Ireland again...

[r3kapur]

Hi all!

It's been quiet around here. Just wanted to get some perspective from some of those in Ireland.

It's been a few months now. How are you enjoying it? What have you found about the process there, and the time it'll take to get back to North America? What about prospects in UK and the rest of the world? Right now I'm getting to the point where I might be willing to do a residency anywhere... if it means that I can do what I want to do with my career.

I'm just curious how your impressions might have changed now that you are already there? Applied to Trinity and UCD as well as Canadian schools. Basically, just want to get as much info. ahead of time just in case the scenario arises where I have to make a decision to leave Canada...

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[leorl]

Hi,

I've been in Ireland for awhile now... the time it takes to get back to NA? 5 years, whether you're a direct entrant (if you've got a science degree) or started in a new revised curriculum. Earning the medicine degree (BM BCh BAO) will take 5 years. Prospects really depend on where you do your residency...if you graduate from an Irish school, you can consider doing your residency in the UK, especially if you do your internship here or in northern ireland. It's a bit tricky to know if you're eligible, but it's not such a concern at the moment since the UK and Ireland need medical staff. However, should you go this route it may be harder to get back in the US, and you may have to repeat intership/residency.

Resources aren't as available or efficient here, which can be a quite frustrating. But that's when you say, "Oh, it's Ireland." The good point is that it makes you more resourceful in the way you handle situations although it might take a bit longer.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by leorl
Hi,

I've been in Ireland for awhile now... the time it takes to get back to NA? 5 years, whether you're a direct entrant (if you've got a science degree) or started in a new revised curriculum. Earning the medicine degree (BM BCh BAO) will take 5 years. Prospects really depend on where you do your residency...if you graduate from an Irish school, you can consider doing your residency in the UK, especially if you do your internship here or in northern ireland. It's a bit tricky to know if you're eligible, but it's not such a concern at the moment since the UK and Ireland need medical staff. However, should you go this route it may be harder to get back in the US, and you may have to repeat intership/residency.

Resources aren't as available or efficient here, which can be a quite frustrating. But that's when you say, "Oh, it's Ireland." The good point is that it makes you more resourceful in the way you handle situations although it might take a bit longer.

This OP is from Canada though and I'm assuming he wants to return there. If you do your internship in Ireland/UK you have an excellent chance of returning home (to Canada) forget about the US though. You will have to write the MCCEE/QQ1/QQ2 and relevant exams for your specialty....but there is also a new program in Ontario where if you have worked for 5 years in your area of practice they can get you licenced without any exams.

 

[r3kapur]

RSF,

Where do you find your info? I feel like I should start reading about this stuff on my own rather than continually asking questions of others.

Cheers.

 

[VTEC]

hey guys
i do know that getting back into canada would be easier if an individual did complete their post graduate training in ireland or the UK that is when you do complete a MRCP. correct me if im wrong redshifteffect. if your thinking of going to the US i would not waste time doing residency in ireland or UK because you would have to repeat it as it was said in the pervious post. but i did not know that ontario has a new program could you please post where you found this info thanks

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by r3kapur
RSF,

Where do you find your info? I feel like I should start reading about this stuff on my own rather than continually asking questions of others.

Cheers.

mainly forums like this or just do google searches. I've been overseas for about 2 years so i've had a lot of time to accumulate information.

 

[saphenous]

Hey r3kapur,
have pm'ed u. check ur pms.


Thanks.

 

[Amhergin]

There's a bit of nonsense going on here guys. I graduated last year from Trinity in Dublin and am in (depending what you read) the 3rd or 6th best program in the US for my field.

Seriously guys, it can be done. I can answer questions if people have some.
J

 

[VTEC]

hey amhergin

i have a few questions. what program are you in? are you US or canadain citizen? do marks from med school matter when you apply for residency or is based on usmle scores only? what other things are considered when applying for residency?

thanks

 

[Eire]

Hi-

I thought I would chime in with my two cents. I am in my last year in Ireland, I will not say which school because i want to keep my identity secret.

I am a US citizen and I have been going thru the residency ordeal. I have just signed a contract outside of the match for a slot as PGY1 in Emergency Medicine(it is a 1-3 format).

Anyway, from what I have gathered, your actual grades in Medical School don't matter much, sure they look for honors but in all honesty most of the Programs have no idea how to figure out what the grading scale here is like. They rely on your Step 1 scores heavily, and your Dean's letter as well as Step 2 if you have it. Outstanding electives and letters from the US are manditory esp if you are applying for a competitive specality. I have gathered this info from about 15 interviews.

As for coming back from Ireland to the US. The process sucks, there is a lot of discrimination, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You need to be head and shoulders above the other applicants if you want to stand out. As if that is not enough you will have much more debt than the average Us applicant , and that will only get worse as the dollar takes a dump and fees are raised disproprotionally for North Americans!

How is my Irish education, there are some places in the US that look favorably upon it. They are clustered on The East Coast, past that and you might as well be from a school in Mexico. California is very , very hard to get to! My thoughts are a little different and are based on my experiences in electives, you WILL be behind the US students, they are about a year or so ahead of us. Yes our clinical exam skills are better but, no one cares, from my experiences in the US clinical exam skills are not a concern,. order a CT it is easier is the philosophy! Therefore it will not really help. Our patient management skills are crap when compared to a final year US student. That will make for a steeper learning curve in your internship.

Would I do it again, possibly, but I would exhaust EVERY other possibility for an allopathic education in the US first. In Ireland, I do not feel you get value for your money, I disagree with many in the US that have compared Ireland to a third would country medically (a common theme in my interviews) but, the system is frustrating and the old boy network has no place in modern medicine. Hopefully that will change for those that follow.

Well, that is all I can think of now, post any questions here for me.

 

[Amhergin]

Originally posted by Eire
Hi-

Anyway, from what I have gathered, your actual grades in Medical School don't matter much, sure they look for honors but in all honesty most of the Programs have no idea how to figure out what the grading scale here is like. They rely on your Step 1 scores heavily, and your Dean's letter as well as some Step 2 if you have it. Outstanding electives and letters from the US are manditory esp if you are applying for a competitive specality. I have gathered this info from about 15 interviews.

I agree with this.

Our patient management skills are crap when compared to a final year US student. That will make for a steeper learning curve in your internship.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. When I first came back I could out-pimp anyone but I was utter crap at patient management. It just isn't a concern over there. I have friends there who's sole purpose now as an intern is to do scutwork. No management whatsoever. They learn that stuff over this year.

When I first came and did my AI my head was spinning for the first week. Worked out well afterwards but it was non-stop bleeding nose hard for the first bit.

And it's a new kind of hard. It's not textbook stuff. It's stuff that you have to learn. And you need to learn how to be very organized very quickly.

Would I do it again, probably but I would exhaust every other possibility in the US first for an allopathic education. I do not feel you get a lot of value for your money, I disagree with many in the US that have compared Ireland to a third would country medically (a common theme in my interviews) but, the system is frustrating and the old boy network has no place in modern medicine. Hopefully that will change for those that follow.

I'd probably do it again. You see much more of the world by going abroad for this and I think it's shortsighted to say that it isn't worth it.

I'll stop here - I'm a little bitter at the moment having come back from a hard 34 hours on. You could always go into another field? Only half-joking here today.

 

[muelli]

Hi,
I'm a German pre-dental planning to practise dentistry in Northern America in a few (let's say 10) years.
I am thinking about whether to make the German degree (5 years) + eventually a doctorate degree first before completing a course for international dentists in the US/Canada OR beginning a dentistry course in Ireland (cheap & easy to get in as an EU citizen) so that I'll have better chances to practise in Northern America lateron.

Any advices ????????????? Plus hints which Irish university to chose?

 

[lola]

amhergin and eire,
thanks for your informative posts! if you know of any other north american students in ireland who might be interested in posting, it would be helpful. i know i had a really hard time trying to find out information when i applied to the irish schools last year. atlantic bridge insisted that irish graduates got good residencies yet would never really answer my quesitons about trying to get a residency in california. all i had to go from was the list they gave out, which had hardly any california placements (if any?). i spoke with someone at ucsf in the family medicine residency program who basically laughed in my face when i asked her how hard it would be to get a residency if i went to an irish school. she told me that i'd be labeled a foreign medical graduate and would not even get looked at. that pretty much made up my mind to attend a u.s. school when i heard that. that's not to say people don't get good residencies, because i know some do, but atlantic bridge does not provide applicants with much information about the process of applying for residency and the difficulties we may face.
one question: do most irish students applying for residency in the states enter the match?

 

[r3kapur]

Hey.

I do appreciate all your comments! Although it would be great to hear from some Canadians (even though I would anticipate getting back into the US easier than canada... I'd probably run into issues with working VISAs when getting a residency in the states that US citizens would not).

However, it does seem that there are conflicting views from students. Some say that heading abroad is worth it... and others disagree. Some say they loved their experience... others not so much. I guess that'll always be the case, but it's hard to know where I'd fit into the debate if ever there.

So basically you recommend applying to as many schools in North America as possible before considering the Ireland route?

Cheers.

 

[leorl]

It is a hard decision, studying abroad. You really have to decide what you want to do. How important is doing exactly what you want or practicing in your state/country of residence to you? Of course, everyone wants a bit of job security, but if you are willing to be flexible or have no set plans at the moment then going abroad could be a good option.

My personal view is that if you have the drive and aren't really hung up on knowing exactly what you want in the future, going abroad is one of the greatest experiences. I did it during undergrad and loved it so much, got to know such amazing people and loved the system here, that I returned to Ireland for med school and didn't apply to any US schools. That might not be the best plan, but for my own life, I might be interested in practicing in Europe/UK one day, and if I go home, I'm not interested in practicing somewhere as restrictive as California. (If you definitely want to apply back to Cali, I wouldn't recommend being an FMG!) And it's harder for Canadians who want to return to Canada and aren't interested in practicing elsewhere - your provincial requirements pretty much don't let in foreign trained docs too easily.

You really have to sort out what you want to do. For me, going abroad was the right choice. I always wanted to live in Europe for a substantial amount of time, and couldn't really see myself being happy staying in the US. I want to return at some stage to practice, but I'm not choosy - I'm not interested only in a certain location or only in the top residencies. It's a tough decision.

 

[r3kapur]

Leorl,

THanks for your posts. You are always so positive!

See. I've always been one for adventure and I've always been independent. The idea of going abroad doesn't concern me. And really I don't care where I live as long as I have the means to support myself where I am. I guess the biggest thing is getting through it all... and seeing something that you really like and having a wall up against getting it because all of a sudden you are a FMG. Like me having the ability and having proved it... but still not being worthy.

The idea of going abroad right now sounds so exciting. But the fear of being regretful 5 years down the road when I have to find a job is a terrible feeling. Maybe it's just me...

From some of the posts, it seems like people have made it back to North America and realized that the systems differ quite a bit, and so they have a lot of catching up to do. That would scare me as well... just having people always undermine your abilities.

But alas... as always... I know it's a decision that only I can make (and frankly it's not like there's even a decision to be made here... the adcoms might hate me ).

Well, sorry for the pointless post. All I can say is keep the comments coming

Cheers.

 

[Glitterhunie]

Hi ya..
Im studying in UCG ..how are you finding it in Trinity..What year are you in?

 

[leorl]

r3kapur, not pointless at all! Yes, it's scary - knowing that there's a bit of catchup to do. But it has to do with slightly different systems, not with us being incompetent, not to do with us not having the ability to adjust. I know what I can handle, and feel confident that I'll be able to pick right up with my US-trained counterparts. Sure, it might take a little adjustment but I don't really have a fear of failing at it. And I like the possibility of being able to out-pimp people .

This is what I meant in previous posts when I said you really have to weigh the pros and cons of going abroad. To me, adventure, something new, living abroad and in Europe was much more important to me than having to do some adjusting back home.

 

[leorl]

Glitter, I'm 3rd med. Will expound more when I have more time !