Intl stdnt: Med School; Neuro Residency // A fairy tale?!

[Arkady]

.PLEASE READ.​

.A little bit of history:

Hi, I am an international student who shares a very keen interest in neuroscience and who would love to become a neurosurgeon one day. As you would've guessed every fairy tale has a villain and here's mine;-.

I come from a medical background, my father is pediatric surgeon, and my mother is a pediatric doctor. I went to college late aged 19 at Amhert College but then transferred in my sophomore year to "X"; École Polytechnique , France.

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Dilemma:

I would really love to attend Med school in the U.S, but as an international student who will not graduate from a U.S college I realize that my chances are virtually NULL. Academically, however, I fit the bill:

L' École Polytechnique is by far the most prestigious institution of higher education in France, and has hands down the best engineering school in Europe and arguably in the world. I'm in my 1st graduate year, 3rd at "X"; I am undertaking a double major in Physics & Neuroscience (all "X" have to double), I speak 7 languages and shall graduate in my 4th next year with a Masters degree in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics.

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Q&A:

I would like to inquire about my chances of making it into a prestigious Med school in the U.S.

Whether my chances would've been augmented if I had completed my undergraduate study in the U.S at Amhert College instead of abroad; my sister intends to follow the same track so it's a question of finding the safest route for the future.

Whether applying to an International Medical School is a viable alternative. And if attending Med school or an international school gives me a better shot at landing a Neurosurgical-Residency in the U.S of A.

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[Gozar]

have you completed the standard pre-med requirements? is english your first language? if not have you passed the toefl? are you a citizen of the us? have you taken the mcat?

there are a lot of questions that need to be answer before anyone can estimate what your chances are. in my medical school class there are over a dozen people who graduated from foreign undergraduate programs. there are a few hurdles that you need to overcome before you can come over here, but they are not insurmountable (probably much higher than you would expect). some of these people have incredible stories to tell, you just need to stand out and have a legitimate reason for wanting to attend medical school in the united states.

attending medical school in a foreign country is a significant disadvantage to applying to residency in the united states. i work for an FMG (foreign medical graduate) neurosurgeon who bounced around between programs for a couple of years before finding a position. if you look at the outcome of FMGs in the match they do not do nearly as well and graduating medical students from the united states.

on a side note - i had an applied mathematics professor from your school teach me classical analysis while he was a visiting professor at my school. he was VERY different from my american professors.

 

[Arkady]

I appreciate your comments, but I think that you've missed some facts that I have already mentioned.

I have attended one of the finest Liberal Arts Colleges in the U.S, Amherst College (MA) which was ranked 1st among LACs for Academic reputation. I transferred in late into my sophomore year to "X".

English is not my 1st language, but I took it as such for my International Baccalaureate Diploma (IB). All my subjects were taught in french, but English was studied as a 1st language.

My natural sciences education would put a Stan, MIT, Caltech senior to shame. You don't get to choose your double major until your 3rd year, equivalent to Senior year in the U.S. At "X", you gain the equivalent of a liberal arts education in the natural science & economics instead of a preparation to gain a pre-professional degree.

I am not planning on attending Med school in a foreign country. As you already know, you need to do that right after your High school, but I was asking if International Medical School is a viable alternative, I heard some American students do go there. And if actually going to Med school in the U.S augments the chances of an international student (Like me) of landing a residency there.

Could you please re-read my initial post more carefully and try to answer my 3 questions accordingly.

PS: How was he very different? Just curious.

 

[tncekm]

I recently shadowed a British neurosurgeon, specializing in brain and spinal, who started off with his Ph.D (Oxford?) in Organic Chemistry and decided to go to medical school in the US after a short career working for the pharmaceutical industry. Not only did he get into medical school in the US, he did it in his thirties and went to Yale.

If you're as qualified as you say you are, can nail the MCAT, and if you can put together an interview that wouldn't be seen as offensive to Americans (i.e. be courteous, polite, and have humility--that means relax with the "I'm awesome and I kick *****" attitude) I'm sure you would manage. However, you may have to take some units at an accredited US college.

As far as your sister goes, she's clearly more likely to get accepted to a US medical school if she attends a US college.

Lastly, you definitely want to attend a US Med School if you want to increase your odds of getting into a competitive residency.

P.S. Just a suggestion: You asked the Gozar to re-read and address your questions. You may avoid that confusion in the future if you edit your post and pose your quasi-statement-questions as explicit questions. Gozar also made good points you should consider.

Note: I'm only a pre-med, but I don't think your questions require any more.

 

[Arkady]

I recently shadowed a British neurosurgeon, specializing in brain and spinal, who started off with his Ph.D (Oxford?) in Organic Chemistry and decided to go to medical school in the US after a short career working for the pharmaceutical industry. Not only did he get into medical school in the US, he did it in his thirties and went to Yale.

If you're as qualified as you say you are, can nail the MCAT, and if you can put together an interview that wouldn't be seen as offensive to Americans (i.e. be courteous, polite, and have humility--that means relax with the "I'm awesome and I kick *****" attitude) I'm sure you would manage. However, you may have to take some units at an accredited US college.

As far as your sister goes, she's clearly more likely to get accepted to a US medical school if she attends a US college.

Lastly, you definitely want to attend a US Med School if you want to increase your odds of getting into a competitive residency.

P.S. Just a suggestion: You asked the Gozar to re-read and address your questions. You may avoid that confusion in the future if you edit your post and pose your quasi-statement-questions as explicit questions. Gozar also made good points you should consider.

Note: I'm only a pre-med, but I don't think your questions require any more.

I wasn't really boasting about my education, just putting it into perspective as I realize not many people in this forum have attended or know about the French higher educational system.

I've been already at an accredited Liberal Arts College in the U.S for 2 years so why would I need to take extra units given that I already posses a strong foundation in the natural sciences, and a masters degree by the time I graduate next year.

Allow me to insist, but since my sister is going to be considered a foreign student either way when applying for Med School; what advantage would she gain from attending a U.S college, given that she's more likely to receive a more comprehensive and exhaustive education in one of the French Grande Ecole? Wouldn't it be better for her by following the same track I followed, that is, Fresh and Soph years in the U.S, then attend a Grande Ecole, then Med School?

PS: I really appreciated Gozar's post, I just felt that I needed more insight into the matter so I clung to him for more info. I'm still curious about what he has to say about my Poly teacher

 

[Gozar]

this is really not the place to discuss how much better the french system is than the american system. just because "X" has been ranked well internationally does NOT mean that it will put other institutions in the states to shame. coming over to the states with that kind of attitude will certainly not result in success when applying to medical school. remember, you are trying to come HERE for an education. saying - "I want to come to the states, but really your system is filth compared to the superlative French schools" is difficult to reconcile for anyone.

my prof was a guy named benamou for an analysis class. the class is pretty crap no matter who you take it from. he basically stood up and read rudin to us for an hour and then gave us homework. not very fun. you were considered to be doing well if you were getting ~40% on exams. i got the sense that in france it is way more sink or swim. because a lot more people get into the schools in the first place significantly more weeding out has to take place.

 

[Arkady]

I really did not intend to be condescending in my remarks towards the American system, maybe I was a little too proud of my alma mater; "Indeed, getting into Harvard, which accepted 9 percent of its applicants last year, is a breeze compared with getting into the École Polytechnique" and that's the NYT own statement not me

More insight shall be greatly appreciated...

PS: Would I have been really better off (Med School acceptance wise) to stay in the U.S as tncekm mentioned above, instead of opting for what I felt would be the most rewarding experience intellectually and academically wise, which unfortunately was to be found a couple of thousand miles east of Massachusetts?

 

[tncekm]

I wasn't really boasting about my education, just putting it into perspective as I realize not many people in this forum have attended or know about the French higher educational system.

Well, that's fine and I attribute it to being a cultural difference, honestly. Americans prefer a bit more modesty than the French, but not so much as the Japanese I.e. Saying "I went to a top French University so I feel my education will meet the requirements of US standards" would have worked just fine and wouldn't have been considered boastful.

Allow me to insist, but since my sister is going to be considered a foreign student either way when applying for Med School; what advantage would she gain from attending a U.S college, given that she's more likely to receive a more comprehensive and exhaustive education in one of the French Grande Ecole? Wouldn't it be better for her by following the same track I followed, that is, Fresh and Soph years in the U.S, then attend a Grande Ecole, then Med School?

First, she (and you) can apply for permanent residency. Being a permanent resident will, from what I understand, put someone on the same level as a citizen as far as application to med school goes. Supposedly it takes about a year to a year and a half to become a permanent resident. Some schools will allow direct matriculation if you can provide proof that you can pay for the schooling and you may have to provide proof of exceptional performance from your institution.

I really did not intend to be condescending in my remarks towards the American system, maybe I was a little too proud of my alma mater; "Indeed, getting into Harvard, which accepted 9 percent of its applicants last year, is a breeze compared with getting into the École Polytechnique" and that's the NYT own statement not me

Harvard costs like $45k/yr in tuition to attend. That's a huge sieve right there. School in the states isn't free, so you can't assume the admission percentage is representative of the level of education.

Plus, no offense, but most Americans see french people as having this irrational and excessive "french pride" in all things french. We're the best at X, we're the best at Y, we're the best at Z, etc". And, the only place (of the many I searched) I saw that ranked Ecole Polytechnique super high in the world rankings is Wikipedia. Otherwise its Yale, Harvard, Cabridge, Oxford, Stanford, MIT, CalTech etc in some varying order.

edit: I just found this recent ranking: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/hybrid.asp?typeCode=243

PS: Would I have been really better off (Med School acceptance wise) to stay in the U.S as tncekm mentioned above, instead of opting for what I felt would be the most rewarding experience intellectually and academically wise, which unfortunately was to be found a couple of thousand miles east of Massachusetts?

I guess I don't need to repeat myself on this one.



BTW, Google has tons of answers on this one. Try Google.com (US) and see what you find... there's lots of stuff.

 

[H_Caulfield]

I really did not intend to be condescending in my remarks towards the American system, maybe I was a little too proud of my alma mater; "Indeed, getting into Harvard, which accepted 9 percent of its applicants last year, is a breeze compared with getting into the École Polytechnique" and that's the NYT own statement not me

More insight shall be greatly appreciated...

PS: Would I have been really better off (Med School acceptance wise) to stay in the U.S as tncekm mentioned above, instead of opting for what I felt would be the most rewarding experience intellectually and academically wise, which unfortunately was to be found a couple of thousand miles east of Massachusetts?

I understand that English isn't your first language, but you write very well and ought to be able to recognize that you've just apologized for being condescending, only to follow it immediately with a quote about Harvard being much more difficult to get into than E-coli whositwhatsit. You're coming off as very pretentious, and it's difficult to want to help you. People on this board aren't expected, obligated, or paid to answer your questions.

In Harvard's defense, I think it's widely regarded around the world as a phenomenal school, whereas you'd be hard pressed to find people here familiar with the schools you've attended (regardless of how difficult they may be to get into).

My advice: If you want to do your training in America, stop fixating on your superb training elsewhere and let the admissions committees know how privileged you'd feel to be accepted here.

 

[latinfridley]

I really did not intend to be condescending in my remarks towards the American system, maybe I was a little too proud of my alma mater; "Indeed, getting into Harvard, which accepted 9 percent of its applicants last year, is a breeze compared with getting into the École Polytechnique" and that's the NYT own statement not me

More insight shall be greatly appreciated...

PS: Would I have been really better off (Med School acceptance wise) to stay in the U.S as tncekm mentioned above, instead of opting for what I felt would be the most rewarding experience intellectually and academically wise, which unfortunately was to be found a couple of thousand miles east of Massachusetts?

There is an easy answer to your question:
Attending medical school in the U.S. is far advantageous to attending med school abroad in terms of attaining a U.S. residency position in a competitive field such as neurosurgery.

 

[Arkady]

There is an easy answer to your question:
Attending medical school in the U.S. is far advantageous to attending med school abroad in terms of attaining a U.S. residency position in a competitive field such as neurosurgery.

Well I do realize that actually, my question was in retrospect would it 've been better to stay at the U.S and complete my undergrad degree at Amherst College, or transfer as I did, in my sophomore year to Ecole Polytechnique, France and gain better qualifications. In either cases the end result is to apply to Med School.

I would appreciate if you can take a look at my story posted above and maybe provide me more helpful guidance...

 

[H_Caulfield]

Well I do realize that actually, my question was in retrospect would it 've been better to stay at the U.S and complete my undergrad degree at Amherst College, or transfer in as I did, in my sophomore year to Ecole Polytechnique, France and gain better qualifications. In either cases the end result is to apply to Med School.

I would appreciate if you can take a look at my story posted above and maybe provide me more helpful guidance...

You would be best completing your undergraduate degree here, because people here aren't impressed with this French school you keep talking about. We've never heard of it before.

 

[tncekm]

You would be best completing your undergraduate degree here, because people here aren't impressed with this French school you keep talking about. We've never heard of it before.

Just look at the rankings I posted... It's in the top 100 but way lower than all of the schools he belittled.

And, I don't know what else he wants us to say. His question has been answered.

 

[Arkady]

My quote was from the New York Times and was meant to highlight my "excessive" French pride not to be offensive or degrading in any way. Hope I corrected the misunderstanding.

tncekm, can you give me more information about the permanent residency. Can I gain such status if I am accepted into Med School, and is it even possible to attain such status as an undergraduate (for my sis).

As for the rankings...I will not argue about the methodology, but I will just point out to the fact that "X" is composed of only 2000 students, and although we are considered graduate students, anyone who is accepted is considered a graduate student. I would've been considered a Senior by now if I had stayed at Amherst 2 years ago, so you see if this institution was in the U.S it would've been considered a Liberal Arts College. Now the fact that a small engineering institution like mine, composed of undergrads could be plassed as high as 34 in the world is an argument in my favor not against.

Speaking of American pride, I don't think it's any different. Take the Super Bowl, winner are declared... World Champions. The last time I checked, the rest of the world played Rugby not "American" Football. It's not really hard to be a World Champion if the rest of the world doesn't even know the rules of the game. On that note, I hope that I've amended my bridges with the members of this forum.

 

[tncekm]

My quote was from the New York Times and was meant to highlight my "excessive" French pride not to be offensive or degrading in any way. Hope I corrected the misunderstanding.

Understood, no big deal. Like I said, despite your fluency in English its easy for culture to influence communication and create misunderstandings.

tncekm, can you give me more information about the permanent residency. Can I gain such status if I am accepted into Med School, and is it even possible to attain such status as an undergraduate (for my sis).

Permanent residency is more frequently referred to as getting a "green card". I think anybody can apply at any time. I doubt with your academic background you'd be denied, and your sister would probably be eligible, too. But, these are questions you need to bring to the US officials in charge of giving out permanent residence--do a Google search for that info and I'm sure you'll find it.

As far as medical school goes, you would probably want to gain permanent resident status prior to applying to medical schools.

As for the rankings...I will not argue about the methodology, but I will just point out to the fact that "X" is composed of only 2000 students, and although we are considered graduate students, anyone who is accepted is considered a graduate student. I would've been considered a Senior by now if I had stayed at Amherst 2 years ago, so you see if this institution was in the U.S it would've been considered a Liberal Arts College. Now the fact that a small engineering institution like mine, composed of undergrads could be plassed as high as 34 in the world is an argument in my favor not against.

Nobody said it wasn't a good school. We were just pointed that Harvard, Yale, etc don't play second fiddle to it.

Speaking of American pride, I don't think it's any different. Take the Super Bowl, winner are declared... World Champions. The last time I checked, the rest of the world played Rugby not "American" Football. It's not really hard to be a World Champion if the rest of the world doesn't even know the rules of the game.

I agree, its a little strange that American Football is pretty much only played in America and people sometimes refer to Superbowl Champions as World Champions. However, most of the time the American press and the American people actually refer to the NFL Champions as "Super Bowl Champions", not "World Champions"

On that note, I hope that I've amended my bridges with the members of this forum.

No problems here

 

[Arkady]

So to gain permanent residency you don't actually need to be residing in the U.S by the time you apply?

Well in the last SB one of Giants players said he was delighted to be world champion. But I forgive him, he was crying at the time. Believe it or not unlike the rest of the world, I do understand some of the rules of American football as I play rugby. But rest assured I'm not going to start bashing about which is the toughest sport

Maybe I felt I had to emphasis my credentials because I just felt it was just I mean, you get to do 2 majors in less than one year and with the shackle of an internship to boot, & the best part is there is no escape. No easy major out there in the horizon, it's either engineering or natural science

 

[tncekm]

So to gain permanent residency you don't actually need to be residing in the U.S by the time you apply?

I don't think so... but, you need to contact the appropriate US department (I.C.E. I think) to know for sure and to find out the details.

Well in the last SB one of Giants players said he was delighted to be world champion. But I forgive him, he was crying at the time. Believe it or not unlike the rest of the world, I do understand some of the rules of American football as I play rugby. But rest assured I'm not going to start bashing about which is the toughest sport

Meh, he's a football player. I don't know about Rugby players, but I know American Football players aren't the brightest bunch

Maybe I felt I had to emphasis my credentials because I just felt it was just I mean, you get to do 2 majors in less than one year and with the shackle of an internship to boot, & the best part is there is no escape. No easy major out there in the horizon, it's either engineering or natural science

I'm sure it was rough, and I'm sure that can only benefit you in your future. Its not necessarily that you emphasized it, its "how". And the "how" was probably only offensive to some because of the culture and language barriers between us. No big deal.

 

[Kiroro]

My quote was from the New York Times and was meant to highlight my "excessive" French pride not to be offensive or degrading in any way. Hope I corrected the misunderstanding.

tncekm, can you give me more information about the permanent residency. Can I gain such status if I am accepted into Med School, and is it even possible to attain such status as an undergraduate (for my sis).

As for the rankings...I will not argue about the methodology, but I will just point out to the fact that "X" is composed of only 2000 students, and although we are considered graduate students, anyone who is accepted is considered a graduate student. I would've been considered a Senior by now if I had stayed at Amherst 2 years ago, so you see if this institution was in the U.S it would've been considered a Liberal Arts College. Now the fact that a small engineering institution like mine, composed of undergrads could be plassed as high as 34 in the world is an argument in my favor not against.

Speaking of American pride, I don't think it's any different. Take the Super Bowl, winner are declared... World Champions. The last time I checked, the rest of the world played Rugby not "American" Football. It's not really hard to be a World Champion if the rest of the world doesn't even know the rules of the game. On that note, I hope that I've amended my bridges with the members of this forum.

Arkady,

Your current problem is A. get a permanent residency here or B. make sure your parents have 4 years of med school cost (about $45,000*4) + living cost in whatever city you are going saved up in the bank as cash and to be able to document it

for A. it cannot be done unless you marry a US citizen or work at a US company who's willing to sponsor you a worker's visa and then permanent residency....basically, you cannot get permanent residency

This leaves you only choice B. When you are international grad + not US citizen or permanent resident, it makes it super hard to get into med school + you won't be able to get any loans, hence the proof of your parents having all the money ready in the bank. But I will definitely start with getting around 34+ on MCAT to start with. You should probably post more questions after that

 

[Arkady]

Arkady,

Your current problem is A. get a permanent residency here or B. make sure your parents have 4 years of med school cost (about $45,000*4) + living cost in whatever city you are going saved up in the bank as cash and to be able to document it

for A. it cannot be done unless you marry a US citizen or work at a US company who's willing to sponsor you a worker's visa and then permanent residency....basically, you cannot get permanent residency

This leaves you only choice B. When you are international grad + not US citizen or permanent resident, it makes it super hard to get into med school + you won't be able to get any loans, hence the proof of your parents having all the money ready in the bank. But I will definitely start with getting around 34+ on MCAT to start with. You should probably post more questions after that

Thankfully I'm well enough financially to support myself if I ever attend Med school. I understand that it is always better to earn a degree from the country in which you intend to pursue your study. But since it finally ends up to how well you did on your MCAT + your academic qualifications; and given that I had already spent my Freshman and Sophomore years in the U. S and shall be considered a foreign student either way; Does it makes that much of a difference.

With that to consider, I think it makes it a lot more relevant to ask the question: Should my sister follow the same path that I went into, or rather finish her 4-5 years in the U.S? knowing that she's "likely" to be more qualified academically if she goes to "X", but would end up with a U.S degree if she chooses not to emulate me. Which option to chose?

 

[Gozar]

if you want to receive an american medical education you should stay in america. regardless of whether or not you will be more "qualified academically". any top US science and engineering school is equivalent to "X" - if she wants to do engineering tell her to apply to mit/caltech/stanford/ut:austin/rice/cornell. each of those schools has an engineering department ranked internationally as the best or close to it. plus she will be near or at a school with an attached medical school and can apply there.

for you - take the mcat. apply to us schools. hope for the best. if you want to start med school in the next few years thenyou need to basically give up on getting citizenship before you get in. i work for a neurosurgeon that immigrated and then completed his residency in the states, but only a few weeks ago went to his citizenship ceremony. many of my international friends have been working on citizenship applications for years. one of them from india spent eight years here before she and her family became citizens. another friend from colombia had been living here from second grade up through our junior year of college. reasonably, you will be applying under a visa. just dominate the mcat and anything could happen.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Arkady, is your dad a pediatric surgeon in the States? He doesn't happen to be at my institution, is he?

To be frank, the French Grandes Ecoles do not carry the same international weight as the US and British institutions because the francophone world does not have the same prominence it once enjoyed. No doubt the training is difficult (and it is relative: in the US, for example, we have 5 times the population of France, and all high school students are more or less prepared for and expected to enter university, so the applicant pool for the top universities is enormous-- to be accepted is a huge accomplishment, quite different from the European system of applying to specific degree programs where your competition is much smaller). But I guarantee you-- just accept this as fact, no arguing-- I guarantee you that no person on a medical school admissions committee will have heard of the Ecole Polytechnique, nor will they find it impressive. Sorry.

For that reason, your sister is best advised to earn a degree from an American undergraduate school. The reason is that those institutions are known entities-- admissions committees know their reputations, their difficulty, and can gauge how 'good' a student is coming out of one. Of all the international medical students in my class, all but one trained in the US-- and that one went to a UK university. A French-Swedish girl who went to Columbia, a Jordanian guy went to Brown, a few Taiwanese and Korean students went to various Ivies. And the other side of the coin is that an international student graduating from a US school has obviously proven they understand the American educational system, and culture, and can thrive in it. An international student from an international university is simply an Unknown (un inconnu).

But what's done is done. You're at the Ecole Polytechnique and want to come here. The best thing you can do, after you graduate in engineering, is apply for an American post-bac to earn your biological science credits, presuming you don't already have them. Otherwise, try to move here and prove you have connection with the country-- work here, volunteer clinically, conduct medical research, etc.

As others noted, in order to get a Green Card you have to go down one of three paths: 1) marry a citizen, stay married, and then apply; 2) have an employer sponsor you as having "vital skills," stay here, and apply; or 3) win the famous Green Card Lottery.

However, you do *not* need a green card, nor do you need to be a permanent resident, to study in an American university. Do whatever you needed to do re: immigration to study at Amherst and you'll be fine.

 

[Arkady]

D'accord, I guess I have learned everything I needed to know thanks to you guys.

I loath stereotypes, and never really thought much of them really. But sacrebleu, is America so oblivious that even highly educated Americans entrenched in the realm of academia would consider an Intl student from an Intl University as an inconnu Reciprocally I'l admit that not too many people outside the U.S have heard about some of the great LAC's you have there (Williams, Pomona, Bowdoin, Amherst, Middlebury...) - which only a handful of Ivy's (Dart, Princ) can match in terms of undergrad educ - but it's still really shocking.

Neverthless, I understand that reputation is not everything (Right??!), it's first and foremost your academics that are the deciding factor and since I had spent 2 years in the U.S I could explain why I left and where, and hopefully make my hybrid education stand out.

PS: My father does not work in the U.S, he was a visiting proffessor at Columbia, but unfortunatly won't happen to be at your institution.
-------------------

On a side note, I don't think that "X"'s really are des inconnus, at least when it comes to the paycheck; we'ere not that far behind from the highest paid in the U.S. 72 quids 1st year for MIT, 70 for us; and that's a tall order considering that even football (soccer) players in France are paid a lot less than other parts in Europe and the World.

BlondeDocteur, Gozar, tncekm I realize that the likes of Harv, Stand, MIT are wonderful institutions but the reason I went to a LAC and then "X" was mainly because of their undergrad focus. It's really tough in any of these places, but I would dare say that at "X" it's not only intellectually but physically tough as well.

Entrance is similar to Med School, you enter an exam of competence (written & oral), interviews, recom letters...there's only 500 places each year (400 French, 100 Intl). If you're French you're invited to spend 8 months in the Alpes, but really the intl student's don't have much to envy; it's military training It was Napoleon who gave it it's current motto and campus, you see. Then 2 1/2 months of core subjects (mostly natural science and economics), you get 40 days of vacation for your effort and off to the 2nd year.

2nd year; 6 subjects to study extensively from 8, all the while doing 6 hours a week of a sport you choose (for 2 years) and 2 foreign languages (2 years) + internship.

3rd year: finish a double major in 6 months, while doing your 6 hours a week of sports and studying your 2 foreign languages.

The fact that a small institute of 2000 undergrads has been ranked in the top 20-40 research institues in the world is just a testament to our worth. We're not considered grad students for nothing.

 

[H_Caulfield]

D'accord, I guess I have learned everything I needed to know thanks to you guys.

I loath stereotypes, and never really thought much of them really. But sacrebleu, is America so oblivious that even highly educated Americans entrenched in the realm of academia would consider an Intl student from an Intl University as an inconnu Reciprocally I'l admit that not too many people outside the U.S have heard about some of the great LAC's you have there (Williams, Pomona, Bowdoin, Amherst, Middlebury...) - which only a handful of Ivy's (Dart, Princ) can match in terms of undergrad educ - but it's still really shocking.

Neverthless, I understand that reputation is not everything (Right??!), it's first and foremost your academics that are the deciding factor and since I had spent 2 years in the U.S I could explain why I left and where, and hopefully make my hybrid education stand out.

PS: My father does not work in the U.S, he was a visiting proffessor at Columbia, but unfortunatly won't happen to be at your institution.
-------------------

On a side note, I don't think that "X"'s really are des inconnus, at least when it comes to the paycheck; we'ere not that far behind from the highest paid in the U.S. 72 quids 1st year for MIT, 70 for us; and that's a tall order considering that even football (soccer) players in France are paid a lot less than other parts in Europe and the World.

BlondeDocteur, Gozar, tncekm I realize that the likes of Harv, Stand, MIT are wonderful institutions but the reason I went to a LAC and then "X" was mainly because of their undergrad focus. It's really tough in any of these places, but I would dare say that at "X" it's not only intellectually but physically tough as well.

Entrance is similar to Med School, you enter an exam of competence (written & oral), interviews, recom letters...there's only 500 places each year (400 French, 100 Intl). If you're French you're invited to spend 8 months in the Alpes, but really the intl student's don't have much to envy; it's military training It was Napoleon who gave it it's current motto and campus, you see. Then 2 1/2 months of core subjects (mostly natural science and economics), you get 40 days of vacation for your effort and off to the 2nd year.

2nd year; 6 subjects to study extensively from 8, all the while doing 6 hours a week of a sport you choose (for 2 years) and 2 foreign languages (2 years) + internship.

3rd year: finish a double major in 6 months, while doing your 6 hours a week of sports and studying your 2 foreign languages.

The fact that a small institute of 2000 undergrads has been ranked in the top 20-40 research institues in the world is just a testament to our worth. We're not considered grad students for nothing.

Well then, your first valuable lesson in the U.S: nobody likes a pretentious braggart who responds to honest, helpful statements with nothing but stories of walking uphill in the snow with his enormous brain. Again, people here, even in academia, aren't familiar with your school....and if you try and perform some variety of what you're displaying here at your interviews, they'll probably ask you to please leave the campus.

Coming to America from France with an attitude of prissy, snide superiority, especially in the time of "freedom fries," will not work in your favor. I do realize that you're making fair attempts at softening your boasting with SDN smilies, but this is rather transparent...

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Arkady, by "my institution" I meant Columbia. I knew, and worked with a bit, and invited to speak, a French pediatric surgeon whose family was still in Paris, and wondered if it might be your father.

Please read what I said: no one is dissing the Ecole Polytechnique. No one is saying "it isn't so" when you describe the difficulty of training. What we are saying, however, is that you can't expect American admissions committees in medicine to be conversant with the reputation of international schools of engineering. Accept it and move on.

And, as the others have pointed out, spending lots of time building up the reputation of your school is going to come across as very off-putting, either on paper or in an interview.

 

[Arkady]

Arkady, by "my institution" I meant Columbia. I knew, and worked with a bit, and invited to speak, a French pediatric surgeon whose family was still in Paris, and wondered if it might be your father.

Please read what I said: no one is dissing the Ecole Polytechnique. No one is saying "it isn't so" when you describe the difficulty of training. What we are saying, however, is that you can't expect American admissions committees in medicine to be conversant with the reputation of international schools of engineering. Accept it and move on.

And, as the others have pointed out, spending lots of time building up the reputation of your school is going to come across as very off-putting, either on paper or in an interview.

I think the first part of my last post was what I truly meant to say. I thanked you all for your valuable info, tried to single out U.S LAC's which I felt are undermined in the in the States, not to mention virtually unknown abroad and hoped that my hybrid education in the U.S/France could stand out and compensate for the fact that I did not finish my degree at Amherst.

In retrospect - based on the reactions of the repliers - I came to regret the 2nd part of my post. I only singled "X" out for being an undergraduate institute that can hold it's own against the big guns at the graduate level, and for being not just academically tough (like the many in the U.S) but also physically as well. But put yourself in my shoes, It would be a real shame to see your years of hard work going down the drain like that and actually turning into a detrimental factor against you on top of the already disadvantageous situation of being an Intl student.

PS: That must be a huge coincidence, same institute, same nationality, same profession, same speciality. Even in a pre-selected echantillion, mathematically that's just close to nill on a probabilistic scale so I doubt if it would be the same person. Could it be Vincent E. Ljunberg, Karonlinska Institutet; Paris V.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

No, it was this guy:
http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/facdb/profile_list.asp?uni=dj2107&DepAffil=Surgery

 

[Scottish Chap]

Arkady, is your dad a pediatric surgeon in the States? He doesn't happen to be at my institution, is he?

To be frank, the French Grandes Ecoles do not carry the same international weight as the US and British institutions because the francophone world does not have the same prominence it once enjoyed. No doubt the training is difficult (and it is relative: in the US, for example, we have 5 times the population of France, and all high school students are more or less prepared for and expected to enter university, so the applicant pool for the top universities is enormous-- to be accepted is a huge accomplishment, quite different from the European system of applying to specific degree programs where your competition is much smaller). But I guarantee you-- just accept this as fact, no arguing-- I guarantee you that no person on a medical school admissions committee will have heard of the Ecole Polytechnique, nor will they find it impressive. Sorry.

For that reason, your sister is best advised to earn a degree from an American undergraduate school. The reason is that those institutions are known entities-- admissions committees know their reputations, their difficulty, and can gauge how 'good' a student is coming out of one. Of all the international medical students in my class, all but one trained in the US-- and that one went to a UK university. A French-Swedish girl who went to Columbia, a Jordanian guy went to Brown, a few Taiwanese and Korean students went to various Ivies. And the other side of the coin is that an international student graduating from a US school has obviously proven they understand the American educational system, and culture, and can thrive in it. An international student from an international university is simply an Unknown (un inconnu).

But what's done is done. You're at the Ecole Polytechnique and want to come here. The best thing you can do, after you graduate in engineering, is apply for an American post-bac to earn your biological science credits, presuming you don't already have them. Otherwise, try to move here and prove you have connection with the country-- work here, volunteer clinically, conduct medical research, etc.

As others noted, in order to get a Green Card you have to go down one of three paths: 1) marry a citizen, stay married, and then apply; 2) have an employer sponsor you as having "vital skills," stay here, and apply; or 3) win the famous Green Card Lottery.

However, you do *not* need a green card, nor do you need to be a permanent resident, to study in an American university. Do whatever you needed to do re: immigration to study at Amherst and you'll be fine.

This is probably the best post I have ever read that clearly states the issues involved in *attempting* to apply to a U.S. medical school with undergraduate credentials earned overseas. There is always a mixture of anger and elitism from both sides when this issue arises.

I applied in 2004 with a British undergraduate degree from one of the nation's top institutions mentioned here. Nobody cared. I never took it personally, because I understood that this is the way the game is played. I even had two U.S. postgraduate degrees. Nobody cared about that either. They want a U.S. or Canadian undergraduate degree so that they can failry compare you to local applicants. U.S. medical schools see so many impressive applicants who trained in the U.S. as undergraduates that they simply don't need to look at anyone trained overseas.

Bottom line: winning a place in a U.S. medical school is very challenging. Add on top of that foreign credentials and the lack of U.S. citizenship or PR status, and it becomes near impossible. The best you can do is try to figure out which schools will let you away with a little less (some will accept as little as 60 credits stateside + the MCAT if you have your foreign degree evaluated and 'translated' to a U.S. equivalent by a professional agency).

The good news is that once you gain admission and apply for residency positions in the U.S. (I'm presently doing that), all of those schools that wouldn't look at you as an unusual medical school applicant will now interview you as a potential resident. Maybe it's because you now look more American.....

Good luck.

 

[Myostatin]

I think most Americans with a background in physical sciences / mathematics, know and respect the École Polytechnique, given the extremely sucessful scientists of the 1800s who were trained/based there, i.e. Poincare, Carnot, Poisson... the list goes on... but to claim that the Ecole puts Harvard/MIT/Caltech to shame would be plain incorrect. Your argument that a small institute is listed at all in the world ranking of univesities is partially valid, but note that Caltech is even smaller than the Ecole and yet is near the top of that list. Leaving aside the admissions process, how many of your classmates were mathematics or physics olympiad competitors or gold medalists... some no doubt, but probably fewer than you'd find at the above named institutions, which recruit such talent from the US as well as all over Europe and Asia.

In any case, if the rigor of the Ecole is as you describe you should have no problem managing a 40+ on the MCAT, which should make it doable to get into a US med school, even as a foreign grad.