Individual Sleep Patterns/Preferences

[medium rare]

I was consulting with a pediatric ENT and pediatric dentist earlier today on ankyloglossia regarding a patient and how this can contribute to behavioral and ADHD-like symptom presentation and the need for improved screening as it’s not entirely uncommon and generally underdiagnosed.

We all know about quality sleep as essential for optimal functioning and the conversation left me wondering about actual sleep patterns among healthcare professionals and how individual sleep requirements/preferences vary among us. Made me curious about others’ experiences with sleep. A few questions came up:

1. Number of hours of sleep you need to feel well rested during the day?

2. Time you go to bed/wake up?

3. Optimal room temperature to sleep?

4. Sleep environment (completely dark, dim light white noise, sound of the clock ticking, mattress/pillow firmness, etc.)?

5. Do you snore? Mouth or nose breather?

6. If partnered, does your partner snore? How disruptive is this?

7. Preferred sleepwear?

8. Trouble falling asleep, frequent waking, sleepwalking or parasomnic behaviors?

9. Can you sleep in cars or on planes/trains, etc?

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[Sushirolls]

If a child snores, they definitely need to be seen by Sleep Medicine. The majority of Sleep Medicine fellowships will do an adequate job covering pediatric sleep presentations and study interpretations, too. They know when to refer to ENT. OSA and a myriad of other conditions.

As for tongue tie, ENT snips at birth, and if necessary more snipping later in ensuing years. Not once in all my Psych training have I ever heard of any correlate of tongue tie with mental health symptoms. Pubs/Data etc would be cool to see if you have any stashed away. Anecdotal ENT/Dentist observations - meh?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

If a child snores, they definitely need to be seen by Sleep Medicine. The majority of Sleep Medicine fellowships will do an adequate job covering pediatric sleep presentations and study interpretations, too. They know when to refer to ENT. OSA and a myriad of other conditions.

As for tongue tie, ENT snips at birth, and if necessary more snipping later in ensuing years. Not once in all my Psych training have I ever heard of any correlate of tongue tie with mental health symptoms. Pubs/Data etc would be cool to see if you have any stashed away. Anecdotal ENT/Dentist observations - meh?

Yeah agree with Sushi here. If a tongue tie is that significant it's very unlikely it wasn't picked up by a pediatrician during well checks or by speech therapy when younger due to persistent articulation problems unless it's a pretty underresourced population or someone who never went to the doctor.

Also, how exactly is this "presenting with ADHD" symptoms? I'm not aware of ankyloglossia causing sleep problems/obstruction. More often ends up being picked up due to feeding problems as an infant or articulation problems as a toddler. It's actually pretty controversial to do anything about it to begin with.

Also agree with sushi that any kid who snores persistently (like not when they're sick or congested or something) should see sleep medicine/ pulmonology and/or ENT. Way more likely that a tonsillectomy is gonna solve some concern for sleep mimicking ADHD than a frenotomy.

 

[medium rare]

Agreed that any kid who is regularly snoring should see sleep medicine. They were saying that, with some of these patients, it can affect head/neck posture while sleeping which can partially obstruct the airway and result in behavioral symptoms. I had never heard of that, specifically, before but the frenotomy did reduce the symptoms to the extent that he is able to function well without medication - at least for now. I’ll be curious to see if it lasts. I’ve only been peripherally involved with the case.

 

[birchswing]

generally underdiagnosed

<Not a doctor or medical student>

I'm not a doctor, but this is an area I know a little bit about. I completely disagree that it's underdiagnosed. The interventions of frenotomies have skyrocketed in a field that is surgery-happy. It's rise is controversial, at the least. There are those who would argue it's extremely overdiagnosed and especially overtreated.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Agreed that any kid who is regularly snoring should see sleep medicine. They were saying that, with some of these patients, it can affect head/neck posture while sleeping which can partially obstruct the airway and result in behavioral symptoms. I had never heard of that, specifically, before but the frenotomy did reduce the symptoms to the extent that he is able to function well without medication - at least for now. I’ll be curious to see if it lasts. I’ve only been peripherally involved with the case.

How old is this kid?

 

[FlowRate]

Most of your questionnaire has been sufficiently researched to have population norms regarding variability or even specific recommendations that are universally applicable (even if some people claim personal preference differences.) There was a pretty interesting NYT Daily podcast on sleep lately that reviewed a lot of it incidentally.

 

[medium rare]

How old is this kid?

He’s a 7-year-old.

 

[wellbutrin.girlfriend]

Most of your questionnaire has been sufficiently researched to have population norms regarding variability or even specific recommendations that are universally applicable (even if some people claim personal preference differences.) There was a pretty interesting NYT Daily podcast on sleep lately that reviewed a lot of it incidentally.

Really enjoyed this podcast episode as well! Had no idea about all the potential applications of our circadian rhythms. Here’s the link if anyone is interested:

 

[Bartelby]

1. Number of hours of sleep you need to feel well rested during the day?
7

2. Time you go to bed/wake up?
11:30p to 7a

3. Optimal room temperature to sleep?
72

4. Sleep environment (completely dark, dim light white noise, sound of the clock ticking, mattress/pillow firmness, etc.)?
Dark with typical ambient noise (with no special blackout curtains etc., but no night light etc.)

5. Do you snore? Mouth or nose breather?
Occasionally, and not sure.

6. If partnered, does your partner snore? How disruptive is this?
Nope.

7. Preferred sleepwear?
Underwear

8. Trouble falling asleep, frequent waking, sleepwalking or parasomnic behaviors?
Fortunately no!

9. Can you sleep in cars or on planes/trains, etc?
Sort of. I half-sleep maybe half of the time on the flight. It's pretty miserable.

 

[medium rare]

1. Number of hours of sleep you need to feel well rested during the day?
8. I can get by with less but I feel it the next day. Especially if it’s more than one day.

2. Time you go to bed/wake up?
10-10:30 - 7. A bit later on the weekend.

3. Optimal room temperature to sleep?
72-74. Warmer than 75 and I start waking up.

4. Sleep environment (completely dark, dim light white noise, sound of the clock ticking, mattress/pillow firmness, etc.)?
Prefer completely dark. I can handle light noise but I can’t have music playing or the TV on. Medium support mattress and pillow.

5. Do you snore? Mouth or nose breather?
Occasionally but usually if I’ve had alcohol within a couple hours of bed. I can mouth breathe, unfortunately.

6. If partnered, does your partner snore? How disruptive is this?
Sometimes but usually not. More noticeable with alcohol. Not too disruptive to me.

7. Preferred sleepwear?
I’m a birthday suit type of guy.

8. Trouble falling asleep, frequent waking, sleepwalking or parasomnic behaviors?
Thankfully, no. I’m usually out within 15 minutes of going to bed and tend to sleep through the night.

9. Can you sleep in cars or on planes/trains, etc?
Rarely, but it’s never good sleep.

 

[reca]

I was consulting with a pediatric ENT and pediatric dentist earlier today on ankyloglossia regarding a patient and how this can contribute to behavioral and ADHD-like symptom presentation and the need for improved screening as it’s not entirely uncommon and generally underdiagnosed.

How the heck does tongue tie cause ADHD-like symptoms?

And just fyi, there's been a huge push for frenectomies among pediatric dentists over the past 2-3 years. They get paid a nice tidy sum for it. It's expanding to adults too, dentists saying you need it.

 

[Stagg737]

Idk if personal habits were actually wanted, but why not.

1. Number of hours of sleep you need to feel well rested during the day?
Can function getting 5 consistently, but need at least 7 to feel well-rested. 8-9 hours is ideal

2. Time you go to bed/wake up?
Bedtime varies a lot based on kids. Right now ideal would be 9:30 but sometimes I'm awake past midnight. Wake up at 5:15-5:30 d/t work. Normal circadian for me is around midnight-9 and used to be much later. I also have a paradoxical reaction/SE (restless legs/mild paresthesia) to melatonin.

3. Optimal room temperature to sleep?
69-70

4. Sleep environment (completely dark, dim light white noise, sound of the clock ticking, mattress/pillow firmness, etc.)?
As dark as possible, blackout curtains have been life-changing. Some background noise is okay, rain is great.

5. Do you snore? Mouth or nose breather?
Rarely, not sure but I think mostly a light mouth breather

6. If partnered, does your partner snore? How disruptive is this?
Occasionally but very mild, not disruptive

7. Preferred sleepwear?
PJ pants and a t-shirt. When it's colder thick socks as well otherwise I sometimes wake up unable to feel my feet/legs (Raynaud's sucks)

8. Trouble falling asleep, frequent waking, sleepwalking or parasomnic behaviors?
Historically terrible at falling asleep, but actually better lately. No other behaviors thankfully

9. Can you sleep in cars or on planes/trains, etc?
If I'm really tired and can lean my whole body a bit then yes, it's actually usually pretty restful too

 

[medium rare]

Idk if personal habits were actually wanted, but why not.

Yep, was curious about others’ sleep practices. Thanks.

 

[singasongofjoy]

Since the topic is sleep and I'm sure there are folks here who know waaaaaay more about bedwetting and heavy sleepers than I do: my kid is 4.5 and we recently tried and aborted night time toilet training (did the usual recommended things eg nothing but water or milk to drink past afternoon, nothing to drink after dinner) etc. etc. Waking her up to pee before I go to bed.

Kid still peeing a pretty big amount and just completely not waking up- she's a hard sleeper. Can sometimes tell she peed twice and it's already dried by the time she wakes up and I'm befuddled where all this pee is even coming from. (She's also regularly wetting through pull-ups; she's v. thin so still wearing size 2-3T at 4.5 yrs which is why I decided to bite the bullet on this and try training).

Questions - do most kids actually eventually just.... stop peeing at night? just waking up dry without going to the bathroom without any training or whatever? This seems to be the case amongst people I've surveyed recently but is also really surprising to me. It's a very rare exception in my family that anyone has ever slept through the night at any age without getting up to urinate at least once. I certainly haven't.

My kid has ADHD and I'm aware that correlates with later toilet training at night / higher rates of nocturnal enuresis into middle childhood. Folks who are more knowledgeable on these things- does this difference relate to being harder sleepers? Does melatonin exacerbate this problem (I assumed the effects were well worn off after 3 hours which is when I sometimes wake her up to go before I go to bed but maybe I'm wrong and this contributes to heavy sleep?). What's the general advice in such cases- how long do you continue on with pullups and bedwetting before breaking out the bell and pad? Any other advice or thoughts to keep in mind for the future? Should I just like get some teen-sized depends and duct-tape them on to her? (mostly j/k). other than mine, the only kid amongst my colleagues (kids ages 3-8) still wetting the bed at night is the 8yo who also happens to have ADHD and is now getting self-conscious about it and I have to remind myself not to assume that'll be our trajectory.

Also not to totally derail OP's initial interest in anecdotal info,
7-8 yrs to feel rested, but sometimes fatigue sneaks up on me in the PM and I realize it's likely due to intermittent sleep ro just, like, forgetting to drink water, so I'm not sure well-rested during the day is a great barometer for me- but 7 leaves me feeling rested enough to wake up without issue. Go to bed around 11, up at 7, 72 degrees unless partner is in the bed b/c he's like a toaster, must have white noise and dark and I'm one of those ppl that takes my own pillows wherever I go. No snoring- tonsillectomy & adenoidectomy in4th grade were quite literally life-changing. Had night terrors until 8 yrs old and sleep walking until probably when I got my tonsils out. Partner sometimes snores lightly. after third time of asking him to roll over, I go sleep somewhere else b/c changes in soundscape wake me up easily ( white noise goes off for some reason immediately wake up and my dad often trade thoughts about various white noise apps / combos of different sounds because we both pick up on the rhythms / loops annoyingly easily and mechanical fan- which we both use - periodically have to take it apart and clean filter / rebalance it so it's a constant sound; earplugs are annoying because can hear internal noises more, like my own breathing). can't sleep w/o undies and socks. intermittent difficulty falling asleep or with waking up and not able to resume. Never much able to sleep anywhere that involves sitting up (planes etc.).

 

[Stagg737]

7-8 yrs to feel restedd

Dang, I'd have to wake up to pee a few times per sleep if I needed 7-8 years to feel rested...

Partner sometimes snores lightly. after third time of asking him to roll over, I go sleep somewhere else b/c changes in soundscape wake me up easily ( white noise goes off for some reason immediately wake up and my dad often trade thoughts about various white noise apps / combos of different sounds because we both pick up on the rhythms / loops annoyingly easily and mechanical fan- which we both use - periodically have to take it apart and clean filter / rebalance it so it's a constant sound; earplugs are annoying because can hear internal noises more, like my own breathing).

Have you tried the brown noise videos on Youtube? There are some good videos with 8-12 hours of brown noise that don't seem to noticeably loop that I used to study with all the time in med school. Might be worth checking out if you need background noise.

 

[futureapppsy2]

This is off-topic, but the questions about preferred sleepwear remained me of a poster on another forum like 15 years ago who *vehemently* insisted that all men should go to single-sex (men only) colleges solely so that they could experience the joys of sleeping naked (which apparently you can't do at co-ed colleges...?), for some reason. It was very WTF? and sticks with me to this day for that reason.

 

[medium rare]

This is off-topic, but the questions about preferred sleepwear remained me of a poster on another forum like 15 years ago who *vehemently* insisted that all men should go to single-sex (men only) colleges solely so that they could experience the joys of sleeping naked (which apparently you can't do at co-ed colleges...?), for some reason. It was very WTF? and sticks with me to this day for that reason.

That has to be one of the strangest things I’ve heard. Sounds more like latent homoerotic desire than the enjoyment of sleeping naked…

 

[TexasPhysician]

1. Number of hours of sleep you need to feel well rested during the day? 6-8. I don’t use an alarm. My body just wakes up or a kid asks for breakfast.

2. Time you go to bed/wake up?
10-11pm to bed

3. Optimal room temperature to sleep? 70

4. Sleep environment (completely dark, dim light white noise, sound of the clock ticking, mattress/pillow firmness, etc.)?
Completely dark with fan and noise machine. I drown out everything.

5. Do you snore? Mouth or nose breather? Only when I’m congested.

6. If partnered, does your partner snore? How disruptive is this?
Nope

7. Preferred sleepwear? Boxer briefs

8. Trouble falling asleep, frequent waking, sleepwalking or parasomnic behaviors? Sporadic difficulty falling asleep probably 1-2x/month.

9. Can you sleep in cars or on planes/trains, etc? It would have to be a really rough night before to do this.

 

[clausewitz2]

1. Number of hours of sleep you need to feel well rested during the day?
6-7. I can function for a good long while on 5 hours of sleep but

2. Time you go to bed/wake up?
5-5:30 on weekdays. Before 7:30 AM on weekends. To bed around 10, lights out 10:30 on weekdays, might be closer to midnight on weekends. I am old.

3. Optimal room temperature to sleep? High 60s. Blankets exist and I prefer to use them. Warmer than this and blankets become quite uncomfortable.

4. Sleep environment (completely dark, dim light white noise, sound of the clock ticking, mattress/pillow firmness, etc.)?

At least dim is good, dark better. I prefer white noise but can make do without it. If the clock ticking is bothering me I reckon I'm not really sleepy enough yet and am going to bed too early. Very firm mattress is ideal, I find sleeping on traditional futon cushions very comfortable. Pillows semi-firm.

5. Do you snore? Mouth or nose breather?

Nope on snoring, mostly nose

6. If partnered, does your partner snore? How disruptive is this?
Nope

7. Preferred sleepwear?
Underwear in summer, shirt and pajama pants in winter

8. Trouble falling asleep, frequent waking, sleepwalking or parasomnic behaviors?

Might wake up a fair amount if partner is having trouble with sleep. Routinely wake up once nightly for bathroom. Only have trouble falling asleep if I am very congested or have substantial post-nasal drip. Never had any sleepwalking or parasomnias I know of.

9. Can you sleep in cars or on planes/trains, etc?

Usually no, I also am the one volunteering to drive in the middle of the night typically. For short plane rides I don't bother trying but for long-haul flights, if the departure is in the morning or early afternoon I will deliberately not sleep the night before and then crash immediately on getting seated. 10 hours in a plane is way more tolerable if you're only conscious for 4-5 of it. I still usually only end up sleeping about 4-5 hours this way max, so it's usually not hard to sleep at a normal-ish time when I get where I'm going.

 

[TexasPhysician]

4. Sleep environment (completely dark, dim light white noise, sound of the clock ticking, mattress/pillow firmness, etc.)?

If the clock ticking is bothering me I reckon I'm not really sleepy enough yet and am going to bed too early. Very firm mattress is ideal, I find sleeping on traditional futon cushions very comfortable. Pillows semi-firm.

OMG. A clock ticking at night is like water torture to me.

 

[clausewitz2]

OMG. A clock ticking at night is like water torture to me.

If you're mildly sleep deprived most of the time it turns out to be very easy to ignore it at bedtime.

 

[singasongofjoy]

Dang, I'd have to wake up to pee a few times per sleep if I needed 7-8 years to feel rested...



Have you tried the brown noise videos on Youtube? There are some good videos with 8-12 hours of brown noise that don't seem to noticeably loop that I used to study with all the time in med school. Might be worth checking out if you need background noise.

bahahaha obviously I meant hours - wasn't feeling well-rested when I typed that! Thanks for the rec re: youtube brown noise. I'll def give it a try!

 

[Ceke2002]

1. Number of hours of sleep you need to feel well rested during the day?

8, but sometimes more depending on current (non sleep related) health issues. Also 'day' isn't necessarily applicable to me.

2. Time you go to bed/wake up?

Usually between 3-5am is a good time for me to sleep. I wake up when I wake up, which is typically after 8-9 hours.

3. Optimal room temperature to sleep?

Anywhere from 16-18C I guess

4. Sleep environment (completely dark, dim light white noise, sound of the clock ticking, mattress/pillow firmness, etc.)?
Dark with typical ambient noise (with no special blackout curtains etc., but no night light etc.)

Dim lighting, firm orthopaedic type mattress, firm pillow, ambient noise is fine, but no non ambient sounds and most definitely no ticking clocks. I seriously hate the sound of a ticking clock if I'm trying to sleep, it's like nails on a chalk board to me, like I actually start getting irrationally annoyed at the audacity of the clock for ticking while I'm trying to get to sleep.

5. Do you snore? Mouth or nose breather?

Snore occasionally, usually associated with hayfever/allergy season. I think I'm probably a bit of both, might start off breathing through my nose and then switch to mouth breathing in deeper stages of sleep, although I'm not really sure.

6. If partnered, does your partner snore? How disruptive is this?

Husband did use to be quite a bad snorer, but isn't too bad now. Yes it was disruptive, but only in the way that it might have pushed my sleep schedule from 2-5am bedtime to 4-7am whilst I waited for his snoring cycles to finish. We generally sleep in different shifts as it is.

7. Preferred sleepwear?

T-shirt night gown, comfortable elastic waisted pyjama pants, natural fibres & camisoles/singlet dresses in hotter weather.

8. Trouble falling asleep, frequent waking, sleepwalking or parasomnic behaviors?

I have Delayed Onset Sleep Disorder (diagnosed) including non circadian cycles, also used to have quite frequent sleep paralysis episodes (although that never stopped me from getting to sleep); very, very occasional parasomnic behavious (like once every few years) such as answering the phone and attempting to hold a conversation while I'm asleep (interesting when it's your GP on the other end of the line and he's wondering if you're having a stroke because you're making zero sense and slurring your words), or getting up and starting to make coffee and breakfast whilst asleep. Generally speaking though as long as I stick to the sleep pattern that fits me best the sleep I get is pretty restful. I've tried various methods and treatments to establish a more 'normal' sleep pattern, but nothing's really worked so I just accept I have a certain individualised sleep pattern that my brain/body prefers and I try not to step too far out of that if I can help it.

9. Can you sleep in cars or on planes/trains, etc?

Not really, or at least I'd probably have to be tired to the point of exhaustion to do so. Too many things to look at or hear for me to sleep, all that scenery and clouds and stuff.