Industry fellowships

[PNNPharma]

As the industry fellowship application season is around the corner, I wanted to create this thread as a way to answers questions applicants (or those generally interested in industry) may have as they navigate the process. I have been in the industry for a little over 5 years now and had completed a fellowship myself. The thread by @IndustryPharmD was tremendously helpful to me and I am hoping to pass it forward with this thread.

So please go ahead with any questions! And I highly recommend IndustryPharmD's old thread as good reading if you have not seen it: Pharmaceutical Industry 101

Thanks and best of luck to the candidates this year!

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[deleted1017785]

I graduated this year with my PharmD, currently working as a pharmacist in retail pharmacy. I am very interested in pursuing pharmaceutical fellowship. However, I do not have a lot of leadership experiences, pharma internship, or rotation experience. My school did not offer any industry APPE rotation. I know that my chances of getting a fellowship is probably around 0% but I still want to enter pharma. What do I need to do now? Should I even apply for a fellowship? I am constantly applying for 'medical information' roles to get into industry as well but no luck yet. What do you suggest? Are there any fellowships that don't interview at Mid-year? Please let me know. Thanks!

 

[PNNPharma]

I graduated this year with my PharmD, currently working as a pharmacist in retail pharmacy. I am very interested in pursuing pharmaceutical fellowship. However, I do not have a lot of leadership experiences, pharma internship, or rotation experience. My school did not offer any industry APPE rotation. I know that my chances of getting a fellowship is probably around 0% but I still want to enter pharma. What do I need to do now? Should I even apply for a fellowship? I am constantly applying for 'medical information' roles to get into industry as well but no luck yet. What do you suggest? Are there any fellowships that don't interview at Mid-year? Please let me know. Thanks!

I would not say your chances are 0%. I think a lot of it comes down to learning about the functional area as much as possible and tailoring your resume/CV experiences to it.

For med info, learn about things like standard response letters, how big pharma med info usually operates (outsourcing the day-to-day call center function and supporting those call centers with guidance, being the escalation center, etc.), other tasks a med info group may perform depending on the company (eg slide deck creation or review, AMCP dossier creation or review, etc.) - looking at job listings for entry level med info positions can be a great source to familiarize yourself with common lingo that you can then use to try to learn more about, potentially get experiences around, and speak to during interviews.

The good thing about med info is there are tons of examples you have from your daily job in retail that you can speak to where you provide drug info to providers or patients - summarize some of the overarching examples in your description of your current position on your CV/resume and be sure to have several specific cases ready to speak to for interviews. You may also want to look into the DIA and the work they do- maybe even attend a meeting if you can or try to do a drug info-centric research project that you can submit as an abstract. In general, the PharmD is very well suited for jobs in med info, to the point where getting a position is very possible even without a fellowship (but going the fellowship route will certainly increase your chances)

 

[GradVantageRx]

How much opportunity is there within industry to "switch lanes" -- ie ending up in a job not on the same vertical as your fellowship focus?

 

[Argentium]

Ample opportunity if you position yourself right - I've been in a different function almost every year since I've joined industry

 

[zona2016]

For a PharmD student, what do you recommend to be competitive for fellowships after graduation?

 

[PNNPharma]

How much opportunity is there within industry to "switch lanes" -- ie ending up in a job not on the same vertical as your fellowship focus?

Yes, lots of opportunity to get new experiences, development opportunities, etc. that can help with transitioning to different areas. For fellows especially they are often encouraged to explore and I know of many who ended up taking first jobs outside their fellowship function.

For a PharmD student, what do you recommend to be competitive for fellowships after graduation?

First step would be to learn as much as you can about what opportunities exist and to figure out what area(s) you want to apply to. Once you have 1-3 in mind learn as much as you can about them and try to get relevant experiences (industry internships or APPEs are a plus but not make-or-break, you can often tie other experiences back to most functional areas). I suggest checking out the major fellowship program websites for more information on specific programs, etc. and to see when they have their informational webinars and other programs. Once you know what areas you are interested in, try to find specific professional organizations within the space as they often have good resources to learn more about the space and what is going on. Welcome - Rxference is a good website as far as high-level info on functional areas, etc. goes.

If you have specific questions about particular areas, etc. please feel free to ask and I can do my best to share my exp

 

[Hels2007]

How much opportunity is there within industry to "switch lanes" -- ie ending up in a job not on the same vertical as your fellowship focus?

Plenty, but more so on the medical side, which is seen as more natural for pharmacists. On the commercial side, you need specific skills which you do not typically acquire as a pharmacist unless you got them through your undergrad degree or work experience. It can still happen if the company believes in you, but generally within the same company. A new company will hire you for what you can do already, not for what you want to learn, unless you can convince them you can learn quickly because your prior experience is actually not that far out in the left field.

Something like move from commercial or medical, I have seen a lot. Something like move from medical to commercial, a couple of times. Moves into or out of a very specific area such as regulatory - I haven't personally met anyone like that, but I am sure it has happened.

 

[Hels2007]

For a PharmD student, what do you recommend to be competitive for fellowships after graduation?

1) Be proactive. Doesn't have to be with anything to do with industry - it's nice to be involved with industry organizations (if your school has a chapter) or do an industry rotation (if your school offers it) but it's kind of ho-hum and everyone does it and it really doesn't take much or tell me much about a candidate. Now, if you went out of the way to set up your own rotation, doing all the legwork - that's impressive. If you were an officer at an organization at school (or outside, there are other healthcare-related charities out there that encourage student involvement) - that's impressive. If you did something for your employer that went beyond doing your regular shifts, something that impacted their workflow or patient interactions in a meaningful way - that's impressive. I could go on and on. Basically, whenever someone is more than a cog in a machine, that's when everyone wants them on their team. Except the rare few who want an obedient little cog, but such managers aren't really the type to get involved with fellowships.
2) Basically, be a person other people want to be around and want to hear. Being comfortable talking about your accomplishments is a must. Being comfortable speaking to a roomful of people and able to hold their attention is very important too (later on). Ultimately, in a fellowship process most people you initially speak with will talk to you and get your CV at the same time. How you hold yourself during that initial conversation is more important than your CV. CVs come into play if there are more people who had a good first conversation than there are slots for the second one.
3) Learn to think like an adult. Not "this is what the assignment is, I do it and I get a good grade" but "why are they asking this, what do they really want/need to know/have done".
4) Get good grades. If someone can't even handle the bare minimum, how can you expect them to handle serious business? Doesn't have to be all As but I would question either the intelligence or the motivation or a straight-C student.

Ultimately, a fellowship is an entry-level training position, so it's not about whether you can do the job (assuming you have done OK in school, you can do it), it's about whether they want to work with you every day for a year or two, and whether they think they will be proud to have you represent them after your fellowship is over.

 

[Liter-a-Cola]

I recently attended PPS at mid year this December for Fellowship interviews however, I was not able to obtain a Fellowship position. What would be the best way to go about landing a career in the pharmaceutical industry without having completed a fellowship? I have received a lot of mixed responses about getting industry positions rite out of pharmacy school. Some have said it’s very easy if you have a PharmD and others have say it’s unlikely to happen without a fellowship or at least having an ample amount of experience under your belt. My area of interest is within the medical affairs/ medical information department.

 

[sunshao]

Would be difficult without a fellowship. Maybe an entry level? But then u are sacrificing pay.

 

[Hels2007]

What would be the best way to go about landing a career in the pharmaceutical industry without having completed a fellowship?

Start with an agency. They are more willing to hire people without work experience and train them... the pay is fairly low and many will squeeze everything they can out of you, but it will give you a start, and in a couple years you can move to an in-house position within pharma.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Start with an agency. They are more willing to hire people without work experience and train them... the pay is fairly low and many will squeeze everything they can out of you, but it will give you a start, and in a couple years you can move to an in-house position within pharma.

Just out of curiosity, do you know what most short-term agency positions tend to pay?

 

[Hels2007]

Just out of curiosity, do you know what most short-term agency positions tend to pay?

Short-term as in 3-4 month contracts? No idea. Annual salaries for entry-level positions that a pharmacist could realistically obtain would run $70-130K depending on qualifications, agency size, geography and the role itself. Probably there are some that are lower (though why would you take them?) and some that are higher (few and far between and probably harder to get), and most would probably be in the $80-90K range...

 

[Argentium]

No single size answer for this since salary depends on the position you are filling in for as a contractor - its relatively in line with what you're replacing.

e.g. contractor filling in for a manager/specialist can expect $90-$140k depending on how well you can negotiate, what you bring to the table, and whether you're doing this through an agency (they take a cut but pay for health insurance/401k/etc) or independently (all yours - but you pay for health insurance, etc.)

 

[Hels2007]

Just to clarify, when I said "agencies" I meant PR/med ed/ad/etc. not the "rent-an-employee" ones. Other than sales (where I don't think they will want to hire a pharmacist) and MSL (where they might, but competition will be stiff), where you are still employed by the agency but work on behalf of a client, all the independent contractor ones I have ever heard of want specific experience... no one wants a contractor they will have to train from scratch, there isn't time or opportunity for that, especially if there is geographic distance involved.

 

[Argentium]

Nope, happens a lot in medical affairs/information, PV, and scientific content. No experience needed beyond the PharmD. Just need to know the right people, be persistent, and be willing to take the risk that once your contract is up, you might not get renewed

 

[PNNPharma]

I recently attended PPS at mid year this December for Fellowship interviews however, I was not able to obtain a Fellowship position. What would be the best way to go about landing a career in the pharmaceutical industry without having completed a fellowship? I have received a lot of mixed responses about getting industry positions rite out of pharmacy school. Some have said it’s very easy if you have a PharmD and others have say it’s unlikely to happen without a fellowship or at least having an ample amount of experience under your belt. My area of interest is within the medical affairs/ medical information department.

You never know for sure, but generally I would say med info is more likely right out of school without fellowship and MSL roles maybe after a little work exp. Try connecting with recruiters (LinkedIn is great for this; use the search function!) or ask anyone in your network who may be able to connect you to opportunities - applying cold on websites should be the final resort after you exhaust these two. You may also want to consider going the agency route- medical communications agencies could be a good way of getting your foot in the door and gaining some tactical experience.

Edit: oops missed Hels and Argentium's responses before I replied; echoes much of the same

 

[PharmacyChariya]

As the industry fellowship application season is around the corner, I wanted to create this thread as a way to answers questions applicants (or those generally interested in industry) may have as they navigate the process. I have been in the industry for a little over 5 years now and had completed a fellowship myself. The thread by @IndustryPharmD was tremendously helpful to me and I am hoping to pass it forward with this thread.

So please go ahead with any questions! And I highly recommend IndustryPharmD's old thread as good reading if you have not seen it: Pharmaceutical Industry 101

Thanks and best of luck to the candidates this year!

Hi PNNPharma, thank you for offering advice. I was curious about two things. I'm interested in pursuing a career in the industry via a fellowship approach. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of details about all the fellowship options available, is there a list available where I can see what's out there (pharmaceutical company/associated university) to find out what's best for me. Also, I was curious if being dual-board certified (BCPS & BCACP) helps in making myself more competitive towards being accepted for a fellowship.

 

[Hels2007]

I was curious if being dual-board certified (BCPS & BCACP) helps in making myself more competitive towards being accepted for a fellowship.

That means you have been out of school for at least a couple years if you did residencies, and longer if you didn't. No one will take you for a fellowship, they are really intended for graduating pharmacy students. Even last year's grads face almost impossible odds (I personally don't know of anyone who got a fellowship who wasn't a current P4) and someone like you should be applying for jobs, not fellowships.

 

[PharmacyChariya]

That means you have been out of school for at least a couple years if you did residencies, and longer if you didn't. No one will take you for a fellowship, they are really intended for graduating pharmacy students. Even last year's grads face almost impossible odds (I personally don't know of anyone who got a fellowship who wasn't a current P4) and someone like you should be applying for jobs, not fellowships.

Although I believe you are speaking the truth from your personal experience. In my life I’ve learned that seldom are “always” and “never” the case. The reason I want to pursue an industry fellowship is because I don’t currently have industry experience, and I believe the advantage of a fellowship for a person in my position prior to stepping into this branch of Pharmacy can’t be understated. Nevertheless, I appreciate your response, thank you.

 

[wazoodog]

I was curious if being dual-board certified (BCPS & BCACP) helps in making myself more competitive towards being accepted for a fellowship.

I also considered pursuing a fellowship after already being out of pharmacy school for a year or 2 as a practicing pharmacist. Every fellow I brought that up to at the time looked at me incredulously and urged against it saying I was overqualified and would be seen as a step back. They didn't mean that I was overqualified in the sense that I had more relevant experience, but pretty much consistent message with what Hels pointed out - the program REALLY isn't intended for practicing pharmacists. When you graduate with a PharmD you're not only a healthcare provider (after licensure) but also qualified to pursue a health scientist route.

An industry fellowship is specifically intended for fresh grads who want to develop into a health scientist straight out of school. Companies typically sponsor a fellowship for the purpose of grooming new grads from the ground up to be future leaders in an organization (preferably theirs), not to serve as a transitional program for existing pharmacists. Even from what I've seen, in the same department at the same company the fellows get a different induction, and get exposed to more events, strategic and high profile projects than regular entry-level employees. They get preferential treatment, and usually get offered a higher position/advanced role after their 2 year fellowship than someone who joined as a regular entry level FTE at the same time. It doesn't end there - they're often in a faster promotional track throughout the first decade of their career, especially if it's with the same company. As I said before - they're not "put to work" so much as they're "groomed".

Additionally, sponsoring a fellowship is an investment decision to the company with delayed (in some cases, intangible or unrealized) return. The actual cost to the company per fellow is quite a lot more than the fellow's stipend. That means that it's a risk and someone had to do some convincing to get the company on board with this. So - you can see why a company would consider accepting a pharmacist as going out on a limb when it probably doesn't fit the candidate profile that they sold to the decision makers when getting the fellowship approved, and there is no shortage of ideal candidates at Mid-Year. Simpy put, it's a lot of money and time to abandon the principle of who the fellowship was set up for.

Dual board certification in itself would probably not make a big difference because those achievements (respectable as they are) would be more related to being a healthcare provider. While being a US-licensed HCP is a plus, companies are primarily interested in your qualifications as a healthcare scientist. What they would prefer to see is that you've managed to develop some transferable skills as a health scientist while working as a pharmacist, and are qualified to apply for a regular position. To apply for a fellowship at this stage might come off as not having made any effort to explore and develop as a health scientist beyond what you graduated with - although you've been out of school for years.

 

[Argentium]

I also considered pursuing a fellowship after already being out of pharmacy school for a year or 2 as a practicing pharmacist. Every fellow I brought that up to at the time looked at me incredulously and urged against it saying I was overqualified and would be seen as a step back. They didn't mean that I was overqualified in the sense that I had more relevant experience, but pretty much consistent message with what Hels pointed out - the program REALLY isn't intended for practicing pharmacists. When you graduate with a PharmD you're not only a healthcare provider (after licensure) but also qualified to pursue a health scientist route.

An industry fellowship is specifically intended for fresh grads who want to develop into a health scientist straight out of school. Companies typically sponsor a fellowship for the purpose of grooming new grads from the ground up to be future leaders in an organization (preferably theirs), not to serve as a transitional program for existing pharmacists. Even from what I've seen, in the same department at the same company the fellows get a different induction, and get exposed to more events, strategic and high profile projects than regular entry-level employees. They get preferential treatment, and usually get offered a higher position/advanced role after their 2 year fellowship than someone who joined as a regular entry level FTE at the same time. It doesn't end there - they're often in a faster promotional track throughout the first decade of their career, especially if it's with the same company. As I said before - they're not "put to work" so much as they're "groomed".

Additionally, sponsoring a fellowship is an investment decision to the company with delayed (in some cases, intangible or unrealized) return. The actual cost to the company per fellow is quite a lot more than the fellow's stipend. That means that it's a risk and someone had to do some convincing to get the company on board with this. So - you can see why a company would consider accepting a pharmacist as going out on a limb when it probably doesn't fit the candidate profile that they sold to the decision makers when getting the fellowship approved, and there is no shortage of ideal candidates at Mid-Year. Simpy put, it's a lot of money and time to abandon the principle of who the fellowship was set up for.

Dual board certification in itself would probably not make a big difference because those achievements (respectable as they are) would be more related to being a healthcare provider. While being a US-licensed HCP is a plus, companies are primarily interested in your qualifications as a healthcare scientist. What they would prefer to see is that you've managed to develop some transferable skills as a health scientist while working as a pharmacist, and are qualified to apply for a regular position. To apply for a fellowship at this stage might come off as not having made any effort to explore and develop as a health scientist beyond what you graduated with - although you've been out of school for years.

Wazoodog makes a lot of good points. I would err on the side of caution in that being a FT practicing pharmcist doesn't automatically put you into the rejection pile, but the program really is intended for more "fresh graduates." I've seen a couple of people go into fellowships after ~1-2 years of retail, but haven't really seen more than that.

I also wouldn't underestimate the amount of effort that it takes to "un/re-train" someone out of bad habits vs just starting fresh - like Wazoo mentioned, there's no shortage of stellar candidates at ASHP. My 5th choice is oftentimes only slightly worse vs my 1st choice

 

[Hels2007]

It's not even about re-training, it's about personality. Desire to go for a fellowship while holding two board certifications and experience such certifications imply suggests a personality that is... undesirable in a fellow as most fellowship programs envision them. And there are plenty of P4 candidates who did all the right things and who are a great fit personality-wise - what could someone with years of clinical experience bring to the table to outweigh a good P4's "fast track" behaviors and experiences? When there are 30+ P4s competing with them, a 'post-clinical' candidate would have to have an amazing, blow-me-out-of-the-water intro interview so no other candidate would come close... Out of dozens of interviews I have conducted with fellowship applicants over several years, I have only had one such standout interviewee (who was, incidentally, a P4).

 

[PNNPharma]

Hi PNNPharma, thank you for offering advice. I was curious about two things. I'm interested in pursuing a career in the industry via a fellowship approach. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of details about all the fellowship options available, is there a list available where I can see what's out there (pharmaceutical company/associated university) to find out what's best for me. Also, I was curious if being dual-board certified (BCPS & BCACP) helps in making myself more competitive towards being accepted for a fellowship.

Rutgers and MCPHS cover a large portion of them. Here is a reddit post that has some of the other smaller programs:

As to the other posts that follow regarding pursuing fellowships after being out of school for a while, it all comes down to the interviewers and specific programs, but most of the time it is about the story you tell and if you are the most qualified and a good fit then when you graduated should not matter- I know in my experience when we interviewed, we never held it against someone if they had graduated a bit ago. What often hurt these non-current grads is an inability to tie their experiences into a compelling story on why they were the right candidate for the fellowship position at hand. If you do your research, tie it back to your experiences, etc. you will not only be fine but may even have the upper hand (especially if you are looking to go the Medical route). And just as case references there were not 1 but 2 fellows in my cohort who had previously completed a residency- one doing an MSL/Medical fellowship, the other in commercial

 

[Caicai]

Hi, i am a current P2 student and I am interested in pursuing a job in pharmacy industry. I applied several summer internships in some pharmaceutical companies like Regeneron and Novo Nordisk, but they have so many options that I don't know what should I fit. Because most of the positions seems like for Pharmaceutical major and even MBA majors. Till now I did not receive any response from them so I guess I might be rejected. What could I improve when I apply for such positions next time? Do you think there are still summer interns opportunities right now?
I also joined Clinical Research Program in my school and my mentor gave me several topics available, which are related to PkPd, pharmacogenomics, pharmaceutics, and multi-drug applications...etc. I am not sure what kind of field I want to do when I enter the Pharmacy Industry. Do you think this CRP research would made me competitive when applying fellowships? And also, do you think take Dual-degree in Pharmaceutical Science or Pharmacometrics would made me competitive?

Thank you

 

[zona2016]

sk, but they have so many options that I don't know what should I fit. Because most of the positions seems like for Pharmaceutical major and even MBA majors. Till now I did not receive any response from them so I guess I might be rejected. What could I improve when I apply for such positions next time? Do you think there are still summer interns opportunities right now?
I also joined Clinical Research Program in my school and my mentor gave me several topics available, which are related to PkPd, pharmacogenomics, pharmaceutics, and multi-drug applications...etc. I am not sure what kind of field I want to do when I enter the Pharmacy Industry. Do you think this CRP research would made me competitive when applying fel

Honestly, start with one and see if you like it. If not move on to the next opportunity. Big Pharma has a lot of areas and scopes and its on you to try to find the right one for you. Also, any experience will make you more competitive than people who get to their graduation and start applying to jobs then.

Also, the dual masters degrees are kinda useless when you can get paid to learn the same skills it such as in a PhD and/or fellowships. In addition, if you aren't sure about which area you are focusing on it doesn't make any sense to do a dual degree. Just focus on your degree, get good grades and participate in that program.

 

[SpecialtyPharmD]

Hello, not sure if this has been asked before but I wanted to know if anyone has went through the fellowship process in a given year, not matched or landed a fellowship and then reapplied the following year obtaining a fellowship? Is it worth waiting a year and obtaining certain experience, or are you better off applying for various positions and landing something to get your foot in the door for industry? Please let me know your thoughts! Thanks

 

[Hels2007]

I know of a few people who applied two years in a row for fellowships and were unsuccessful both times. Don't know of anyone who was rejected but then got a fellowship the following year... If you get a job in industry, it makes zero sense to give it up to go do a fellowship afterwards. The only way it would make sense if you got a low-pay job at an agency and then went for a fellowship, but even then, I would rather keep working and grow in your current job and then apply for an in-house client side job.

 

[SpecialtyPharmD]

I know of a few people who applied two years in a row for fellowships and were unsuccessful both times. Don't know of anyone who was rejected but then got a fellowship the following year... If you get a job in industry, it makes zero sense to give it up to go do a fellowship afterwards. The only way it would make sense if you got a low-pay job at an agency and then went for a fellowship, but even then, I would rather keep working and grow in your current job and then apply for an in-house client side job.

That definitely makes sense, I was just thinking along the lines if you were not able to get a job straight upon graduation in industry, if you still had a chance to obtain a fellowship. There definitely is a loss of pay/time that might not be worth going back. Thank you so much for your feedback!