Implementing block exams

[DVMtobe07]

Good Morning to everyone on the forums,

I currently attend ross university and am in my 6th semester (one to go!) as of next semester the university has decided to roll out WEEKLY CUMULATIVE block exams worth 5% of our grade per class. This is being rolled out to all semester and is not being phased in. They are sighting our NAVLE pass rate as the inciting cause, we did go from 82% to 88% on the last set of data. The “Dean of academics” held a town hall to discuss the block exams and there was standing room only. In this meeting, he had a TERRIBLE attitude towards the students and on multiple occasions said “I don’t care” to statements that were made. And that “since his idea is so good, everyone should benefit.” So mostly a “too bad, so sad if you dont like it” attitude.

In 7th semester we are required to “SOAP” our animals (donkey and sheep) twice per day almost daily (1 day off per person), have labs almost every afternoon, mandatory classes every day, week long overnight ER shifts and multiple surgeries to prepare for. We were told we should have no time for ourselves.

My “beef” isn’t with the block exams themselves, the frequency seems very short-sighted.

I guess my question is, for those of you who would oppose the implementation of these kind of exams, what compelling arguments would you think could be used to have a discussion that would prompt administration to re-consider. I’m not saying they even care what is being said, but it would be nice to find some talking points to present at the next town hall on monday.

Also does anyone have a list of schools that do block exams? I would like to compare and contrast NAVLE scores.

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[CalliopeDVM]

Do you mean that every week there will be one day dedicated just to exams?

 

[MixedAnimals77]

Hey,
I think one of your classmates already did the research into this that there are currently no other AVMA accredited schools that do weekly cumulative block exams like you will-look around in the prevet forms and you'll find on the Ross form and a few others this is being discussed. Most schools have their NAVLE pass rates published. I can really only speak for my school we usually have a ~99% pass rate most years. We do not do exams like has been described. First year exams are pretty sporadic and usually come in chunks-so no exams for 2-3 weeks and then 3-4 exams in the span of 2 weeks usually. Year 2 is more intense. We usually have 1-2 exams a week with all of them being 2+ hours a piece for a single class. We then have 2 weeks off from classes where we work though cases with teammates and a facilitator overseeing it all working on SOAPing and client communication-these days are long and exhausting. The spring is less intense I've been told. Most of our exams are not directly cumulative, but is passively accumulative to some extent especially when talking about clinical pathology and systems pathology where you are working up to dissecting cases from top to bottom figuring out what is wrong. By the time you get to year 3 we have exams pretty much every week twice a week usually Monday and Friday, but they're not as grueling as year 2 exams.You also have to complete your spay block at some point during the semester during which time you have a week of patient care which includes SOAPing in the am and pm. They also have elective labs in the afternoon most days. I don't really have an argument to help you for or against, but merely information.

I know Mississippi state is the most accelerated program currently doing 2 years of didactic and 2 years of clinicals-their NAVLE pass rate is usually ~99%. LMU who has only been open 2 years had a 87.4% and then 95.1% pass rate. Midwestern had a 99% pass rate last year and they are just as new as LMU. SGU had a 95% pass rate last year.
The fact that Ross's pass rate is so low in comparison to other veterinary schools is a concern especially how long it has been open. I would venture to say there is a flaw in the curriculum to some extent that is proving detrimental to many of those attending there. I don't think their current plan is a solution, but it might be-I'm not there and I don't know how your curriculum is designed currently. I wish you the best of luck. I do hope though that they do implement in some wellness for you all-because what your describing doesn't sound healthy.

 

[PetVet7]

Do you mean that every week there will be one day dedicated just to exams?

Nope. We’ll still have class those days. The block exams are 45-50 questions and we’ll be given 50 minutes to complete them.

 

[PetVet7]

My concern is that we go year-round and are given very short breaks to recharge between semesters. Now we’re expected to stay on top of every subject to be tested over it weekly. That’s 30 weeks out of the year we’re stressing over tests. Poor mental health and burnout already run rampant in our field. This only makes that worse.

Just my opinion, but they allow people to fail multiple classes and I know many people who study enough just to pass. I think this translates over when students go to take the NAVLE. I personally feel academically prepared with the current testing system. I think implemented stricter acceptance standards would improve NAVLE scores.

 

[MixedAnimals77]

Just wanted to quickly point out that Mizzou also uses this 2+2 curriculum design; it’s not unique to Mississippi State. That school generally has a very high NAVLE pass rate, as well.

Might scratch down more thoughts here later when I’m actually at my computer, but, yeah, I mostly agree with your post.

The difference is Mizzou is technically 2.5 didactics and 1.5 clinicals. Mississippi is a true 2+2 at least that's what I understand from talking to the students from both schools. Mizzou goes into the summer and from my understanding Mississippi is done after the spring so they start clinicals in May where as Mizzou starts clinicals later that summer. I could be wrong though.

 

[britzen]

The first two years at VMCVM has an integrated curriculum where all students take the same core classes organized by body system. Third year is track courses / electives.

During the integrated curriculum we take one 2-hour exam every two weeks that covers all subjects taught during that time frame, and then a final exam at the end of the course (about 8 weeks worth of material). Exams are first thing Monday morning; we usually have classes in the afternoon afterward.

Depending on the number of lectures we have had, each hour of lecture has 1.5-2 questions associated with it on average. (There's a little bit of variation depending on the course leader. Some always do 2 questions per lecture, which means the exams vary in length. Some course leaders set the exam at 60 questions regardless of the number of lectures.)

Some questions can come from lab material in addition to the lecture material, especially during weeks that we had fewer lectures and more lab time.

The two-week exams can have a certain number of cumulative questions (it's either 5% or 10%, I don't remember). The final exams are obviously cumulative for the course overall but can also have previous course material in theory.

We also have lab practical exams sprinkled in, usually 1 or 2 for every 8 weeks worth of material. These are mostly anatomy exams, but some courses also include gross path/clin path/histo/bacteriology/parasitology/etc depending on the course material.

The third-year classes are run independently of one another - so each class has its own exams that they run on their own schedules. (I am only a 2nd year so can't speak much to the third year coursework).


The first class that operated under the current curriculum takes the NAVLE this year, so pass rates are TBD
The pass rate under the older, more traditional curriculum was 98-99% for the last 5 years.

 

[exotics&wildlifehopeful]

My concern is that we go year-round and are given very short breaks to recharge between semesters. Now we’re expected to stay on top of every subject to be tested over it weekly. That’s 30 weeks out of the year we’re stressing over tests. Poor mental health and burnout already run rampant in our field. This only makes that worse.

Just my opinion, but they allow people to fail multiple classes and I know many people who study enough just to pass. I think this translates over when students go to take the NAVLE. I personally feel academically prepared with the current testing system. I think implemented stricter acceptance standards would improve NAVLE scores.

I 100% agree with you. It’s concerning how many of my classmates in first semester skip all of their lectures, and say they’ll panapto them later. And having 180+ people per class is slightly ridiculous.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

. I think implemented stricter acceptance standards would improve NAVLE scores.

But it wouldn't improve their income, which is the primary motivator of for-profit schools like Ross. Their business model is dependent on accepting lots of students by having less-strict acceptance standards, even if not all of their students survive to graduation.

Cynical? Maybe, but still true, IMO. It doesn't mean those for-profit schools like Ross can't and don't produce excellent veterinarians, but they operate on a different plan.

 

[PetVet7]

I 100% agree with you. It’s concerning how many of my classmates in first semester skip all of their lectures, and say they’ll panapto them later. And having 180+ people per class is slightly ridiculous.

I’ve lost 30-40 classmates every semester. It’s ridiculous.

 

[PetVet7]

But it wouldn't improve their income, which is the primary motivator of for-profit schools like Ross. Their business model is dependent on accepting lots of students by having less-strict acceptance standards, even if not all of their students survive to graduation.

Cynical? Maybe, but still true, IMO. It doesn't mean those for-profit schools like Ross can't and don't produce excellent veterinarians, but they operate on a different plan.

Exactly. I’ve come to learn it really is all about the money with little regard to student’s wellbeing.

 

[battie]

At Illinois, we do have block scheduling and testing. We have four 8-week quarters that have 1 midterm and 1 final that all of the subjects are a part of. Depending on the year and quarter, tests are worth between 40-90% of the overall grade. The testing format is pretty consistent quarter to quarter and year to year.

The midterm covers the first four weeks of every quarter, and every subject is on that one midterm. We have about 60-70 lectures on that midterm test with 2 questions per lecture hour, making the midterm 120-140 questions. We have lectures generally the same week as the midterm and that information will also be on that midterm (we had 16 lectures the week of last quarter's midterm). We get 3 hours to take the midterm, but have no other class that day. The day before the test is considered a reading day with no new material.

The final is over the course of two days. Day 1 is just info weeks 5-8, and Day 2 is cumulative for all 8 weeks. We get 120-140 questions for Day 1, and then around 100 questions for Day 2. We still have class finals week. Some quarters have 1 reading day (meaning class on Monday and Tuesday for a total of 10-15 lectures), some quarters have 2 reading days (so just 5-7 lectures on Monday). We get three hours each day to take the exam, but don't have any class that day.

Our lab info can be on these exams, which is an extra 2-4 hours per week. Electives are not included in these exams and have their own passing criteria

Overall, I actualy wish we did have a cumulative block exam every week, or every other week. There's so much material that when you cover 80 slides in one lecture hour, it's hard to focus your studying on "high yield" stuff that can be tested over. Everything is fair game, and some professors will test on some obscure stuff that you will never look at because it will never be important outside of the classroom. So those are questions that a lot of people will miss simply because they thought the other 79 slides were more important. If you had more frequent tests, then it would balance out that "high yield" testing material that can be covered. That first test or so would also give people the opportunity to see how a specific professor will write questions, which in of itself is an important test taking aspect. Having more tests would also make each test worth less apiece. In our second year, our tests are worth 45% of our grade each. If you mess up one of those tests, it tanks your grade pretty drastically. There's discussion on whether or not to add quizzes (which we have our first year) to our second year curriculum to balance out those points. Doing so actually reduces stress significantly, in my opinion. It also forces you to stay on top of the material. There's a significant amount of people in our curriculum who don't stay on top of stuff and are 25+ lectures behind when exam week rolls around. Right now, just 2 weeks into the second quarter, I'm already behind by probably 15 lectures between either making outlines or listening to the lectures cause I didn't have outlines ready at the start of class. I've considerably reduced my commitments outside of class, too. For the people who do a lot, it gets to be pretty overwhelming pretty quickly if there's not that self or external motivation to stay on top of things.

We have made some changes though. Class of 2019 got it changed for later classes that there will not be junior surgery during exam weeks, which I think it is in our benefit. We also don't have a lot of school tied expectations. Our attendance isn't mandatory for the vast majority of our lectures, and they're all recorded with the blessing of most professors. There's not a massive expectation to be involved in ECs (to the point where our ASA dean tells us to quit ECs at any point we feel our grades are in jeopardy). So it would be more doable for us to have weekly or biweekly exams/quizzes than it sounds like for you guys.

I bring up these points not to discourage you from trying to stop these changes that are happening. If you guys don't think it's doable, then it very well may not be. But due to your specific school's current method of student selection, having more opportunities for people to rebound very well may help boost that NAVLE rate (which I did not realize was so low!). You have a point of having stricter admissions criteria probably would also help with the NAVLE scores as well!! There are plenty of qualified students who are not accepted anywhere that could fill those seats; we're not lacking in capable applicants by any means. But as was pointed out, for-profit schools have a different mentality. There's a reason why the human medical schools on the islands are not considered a viable option to earn an MD/DO, and that's because they have an even more atrocious attrition rate and a boards failure rate (sub-50% of all students who matriculate, apparently). At this point, it sounds like the school's accreditation is the main concern, and not students well-being.

 

[exotics&wildlifehopeful]

At Illinois, we do have block scheduling and testing. We have four 8-week quarters that have 1 midterm and 1 final that all of the subjects are a part of. Depending on the year and quarter, tests are worth between 40-90% of the overall grade. The testing format is pretty consistent quarter to quarter and year to year.

The midterm covers the first four weeks of every quarter, and every subject is on that one midterm. We have about 60-70 lectures on that midterm test with 2 questions per lecture hour, making the midterm 120-140 questions. We have lectures generally the same week as the midterm and that information will also be on that midterm (we had 16 lectures the week of last quarter's midterm). We get 3 hours to take the midterm, but have no other class that day. The day before the test is considered a reading day with no new material.

The final is over the course of two days. Day 1 is just info weeks 5-8, and Day 2 is cumulative for all 8 weeks. We get 120-140 questions for Day 1, and then around 100 questions for Day 2. We still have class finals week. Some quarters have 1 reading day (meaning class on Monday and Tuesday for a total of 10-15 lectures), some quarters have 2 reading days (so just 5-7 lectures on Monday). We get three hours each day to take the exam, but don't have any class that day.

Our lab info can be on these exams, which is an extra 2-4 hours per week. Electives are not included in these exams and have their own passing criteria

Overall, I actualy wish we did have a cumulative block exam every week, or every other week. There's so much material that when you cover 80 slides in one lecture hour, it's hard to focus your studying on "high yield" stuff that can be tested over. Everything is fair game, and some professors will test on some obscure stuff that you will never look at because it will never be important outside of the classroom. So those are questions that a lot of people will miss simply because they thought the other 79 slides were more important. If you had more frequent tests, then it would balance out that "high yield" testing material that can be covered. That first test or so would also give people the opportunity to see how a specific professor will write questions, which in of itself is an important test taking aspect. Having more tests would also make each test worth less apiece. In our second year, our tests are worth 45% of our grade each. If you mess up one of those tests, it tanks your grade pretty drastically. There's discussion on whether or not to add quizzes (which we have our first year) to our second year curriculum to balance out those points. Doing so actually reduces stress significantly, in my opinion. It also forces you to stay on top of the material. There's a significant amount of people in our curriculum who don't stay on top of stuff and are 25+ lectures behind when exam week rolls around. Right now, just 2 weeks into the second quarter, I'm already behind by probably 15 lectures between either making outlines or listening to the lectures cause I didn't have outlines ready at the start of class. I've considerably reduced my commitments outside of class, too. For the people who do a lot, it gets to be pretty overwhelming pretty quickly if there's not that self or external motivation to stay on top of things.

We have made some changes though. Class of 2019 got it changed for later classes that there will not be junior surgery during exam weeks, which I think it is in our benefit. We also don't have a lot of school tied expectations. Our attendance isn't mandatory for the vast majority of our lectures, and they're all recorded with the blessing of most professors. There's not a massive expectation to be involved in ECs (to the point where our ASA dean tells us to quit ECs at any point we feel our grades are in jeopardy). So it would be more doable for us to have weekly or biweekly exams/quizzes than it sounds like for you guys.

I bring up these points not to discourage you from trying to stop these changes that are happening. If you guys don't think it's doable, then it very well may not be. But due to your specific school's current method of student selection, having more opportunities for people to rebound very well may help boost that NAVLE rate (which I did not realize was so low!). You have a point of having stricter admissions criteria probably would also help with the NAVLE scores as well!! There are plenty of qualified students who are not accepted anywhere that could fill those seats; we're not lacking in capable applicants by any means. But as was pointed out, for-profit schools have a different mentality. There's a reason why the human medical schools on the islands are not considered a viable option to earn an MD/DO, and that's because they have an even more atrocious attrition rate and a boards failure rate (sub-50% of all students who matriculate, apparently). At this point, it sounds like the school's accreditation is the main concern, and not students well-being.

Honestly it makes me feel better knowing that another AVMA accredited school uses a block type testing system and has good NAVLE scores. In the meetings we went to we were told we would be the first AVMA accredited school doing block testing, so in my mind I wanted to know why we were creating a new curriculum/ testing style when no other AVMA school did that. It’s just a little discouraging coming into the first year and having everything change in the middle of it.

 

[DVMtobe07]

Do you mean that every week there will be one day dedicated just to exams?

Sort of. Monday will
Be ours, and you have 50ish questions spread across all classes and you get one hour.

 

[DVMtobe07]

Honestly it makes me feel better knowing that another AVMA accredited school uses a block type testing system and has good NAVLE scores. In the meetings we went to we were told we would be the first AVMA accredited school doing block testing, so in my mind I wanted to know why we were creating a new curriculum/ testing style when no other AVMA school did that. It’s just a little discouraging coming into the first year and having everything change in the middle of it.

I get it. It’s hard being in 6th and having this thrown on your for your last semester.

 

[hizi]

Idk... I do not like this. I applied to Ross and now I am rethinking my decision. I think this would add the burnout of students and increase the stress in students. I think I will apply to SGU instead!

 

[DVMDream]

Sort of. Monday will
Be ours, and you have 50ish questions spread across all classes and you get one hour.

Are they just testing on things learned from the prior week?

 

[Luv2f0to]

Are they just testing on things learned from the prior week?

Yes but it will also be cumulative from previous weeks.


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[DVMDream]

Yes but it will also be cumulative from previous weeks.


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UK does semester long exams. 1 exam over all courses, 10 short answer questions, worth 90+% of the grade for the semester.

I'd rather the weekly block exams. I mean neither sound enjoyable but I don't think it isn't doable to have an exam a week.

 

[Luv2f0to]

UK does semester long exams. 1 exam over all courses, 10 short answer questions, worth 90+% of the grade for the semester.

I'd rather the weekly block exams. I mean neither sound enjoyable but I don't think it isn't doable to have an exam a week.

I agree. I’d rather the weekly blocks than 1 exam per semester. At this point it is what it is and I’m just going to try to make the best of it.


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[Squeaksmom]

A lot of our courses have a midterm worth 50% of the grade and a cumulative final worth the other 50%. I think I'd like the format you're describing better.

 

[hizi]

My concern is that we go year-round and are given very short breaks to recharge between semesters. Now we’re expected to stay on top of every subject to be tested over it weekly. That’s 30 weeks out of the year we’re stressing over tests. Poor mental health and burnout already run rampant in our field. This only makes that worse.

This is what I think too. So on top of all those exams students will also have to take a midterm and a final?

I sent my application to SGU today. I won't be attending to Ross. Good luck to everyone!!!

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Class of 2019 got it changed for later classes that there will not be junior surgery during exam weeks, which I think it is in our benefit.

you're effin' welcome That was some serious BS. Half of the class had bonus study time, my half of the class was on surgery for 8 hours on Tuesday and doing the rest of the jrsx duties every day that week. I'm hoping they also finally listened to us and added the liver into 1st/3rd year lectures? I still am having to look up relatively simple concepts for liver patients lol

 

[battie]

you're effin' welcome That was some serious BS. Half of the class had bonus study time, my half of the class was on surgery for 8 hours on Tuesday and doing the rest of the jrsx duties every day that week. I'm hoping they also finally listened to us and added the liver into 1st/3rd year lectures? I still am having to look up relatively simple concepts for liver patients lol

Yes!!! Granted, I have other issues with how junior surgery is set up scheduling, but this is an improvement.

Starting with my class, liver was added to 1st and 3rd year lectures. The fact it already wasn't is ridiculous.

 

[DVMtobe07]

Idk... I do not like this. I applied to Ross and now I am rethinking my decision. I think this would add the burnout of students and increase the stress in students. I think I will apply to SGU instead!

my opinion is very strong. If I could do it all over again, I would never step food on this island or give ross a dime. We are just a number to them. We are just money. And we get zero input in our education.

 

[hizi]

I’ve lost 30-40 classmates every semester. It’s ridiculous.

wow, 30-40 classmates that fail every semester?

 

[DVMtobe07]

wow, 30-40 classmates that fail every semester?

oh they love to fail people and get more money.

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

oh they love to fail people and get more money.

How many people do you guys start with? With that attrition rate I don't understand how you even have a class by the end of the 7(?) semesters.

 

[Squeaksmom]

wow, 30-40 classmates that fail every semester?

My whole class is 35 people!

 

[DVMtobe07]

How many people do you guys start with? With that attrition rate I don't understand how you even have a class by the end of the 7(?) semesters.

so we start with anywhere between 160 and 190, you still have people because if you fail a class, you drop down to the next one and just retake it the next semester. The rate of people failing out is probably about 2%, but the rate of people failing a class is about 20% per semester class.

 

[PetVet7]

I started with 205 and we now have about 175. You lose a lot of classmates each semester but you also gain a lot from the class above you, so it evens out.

I’m not sure how many they started with, but the last 7th semester left for clinics with 110.

 

[battie]

I would think the failure rate is the reason for the change. Maybe 2% overall leave due to grades, but losing 20-30 people per year is very disconcerting.

 

[Lupin21]

I would think the failure rate is the reason for the change. Maybe 2% overall leave due to grades, but losing 20-30 people per year is very disconcerting.

Ross takes on people who are weaker in academics though, so this is the trade off. Many can still make it, but vet school is still one of the hardest things to get through based on memorization and sheer amount of material to be examined on. They look at applicants somewhat holistically, but that doesn't always help the first years of book learning.

 

[exotics&wildlifehopeful]

I would think the failure rate is the reason for the change. Maybe 2% overall leave due to grades, but losing 20-30 people per year is very disconcerting.

The guy in charge of the change said it’s specifically because he wants to raise NAVLE scores and believes people are passing courses they shouldn’t be passing.

 

[battie]

The guy in charge of the change said it’s specifically because he wants to raise NAVLE scores and believes people are passing courses they shouldn’t be passing.

So basically the fail out rate *should* be higher than what it actually is?

 

[DVMtobe07]

So basically the fail out rate *should* be higher than what it actually is?

this whole
Thing is a vanity project. He is basing it on The University of Pretoria South Africa because HE went there. They do not even commonly take the navle. I’m not sure what Kansas does now but at one point, I had a friend that went there when they implemented weekly block exams, but they only did it for INCOMING students and didn’t screw over existing students with a new testing method. I heard a lot of good things about Ross from doctors I worked with, but I guarantee that I will be more than happy to tell people what I really think once I’m done.

 

[DVMtobe07]

So basically the fail out rate *should* be higher than what it actually is?

As another Note, our genuinely good professors are leaving in droves because of how the administration not only treats us, but treats them. One of my absolute favorite professors as spend the majority of her career, is leaving after next semester. A lot of amazing professors have been driven out by the administration, a good majority knew how to teach. Now they are bringing in these professors that are newly board certified in whatever and they can’t teach or write questions to save their lives. We had a professor for GI Small animal medicine and her questions had answers about things that she never even taught, she used a few previous professors questions. It was a disaster. I wish they audited professors questions more.

 

[DVMtobe07]

I would think the failure rate is the reason for the change. Maybe 2% overall leave due to grades, but losing 20-30 people per year is very disconcerting.

I don’t know how it is where you are but I know many vet schools that I have friends at or know doctors that went to, were able to pass 2 classes overall with a “D”. Our lowest grade can only be a 70 “C” to pass. There are many people I know that have gotten 69.94 or similar
And failed a course because “70 is passing”, I think that’s bananas, I do well, for the most part, but you’re always in constant fear

 

[DVMtobe07]

I started with 205 and we now have about 175. You lose a lot of classmates each semester but you also gain a lot from the class above you, so it evens out.

I’m not sure how many they started with, but the last 7th semester left for clinics with 110.

they only started with 125 because ross F’ed up and “forgot”to send out acceptance letters to 62
People, that’s why black is so big.

 

[battie]

I don’t know how it is where you are but I know many vet schools that I have friends at or know doctors that went to, were able to pass 2 classes overall with a “D”. Our lowest grade can only be a 70 “C” to pass. There are many people I know that have gotten 69.94 or similar
And failed a course because “70 is passing”, I think that’s bananas, I do well, for the most part, but you’re always in constant fear

At Illinois, we need to maintain a 60% per quarter, but a 70% overall (we dont have grades per class, just per term because of our block system). I repeated first year because I ended with a 69.45%. I missed it by 4 questions on the final. Its only under extreme extenuating circumstances that they would break that rule.

I have no problem with them maintaining a "70 is a 70" mentality. At least for my school, it's clear from day one how our grading works. As soon as someone steps foot in the school, they accept those terms.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I don’t know how it is where you are but I know many vet schools that I have friends at or know doctors that went to, were able to pass 2 classes overall with a “D”. Our lowest grade can only be a 70 “C” to pass. There are many people I know that have gotten 69.94 or similar
And failed a course because “70 is passing”, I think that’s bananas, I do well, for the most part, but you’re always in constant fear

Eh, I understand but....when do you draw the line? 69.95? 69.90? 69.50? 69.0? 68.0? Etc. How could you justify a pass to the 69.5 student but not the 69.0 student when that 69.0 student comes to your office demanding to know why their buddy got a pass when they didn't? How could you be completely sure to treat everyone fairly?

Unfortunately a line does need to be drawn. You start reneging on that rule and it is unfair to everyone.

 

[DVMtobe07]

Eh, I understand but....when do you draw the line? 69.95? 69.90? 69.50? 69.0? 68.0? Etc. How could you justify a pass to the 69.5 student but not the 69.0 student when that 69.0 student comes to your office demanding to know why their buddy got a pass when they didn't? How could you be completely sure to treat everyone fairly?

Unfortunately a line does need to be drawn. You start reneging on that rule and it is unfair to everyone.

the problem is that we all
Learn rounding in, idk first grade, 5 and over round up, 4 and under stay the same. Not being a smart ass to you, I promise, but rounding needs to be a thing.

 

[deleted676737]

Eh, I understand but....when do you draw the line? 69.95? 69.90? 69.50? 69.0? 68.0? Etc. How could you justify a pass to the 69.5 student but not the 69.0 student when that 69.0 student comes to your office demanding to know why their buddy got a pass when they didn't? How could you be completely sure to treat everyone fairly?

Unfortunately a line does need to be drawn. You start reneging on that rule and it is unfair to everyone.

This.

I am super empathetic to anyone who doesn’t quite make a passing mark. Really. I was dismissed halfway through the DVM program at ISU after being placed on academic probation the previous semester. I was brunting some pretty severe mental health issues. It showed in my grades. Actually, I had to order a transcript from the vet school the other day (am applying to do a BS in a completely different field) and it killed me, even nearly two years after the fact, to see that I was literally only 0.02 below the GPA I’d needed to make in order to stay in the program. At the time of the dismissal, I had suspected it was coming and I was so ashamed that I couldn’t even stomach looking at how the numbers actually turned out... so this was my first time seeing that GPA. At this point, I’ve made peace with things and I’ve recognized that the line had to be drawn somewhere and, unfortunately, I was below it. Even if I was close, I was still below it.

Would it have been fair for me to pass that semester and continue on with a 2.248 when I was required to make a 2.25? If so, then what about someone in the same situation who’d made a 2.245? If so, what about a 2.24? What about a 2.239? The more you backpedal on that previously drawn line, the less meaningful and more arbitrary it becomes, and so at some point you might as well not even have that minimum grade/GPA to begin with. In the interest of being more fair, you’ve paradoxically ended up coming off as less fair in the eyes of those for whom you won’t make those same exceptions.

Just to add: I was more annoyed, personally, that my vet school doesn’t allow for us to have the benefit of a second chance and just drop down to the next incoming class like so many others do, at least not without jumping though tons of hoops.

 

[hizi]

oh they love to fail people and get more money.

I do wonder if those who are failing do not go to lectures and not study as hard as they should. It's hard to imagine a school will just fail students for the sake of it to make more money...

 

[deleted676737]

I do wonder if those who are failing do not go to lectures and not study as hard as they should. It's hard to imagine a school will just fail students for the sake of it to make more money...

Eh, vet school is hard. Maybe this applies to a few of the people who end up in that position but, from experience, it’s absolutely possible to attend every lecture, give it your all, and still come up short and wind up academically borderline; I earned a lot of Cs in vet school, but I worked my ass off for those Cs. I would like to assume that that is what happened the majority of Ross students who are dismissed or dropped out. At many schools, just one bad test is enough to quickly get you in some very hot water.

That’s part of the reason why I honestly don’t think that I would have minded weekly block exams like the ones being talked about here: more opportunities for grades and it also could lend a window to how well you’re absorbing the material. It could alert you to areas you need to place more study focus on.

Lupes is probably onto something with her post about the admissions procedures/criteria. Ross does have a bit of a reputation for accepting somewhat less academically qualified applicants. While many of them can still make it and be great doctors, higher attrition rates are just going to be a natural result of that, sadly. Again... vet school is hard. You can’t fully grasp just how how hard it is until you’re there. I wonder if Ross would have better outcomes if they tightened up that process.

If they were truly worried about student caliber, I’d think that’d be one of the first places they’d look.

 

[hizi]

Eh, vet school is hard. Maybe this applies to a few of the people who end up in that position but, from very personal experience, it’s absolutely possible to attend every lecture, give it your all, and still come up short and wind up academically borderline; I earned a lot of Cs in vet school, but I worked my ass off for those Cs. I would like to assume that that is what happened the majority of Ross students who are dismissed or dropped out. At many schools, just one bad test is enough to quickly get you in some very hot water.

That’s part of the reason why I honestly don’t think that I would have minded weekly block exams like the ones being talked about here: more opportunities for grades and it also could lend a window to how well you’re absorbing the material. It could alert you to areas you need to place more study focus on.

Lupes is probably onto something with her post about the admissions procedures. Ross does have a bit of a reputation for accepting somewhat less academically qualified applicants. While many of them can still make it, higher attrition rates are just going to be a natural result of that, sadly. Again... vet school is hard. You can’t fully grasp just how how hard it is until you’re there. I wonder if Ross would have better outcomes if they tightened that process up somewhat.

If they’re truly worried about student caliber, I’d think that’d be one of the first places they’d look.

I totally see your point. I guess Ross is one of those vet schools that give second chances to those who are struggling academically. I was just referring to the comment stating that Ross just fail students to make more money. I guess weekly exams are not as bad then.

 

[DVMDream]

I totally see your point. I guess Ross is one of those vet schools that give second chances to those who are struggling academically. I was just referring to the comment stating that Ross just fail students to make more money. I guess weekly exams are not as bad then.

I don't think they intentionally fail students to make more money, but I do think they accept a lot of students that they deep down know are going to struggle, thus allowing them to make money off these students that they realistically know are likely going to fail or struggle to get through.

 

[exotics&wildlifehopeful]

I do wonder if those who are failing do not go to lectures and not study as hard as they should. It's hard to imagine a school will just fail students for the sake of it to make more money...

It’s definitely part of it. I know someone who only goes to the labs and that’s it... it’s definitely frustrating. I came into ross with a 2.8 undergrad gpa, and knew it was the only school I’d get into. But it’s also frustrating that I feel like I’m doing SO WELL now only for them to completely change the way they’re structured.

 

[zoogrl29]

It’s definitely part of it. I know someone who only goes to the labs and that’s it... it’s definitely frustrating. I came into ross with a 2.8 undergrad gpa, and knew it was the only school I’d get into. But it’s also frustrating that I feel like I’m doing SO WELL now only for them to completely change the way they’re structured.

I have a 3.5 in undergrad and a 3.7 in grad school. I’m old and I know it’s the only school I’ll be able to get in to and I have. I’m set for Sept, but I have really high test anxiety. This whole thread is giving me high BP!

If you’re doing really well now, you will do really well after. Keep studying and going to class!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PetVet7]

I take way better notes and actually retain information watching the lectures on panopto. I have the attention span of a gnat so sitting through lectures doesn’t do much for me.

I like to focus on one subject at a time, so I’ll definitely have to change my study habits. I’m all for more frequent testing, because trying to remember half a semester worth of info for a test sucks.

I was against the weekly exams at first, but the more I think about it, the less terrible it sounds.