Ireland Stats

[aks47]

I don't know how others feel about this, but I think it's ridiculous that medical schools in Ireland do not release stats of their first year med class (or at least I haven't found it on the web yet)...I mean, many schools in the Carribean post up all these stats...why don't Irish schools???

I mean, is there something to hide? I hope not, because I have already sent in my app...lol.

Good luck to all.

-- Aks47

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[dr strangelove]

I don't know how others feel about this, but I think it's ridiculous that medical schools in Ireland do not release stats of their first year med class (or at least I haven't found it on the web yet)...I mean, many schools in the Carribean post up all these stats...why don't Irish schools???

I mean, is there something to hide? I hope not, because I have already sent in my app...lol.

Good luck to all.

-- Aks47

What sort of stats are you looking for?

 

[aks47]

What sort of stats are you looking for?

"stats of their first year med class"

GPA...MCAT...demographics...etc

 

[jane2]

Most Irish med schools haven't sat the MCAT and don't have a GPA. They don't use these in the UK / Ireland. THis may be something to do with it.

All Irish med schools publish their entry requirements (leaving certificate points / A level grades) and although it may not mean much to you, most applicants are not North American and so this is all that's needed really.

Atlantic Bridgewoudl be a better place to go to get isolated statistics on American applicants.

 

[aks47]

Most Irish med schools haven't sat the MCAT and don't have a GPA. They don't use these in the UK / Ireland. THis may be something to do with it.

All Irish med schools publish their entry requirements (leaving certificate points / A level grades) and although it may not mean much to you, most applicants are not North American and so this is all that's needed really.

Atlantic Bridgewoudl be a better place to go to get isolated statistics on American applicants.

yes, that's fine...but I'm looking for 1st year med stats...the people who are CURRENTLY enrolled in the Irish med school system...I know for a fact that there are both EU and Non-EU students...what I'm particularly interested in are the Non-EU student stats, because those pertain most to me (and other NA students).

The only reason why I'm asking is because I want to see "official" stats...if they do exist...and if they don't, then why not?

Thanks.

 

[dr strangelove]

yes, that's fine...but I'm looking for 1st year med stats...the people who are CURRENTLY enrolled in the Irish med school system...I know for a fact that there are both EU and Non-EU students...what I'm particularly interested in are the Non-EU student stats, because those pertain most to me (and other NA students).

The only reason why I'm asking is because I want to see "official" stats...if they do exist...and if they don't, then why not?

Thanks.

I don't think there are official international stats. You have to remember that the medical schools are still 'nominally' Irish, and that's the reason they don't keep specific stats for international graduates. I'd hardly expect American universities to keep Irish Leaving Certificate stats for entry into their courses; they're just too different. The only info I can give you is that Irish medical schools require an upper 2nd class honours for graduates to enter (from countries that use that system). That translates I 'think' into a GPA of 3.4 or above.

With regard to demographics, I've attached a pie chart of the situation as of 2003. I couldn't find anything more recent, sorry. I also have the breakdown of non-EU/EU students per school (unfortunately it's from 2000) but I couldn't get it to attach. PM me if you want it.

Hope some of this helps.

 

[medgirl20]

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for but there are 744 places for medicine in Ireland 308 of them go to E.U. students (including Irish) the remaining 436 are non- EU students

RCSI has 40 EU places in a class of 280
UCD 100+ EU
Trinity ~70 EU
UCD ~50 EU
NUIG ~50 EU

I don't know the class sizes for the other universities

 

[ronin13]

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for but there are 744 places for medicine in Ireland 308 of them go to E.U. students (including Irish) the remaining 436 are non- EU students

RCSI has 40 EU places in a class of 280
UCD 100+ EU
Trinity ~70 EU
UCD ~50 EU
NUIG ~50 EU

I don't know the class sizes for the other universities

Because I'm bored, I looked up the number of places for each school (on their websites)

UCD - 108 total students accepted in 2004

http://www.ucd.ie/horizons/programmes/med.htm


TCD - 120 students (60 EU, 60 International)

http://www.tcd.ie/Health_Sciences/medicine/medicineindex.php (scroll down to "Undergraduate Course")


UCC - ~120 students (half EU, half international)

This doesn't come from the faculty, but from a student run webpage (which is actually quite interesting)

http://www.ucc.ie/medstud/newstud/articles/Article - 00002005 - Important Things to Know.htm (scroll down to "Medical Students")


I couldn't find a damned thing for Galway. The website for the Medical Faculty is pretty sparse (http://www.nuigalway.ie/medicine/), but perhaps I'm not digging deep enough.

 

[jane2]

it's just not a normal thing for UK / Irish universities to publish that kind of information about their students. I'm not really sure why you would want it, to be honest?

 

[leorl]

Dude, seriously get out of this mindset, otherwise you will find it very difficult here. Why the hell would they publish US stats? US students don't even make up the majority of international students. Their system of application doesn't work the same way as ours, in that there isn't a specific cut off level of GPA and MCAT that has to be reached in order to be considered. They take a more holistic approach and seem to base a lot on the strength of your essay and also your experiences, both of them subjective.

In the US, yeah they may take a holistic approach to people, but only after they've reached a certain threshold of scores in the primaries. the Irish schools paradoxically seem to prioritize experiences/activities/personality over scores for NA students (although other way around for Irish students).

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Woohoo!

This is what will save me! Holistic approach, my experience and my essay. Im guessing i have about a 5% chance of acceptance applying to UCD and Trinity only.

Dont concern yourself with entrance stats, i know it is easy to get bogged down in the idea (who doesent at one point in time or another). I have just resolved myself to the fact that there are ~3000 students applying and I am not near as pretty in GPA as the rest (and didnt take the mcat). Dont stress, apply and hope for the best.

Dude, seriously get out of this mindset, otherwise you will find it very difficult here. Why the hell would they publish US stats? US students don't even make up the majority of international students. Their system of application doesn't work the same way as ours, in that there isn't a specific cut off level of GPA and MCAT that has to be reached in order to be considered. They take a more holistic approach and seem to base a lot on the strength of your essay and also your experiences, both of them subjective.

In the US, yeah they may take a holistic approach to people, but only after they've reached a certain threshold of scores in the primaries. the Irish schools paradoxically seem to prioritize experiences/activities/personality over scores for NA students (although other way around for Irish students).

 

[aks47]

Dude, seriously get out of this mindset, otherwise you will find it very difficult here. Why the hell would they publish US stats? US students don't even make up the majority of international students.

First of all, I was trying to find stats for the 1st year med students...whether they are from Canada, US, Ireland, or somewhere else...that's not the point.

Their system of application doesn't work the same way as ours, in that there isn't a specific cut off level of GPA and MCAT that has to be reached in order to be considered. They take a more holistic approach and seem to base a lot on the strength of your essay and also your experiences, both of them subjective.

In the US, yeah they may take a holistic approach to people, but only after they've reached a certain threshold of scores in the primaries. the Irish schools paradoxically seem to prioritize experiences/activities/personality over scores for NA students (although other way around for Irish students).

I was just curious about knowing some of these stats...obviously, people got rattled up for nothing...

Good luck.
-- Aks47

 

[aks47]

I was just curious about knowing some of these stats...obviously, people got rattled up for nothing...

Good luck.
-- Aks47

Damn...some of my last post got deleted.

Anways, I was just curious in knowing some of the stats of the CURRENT 1st year students attending an Irish med school...regardless if they are from Canada, US, Ireland, etc...

But I guess they don't publish these stats...

Thanks for your help.

Good luck to all.

-- Aks47

 

[jane2]

I don't think they do. The problem is that (unlike US schools) UK and IRish schools take a lot of foreign students from all over the world who have completely different (and incommensurable) qualifications. In addition, some NA applicants have come straight from high school, and some already have a degree. Some of them have never sat the MCAT and don't have a university GPA. I guess they could publish statistics based on the (fairly small) number of NA students who have been to university and sat the MCAT, but I don't think that they do. STill, you could always email the individual universities and ask. They may have the data and just not make it publicly available.

 

[leorl]

I was just curious about knowing some of these stats...obviously, people got rattled up for nothing...

Good luck.
-- Aks47

Heh, not at all. I'm trying to emphatically erase the idea that you should expect something from the schools and organizations. All your past posts have indicated that you expect the easy pavement that you might see at US schools, but this won't happen. This isn't necessarily a bad thing on their part, it's just a difference. And you will be annoyed at it sometimes, but the sooner you get used to it and prepare yourself, the less difficult you'll find the lesson to learn. I've said it before - the key is proactivity.

If you put an effort into the things you're interested in and want done, you'll be pleasantly surprised. For instance, in your original post, you criticize schools/AB for not having collected stats already, or publishing them. Did you email all of them and ask them for 1st yr's stats? If you did and they replied that they didn't provide them, did you ask their reason for not doing a bit of stats-collecting? They could have any legitimate reason ranging from they don't want it known for fear it'll hurt future applications, to not having enough money/time/staff to do so. My guess is that you didn't try asking, and you're just complaining.

I want all people who apply here and come here to have a great time. But the ones who think they're always in an inferior place because of the differences in the way things are done or because a certain thing isn't provided, and the ones who look at the negative side of everything, are the ones who end up miserable. I've seen it happen. So what little I post now to extinguish some of the falsities in your perception of what the Irish schools are like, might do you good in the long run.

 

[aks47]

leorl:
First of all, you need to calm down and think about what you are saying.

Expect the easy pavement? You seem to have gone way out of proportion on this one.

The only reason I asked is because I wanted to ask if anyone else on SDN has found any stats. As you can see, some fellow SDNers were helpful in providing information. Clearly, you were not as helpful in answering my initial question. Basically, you just went on a rant, avoiding the entire question. If this is what your education has taught you, then I feel very sorry for you.

The purpose of this msg board is to HELP each other, NOT to lecture each other. I hope you understand this simple concept.

Of course I know what hard work means. What are you, my mother?

I thought that it was common practice to file stats of first year medical students...clearly, Irish medical schools don't think so.

Clearly, I've already looked around for these stats...I didn't find them...so, I decided to ask ppl on this msg board if they have found any...If I want to take it to the next level by asking ad coms, then I WILL CERTAINLY DECIDE...you don't have to decide for me.

Why do you assume that I think Irish schools are inferior? Just because they don't publish the stats that I am looking for? You have made an invalid assumption. I never once said that nor did I imply that.

This is pretty sad that I am telling all this to a "moderator."

Good luck to all applying.

-- Aks47

Heh, not at all. I'm trying to emphatically erase the idea that you should expect something from the schools and organizations. All your past posts have indicated that you expect the easy pavement that you might see at US schools, but this won't happen. This isn't necessarily a bad thing on their part, it's just a difference. And you will be annoyed at it sometimes, but the sooner you get used to it and prepare yourself, the less difficult you'll find the lesson to learn. I've said it before - the key is proactivity.

If you put an effort into the things you're interested in and want done, you'll be pleasantly surprised. For instance, in your original post, you criticize schools/AB for not having collected stats already, or publishing them. Did you email all of them and ask them for 1st yr's stats? If you did and they replied that they didn't provide them, did you ask their reason for not doing a bit of stats-collecting? They could have any legitimate reason ranging from they don't want it known for fear it'll hurt future applications, to not having enough money/time/staff to do so. My guess is that you didn't try asking, and you're just complaining.

I want all people who apply here and come here to have a great time. But the ones who think they're always in an inferior place because of the differences in the way things are done or because a certain thing isn't provided, and the ones who look at the negative side of everything, are the ones who end up miserable. I've seen it happen. So what little I post now to extinguish some of the falsities in your perception of what the Irish schools are like, might do you good in the long run.

 

[leorl]

If you were just looking for stats, why didn't you just ask, "anyone know what irish 1st yr. stats are?" No, you say it's "ridiculous" that they don't, imply they have something to "hide," and then imply that even the Carib schools post them which would suggest that Irish school don't measure up to whatever standard you're setting in your mind they should have. That's definitely negative inference. And to make another point, the Irish schools do keep stats - but for Irish students, not American.

Where have I avoided the question? Actually, if you look through all the posts that I have been helpful with, you'll find that this subject has come up before. You'll probably be able to find real "rants" somewhere in there, which this certainly is not, and nothing with what I say is a slight on you personally, but points that people need to keep in mind when coming over.

Yeah, I guess it is a "lecture." But why? Because I've been here awhile and seen the kinds of different approaches and attitudes North Americans come here with, actually met SDNers saying similar or different things as you, and have seen which ones sink. Not academically, but emotionally - so this is my outlet for saying through experience, the roads which lead to a happier, productive experience here. And it starts way before you step on the plane.

 

[aks47]

For the purpose of comparison, I said that Carribean schools posted their stats...just in case people assumed that no other med schools did.

Yes, that's my opinion. I thought it was ridiculous that Irish med schools didn't post them.

Anyways, good luck to all applying.

-Aks47

If you were just looking for stats, why didn't you just ask, "anyone know what irish 1st yr. stats are?" No, you say it's "ridiculous" that they don't, imply they have something to "hide," and then imply that even the Carib schools post them which would suggest that Irish school don't measure up to whatever standard you're setting in your mind they should have. That's definitely negative inference. And to make another point, the Irish schools do keep stats - but for Irish students, not American.

Where have I avoided the question? Actually, if you look through all the posts that I have been helpful with, you'll find that this subject has come up before. You'll probably be able to find real "rants" somewhere in there, which this certainly is not, and nothing with what I say is a slight on you personally, but points that people need to keep in mind when coming over.

Yeah, I guess it is a "lecture." But why? Because I've been here awhile and seen the kinds of different approaches and attitudes North Americans come here with, actually met SDNers saying similar or different things as you, and have seen which ones sink. Not academically, but emotionally - so this is my outlet for saying through experience, the roads which lead to a happier, productive experience here. And it starts way before you step on the plane.

 

[ronin13]

Carribbean schools accept (mostly) North American students, and therefore have a large base of North American styled statistics from which to create information.

With the diverse student body accepted into Irish schools each year (Irish/UK students, Malaysian students, North American students, etc.), all coming from vastly different educational systems (at least, different in their method of "ranking"), I can imagine it's tough to come up with a representative set of numbers for one particular group. It'd almost be like saying "what are the academic stats of all Roman Catholics who have been accepted into the University of Toronto".

And since Atlantic Bridge is technically a cultural diversity program, you could argue that grades are not really their concern (at least past a certain point), so why would they accumulate these statistics?

That's not to say that I wouldn't LIKE to see such a report, I'm just saying that I can understand why it doesn't exist.

 

[medgirl20]

Ask47 I have to agree with leorl your way of asking the question wasn't the best you sounded like one of the few I must add foreign students mainly NA who come here and moan everytime something isn't to their liking. This is Ireland we're a different culture and have different ways of doing things over here when you sign up for an Irish medical college that's what you're signing up for not a NA med school in Ireland. The sooner people accept that the easier life will be for them. I'm not saying our system is perfect but neither is the NA system.

 

[Rasmustown]

For the purpose of comparison, I said that Carribean schools posted their stats...just in case people assumed that no other med schools did.

I think you may be overlooking the fact that the Carribean schools are BUSINESSES which are totally geared towards selling their product to (mainly) Americans. They are money-making organizations with marketing departments which spend a great deal of time and money collecting data they can use to "sell" us their product. Now, as the old adage goes "There are statistics and then there are statistics" and it is not difficult to manipulate data so that they appear to be what they are not.

The Irish universities are not in business and, as long as we meet their admissions standards, they are willing to allow us into their medical schools. Remember, they don't have to do so. They are doing us a favor. Not the other way round.

We can't expect them to spend time and money (Irish tax-payers' money) to collect statistics on FOREIGNERS, most of whom will leave Ireland immediatey after graduation. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for them to undertake the time, effort and expense to do so. I have already found that expecting the Irish (who, as I have been reminded on more than one occasion, have been running medical schools for longer than our own country has been around!) to provide us Americans with everything we demand is one of the main ways we make ourselves unpopular over here.

 

[aks47]

I am actually Canadian...and DAMN proud of it.

I get your point...thanks for offering your insight.

Good luck to all.

-- Aks47

 

[deleted21609]

"We can't expect them to spend time and money (Irish tax-payers' money) to collect statistics on FOREIGNERS, most of whom will leave Ireland immediatey after graduation. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for them to undertake the time, effort and expense to do so."

Your statement sounds reasonable but is actually completely false. In order for US students to be eligible to receive Stafford loans in a foreign medical school, that school must provide data to the loan organization including statistics on standardized testing results. They collect data already so that we can get loans and they can get our money, so everything you said above is bs. Plus, calculating the average of our GPAs would take about 20 minutes-hardly a daunting task.

 

[Rasmustown]

I am sorry to contradict you but this is incorrect. Most of the NAmerican students here are Canadian anyway and the schools do not have to provide statistics on entering students' standardized test results to any "loan organization" in either Canada or the US. Please quote me the regulation from the Higher Education Act or otherwise which states that they must do so.

No reponse, Student.ie?

 

[Unch]

This all seems so re-hashed and moot at this point. Clearly the Irish schools look at candidates differently than NAmerican schools. That's what makes applying here so appealing to many of us. Strong stats still required and quality people chosen but there's no predicting in the end. (Alas, I was one who got in, very "untraditionally" with decent but hardly stellar marks and a decent but not earth-shaking MCAT). NAmerican "stats" aren't available but they wouldn't be predictive anyway. The wonderful thing is that Irish schools do seem to take some people who might not get the nod at many US/Canadian schools (becasue of rigid number cutoffs) because of those myriad factors that we aren't party to. So for all obsessing about whether your numbers stack up to make you competitive, don't (though I did too, of course). Throw your applications in and relax (hah!) and wait. You won't know until you try.

 

[BlondeCookie]

I don't know how others feel about this, but I think it's ridiculous that medical schools in Ireland do not release stats of their first year med class (or at least I haven't found it on the web yet)...I mean, many schools in the Carribean post up all these stats...why don't Irish schools???

I mean, is there something to hide? I hope not, because I have already sent in my app...lol.

Good luck to all.

-- Aks47

Aks47,
Ever wonder why the US schools never publish stats that may be relevant to UK students, such as entrance cutoffs and scores for A level and GCSE examinations? I demand an answer! WHY! WHY! WHY! This is soooo wrong. Why won't the USA med schools publish this data?! Aks47, can you help me answer that question?

 

[aks47]

Aks47,
Ever wonder why the US schools never publish stats that may be relevant to UK students, such as entrance cutoffs and scores for A level and GCSE examinations? I demand an answer! WHY! WHY! WHY! This is soooo wrong. Why won't the USA med schools publish this data?! Aks47, can you help me answer that question?

I actually accepted the fact that Irish med schools don't post stats, but your comments were not very intelligent.

Firstly, I don't see any programs that try to recruit UK students to CDN/US Med schools...thus, I'm assuming that many CDN/US med schools are not "geared" towards accepting UK grads.

Secondly, you should actually pay closer attn with what fellow SDNers have to say about the same topic...for instance, dr. strangelove has posted a pie-chart indicating the ratio of EU/Non-EU students...62% of the students who were enrolled in Irish med schools (2003) were NON-EU (to make this more simple for you, this also includes North American students for myself)

Therefore, it makes CLEAR sense to me why Irish schools would post these stats...next time, u should think about what ur saying.

Although I can't find any stats like this for NA schools, I am PRETTY DAMN SURE that the proporation of nonNA students vs. NA students in NA med schools is much less than that of nonEU vs EU students in Irish med schools.

 

[aks47]

To add, sarcasm can only get u so far in life.

 

[dr strangelove]

Secondly, you should actually pay closer attn with what fellow SDNers have to say about the same topic...for instance, dr. strangelove has posted a pie-chart indicating the ratio of EU/Non-EU students...62% of the students who were enrolled in Irish med schools (2003) were NON-EU (to make this more simple for you, this also includes North American students for myself)

Therefore, it makes CLEAR sense to me why Irish schools would post these stats...next time, u should think about what ur saying.

That figure doesn't break down the number of North American candidates however. You have to consider that there are plenty of other foreign students coming to Ireland to study medicine with other qualifications. Americans only make up a fraction of that 62%. If they start publishing stats for Americans, who knows where it will stop? The Arabs will start clamoring for stats, then the Asians - it would open the floodgates.

Another (outlandish, granted) possibility is that they don't want to publish stats because they're afraid of the uproar there could be in Ireland. There's already a great deal of unhappiness at the medical schools because they are seen as elitist institutes, reserved for Irish children that go to grinds schools and fee-paying foreign students. If it became more widely known about the discrepancies between the entrance requirements for Irish students and those for foreign students, the public backlash might be severe.

 

[Sage880]

The Irish universities are not in business and, as long as we meet their admissions standards, they are willing to allow us into their medical schools. Remember, they don't have to do so. They are doing us a favor. Not the other way round.

We can't expect them to spend time and money (Irish tax-payers' money) to collect statistics on FOREIGNERS, most of whom will leave Ireland immediatey after graduation. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for them to undertake the time, effort and expense to do so.

I understand what you're trying to say and agree with your idea, but everything you're saying here is wrong.....

Are you a north American student at an Irish university (excluding RCSI)? If so, you know what your tuition is. Ask an Irish student what they're paying. It's zero euros a year! Do you think the government and tax payers are paying for 100% of their tuition? Nope, you're paying for yourself and helping bring a couple of Irish kids to school along with you. Funny how there's a "doctor shortage" in Ireland and UCC raised the amount of foreign students admitted the year I started school. Now they're talking about raising the class sizes by about 150% so more Irish can go to med school.

If I were in charge of policy for Irish medical schools I would stop giving Irish students free tuition for professional type programs (law, med, dent, etc) and reduce the number of foreigners. Maybe just take students from under developed countries that don't have medical schools of their own. But that's another topic!

As it stands now, the Irish schools need foreigners who can afford the tuition and who also won't bring the reputation of the school down. They need successful applicants. Your comment that, "they're doing us a favour" is amusing. They need all of us so they can keep sending the ridiculously small number of lucky Irish kids who can score 600 to school for free.

 

[aks47]

I'd have to agree with Sage880. The evidence speaks for itself.

Source: www.medicalcouncil.ie

The following was taken from the "Review of Medical Schools in Ireland 2003" (Medical Council or Ireland)

"The last report drew the public’s attention to the chronic under-funding of medical education. This situation has deteriorated, with increasing reliance on foreign students to fund the training of our own doctors. The Medical Council has significant concerns about the sustainability of this dependence. We think it is time that Ireland paid its way in producing its own doctors for its own needs."

"The reliance on overseas funding must be reduced"

"Overseas students
Irish medical schools also attract large numbers of overseas students and in 2003 the numbers of overseas students outnumbered those from the European Union area. These students are referred to as non-EU students in this report. Over 30 countries can be represented in Irish medical schools bringing a wide range of cultural, personal and healthcare beliefs to each class. These students are also an important economic factor in the running of Irish medical schools, and indeed in the Irish economy."

"Most schools have used the non-EU income to develop their infrastructure and those schools late into the non-EU market are suffering most. There has been little state investment in the infrastructure of our medical schools."

"Non-EU student income has subsidised Irish student education,
staffing and facilities and there is an increased reliance on this income by our medical schools."

"Ireland has now moved from a situation in which non-EU students were subsidising the education of Irish students to one in which there is now an absolute reliance on international funding. This issue is one of national strategic
importance and one which must be debated by the public, by those who provide and rely on Irish health services and by students themselves. In the view of the Medical Council, this dependence is inappropriate and unacceptable.
It exposes medical education in Ireland to the vagaries of international developments in commerce, politics, public health or international politics. At the same time it throws into confusion the key question of the purpose of the medical education which students receive – is that education to be tailored for the Irish health services, for the services of the more than 30 nations from which students come or for some generic international norm which is currently
undefined?"
----------------------------------------------------------------
I think this deserves a new post. It seems clear from this report that Irish med schools depend on non-EU money!!! I find this really interesting because I never knew that Irish med schools RELIED on non-EU money...I know that schools in NA charge more for Int'l students, but their student body is NOT usually compromised of a majority of int'l students...

Thoughts...comments?

 

[Jocks]

Where the hell did I put that fire extinguisher?

 

[rgerwin]

I just came back from the UK, where there is an increasing concern over the looming tuition increase. I found it fascinating that in Scotland, you don't pay anything upfront for university, and then pay back tuition relative to your occupation. So, teachers pay less than doctors, etc etc. I read somewhere that Ireland does have some sort of sliding scale with tuition, so those with higher incomes pay more. Is this true? Also, some UK students weren't particularly unhappy with the idea that Ireland utilized full-paying overseas students to keep the cost of education low for Irish citizens, being that they are facing a possible doubling of their tuition fees, as long as it didn't lessen the number of places available for citizens. It was very interesting. I think the moral of the story is that there aren't any perfect educational systems around, unfortunately. The average US undergrad debt has risen into the 20's recently.

I'd have to agree with Sage880. The evidence speaks for itself.

Source: www.medicalcouncil.ie

The following was taken from the "Review of Medical Schools in Ireland 2003" (Medical Council or Ireland)

"The last report drew the public’s attention to the chronic under-funding of medical education. This situation has deteriorated, with increasing reliance on foreign students to fund the training of our own doctors. The Medical Council has significant concerns about the sustainability of this dependence. We think it is time that Ireland paid its way in producing its own doctors for its own needs."

"The reliance on overseas funding must be reduced"

"Overseas students
Irish medical schools also attract large numbers of overseas students and in 2003 the numbers of overseas students outnumbered those from the European Union area. These students are referred to as non-EU students in this report. Over 30 countries can be represented in Irish medical schools bringing a wide range of cultural, personal and healthcare beliefs to each class. These students are also an important economic factor in the running of Irish medical schools, and indeed in the Irish economy."

"Most schools have used the non-EU income to develop their infrastructure and those schools late into the non-EU market are suffering most. There has been little state investment in the infrastructure of our medical schools."

"Non-EU student income has subsidised Irish student education,
staffing and facilities and there is an increased reliance on this income by our medical schools."

"Ireland has now moved from a situation in which non-EU students were subsidising the education of Irish students to one in which there is now an absolute reliance on international funding. This issue is one of national strategic
importance and one which must be debated by the public, by those who provide and rely on Irish health services and by students themselves. In the view of the Medical Council, this dependence is inappropriate and unacceptable.
It exposes medical education in Ireland to the vagaries of international developments in commerce, politics, public health or international politics. At the same time it throws into confusion the key question of the purpose of the medical education which students receive – is that education to be tailored for the Irish health services, for the services of the more than 30 nations from which students come or for some generic international norm which is currently
undefined?"
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I think this deserves a new post. It seems clear from this report that Irish med schools depend on non-EU money!!! I find this really interesting because I never knew that Irish med schools RELIED on non-EU money...I know that schools in NA charge more for Int'l students, but their student body is NOT usually compromised of a majority of int'l students...

Thoughts...comments?

 

[xerox]

Well, the reason its hard to find stats on Irish med schools especially rcsi is that they are1) too lazy to take them 2) don't really want that stuff out. For US students, as a group we are generally quite desparate to get into med school. When we talk to people about irish schools we hear about how all these people came back and got great residencies. its true, quite a few do come back and do well. But a lot of students can't get back to states because they really didn't train them for the US exams. back to the article, as a foreign student in ireland you not only subsidize other irish students, you subsidize quite a few of the extracurricular holidays and boozing sprees for the med school administrators and profs along with a lot of private nonmedical ventures. rcsi actually has vineyards in south africa. there was a guy in one of current classes who broke down the revenue and allocation of rcsi [because we never have any idea where the cash is going] and he found out that it was simply highway robbery. after a huge uproar by the students, the administrator agreed that yes indeed they overcharge students but argued that it was okay because they can. it would be nice if the quality of teaching and facilities were awesome, but they are not. in your preclinical years you won't find a seat in the lecture hall because they admit more than seats in the auditorium. eventually people get frustrated and stop coming and then you get that elusive seat that you paid 36000 euros to sit in. once you managed to get through the preclinical years. you don't have much waiting for you in the clinical years. the hospitals are overflowing with students. i've estimated that its 3 to 1 student to patient ratio. I can't tell you the number of times a patient's said they were to tired from talking to the other students to talk to you. generally after networking with other students over past papers which actually is the difference between passing and failing at this college, you eventually learn enough to pass their exams. i'll hand it to the college they teach some clinical skills, but until you are really an SHO i.e 2nd year resident. you probably won't learn a lick of management. in summary soft stats concerning placement, tuition, and all the rest because they DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW. i often wonder how they live with themselves. in short GO to the CARRIBEAN, it gets you back to the US in 4 years, it won't cost you the hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay tuition and LIVE in Ireland. it looks good on paper, 'ROYAL' started by 'KING GEORGE III'...but they don't care. they run a business... seemingly by gangters. i'm glad i'm out

I just came back from the UK, where there is an increasing concern over the looming tuition increase. I found it fascinating that in Scotland, you don't pay anything upfront for university, and then pay back tuition relative to your occupation. So, teachers pay less than doctors, etc etc. I read somewhere that Ireland does have some sort of sliding scale with tuition, so those with higher incomes pay more. Is this true? Also, some UK students weren't particularly unhappy with the idea that Ireland utilized full-paying overseas students to keep the cost of education low for Irish citizens, being that they are facing a possible doubling of their tuition fees, as long as it didn't lessen the number of places available for citizens. It was very interesting. I think the moral of the story is that there aren't any perfect educational systems around, unfortunately. The average US undergrad debt has risen into the 20's recently.

 

[Unch]

Once again, sweeping generalizations about a whole system, based on a few "anecdotes". True, RCSI does cost 10,000E more than the other schools and it also appears more crowded (largish class with 220-250 students) but I think you're oversimplifying matters considerably. My experiences and anecdotes from Cork (and I am actually a student here rather than a specious regurgitator) suggest that we're getting a great education, solid access and reasonable ratios in clinical years, and more than enough basic preparation for the USMLEs should we be mature enough to prepare a bit more (specifically) for the exam. I suppose, though, that I am guilty of taking your bait with this response since it's such a tired re-hash of the same "Irish med school sucks compared to the Caribbean and everywhere else etc...". Have fun with your education because I know I am. (BTW, you don't need to shout [bold text]. We're all sure you believe in what you're writing.)

 

[xerox]

You are correct. I generalized a bit with saying all of ireland. I had a lot of fun there. but on the other hand I spent my time relatively irritated at rcsi. I've only heard good things about the other Irish universities. If I had to do it again in Ireland, Cork would be up there. But I would have to say rcsi is a business first, med school second.. which sucks.

 

[Arb]

Hi xerox,

are you doing your residency now? What were the issues that prevented the North American students that you knew from acquiring a residency spot?

 

[Rasmustown]

I understand what you're trying to say and agree with your idea, but everything you're saying here is wrong.....

Are you a north American student at an Irish university (excluding RCSI)? If so, you know what your tuition is. Ask an Irish student what they're paying. It's zero euros a year! Do you think the government and tax payers are paying for 100% of their tuition? Nope, you're paying for yourself and helping bring a couple of Irish kids to school along with you. Funny how there's a "doctor shortage" in Ireland and UCC raised the amount of foreign students admitted the year I started school. Now they're talking about raising the class sizes by about 150% so more Irish can go to med school.

If I were in charge of policy for Irish medical schools I would stop giving Irish students free tuition for professional type programs (law, med, dent, etc) and reduce the number of foreigners. Maybe just take students from under developed countries that don't have medical schools of their own. But that's another topic!

As it stands now, the Irish schools need foreigners who can afford the tuition and who also won't bring the reputation of the school down. They need successful applicants. Your comment that, "they're doing us a favour" is amusing. They need all of us so they can keep sending the ridiculously small number of lucky Irish kids who can score 600 to school for free.

I am a North American student. I am happy to pay my tuition and I will be happy to pay off my student loans when I graduate. I would have preferred to pay it to a school in my own country but none of them gave me the opportunity that Ireland has. I feel I am getting my money's worth and I am enjoying the experience of living in another culture. THAT is invaluable. It can't be purchased at any cost. I used to be annoyed that NAmerican schools did not want me but I am getting as good an eduation as I would have at home AND I'm getting a much better life experience than my friends who went to their local medical schools and will never have the opportunity to do what I am doing. I will backpack around Europe this summer while my buddies at home are working menial jobs in their home towns and doing the same old, same old, same old thing.

As far as needing foreign students to subsidize the Irish students. I think that's an excellent strategy and one that NAmerican schools would do well to emulate. But NAmerican schools don't even welcome international students and they can't even accommodate their own citizens (Canada in particular). The point I was trying to make when I said "They don't need us" is that they don't need American and Canadian students. We aren't the only ones in the world who are willing to go to medical school in Ireland. So, they don't actually need US, do they? They can get students from other countries but they choose to give NAmericans a chance. But they're not obliged to and this is something that we should all remember when we complain about them or maybe they'll just close their doors to us.

 

[ScottV]

Well, the reason its hard to find stats on Irish med schools especially rcsi is that they are1) too lazy to take them 2) don't really want that stuff out. For US students, as a group we are generally quite desparate to get into med school. When we talk to people about irish schools we hear about how all these people came back and got great residencies. its true, quite a few do come back and do well. But a lot of students can't get back to states because they really didn't train them for the US exams. back to the article, as a foreign student in ireland you not only subsidize other irish students, you subsidize quite a few of the extracurricular holidays and boozing sprees for the med school administrators and profs along with a lot of private nonmedical ventures. rcsi actually has vineyards in south africa. there was a guy in one of current classes who broke down the revenue and allocation of rcsi [because we never have any idea where the cash is going] and he found out that it was simply highway robbery. after a huge uproar by the students, the administrator agreed that yes indeed they overcharge students but argued that it was okay because they can. it would be nice if the quality of teaching and facilities were awesome, but they are not. in your preclinical years you won't find a seat in the lecture hall because they admit more than seats in the auditorium. eventually people get frustrated and stop coming and then you get that elusive seat that you paid 36000 euros to sit in. once you managed to get through the preclinical years. you don't have much waiting for you in the clinical years. the hospitals are overflowing with students. i've estimated that its 3 to 1 student to patient ratio. I can't tell you the number of times a patient's said they were to tired from talking to the other students to talk to you. generally after networking with other students over past papers which actually is the difference between passing and failing at this college, you eventually learn enough to pass their exams. i'll hand it to the college they teach some clinical skills, but until you are really an SHO i.e 2nd year resident. you probably won't learn a lick of management. in summary soft stats concerning placement, tuition, and all the rest because they DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW. i often wonder how they live with themselves. in short GO to the CARRIBEAN, it gets you back to the US in 4 years, it won't cost you the hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay tuition and LIVE in Ireland. it looks good on paper, 'ROYAL' started by 'KING GEORGE III'...but they don't care. they run a business... seemingly by gangters. i'm glad i'm out

I am a final year at UCD and have to agree with everything that xerox said and more. (this is from my experience at UCD) the clinical training is sub par, the lecture classrooms are overcrowded with people sitting on the floor. likewise the administration is very un accomodating for the students. Saying that, the friends and people I have met are amazing but I would reccomend going to the caribbean instead.

 

[dirtymac42]

This thread is annoying (but mind you, so am i). So i'm weighing in.

As a Canadian who has been in Ireland for some time now, i just need to say a few things.

1) Don't compare Irish schools to Caribbean schools. There is no comparison. You can't compare schools that literally invented medicine and surgery (then turned into businesses) to schools that were just plain invented AS businesses.

2) I realise ppl want specific stats on things, but the question about GPAs, etc is a non sequitur. In many cases, we are talking about a program here, not individual credits. Do you want to know if North American students do better or worse than any other students? The answer, as you can predict, is that some do better than an "average" (whatever that means) irish student and some do worse. Some even flunk out. But, if you have a degree already, you'll probably be OK.

Relax. It's Ireland. They're chill people. If you want something done yesterday, you're probably heading to the wrong place. They got pushed around for a 1000 yrs, they're not gonna get pushed around by a 20-something "american".

Rant over. Enjoy your summer.

ps. most of these people have no idea what they're talking about! (probably myself included)

 

[Badkarma25]

talk about beating a dead horse LOL....

this topic just takes on a life of it's own. there's really no way to describe how things are in ireland until you're there. if you go you'll have a lot of fun but you really have to prepare yourself for large amounts of frustration on a very regular, dare i say daily basis. this is just the way it is. the idea of student service or customer service simply does not exist. you will find very few individuals in student administration or similar positions willing to do ANYTHING for you, let alone go above and beyond. and when you try to get things done, people will screw them up and then blame you for it, like you were stupid to try and have gotten something done in the first place. that's life in ireland. to anyone who hasn't been to ireland, do not let anyone tell you they have a wonderful laidback attitude. that's total BS. they are lazy and have absolutely no drive to do things right the first time. yes i'm painting a picture in broad strokes but in my experience it's a bullseye.

 

[Badkarma25]

the whole thing about them being pushed around is so annoying. i don't really care who they were pushed around by or for how long. i didn't push anyone around, and i don't really want to hear about it. the whole society seems to have a chip on its shoulder over the oppression of big bad britain, yet the country has so many similarities and everyone wears manchester united or glasgow celtic jerseys. it's time to move on. ireland could be a great country but they wallow in the past so much. ok i think i'm done my rant now. don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to discourage anyone from going, i'm glad i did, i'd do it again and i'm having fun. but it's important for people to realize the romanticized ideas about ireland that many people are really smoke and mirrors.

 

[dirtymac42]

the whole thing about them being pushed around is so annoying. i don't really care who they were pushed around by or for how long. i didn't push anyone around, and i don't really want to hear about it. the whole society seems to have a chip on its shoulder over the oppression of big bad britain

Huh?

Could i hear your take on the Jews or the Armenians or the Ethiopians please?

The fact is, they're VERY touchy about it and it's a good way to alienate yourselves from the irish by poking fun at it. Now, for all those out there that couldn't give a care about 'the natives'... Poke away.

 

[Badkarma25]

trying to expose me as a redneck? let's stick to the topic at hand. i'm just saying it's annoying having to deal with people who constantly complain about the past....get the hell over it...it's just really tiring. if they spent 10% of the time they use bitching about how oppressed they've been to actually get things done, i can't imagine how different a place it would be.

 

[ThatKidMike]

trying to expose me as a redneck? let's stick to the topic at hand. i'm just saying it's annoying having to deal with people who constantly complain about the past....get the hell over it...it's just really tiring. if they spent 10% of the time they use bitching about how oppressed they've been to actually get things done, i can't imagine how different a place it would be.

A Canadian preaching to Irish people about "action" - funniest thing I've ever read on SDN. Canadian independence was served on a golden platter to the Canadians from the Brits, the Irish had to work tirelessly for it, and haven't still fully succeeded.

Don't get into the whole preachy attitude, if you like North Americans so much don't go to med school in Ireland, go to a NA M.D. school or if your stats are too low go to an American D.O. School or something, or maybe those helpful North Americans will "help you" into their medical schools.

Basically, North America and Ireland are two very different places, with two very different set of customs and workplace practices, particularly those in customer service, so don't try to impose your values, even if they might be better. If your unwilling to accept Ireland as it is, don't go to school there.

You haven't experienced the hardship and struggles of the Irish people, or their great setbacks, your condemnations are not deserved and Ireland has done nothing to you to merit these attacks.

 

[dirtymac42]

let's stick to the topic at hand.

I did a full university degree in Canada. Do you think any of the administration of any of my courses even knew my name? No chance.

Ok, what about Ireland? I spend maybe 20 minutes per year in the Student Services and Student Fees offices at Surgeons. As soon as i go in they not only know my name, they can even take a stab at what my issue is. Is the college smaller than my college or faculty in Canada, perhaps a bit. Am i paying more than an international student in Canada would? Not much.

Did i get into a Canadian med school? Hah.

As far as other sectors of the economy in Ireland? Yes, things are perhaps a bit more inconvenient for the consumer but the whole lifestyle is definitely more relaxed/slower paced. Some people can't stand it, others love it. Fair warning. (oh but, btw, irish productivity is actually HIGHER than canada's! look it up , we have fewer ppl per capita working harder but acheiving less overall)

 

[Badkarma25]

will respond to this later.....the hardships of the irish people are very lowdown on my list of concerns. if that makes me an a**hole, so be it.

 

[Fender]

Can i ask what the utopian Canadian system is like? Is everybody willing to go above and beyond the call of duty for every whinging moany student. I did'nt think so.

You give out about how people are unhelpful. What do you want people to do. Giving you a helping hand with exam results? Put their arm around you and tell you its all going to be ok and that it was'nt the fact you did'nt study or know your stuff properly.(god damn it was all the marking scheme/lecturer/oppressed irish masses at every corner that made me fail )
You say these people you depend on always **** things up - what the hell are you getting them to do.'They blame you for ****ing them up'. Well Jesus if they were that important in the first place why trust someone else to do these 'things' for you.
Its funny it always seems to be the north americans who kick up a fuss when stuff does'nt go there way. I'll give you an example.
Two students fail an exam one Irish person and a Canadian (for arguments) sake , both get 48.5%. Both are annoyed. Both go in to see their papers. Both see their exam results and read their essays. Both know their essays are crap. Irish student accepts result, moves on laughs it off knows he has to go work harder. Canadian cannot believe the indignancy of someone to fail them. How can it be possible? Are you persecuting me - remember i'm canadian not american! You must be wrong. Not me could'nt be me.But the Irish are grand they don't pay fees at all they can afford to repeat but i can't.
Take responsibility mate and stop the crying over big bad Ireland and how she has mistreated you.


Thats another thing that gets me. We get free fees (well a 750 euro fee) but yet we continually hear how crap it is for north americans who have to pay fees and how they don't like the fact they seem to be paying for the Irish kids education. I'm sorry but what a load of bull****. They pay fees for 5-6 years and then go home or abroad to earn for the next 40 to 50 years. Everyone, lets see earns 200,000 euro a year (rough estimate i know) thats on average nearly 75,000 a year for 40 to 50 years per Foreign student thought in the Irish Collegiate system lost from the taxation system of course they should pay more if i had my way!
And by foreign i mean non E.U .

 

[Badkarma25]

the last poster raised some good points and i think these will allow me to refine my rant, if i may.

first of all, i'm not coming at this from the point of view that the canadian system is utopian. i will be the first to admit i have never been a medical student in canada, so i can't comment. i've heard good and bad things from my friends who are in and have gone through the system.

i think you misunderstood my criticism of student services. i do not expect, nor want anyone to hold my hand if i've done poorly etc. there are many people like this in my class, and i am certainly not one of them. i've taken my fair share of academic lumps and of the entire group of canadians in my class i think i can safely say i'm the most easy going. i can provide transcripts of my undergraduate degrees for anyone who would like to piss themself laughing.

what i WOULD like and what i don't think is too much to ask is telling me when our exams will be so i can book a ticket sooner than 3 weeks in advance. i don't think it's unreasonable that the biggest university in ireland should be able to sort out exam dates well in advance, as a courtesy to those of us whose travel arrangements are expensive and difficult to change once booked.

as far as people screwing things up and passing the buck, it happens all the time. when i try to register with the police and they only give me a 3 month visa, i ask why i'm only getting 3 months because the previous 2 years i got a 1 year visa. the guy replies "oh those other people made a mistake". the person you are dealing with NEVER takes responsibility. ask for a letter stating i have permission to do an elective, it's done incorrectly 3 times. is is that difficult to type a letter? i don't get it. i'm not perfect but when i'm asked to do something i try to do my best. doesn't seem to get reciprocated. i don't feel wronged but it sure gets damned frustrating. you can't fault a person for wanting things done the right way. i guess if that makes me rigid and inflexible, so be it. but that doesn't mean i'm uptight.

 

[person2004]

Two students fail an exam one Irish person and a Canadian (for arguments) sake , both get 48.5%. Both are annoyed. Both go in to see their papers. Both see their exam results and read their essays. Both know their essays are crap. Irish student accepts result, moves on laughs it off knows he has to go work harder. Canadian cannot believe the indignancy of someone to fail them. How can it be possible? Are you persecuting me - remember i'm canadian not american! You must be wrong. Not me could'nt be me.But the Irish are grand they don't pay fees at all they can afford to repeat but i can't.
Take responsibility mate and stop the crying over big bad Ireland and how she has mistreated you.

This argument is fair except for two things. If it's 7 of 10 Canadian students who've failed and 5 of 100 Irish students it may be valid but it's suspicious. The other issue is that the Irish student can fail, resit, etc. It sucks, it's a pain, but he can go on. It's fairly common to fail a course in Ireland. Failing a course in Canada is not common and can seriously hurt your career prospects for the long term. When he's applying for jobs back in Canada, the Canadian student's future employers may not understand that failing a course in Ireland isn't as big a deal as failing a course in Canada. This isn't to say that the Irish have to change their methods, but it explains why it's harder for the Canadian student to just laugh it off and why he may feel persecuted.