mean you can transfer that information to the treatment room. Personality matters, and clinical skills matter. Clinical skills aren't necessarily graded. I've heard time and time again that a 3.0 or around 50% with a personality and good clinical skills will have a much better shot than a top 10 terrible clinical skills or poor personality. You're joining a family environment, as far as residency. It is no longer competitive but who essentially wants to work with you. Just because you're "smart" doesn't mean you have good hands.